Werewolf 1.5.1 Changes Review.

ExiledKhallisi

kaorunandrak wrote: »

Ok for those complaining about the ultimate being reset, have you given any thought to it being a technical hurdle/impossibility?

For you guys who want to keep saying werewolf VS other ultimate lets look at the facts.

-No other ultimate in game gives you a different skill bar, so the possibility of a technical issue being the limitation on ultimate gain could be a valid argument. For all we know the werewolf change could actually be a separate actor being replaced with current non toggle buffs being reapplied. Many games handle their "shape shifters" in this way.

-No other single ultimate grants you a speed increase, weapon damage increase, two different DOT mechanics, self heal, stamina bonus, armor bonus, leap attack, knock down, group fear, unbalanced to enemies, self heal on attack, buff to stamina generation on heavy attacks, buff to ultimate duration, and the list continues all in one Ultimate package.

Every ultimate in-game is different, is used for different things, that is the beauty of this game your skill bar and play style is in flux because while an AOE might be good for this encounter it might be a terrible idea for the next.

I understand the want for an end all be all set up that is completely optimized for any and all content and situations but you can't expect that of this game. That is not the formula they went for when they designed this game. They are not going to give us an ultimate that over shadows every single other ultimate in game or makes other players and play styles seem completely useless(they already have a few like that and they are being looked at hopefully).

Werewolf on live is weak, it has marginal utility, marginal survivability, and is deemed by the "majority" of "vocal" players and critics to be a waste. Werewolf on PTS brings more to the table is capable of more then live. They have addressed it's weaknesses and have made it a more comparable and appealing for those wanting to explore the monster races.

If you still feel it is a complete waste of skill points then perhaps you shouldn't be using it, let alone playing this type of game. Have you given any thought that it could be super use full for a tank spec that wants to deal some damage or something to that effect? Not every skill is going to be custom built for you to your specifications with your needs and wants being considered.

They set out to improve the skill from what it is on live they did, arguing different is a waste of time damage is not the only way to improve an ability.

As far as asking for haste, yet again they said they were going to be phasing those abilities out we aren't going to get the attack speed back just like some time soon nightblades wont have haste either. You know what a better request is? Werewolf stealth why not? Or perhaps just asking them what role do they see werewolf and vampire playing in end game content so that way when they make changes we can understand where they are coming from rather than becoming hostile and whipping out our screen shots and FRAPS.

Remember they don't want players to feel forced into playing one of the monster races so your perceived nerf could also be part of that equation. You have to show more then my human form out damages my werewolf form by this many, oh yeah well my vet 1 dragonknight makes my vet 7 nightblade look like he is that kid from kindergarten that smells funny and eats paste in the corner it doesn't matter. Does your "human" form have as good of a self heal? Does it have access to a AOE fear? Does it have access to knockdowns? Is it capable of applying Multiple damage type Dots? Does it have access to a "teleport attack"? Do you have access to all those abilities in a single fight?

Meh I'm done, I like the changes I think they are good I see room for improvement in the future, we will see if it's needed. As the ability currently stands on PTS it has now found a permanent place on my DPS setup and Solo adventure setups for both my characters.

When people do the same or more DPS in human form and also have more utility...it makes the werewolf form pointless.

Thejollygreenone

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

[snip...]

them shortening the duration indicates they mean it to be a short but powerful boost, compared to the constant that vampire is. the problem is that overall it still doesn't really reflect that. being just a short "alternative"

dont get me wrong tho.. i am REALLY happy with the changes thus far, Werewolf is nothing like it once was.

Just wanted to pop back in to say that adopting the rotation you showed in the video you posted I was also able to break 1600 dps on a mammoth, thus matching the dps of my bow build, while in gear that only benefits a bow build

(I have a suspicion that if I geared for more universal stats than my particular choice of increased poison damage dealt to the target, I could beat my bow build. Werewolf in ideal gear seems to be better than bow in ideal gear, theoretically )

And I actually find the rotation to be more engaging than my bow and 2h build, and is certainly more enjoyable than my 2h build. Still not sure if I enjoy bow or werewolf more yet ^.^

Regardless, I'm one happy wolf. Just wanted to once again say thanks so much for sharing how you were able to do it, it helped a lot. Cheers.

EDIT: Holy *** I just tried again, got fully buffed up correctly with potions, hit 1963 on the same mammoths.

DAT BURST. I'm beyond content.

ExiledKhallisi

@Thejollygreenone So you are content with no DPS increase at all in werewolf form? You just like it because it looks cool?

guybrushtb16_ESO

kaorunandrak wrote: »

Every ultimate in-game is different, is used for different things, that is the beauty of this game your skill bar and play style is in flux because while an AOE might be good for this encounter it might be a terrible idea for the next.

When was the last time you ever switched out your elemental ring for another aoe?

Thejollygreenone

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

@Thejollygreenone So you are content with no DPS increase at all in werewolf form? You just like it because it looks cool?

1900 burst dps outside of stealth is higher than I'm capable in either my bow or my 2h build.

I'm content with being stronger in werewolf form. I don't know where you get this idea that 1900 is less than 1600. It was stated before my bow build was netting my 1600 dps.

I don't know why you're still trying to rope me into your conversation though, I told you I want no part in the way you discuss this topic.

risen1981

dps is fine, just wanna be a wolf longer.

ExiledKhallisi

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

@Thejollygreenone So you are content with no DPS increase at all in werewolf form? You just like it because it looks cool?

1900 burst dps outside of stealth is higher than I'm capable in either my bow or my 2h build.

I'm content with being stronger in werewolf form. I don't know where you get this idea that 1900 is less than 1600. It was stated before my bow build was netting my 1600 dps.

I don't know why you're still trying to rope me into your conversation though, I told you I want no part in the way you discuss this topic.

It's not higher for me. And many others. You must use poor combinations of skills in human form.

kaorunandrak

guybrushtb16_ESO wrote: »

kaorunandrak wrote: »

Every ultimate in-game is different, is used for different things, that is the beauty of this game your skill bar and play style is in flux because while an AOE might be good for this encounter it might be a terrible idea for the next.

When was the last time you ever switched out your elemental ring for another aoe?

Well that's easy I don't use staves at all, that is not the way I want to play the game or my characters. I made my night blade into a DAOC berserker style character and my dragonknight into Regen Brute from City of Heroes. And I will be playing my Sorc that I will be bringing up as a DAOC Thane style character. I play how I want and make changes to my skill bar as I need them to stay within my own build's concept and I have succeeded thus far. Now that is not because I am amazing and my builds are better then yours or I am a better player then anyone but because that is how the game was designed. Play how you want.

Thejollygreenone

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

@Thejollygreenone So you are content with no DPS increase at all in werewolf form? You just like it because it looks cool?

1900 burst dps outside of stealth is higher than I'm capable in either my bow or my 2h build.

I'm content with being stronger in werewolf form. I don't know where you get this idea that 1900 is less than 1600. It was stated before my bow build was netting my 1600 dps.

I don't know why you're still trying to rope me into your conversation though, I told you I want no part in the way you discuss this topic.

It's not higher for me. And many others. You must use poor combinations of skills in human form.

The arrogance is strong in this one.

We already went over that you get your numbers from sneak attack kills. You can't get a melee stealth attack off on a trial boss for a number of reasons. You can't even consistently get a bow sneak attack off. That's just the nature of how bosses get pulled.

Come with a video or even a screenshot of a mammoth kill without a stealthed wrecking blow with above 1900 dps. Unless you show me that, I have no reason to take anything you say seriously.

Hell, even if you can do 1600 dps without a sneak attack I'll concede at least that you're not full of yourself. (Since 1600dps in werewolf has already been clearly proven in a video provided earlier)

Nihil

I will say reading your first post you seemed to be analyzing and giving good insight, but you seem to have been caught up in the dps aspect of the ability in comparison to what you are doing ( which is good way normally to analyze when taking all effects into account). Going off of the DPS pic you posted for the giant, 2 of the skills in your rotation is poison injection and executioner. Poison injection was just buffed to start dealing additional damage under 50 % health in PTS, and executioner is the best stamina execution in the game. As you had a 1.3k dps through out the fight and your last full attack that I see is 602 (crit) light attack, 1552 (crit) executioner, 215 poison injection (guessing dot) 20 something poison and 30 something scorch earth, giving you an ~ 2419 damage burst at the end. The problem then in comparison to WW is that they do not have this execute (correct me if I am wrong). Their best dps posted comes from light attack / heavy attack spam which gets slightly less dps then you have shown. The question I will pose with these numbers is, does WW provide better sustain DPS out of execution phase for you?

As another player posted, we still don't know the effects of these buffs will play in PVP. With one of the best type of CC's at their disposal, and a self heal along with some descent damage it could end up being pretty strong ultimate for PVP.

Part of the problem I think is with this ultimate it can not play to everyones desired results, if they try to appease the grinder / trail runner / pvper all at the same time it will be to strong. But if they can get it to be viable and descent at the same time it can add a variable that could enhance some builds.

ExiledKhallisi

Nihil wrote: »

I will say reading your first post you seemed to be analyzing and giving good insight, but you seem to have been caught up in the dps aspect of the ability in comparison to what you are doing ( which is good way normally to analyze when taking all effects into account). Going off of the DPS pic you posted for the giant, 2 of the skills in your rotation is poison injection and executioner. Poison injection was just buffed to start dealing additional damage under 50 % health in PTS, and executioner is the best stamina execution in the game. As you had a 1.3k dps through out the fight and your last full attack that I see is 602 (crit) light attack, 1552 (crit) executioner, 215 poison injection (guessing dot) 20 something poison and 30 something scorch earth, giving you an ~ 2419 damage burst at the end. The problem then in comparison to WW is that they do not have this execute (correct me if I am wrong). Their best dps posted comes from light attack / heavy attack spam which gets slightly less dps then you have shown. The question I will pose with these numbers is, does WW provide better sustain DPS out of execution phase for you?

As another player posted, we still don't know the effects of these buffs will play in PVP. With one of the best type of CC's at their disposal, and a self heal along with some descent damage it could end up being pretty strong ultimate for PVP.

Part of the problem I think is with this ultimate it can not play to everyones desired results, if they try to appease the grinder / trail runner / pvper all at the same time it will be to strong. But if they can get it to be viable and descent at the same time it can add a variable that could enhance some builds.

That pic is from live....Note the cyrodil zone chat. The execution damage isnt anything special...as it is the skill I spam to kill. The problem with WW is the damage jsut isnt significant enough to make me want to gimp myself vs poison damage to use an ultimate thats worse than the other options I have

nicedragon

Numbers, videos about numbers, high mathematics... Emm, where is fun part ?
Oh right, it go away together with missing seconds...

But seriously if developers want do "best ultimate for stamina users" or "best in PvP" they should consider adding another daedric related skill line. Maybe Sheogorath because waging war is madness. Especially for just any chair. )

Werewolf should be fun and simple . No tactics, no stress, no timer.
Ultimate: Turn on werewolf
Devour/death: Turn off.

Simple (well I'm still don't know what technical restrictions @Castle had in mind, so maybe not simple. But even so old title like Perfect World have unlimited transform and active town guards.)

Werewolf too strong? In nature such thing doesn't exists
But in ESO do exist, so Werewolf should be dangerous only when:
- Is too close to you
- Surprise you
- You don't have Fighters Guild skill line.
- You don't have poisonous bow or arrows.
but I'm not PvPer nor "pro" player so maybe I'm missing something.

Even if You(ZOS) can't find compromise between PvP/PvE/RP you can try create zones where timer is enabled or disabled (like in Hunting Grounds).
But solving werewolf skill line by shorting time and increasing damage is worst and most discouraging option because from my point of view it looks now like fancy skill with extra visual option. Not worth time to even obtain it. "Were" but not wolf (if that sentence have any sense).

(Sorry for my Euglish)

Nihil

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

I will say reading your first post you seemed to be analyzing and giving good insight, but you seem to have been caught up in the dps aspect of the ability in comparison to what you are doing ( which is good way normally to analyze when taking all effects into account). Going off of the DPS pic you posted for the giant, 2 of the skills in your rotation is poison injection and executioner. Poison injection was just buffed to start dealing additional damage under 50 % health in PTS, and executioner is the best stamina execution in the game. As you had a 1.3k dps through out the fight and your last full attack that I see is 602 (crit) light attack, 1552 (crit) executioner, 215 poison injection (guessing dot) 20 something poison and 30 something scorch earth, giving you an ~ 2419 damage burst at the end. The problem then in comparison to WW is that they do not have this execute (correct me if I am wrong). Their best dps posted comes from light attack / heavy attack spam which gets slightly less dps then you have shown. The question I will pose with these numbers is, does WW provide better sustain DPS out of execution phase for you?

As another player posted, we still don't know the effects of these buffs will play in PVP. With one of the best type of CC's at their disposal, and a self heal along with some descent damage it could end up being pretty strong ultimate for PVP.

Part of the problem I think is with this ultimate it can not play to everyones desired results, if they try to appease the grinder / trail runner / pvper all at the same time it will be to strong. But if they can get it to be viable and descent at the same time it can add a variable that could enhance some builds.

That pic is from live....Note the cyrodil zone chat. The execution damage isnt anything special...as it is the skill I spam to kill. The problem with WW is the damage jsut isnt significant enough to make me want to gimp myself vs poison damage to use an ultimate thats worse than the other options I have

I missed that part my bad, was focused on the combat log, so you will probably see a bit of an increase in dps. For the execution I did say it was the best stamina executions, there are some great magicka ones, just not so many stamina ones. The execution phase can drastically alters one dps ( along with sneak attack opener) in that last full attack that I calculated you knocked out ~18 % of the giants health in what is probably close to 1 second. What this means is close to 10 seconds took you to take out the rest of the 11k ish hp (equating to over 1.1k dps but less then 1.2k dps, time based off of the 11 seconds next to the dps meter). This is very close to the WW dps talked about in this thread (lower in some cases).

I personally don't think this will be the ultimate of choice for trials or most pve situations, partially due to so much damage coming from bleed, and how ineffective bleed is against some enemies.

The dps/utility you get from werewolf might not be a benefit to your build in comparison to the weakness, but the potential with the current stats do appear to be their. I see it having an effect on pvp, with a fear that other classes then NB can use, possible pushing shield blocking players out of their standard or veil of blades making it so other team mates can do more damage to them. They also have a heal (which morph could add more dps) which some stamina builds are lacking in pvp. For the pvp side of this we will sadly have to wait to see it in launch tho as I doubt people will get extensive testing in the PTS.

I am guessing your other ultimate of choice is storm atronoch or negate?

ExiledKhallisi

Nihil wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

I will say reading your first post you seemed to be analyzing and giving good insight, but you seem to have been caught up in the dps aspect of the ability in comparison to what you are doing ( which is good way normally to analyze when taking all effects into account). Going off of the DPS pic you posted for the giant, 2 of the skills in your rotation is poison injection and executioner. Poison injection was just buffed to start dealing additional damage under 50 % health in PTS, and executioner is the best stamina execution in the game. As you had a 1.3k dps through out the fight and your last full attack that I see is 602 (crit) light attack, 1552 (crit) executioner, 215 poison injection (guessing dot) 20 something poison and 30 something scorch earth, giving you an ~ 2419 damage burst at the end. The problem then in comparison to WW is that they do not have this execute (correct me if I am wrong). Their best dps posted comes from light attack / heavy attack spam which gets slightly less dps then you have shown. The question I will pose with these numbers is, does WW provide better sustain DPS out of execution phase for you?

As another player posted, we still don't know the effects of these buffs will play in PVP. With one of the best type of CC's at their disposal, and a self heal along with some descent damage it could end up being pretty strong ultimate for PVP.

Part of the problem I think is with this ultimate it can not play to everyones desired results, if they try to appease the grinder / trail runner / pvper all at the same time it will be to strong. But if they can get it to be viable and descent at the same time it can add a variable that could enhance some builds.

That pic is from live....Note the cyrodil zone chat. The execution damage isnt anything special...as it is the skill I spam to kill. The problem with WW is the damage jsut isnt significant enough to make me want to gimp myself vs poison damage to use an ultimate thats worse than the other options I have

I missed that part my bad, was focused on the combat log, so you will probably see a bit of an increase in dps. For the execution I did say it was the best stamina executions, there are some great magicka ones, just not so many stamina ones. The execution phase can drastically alters one dps ( along with sneak attack opener) in that last full attack that I calculated you knocked out ~18 % of the giants health in what is probably close to 1 second. What this means is close to 10 seconds took you to take out the rest of the 11k ish hp (equating to over 1.1k dps but less then 1.2k dps, time based off of the 11 seconds next to the dps meter). This is very close to the WW dps talked about in this thread (lower in some cases).

I personally don't think this will be the ultimate of choice for trials or most pve situations, partially due to so much damage coming from bleed, and how ineffective bleed is against some enemies.

The dps/utility you get from werewolf might not be a benefit to your build in comparison to the weakness, but the potential with the current stats do appear to be their. I see it having an effect on pvp, with a fear that other classes then NB can use, possible pushing shield blocking players out of their standard or veil of blades making it so other team mates can do more damage to them. They also have a heal (which morph could add more dps) which some stamina builds are lacking in pvp. For the pvp side of this we will sadly have to wait to see it in launch tho as I doubt people will get extensive testing in the PTS.

I am guessing your other ultimate of choice is storm atronoch or negate?

I wish more people were in PTS Cyrodil.

(btw my other choices would be flawless dawnbreaker or negate Atranoch is terrible imho.)

But I fear the worst for werewolves.. I believe these buffs are a crappy book with an attention grabbing cover. Nothing more.

I will be 100% honest.

The highest I have ever sustained in a trials run was 1.5k But I was drinking potions every chance I got them and using pretty much the same roation I am here. Lets get hypothetical... if this was 1.5.1 live and I were to have removed flawless dawnbreaker from my bar and put Werewolf there. Not only would I drop DPS during the transformation... But I would not recover the total total dps loss during my transformation. There is simply no benefit to being a werewolf in PVE.

As ar as PVP is concerned.... the fear you mention brings up a good point.... but with the newly nerfed time limit.... and guaranteed lack of corpses to feed off of in cyrodil (lets face it, you wont have time in large scale combat to start feeding with other enemies around not to mention, people will release corpses and they will poof on you. If I died to a werewolf and saw him feeding on me... i would release to.)

I could see it being beneficial if they doubled or tripled the time limit in werewolf form.

Nihil

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

I will say reading your first post you seemed to be analyzing and giving good insight, but you seem to have been caught up in the dps aspect of the ability in comparison to what you are doing ( which is good way normally to analyze when taking all effects into account). Going off of the DPS pic you posted for the giant, 2 of the skills in your rotation is poison injection and executioner. Poison injection was just buffed to start dealing additional damage under 50 % health in PTS, and executioner is the best stamina execution in the game. As you had a 1.3k dps through out the fight and your last full attack that I see is 602 (crit) light attack, 1552 (crit) executioner, 215 poison injection (guessing dot) 20 something poison and 30 something scorch earth, giving you an ~ 2419 damage burst at the end. The problem then in comparison to WW is that they do not have this execute (correct me if I am wrong). Their best dps posted comes from light attack / heavy attack spam which gets slightly less dps then you have shown. The question I will pose with these numbers is, does WW provide better sustain DPS out of execution phase for you?

As another player posted, we still don't know the effects of these buffs will play in PVP. With one of the best type of CC's at their disposal, and a self heal along with some descent damage it could end up being pretty strong ultimate for PVP.

Part of the problem I think is with this ultimate it can not play to everyones desired results, if they try to appease the grinder / trail runner / pvper all at the same time it will be to strong. But if they can get it to be viable and descent at the same time it can add a variable that could enhance some builds.

That pic is from live....Note the cyrodil zone chat. The execution damage isnt anything special...as it is the skill I spam to kill. The problem with WW is the damage jsut isnt significant enough to make me want to gimp myself vs poison damage to use an ultimate thats worse than the other options I have

I missed that part my bad, was focused on the combat log, so you will probably see a bit of an increase in dps. For the execution I did say it was the best stamina executions, there are some great magicka ones, just not so many stamina ones. The execution phase can drastically alters one dps ( along with sneak attack opener) in that last full attack that I calculated you knocked out ~18 % of the giants health in what is probably close to 1 second. What this means is close to 10 seconds took you to take out the rest of the 11k ish hp (equating to over 1.1k dps but less then 1.2k dps, time based off of the 11 seconds next to the dps meter). This is very close to the WW dps talked about in this thread (lower in some cases).

I personally don't think this will be the ultimate of choice for trials or most pve situations, partially due to so much damage coming from bleed, and how ineffective bleed is against some enemies.

The dps/utility you get from werewolf might not be a benefit to your build in comparison to the weakness, but the potential with the current stats do appear to be their. I see it having an effect on pvp, with a fear that other classes then NB can use, possible pushing shield blocking players out of their standard or veil of blades making it so other team mates can do more damage to them. They also have a heal (which morph could add more dps) which some stamina builds are lacking in pvp. For the pvp side of this we will sadly have to wait to see it in launch tho as I doubt people will get extensive testing in the PTS.

I am guessing your other ultimate of choice is storm atronoch or negate?

I wish more people were in PTS Cyrodil.

(btw my other choices would be flawless dawnbreaker or negate Atranoch is terrible imho.)

But I fear the worst for werewolves.. I believe these buffs are a crappy book with an attention grabbing cover. Nothing more.

I will be 100% honest.

The highest I have ever sustained in a trials run was 1.5k But I was drinking potions every chance I got them and using pretty much the same roation I am here. Lets get hypothetical... if this was 1.5.1 live and I were to have removed flawless dawnbreaker from my bar and put Werewolf there. Not only would I drop DPS during the transformation... But I would not recover the total total dps loss during my transformation. There is simply no benefit to being a werewolf in PVE.

As ar as PVP is concerned.... the fear you mention brings up a good point.... but with the newly nerfed time limit.... and guaranteed lack of corpses to feed off of in cyrodil (lets face it, you wont have time in large scale combat to start feeding with other enemies around not to mention, people will release corpses and they will poof on you. If I died to a werewolf and saw him feeding on me... i would release to.)

I could see it being beneficial if they doubled or tripled the time limit in werewolf form.

I was just trying to figure out what you use on your bow bar as far as I could tell that was primarily for putting on DoT's and then switching to your GS bar for your main DPS, unless you have a spam skill on your bow bar that is ( I haven't ever seen your combat log at the beginning of the fight so I am not sure how long you keep your bow out). My personal favorite ultimate is negate. I kind of figured transforming during the fight would net a dps loss, thus why I was trying to figure out your dps at the beginning of the fight. What I was thinking is if you enter the fight already in WW form and if the dps is good enough then it could possible lead to an increase in over all dps (although probably not much), for you it doesn't sound like it would be the case.

I agree that PVE won't see to much use with the ultimate (maybe templars?) as most classes can get close to the sustain of WW without it. PVP is where I think we might see it, but like you said the timer could be a major draw back. It is literally what the WW can do in ~ 30 seconds that will determine how well it works.

I am hoping that they will be watching how it will actually play out, honestly it will be best if they start off a little weaker and buff it again later on, as that will cause a lot less people crying "nerf". If it isn't working it would be a lot easier to add some time in WW form, rather then take time away and have everyone coming to the forums complaining.

ExiledKhallisi

Nihil wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

I will say reading your first post you seemed to be analyzing and giving good insight, but you seem to have been caught up in the dps aspect of the ability in comparison to what you are doing ( which is good way normally to analyze when taking all effects into account). Going off of the DPS pic you posted for the giant, 2 of the skills in your rotation is poison injection and executioner. Poison injection was just buffed to start dealing additional damage under 50 % health in PTS, and executioner is the best stamina execution in the game. As you had a 1.3k dps through out the fight and your last full attack that I see is 602 (crit) light attack, 1552 (crit) executioner, 215 poison injection (guessing dot) 20 something poison and 30 something scorch earth, giving you an ~ 2419 damage burst at the end. The problem then in comparison to WW is that they do not have this execute (correct me if I am wrong). Their best dps posted comes from light attack / heavy attack spam which gets slightly less dps then you have shown. The question I will pose with these numbers is, does WW provide better sustain DPS out of execution phase for you?

As another player posted, we still don't know the effects of these buffs will play in PVP. With one of the best type of CC's at their disposal, and a self heal along with some descent damage it could end up being pretty strong ultimate for PVP.

Part of the problem I think is with this ultimate it can not play to everyones desired results, if they try to appease the grinder / trail runner / pvper all at the same time it will be to strong. But if they can get it to be viable and descent at the same time it can add a variable that could enhance some builds.

That pic is from live....Note the cyrodil zone chat. The execution damage isnt anything special...as it is the skill I spam to kill. The problem with WW is the damage jsut isnt significant enough to make me want to gimp myself vs poison damage to use an ultimate thats worse than the other options I have

I missed that part my bad, was focused on the combat log, so you will probably see a bit of an increase in dps. For the execution I did say it was the best stamina executions, there are some great magicka ones, just not so many stamina ones. The execution phase can drastically alters one dps ( along with sneak attack opener) in that last full attack that I calculated you knocked out ~18 % of the giants health in what is probably close to 1 second. What this means is close to 10 seconds took you to take out the rest of the 11k ish hp (equating to over 1.1k dps but less then 1.2k dps, time based off of the 11 seconds next to the dps meter). This is very close to the WW dps talked about in this thread (lower in some cases).

I personally don't think this will be the ultimate of choice for trials or most pve situations, partially due to so much damage coming from bleed, and how ineffective bleed is against some enemies.

The dps/utility you get from werewolf might not be a benefit to your build in comparison to the weakness, but the potential with the current stats do appear to be their. I see it having an effect on pvp, with a fear that other classes then NB can use, possible pushing shield blocking players out of their standard or veil of blades making it so other team mates can do more damage to them. They also have a heal (which morph could add more dps) which some stamina builds are lacking in pvp. For the pvp side of this we will sadly have to wait to see it in launch tho as I doubt people will get extensive testing in the PTS.

I am guessing your other ultimate of choice is storm atronoch or negate?

I wish more people were in PTS Cyrodil.

(btw my other choices would be flawless dawnbreaker or negate Atranoch is terrible imho.)

But I fear the worst for werewolves.. I believe these buffs are a crappy book with an attention grabbing cover. Nothing more.

I will be 100% honest.

The highest I have ever sustained in a trials run was 1.5k But I was drinking potions every chance I got them and using pretty much the same roation I am here. Lets get hypothetical... if this was 1.5.1 live and I were to have removed flawless dawnbreaker from my bar and put Werewolf there. Not only would I drop DPS during the transformation... But I would not recover the total total dps loss during my transformation. There is simply no benefit to being a werewolf in PVE.

As ar as PVP is concerned.... the fear you mention brings up a good point.... but with the newly nerfed time limit.... and guaranteed lack of corpses to feed off of in cyrodil (lets face it, you wont have time in large scale combat to start feeding with other enemies around not to mention, people will release corpses and they will poof on you. If I died to a werewolf and saw him feeding on me... i would release to.)

I could see it being beneficial if they doubled or tripled the time limit in werewolf form.

I was just trying to figure out what you use on your bow bar as far as I could tell that was primarily for putting on DoT's and then switching to your GS bar for your main DPS, unless you have a spam skill on your bow bar that is ( I haven't ever seen your combat log at the beginning of the fight so I am not sure how long you keep your bow out). My personal favorite ultimate is negate. I kind of figured transforming during the fight would net a dps loss, thus why I was trying to figure out your dps at the beginning of the fight. What I was thinking is if you enter the fight already in WW form and if the dps is good enough then it could possible lead to an increase in over all dps (although probably not much), for you it doesn't sound like it would be the case.

I agree that PVE won't see to much use with the ultimate (maybe templars?) as most classes can get close to the sustain of WW without it. PVP is where I think we might see it, but like you said the timer could be a major draw back. It is literally what the WW can do in ~ 30 seconds that will determine how well it works.

I am hoping that they will be watching how it will actually play out, honestly it will be best if they start off a little weaker and buff it again later on, as that will cause a lot less people crying "nerf". If it isn't working it would be a lot easier to add some time in WW form, rather then take time away and have everyone coming to the forums complaining.

I agree, good points.

For the record..

I dont use snipe or wrecking blow... their casts times net DPS LOSS. I stack dots Acid SPray/Poison Arrow/Scorched Earth (on pts just using these 3 skills once does around 800DPS) and then I switch to two hand and weave executioner with light attacks... I even use executioner early in the fight... why? because it's instant.

I am glad someone else at least somewhat agree's the time limit is too small. I feel starting in WW form still wont be worth it. It would be marginal.

draeganb16_ESO

As told before, this is the lack of corpse in PvP and the ultimate loss that will make the werewolf almost useless in Cyrodill. And the DPS from werewolf to humain is lower, why transform except for the RP to get killed by a perma-blocking sorcerer ?

ZOS have to do something about that before the 1.5 comes live

Nihil

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

I will say reading your first post you seemed to be analyzing and giving good insight, but you seem to have been caught up in the dps aspect of the ability in comparison to what you are doing ( which is good way normally to analyze when taking all effects into account). Going off of the DPS pic you posted for the giant, 2 of the skills in your rotation is poison injection and executioner. Poison injection was just buffed to start dealing additional damage under 50 % health in PTS, and executioner is the best stamina execution in the game. As you had a 1.3k dps through out the fight and your last full attack that I see is 602 (crit) light attack, 1552 (crit) executioner, 215 poison injection (guessing dot) 20 something poison and 30 something scorch earth, giving you an ~ 2419 damage burst at the end. The problem then in comparison to WW is that they do not have this execute (correct me if I am wrong). Their best dps posted comes from light attack / heavy attack spam which gets slightly less dps then you have shown. The question I will pose with these numbers is, does WW provide better sustain DPS out of execution phase for you?

As another player posted, we still don't know the effects of these buffs will play in PVP. With one of the best type of CC's at their disposal, and a self heal along with some descent damage it could end up being pretty strong ultimate for PVP.

Part of the problem I think is with this ultimate it can not play to everyones desired results, if they try to appease the grinder / trail runner / pvper all at the same time it will be to strong. But if they can get it to be viable and descent at the same time it can add a variable that could enhance some builds.

That pic is from live....Note the cyrodil zone chat. The execution damage isnt anything special...as it is the skill I spam to kill. The problem with WW is the damage jsut isnt significant enough to make me want to gimp myself vs poison damage to use an ultimate thats worse than the other options I have

I missed that part my bad, was focused on the combat log, so you will probably see a bit of an increase in dps. For the execution I did say it was the best stamina executions, there are some great magicka ones, just not so many stamina ones. The execution phase can drastically alters one dps ( along with sneak attack opener) in that last full attack that I calculated you knocked out ~18 % of the giants health in what is probably close to 1 second. What this means is close to 10 seconds took you to take out the rest of the 11k ish hp (equating to over 1.1k dps but less then 1.2k dps, time based off of the 11 seconds next to the dps meter). This is very close to the WW dps talked about in this thread (lower in some cases).

I personally don't think this will be the ultimate of choice for trials or most pve situations, partially due to so much damage coming from bleed, and how ineffective bleed is against some enemies.

The dps/utility you get from werewolf might not be a benefit to your build in comparison to the weakness, but the potential with the current stats do appear to be their. I see it having an effect on pvp, with a fear that other classes then NB can use, possible pushing shield blocking players out of their standard or veil of blades making it so other team mates can do more damage to them. They also have a heal (which morph could add more dps) which some stamina builds are lacking in pvp. For the pvp side of this we will sadly have to wait to see it in launch tho as I doubt people will get extensive testing in the PTS.

I am guessing your other ultimate of choice is storm atronoch or negate?

I wish more people were in PTS Cyrodil.

(btw my other choices would be flawless dawnbreaker or negate Atranoch is terrible imho.)

But I fear the worst for werewolves.. I believe these buffs are a crappy book with an attention grabbing cover. Nothing more.

I will be 100% honest.

The highest I have ever sustained in a trials run was 1.5k But I was drinking potions every chance I got them and using pretty much the same roation I am here. Lets get hypothetical... if this was 1.5.1 live and I were to have removed flawless dawnbreaker from my bar and put Werewolf there. Not only would I drop DPS during the transformation... But I would not recover the total total dps loss during my transformation. There is simply no benefit to being a werewolf in PVE.

As ar as PVP is concerned.... the fear you mention brings up a good point.... but with the newly nerfed time limit.... and guaranteed lack of corpses to feed off of in cyrodil (lets face it, you wont have time in large scale combat to start feeding with other enemies around not to mention, people will release corpses and they will poof on you. If I died to a werewolf and saw him feeding on me... i would release to.)

I could see it being beneficial if they doubled or tripled the time limit in werewolf form.

I was just trying to figure out what you use on your bow bar as far as I could tell that was primarily for putting on DoT's and then switching to your GS bar for your main DPS, unless you have a spam skill on your bow bar that is ( I haven't ever seen your combat log at the beginning of the fight so I am not sure how long you keep your bow out). My personal favorite ultimate is negate. I kind of figured transforming during the fight would net a dps loss, thus why I was trying to figure out your dps at the beginning of the fight. What I was thinking is if you enter the fight already in WW form and if the dps is good enough then it could possible lead to an increase in over all dps (although probably not much), for you it doesn't sound like it would be the case.

I agree that PVE won't see to much use with the ultimate (maybe templars?) as most classes can get close to the sustain of WW without it. PVP is where I think we might see it, but like you said the timer could be a major draw back. It is literally what the WW can do in ~ 30 seconds that will determine how well it works.

I am hoping that they will be watching how it will actually play out, honestly it will be best if they start off a little weaker and buff it again later on, as that will cause a lot less people crying "nerf". If it isn't working it would be a lot easier to add some time in WW form, rather then take time away and have everyone coming to the forums complaining.

I agree, good points.

For the record..

I dont use snipe or wrecking blow... their casts times net DPS LOSS. I stack dots Acid SPray/Poison Arrow/Scorched Earth (on pts just using these 3 skills once does around 800DPS) and then I switch to two hand and weave executioner with light attacks... I even use executioner early in the fight... why? because it's instant.

I am glad someone else at least somewhat agree's the time limit is too small. I feel starting in WW form still wont be worth it. It would be marginal.

A lot of times I try to see things ( or read about when I can't / don't have the time to test) before I make a full judgment call, 30 seconds doesn't sound like it will be enough. Without actual testing tho we wont be able to see how much mayham / damage someone can cause in that time (in pvp). I personally would prefer just keeping ultimate when you leave WW form, as being stuck in WW to long could also be a liability ( I don't know if you can force leave WW form).

I am not the biggest fan of snipe or wrecking blow either, I hate being stuck in an animation that I might have to break to avoid attacks if needed (and they tend to not be compariable dps to a lot of instant cast moves, as you mentioned).

edit: in comparison to the dps you are already pulling off it doesn't sound like it will be beneficial to change before the fight. NB probably wont see much use for it either with their buffed death stroke. I do wonder about templars now tho, as a lot of posts I have read makes it sound like they don't have a reliable sustain they can fall back on... I personally haven't even played a low lvl templar so I have no clue at all >.>

Lykanus

nicedragon wrote: »

But solving werewolf skill line by shorting time and increasing damage is worst and most discouraging option because from my point of view it looks now like fancy skill with extra visual option. Not worth time to even obtain it. "Were" but not wolf (if that sentence have any sense).

This, and have you ever tested how the "wolf" feels now?
Solo PvE is a stressful, unfun run from one devour to another, thats definiately not fun at all.
And then you should play a Group encounter with the new Werewolf, yes the devs need to try to play some PvE Group dungeons, Trials and PvP. Its impossible with that implementation.
Either stop the timer while hitting mobs/enemy players, or increase the initial time to 1min 30sec. If really necessary increase the Ultimate Cost again a little bit but definitely give more room to fit into a group.

To those mathematics:
Have you ever recorded to downtime of no damage while devouring into your "dps-records"? Cause thats what happens if you have to compare it to a full-time-human build (and thats only solo possible, you cant stay forever wolf without devour, so for comparsion you need count devour no-dmg-time into your records). You cannot compare a full time always available without complications build 1vs1 with a heavy time limited build with downsides and restrictions.

Nihil wrote: »

I agree that PVE won't see to much use with the ultimate (maybe templars?) as most classes can get close to the sustain of WW without it. PVP is where I think we might see it, but like you said the timer could be a major draw back. It is literally what the WW can do in ~ 30 seconds that will determine how well it works.

I am hoping that they will be watching how it will actually play out, honestly it will be best if they start off a little weaker and buff it again later on, as that will cause a lot less people crying "nerf". If it isn't working it would be a lot easier to add some time in WW form, rather then take time away and have everyone coming to the forums complaining.

I can _guarantee_ you that no one will take you as a WW into any serious group pve, pvp part is even worse.
You just think about the raw damage numbers, but the truth is what you need in PvP is to pick your fights, that needs time. Secondly when you turn in the battlefield you're a prominent target, poison damage is in pvp heavily in regards of bow users. Silver shards hits hard and you're only melee as a werewolf what is always already a challenge in pvp. The enemy also exactly knows what 5 abilities you've got available and you also cant stealth or pick your 1on1's. Not to mention that you need to build up after your werewolf your ultimate, while other build it up while using the ultimate.So not even a chance in PvP to being used. Except in a suicide run trying to kill a glass-canon light armor wearer.
The werewolf is for hunting in groups, in packs - thats exactly not possible.

You dont need to wait out watching how it will play out, its already obvious that the wolf needs more time, be more group friendly and a more tactical usage.To get that tactical usage out of him you need to make use of the different ablities and use them at the correct time...well if you would have the time to wait for it.
It will be possible if they correct the time problems and the depending grouping ability with it to actually see the Werewolf being used, the damage numbers can be counted as "okay" now, he surely doesnt needs to be overpowered, but the serious issue is the time and usage in groups/pvp,
If you sum it up he wont be used in any group PvE and PvP with the current 1.5.1 build..so whats left, well solo play but there its stressful play now that also doesnt makes fun running with a very short time limit that stresses a lot while you could use a free of limits other ultimate what doesnt brings downsides and doesnt needs a full skill line, the choice the people will make is clear.

omy_mkeb17_ESO

Regarding the ultimate points reset when u get back in human form: FIX IT!

Hypertionb14_ESO

omy_mkeb17_ESO wrote: »

Regarding the ultimate points reset when u get back in human form: FIX IT!

actually i would say this would be a nice potential buff.

would allow more WW time in longer fights by allowing us to retransform.

im sure i am drastically underthinking the balance implications but it seems like simply letting us keep our ult would be a ideal middle ground between those that want it infinitly via toggle and those who just want it to have a minute long duration..

ExiledKhallisi

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Penny for your thoughts?

Please rethink the terrible nerf to werewolf time.
After extensive testing us players have determined there is no real benefit to being a werewolf in both pve or pvp. We suffer a DPS loss during upkeep(devour) and transformation. The low time makes it un fun due to the stress of constantly having to feed. The DPS also can be matched in human form. Which makes there werwolf transform not feel very Ultimatey.

draeganb16_ESO

As I said in another topic about timer and pack leader :
"...A pack leader should be a PACK LEADER. They are here to lead the pack (of berzerks), to help them stay coordinated. By coordinated, I mean stay in werewolf form as long as the leader is nearby (and the fight also).
In the curent mechanic (1.5.1), you force packs to have at least 2 Pack leaders to sustain themself.

Why not giving the buff (Allies nearby add 4 to their Werewolf Timer whenever Ultimate is rewarded.) to the pack leader himself or make the timer stop as long as another werewolf is nearby the pack leader ? That would force Werewolf to remain as a pack if they want to be effective."

risen1981

draeganb16_ESO wrote: »

As I said in another topic about timer and pack leader :
"...A pack leader should be a PACK LEADER. They are here to lead the pack (of berzerks), to help them stay coordinated. By coordinated, I mean stay in werewolf form as long as the leader is nearby (and the fight also).
In the curent mechanic (1.5.1), you force packs to have at least 2 Pack leaders to sustain themself.

Why not giving the buff (Allies nearby add 4 to their Werewolf Timer whenever Ultimate is rewarded.) to the pack leader himself or make the timer stop as long as another werewolf is nearby the pack leader ? That would force Werewolf to remain as a pack if they want to be effective."

I really like the idea with the pack leader.. really cool ...

Thejollygreenone

draeganb16_ESO wrote: »

As I said in another topic about timer and pack leader :
"...A pack leader should be a PACK LEADER. They are here to lead the pack (of berzerks), to help them stay coordinated. By coordinated, I mean stay in werewolf form as long as the leader is nearby (and the fight also).
In the curent mechanic (1.5.1), you force packs to have at least 2 Pack leaders to sustain themself.

Why not giving the buff (Allies nearby add 4 to their Werewolf Timer whenever Ultimate is rewarded.) to the pack leader himself or make the timer stop as long as another werewolf is nearby the pack leader ? That would force Werewolf to remain as a pack if they want to be effective."

I dont really think both is needed. There would be a lot of extra time generated from the ultimate generated. Like, a lot. Allowing the Pack Leader to benefit from his own morph would be enough, IMO.

Nihil

Lykanus wrote: »

nicedragon wrote: »

But solving werewolf skill line by shorting time and increasing damage is worst and most discouraging option because from my point of view it looks now like fancy skill with extra visual option. Not worth time to even obtain it. "Were" but not wolf (if that sentence have any sense).

This, and have you ever tested how the "wolf" feels now?
Solo PvE is a stressful, unfun run from one devour to another, thats definiately not fun at all.
And then you should play a Group encounter with the new Werewolf, yes the devs need to try to play some PvE Group dungeons, Trials and PvP. Its impossible with that implementation.
Either stop the timer while hitting mobs/enemy players, or increase the initial time to 1min 30sec. If really necessary increase the Ultimate Cost again a little bit but definitely give more room to fit into a group.

To those mathematics:
Have you ever recorded to downtime of no damage while devouring into your "dps-records"? Cause thats what happens if you have to compare it to a full-time-human build (and thats only solo possible, you cant stay forever wolf without devour, so for comparsion you need count devour no-dmg-time into your records). You cannot compare a full time always available without complications build 1vs1 with a heavy time limited build with downsides and restrictions.

Nihil wrote: »

I agree that PVE won't see to much use with the ultimate (maybe templars?) as most classes can get close to the sustain of WW without it. PVP is where I think we might see it, but like you said the timer could be a major draw back. It is literally what the WW can do in ~ 30 seconds that will determine how well it works.

I am hoping that they will be watching how it will actually play out, honestly it will be best if they start off a little weaker and buff it again later on, as that will cause a lot less people crying "nerf". If it isn't working it would be a lot easier to add some time in WW form, rather then take time away and have everyone coming to the forums complaining.

I can _guarantee_ you that no one will take you as a WW into any serious group pve, pvp part is even worse.
You just think about the raw damage numbers, but the truth is what you need in PvP is to pick your fights, that needs time. Secondly when you turn in the battlefield you're a prominent target, poison damage is in pvp heavily in regards of bow users. Silver shards hits hard and you're only melee as a werewolf what is always already a challenge in pvp. The enemy also exactly knows what 5 abilities you've got available and you also cant stealth or pick your 1on1's. Not to mention that you need to build up after your werewolf your ultimate, while other build it up while using the ultimate.So not even a chance in PvP to being used. Except in a suicide run trying to kill a glass-canon light armor wearer.
The werewolf is for hunting in groups, in packs - thats exactly not possible.

You dont need to wait out watching how it will play out, its already obvious that the wolf needs more time, be more group friendly and a more tactical usage.To get that tactical usage out of him you need to make use of the different ablities and use them at the correct time...well if you would have the time to wait for it.
It will be possible if they correct the time problems and the depending grouping ability with it to actually see the Werewolf being used, the damage numbers can be counted as "okay" now, he surely doesnt needs to be overpowered, but the serious issue is the time and usage in groups/pvp,
If you sum it up he wont be used in any group PvE and PvP with the current 1.5.1 build..so whats left, well solo play but there its stressful play now that also doesnt makes fun running with a very short time limit that stresses a lot while you could use a free of limits other ultimate what doesnt brings downsides and doesnt needs a full skill line, the choice the people will make is clear.

While you might be right that no one would take you into a group based on if you are using WW or not, that doesn't mean they are correct (people will isolate other builds that they fear might under perform even if they don't). While I have agreed that exiled build would not benefit much from WW, that doesn't mean no build will. As this is only day 4 on the PTS few people have probably tested different armor sets to see if they can gain an increase in dps, and most tests have been done out of group.

Theorycrafting idea: a nightblade who uses haste before the morph has shown that he can obtain about 1.6k dps on a mammoth while hast lasts. His video showed he got 11 light / heavy attacks in 4 seconds. In a group this player will most likely have the DK attack buff (name fleets my mind at the moment) so they will also be dealing flame damage with each of those normal attacks. Looking also at a new armor set (seen in this thread http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/135812/1-5-new-undaunted-gear-rewards#latest ) Each of those attacks could deal 72 more damage after activating an ability that cost's magicka ( their heal cost magicka, which a morph also adds weapon damage). As WW can have some of the fastest light attacks this set could be very beneficial while in WW form ( and still have some use outside of WW form). With other dropped sets now having randomized traits their could be more combinations that I haven't though of yet either.

Without actual testing, very extensive, we won't be able to tell for sure if their is (and how many) viable builds are out there. A lot of builds were not created with in the beginning of the game and took a while for players to work out combinations for.

For PVP we still aren't sure yet, 1.5.1 is going to be a whole new playing feel. With new armor sets gaining viability, burst damage from stealth being drastically reduced (thus some people might stop using bows), Harness magic is getting hit hard and reducing the sustain for a lot of magicka builds that relied on it to keep casting. We also haven't had testing to see how different abilities will synergize and how players can work with each other. If you hit some one with claws of anguish can you also still proc the disease debuff and if some one hits them with lethal arrow can you in theory cut their healing down to close to 0? What you say might turn out to be true, but theory crafting and hypothesizing need to be tested before you can make the claims that they won't work at all. ( I have tried to normal stick away from dps talk when thinking about PVP as there are a ton more factors associated in pvp then just damage, utility imo is king.)

One comment I 100 % agree with, due to WW only being melee they might need to increase their durability. I don't remember which thread I read it in now, but I read that people are only getting 100 more armor when they transform. There could be an argument made that this is to small. As WW are front line fighters with set skills, none of which increase armor or spell resistance and most skills that do raise these stats have a very short duration (thus can't really pre cast), their transformed form should have increased armor / spell resistance or some other means to mitigate damage being dealt.

Thejollygreenone

Nihil wrote: »

Lykanus wrote: »

nicedragon wrote: »

But solving werewolf skill line by shorting time and increasing damage is worst and most discouraging option because from my point of view it looks now like fancy skill with extra visual option. Not worth time to even obtain it. "Were" but not wolf (if that sentence have any sense).

This, and have you ever tested how the "wolf" feels now?
Solo PvE is a stressful, unfun run from one devour to another, thats definiately not fun at all.
And then you should play a Group encounter with the new Werewolf, yes the devs need to try to play some PvE Group dungeons, Trials and PvP. Its impossible with that implementation.
Either stop the timer while hitting mobs/enemy players, or increase the initial time to 1min 30sec. If really necessary increase the Ultimate Cost again a little bit but definitely give more room to fit into a group.

To those mathematics:
Have you ever recorded to downtime of no damage while devouring into your "dps-records"? Cause thats what happens if you have to compare it to a full-time-human build (and thats only solo possible, you cant stay forever wolf without devour, so for comparsion you need count devour no-dmg-time into your records). You cannot compare a full time always available without complications build 1vs1 with a heavy time limited build with downsides and restrictions.

Nihil wrote: »

I agree that PVE won't see to much use with the ultimate (maybe templars?) as most classes can get close to the sustain of WW without it. PVP is where I think we might see it, but like you said the timer could be a major draw back. It is literally what the WW can do in ~ 30 seconds that will determine how well it works.

I am hoping that they will be watching how it will actually play out, honestly it will be best if they start off a little weaker and buff it again later on, as that will cause a lot less people crying "nerf". If it isn't working it would be a lot easier to add some time in WW form, rather then take time away and have everyone coming to the forums complaining.

I can _guarantee_ you that no one will take you as a WW into any serious group pve, pvp part is even worse.
You just think about the raw damage numbers, but the truth is what you need in PvP is to pick your fights, that needs time. Secondly when you turn in the battlefield you're a prominent target, poison damage is in pvp heavily in regards of bow users. Silver shards hits hard and you're only melee as a werewolf what is always already a challenge in pvp. The enemy also exactly knows what 5 abilities you've got available and you also cant stealth or pick your 1on1's. Not to mention that you need to build up after your werewolf your ultimate, while other build it up while using the ultimate.So not even a chance in PvP to being used. Except in a suicide run trying to kill a glass-canon light armor wearer.
The werewolf is for hunting in groups, in packs - thats exactly not possible.

You dont need to wait out watching how it will play out, its already obvious that the wolf needs more time, be more group friendly and a more tactical usage.To get that tactical usage out of him you need to make use of the different ablities and use them at the correct time...well if you would have the time to wait for it.
It will be possible if they correct the time problems and the depending grouping ability with it to actually see the Werewolf being used, the damage numbers can be counted as "okay" now, he surely doesnt needs to be overpowered, but the serious issue is the time and usage in groups/pvp,
If you sum it up he wont be used in any group PvE and PvP with the current 1.5.1 build..so whats left, well solo play but there its stressful play now that also doesnt makes fun running with a very short time limit that stresses a lot while you could use a free of limits other ultimate what doesnt brings downsides and doesnt needs a full skill line, the choice the people will make is clear.

[snip...]

One comment I 100 % agree with, due to WW only being melee they might need to increase their durability. I don't remember which thread I read it in now, but I read that people are only getting 100 more armor when they transform. There could be an argument made that this is to small. As WW are front line fighters with set skills, none of which increase armor or spell resistance and most skills that do raise these stats have a very short duration (thus can't really pre cast), their transformed form should have increased armor / spell resistance or some other means to mitigate damage being dealt.

THIS! The bonuses given in werewolf form are all flat values, and small flat values at that. This really makes the base werewolf form feel pretty underwhelming. Change the max stamina and armor increase to percentages instead, then we've got some interesting gear choices at hand.

Darkonflare15

The moral of the story when it comes to buffs and nerfs everybody is going to be unhappy about the good things and the bad things. I can it see now when they do changes for the classes in 1.6. Somebody going complain that they are losing dps or that another class is getting too powerful. My ultimate is useless now or now this skill is useless now but the skill that was useless is now is good.

When the champion system comes out people are going to be stacking points in more damage or more defense then somebody is going to complain that their class is too powerful even though it is because of the buffs of the champion system. There is going to be a life cycles of nerfs and buffs because somebody is going complain about another classes unique skill so they nerf it then raise another which going to nerf in the future anyway.

During beta bows was too strong, they nerf that. During the months after that " Bows are too weak, Bows are too slow, this is not fair because they have range". They buff them up again. Now they strong again. Oh somebody wants to nerf them again. They nerf sneak damage now. People are complaining now but if those same people are still there in the future they will be rejoicing because the champion going boost there sneak damage.

When Zennimax Online told people that they add and change content on monthly bases everybody was like yay. Now they hate changes. Why buff this it is still useless even though is much better than it was before. Why this ultimate should be just like this ultimate. Reasoning for comparing two ultimates duh because they are ultimates even though they do completely two different things. I have ultimate that does burst damage. I have one that boost my defense. The one ultimate that boost my defense sucks because It does not do damage like my character even though it can still be helpful to somebody else build.

We players are such fickle and complex beings.

Chrlynsch

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

The moral of the story when it comes to buffs and nerfs everybody is going to be unhappy about the good things and the bad things. I can it see now when they do changes for the classes in 1.6. Somebody going complain that they are losing dps or that another class is getting too powerful. My ultimate is useless now or now this skill is useless now but the skill that was useless is now is good.

When the champion system comes out people are going to be stacking points in more damage or more defense then somebody is going to complain that their class is too powerful even though it is because of the buffs of the champion system. There is going to be a life cycles of nerfs and buffs because somebody is going complain about another classes unique skill so they nerf it then raise another which going to nerf in the future anyway.

During beta bows was too strong, they nerf that. During the months after that " Bows are too weak, Bows are too slow, this is not fair because they have range". They buff them up again. Now they strong again. Oh somebody wants to nerf them again. They nerf sneak damage now. People are complaining now but if those same people are still there in the future they will be rejoicing because the champion going boost there sneak damage.

When Zennimax Online told people that they add and change content on monthly bases everybody was like yay. Now they hate changes. Why buff this it is still useless even though is much better than it was before. Why this ultimate should be just like this ultimate. Reasoning for comparing two ultimates duh because they are ultimates even though they do completely two different things. I have ultimate that does burst damage. I have one that boost my defense. The one ultimate that boost my defense sucks because It does not do damage like my character even though it can still be helpful to somebody else build.

We players are such fickle and complex beings.

No reason for this reason and cool headedness here... jk... Good point about the champion tree, we have no clue what may fall under this. Maybe a little treat for ww even if not there will be plenty of things to play with.

Love the new abilities and the four legged running!

Please increase that ww timer, as of now almost all of us are weaker in Werewolf form still even with all the changes... let us sneak so we can't stalk our prey! An interesting and welcome move would be while sprinting or sneaking you lose no time off your ww timer. This would balance because you are unable to attack or use abilities while sprinting. Allows for WW to stay up longer in pvp and in pve takes stress out of transformation.

Allow werewolf to build up ultimate in form either to reuse it to fill up the timer (and maybe even extend time further), or at the very least let it carry over to human form.


Overall the werewolf has made leaps and bounds as of 1.5.1... yet sadly it truly hasn't found its calling and continues to walk the middle of the road.

ZOS seriously needs to ask itself what it wants werewolf to be.

Is it the highest cost (both sp and cost) ultimate form that unlocks us brutish strength, speed, and unique abilities for a short duration of time undoubtedly increasing kill speed aka dps?

Or is this an alternative secret subclass with its own strengths and weaknesses,
Increased mobility, access to a third unique skill bar, slight increase in damage and damage mitigation. With the ability to stay in form nearly indefinitely. Increased vulnerability to Fighter's Guild skills and poison damage, loss of two previous skill bars and an ultimate ability when locked in form, along with true range abilities and weapons. This transformation would need to have indefinite form and sneak capabilities.

So please decide what you want from this skill line because as of this latest version it leaves werewolves with an even higher skill point cost, shorter duration, and lower dps form.

Milf_Hero

I find I kinda funny that people try to justify the limitations there are on werewolves because it is an ultimate. This was the only way they could actually have us change.So they limit it like an ultimate when really its a life style. it really should have been more like vampirism. As a werewolf, it literally changes the (genetic) make up of ones character. You get this weakness to poison greater than any other character and that's with out having the ultimate slotted. "Wait.. it effects us.. with out us having it on the skill bar?" That means its not like the fighters skill line ultimate that passively give a weapon buff while slotted, if you get that morph of it. And its not like other ultimate's. SO why give it limitations like ultimate's when its clearly something different entirely. It should have been a change when you want to type of thing. I got the weakness all the time, I should have the strengths as well. the strengths being, *** cool, and having the abilities they are gonna give us. I already know we wont compete at a competitive level like vamps, or just regular classes. So let us be content with the toy they gave us to play with, whenever we want.