Werewolf 1.5.1 Changes Review.

Hypertionb14_ESO · October 2014

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

kaorunandrak wrote: »

That's a problem FOR YOU, again WW is not meant to be the end all be all and we aren't supposed to be Vampires. Vamps are constantly getting called out to be nerfed that is not the focus werewolves need, we are looking for balance here, the problem is WW does not operate like any other ultimate in game and there fore comparing it to other ultimates is a major issue.

You can't sit there and say well I can chain bat swarm or banner of might, neither of these change your form grant a hidden skill bar and grant access to unique abilities on top of buffing basic stats. Our form is a unique power and with the right setup and mind set is currently in my eyes fairly over powered. I use a two-handed sword prior to transforming with the transformation and passive weapon damage increase I am over charged add the fact I am now effectively swinging that two handed sword as fast as a dual blade user if not faster, with the addition of bleed proc's, crit damage, poison damage, knockdown, fear, best heavy attack/stamina heal in game , a fairly massive self heal which is not using my main attack resource and the ability to feed on practically everything every 7 seconds. I am killing solo dungeon and public dungeon bosses in SECONDS after this patch, the debuff to our duration is justified we are capable of causing a tremendous amount of damage upfront and over time, inflicting insta-knock downs, and massive fear/off balance opportunities for our group. Or would you prefer a massive decrease in the damage and utility we just received just so you can stay in form a few more precious seconds?

Holy wall of text... As this seems to have been aimed at me, I'll respond directly. Firstly, the strawman arguments are everywhere, I don't even know where to start.

I'm not saying that with all the things you mentioned WW's are still BAD. Not once did I say that nor did I mean it. What I'm saying is merely that if we have to sacrifice an ultimate to use this alternate form, it better damn well be MORE effective than when not using the form. This is not the case, hands down. Numbers don't lie.

1800 single target bow dps on a mammoth
1200 single target werewolf dps on a mammoth

Is there anything else that needs to be said?

It's not bad, but if it's going to be compared to other ultimates, i.e. what they're doing with reducing the cost, at least make it ACTUALLY compare to using other ultimates in that slot. As of now, I should still be using flawless dawnbreaker on my stamina build for max dps, WW just doesn't have a place there. Nor am I really more survivable, especially if I ran a magicka build.

That's all I'm sayin. It needs to be a bit more worth it to justify the time reduction.

got a video of that 1.8k bow DPS vs a mammoth, using the same stuff as the 1.2k WW?

If you really need video proof, I guess I could go download fraps... Gunna take awhile to get something uploaded though.

i just want to see, Curious how you are managing it. Bow DPS is really important to Stam builds since its kind of the only way to deal DPS at range.

no worries, understandable. We could also have a PM discussion on the subject if your looking for some tips. But I'm working on the video and will post it regardless, since I'm sure it will be helpful to the discussion.

the highest i have managed to sustain is around 800-1k depending on snipe crits, highest burst i have hit was 2.2k which dropped to 1k dps by the time the mammoth was actually dead.

if bows can sustain 1.8k it will be really good for stam builds in trials, since often melee is somewhat suicidal.

Thejollygreenone · October 2014

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

kaorunandrak wrote: »

That's a problem FOR YOU, again WW is not meant to be the end all be all and we aren't supposed to be Vampires. Vamps are constantly getting called out to be nerfed that is not the focus werewolves need, we are looking for balance here, the problem is WW does not operate like any other ultimate in game and there fore comparing it to other ultimates is a major issue.

You can't sit there and say well I can chain bat swarm or banner of might, neither of these change your form grant a hidden skill bar and grant access to unique abilities on top of buffing basic stats. Our form is a unique power and with the right setup and mind set is currently in my eyes fairly over powered. I use a two-handed sword prior to transforming with the transformation and passive weapon damage increase I am over charged add the fact I am now effectively swinging that two handed sword as fast as a dual blade user if not faster, with the addition of bleed proc's, crit damage, poison damage, knockdown, fear, best heavy attack/stamina heal in game , a fairly massive self heal which is not using my main attack resource and the ability to feed on practically everything every 7 seconds. I am killing solo dungeon and public dungeon bosses in SECONDS after this patch, the debuff to our duration is justified we are capable of causing a tremendous amount of damage upfront and over time, inflicting insta-knock downs, and massive fear/off balance opportunities for our group. Or would you prefer a massive decrease in the damage and utility we just received just so you can stay in form a few more precious seconds?

Holy wall of text... As this seems to have been aimed at me, I'll respond directly. Firstly, the strawman arguments are everywhere, I don't even know where to start.

I'm not saying that with all the things you mentioned WW's are still BAD. Not once did I say that nor did I mean it. What I'm saying is merely that if we have to sacrifice an ultimate to use this alternate form, it better damn well be MORE effective than when not using the form. This is not the case, hands down. Numbers don't lie.

1800 single target bow dps on a mammoth
1200 single target werewolf dps on a mammoth

Is there anything else that needs to be said?

It's not bad, but if it's going to be compared to other ultimates, i.e. what they're doing with reducing the cost, at least make it ACTUALLY compare to using other ultimates in that slot. As of now, I should still be using flawless dawnbreaker on my stamina build for max dps, WW just doesn't have a place there. Nor am I really more survivable, especially if I ran a magicka build.

That's all I'm sayin. It needs to be a bit more worth it to justify the time reduction.

got a video of that 1.8k bow DPS vs a mammoth, using the same stuff as the 1.2k WW?

If you really need video proof, I guess I could go download fraps... Gunna take awhile to get something uploaded though.

i just want to see, Curious how you are managing it. Bow DPS is really important to Stam builds since its kind of the only way to deal DPS at range.

no worries, understandable. We could also have a PM discussion on the subject if your looking for some tips. But I'm working on the video and will post it regardless, since I'm sure it will be helpful to the discussion.

the highest i have managed to sustain is around 800-1k depending on snipe crits, highest burst i have hit was 2.2k which dropped to 1k dps by the time the mammoth was actually dead.

if bows can sustain 1.8k it will be really good for stam builds in trials, since often melee is somewhat suicidal.

Hehe, no one said anything about sustained

These dps numbers are using temporary buffs and potions, all which are fleeting. However the maximum capability under these conditions sheds insight to the overall dps scheme, which is why I test under such conditions. I also make sure to do tests under the opposite conditions every once in awhile though, of course.

And actually, I think the 1800 was a fluke, I think every single attack I threw landed as a crit, and if I remember correctly it was on the mammoths in eastmarch and not the rift as was proper, so they had a bit less max health.

So on the rift mammoths, as I was supposed to, and not getting such lucky streaks, the most I was able to manage was 1675, with my werewolf attempt capping out in the high 1200s. The attempts I caught on video were for around 1630 with bow and low 1200s for werewolf.

Here a link to the video, I apologize in advance for the crappy quality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJEE8doFTBA&feature=youtu.be

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

got a video of that 1.8k bow DPS vs a mammoth, using the same stuff as the 1.2k WW?

Full combat log, no special opener, no ultimate. (giant has 13k health) All i use is Acid Spray, Venom arrow dots with Execute spam.

141021-001354

CONTINUED WEREWOLF TESTING:
Screenshot included with report.

After extensive testing.... There is simply no combination of skills to use that will compensate for the DPS LOSS of using the Werewolf Ultimate.
In human form not only did I find I can do up to 3x the DPS that I can in Werewolf form, But I also have access to the utility of my class skills and other weapon skills.

As of now 1.5.1 There is absolutely no reason to have Werewolf Transformation on your bar.

Other Ultimates do more damage. (used with other skills)
Other Ultimates generate ultimate in use. Werewolf does not.
Other Ultimates give you access to more utility.

The poor time limit of werewolves is pathetic. So is the damage output for its cost. It does not feel like an ultimate, It feels like a gimped 3rd bar.

I HIGHLY reccomend.... Keeping everything as is AND Give back the attack speed bonus and revert to the old time limit. This will make the Ultimate actually feel like an ultimate...OR allow us to use class skills in werewolf form.

Hypertionb14_ESO · October 2014

i can do 1k-1.2k dps in werewolf form with the current changes, if i use haste in advance i am holding 1.5-1.6k dps. this is entirely from the damage using light attacks and a few non charged heavy attacks (to speed up the light attacks)

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i can do 1k-1.2k dps in werewolf form with the current changes, if i use haste in advance i am holding 1.5-1.6k dps. this is entirely from the damage using light attacks and a few non charged heavy attacks (to speed up the light attacks)

After hours of testing with screenshots sent to zos and bug reports. Werewolf can't out DPS my build In human form, not even close. When you apply the two to a boss fight and use any other ultimate...you sustain more DPS...because of the poor time limit of WW form having it on your bar in any sustained end game situation is gimping yourself. In PvP, good luck finding someone who will stand still or corpses that don't dissapear when people revive at FC or way shrine.

Why use WW and make myself weaker to poison when I can do the same/more DPS In Human form?

I'll make a bet....

Post your highest WW DPS.

And I will post higher human form without using an ultimate or potion at all.

Thejollygreenone · October 2014

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i can do 1k-1.2k dps in werewolf form with the current changes, if i use haste in advance i am holding 1.5-1.6k dps. this is entirely from the damage using light attacks and a few non charged heavy attacks (to speed up the light attacks)

Really, 1.5k? I guess I should go back and try again without using Howl of Anguish weaving and just light/heavies.

Although I'm not quite sure what you mean by using partial charged heavys to speed up light attacks-
Is it safe for me to ask of you a video or screenshot, as you asked of me, to give a bit of insight to how you achieved this? If there's something I could be doing better, I'd sure like to know. ^.^

EDIT: Now I'm wishing I could go back and try it, my connection has suddenly gone to hell and I'm riddled with ability lag. Another time for me :-/

Hypertionb14_ESO · October 2014

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i can do 1k-1.2k dps in werewolf form with the current changes, if i use haste in advance i am holding 1.5-1.6k dps. this is entirely from the damage using light attacks and a few non charged heavy attacks (to speed up the light attacks)

Really, 1.5k? I guess I should go back and try again without using Howl of Anguish weaving and just light/heavies.

Although I'm not quite sure what you mean by using partial charged heavys to speed up light attacks-
Is it safe for me to ask of you a video or screenshot, as you asked of me, to give a bit of insight to how you achieved this? If there's something I could be doing better, I'd sure like to know. ^.^

EDIT: Now I'm wishing I could go back and try it, my connection has suddenly gone to hell and I'm riddled with ability lag. Another time for me :-/

lasts as long as Haste does, which is a decent amount of WWs current transform time, even minus the time it takes to transform.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTsjXAWctCw&feature=youtu.be

Thejollygreenone · October 2014

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i can do 1k-1.2k dps in werewolf form with the current changes, if i use haste in advance i am holding 1.5-1.6k dps. this is entirely from the damage using light attacks and a few non charged heavy attacks (to speed up the light attacks)

Really, 1.5k? I guess I should go back and try again without using Howl of Anguish weaving and just light/heavies.

Although I'm not quite sure what you mean by using partial charged heavys to speed up light attacks-
Is it safe for me to ask of you a video or screenshot, as you asked of me, to give a bit of insight to how you achieved this? If there's something I could be doing better, I'd sure like to know. ^.^

EDIT: Now I'm wishing I could go back and try it, my connection has suddenly gone to hell and I'm riddled with ability lag. Another time for me :-/

lasts as long as Haste does, which is a decent amount of WWs current transform time, even minus the time it takes to transform.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTsjXAWctCw&feature=youtu.be

Interesting approach, thanks so much for the upload! I'll have to play around with it and see exactly how it plays out. It looks like you go partial-light-light-repeat, correct?

And is the partial as little charged as possible? It seemed like you were just light attacking the whole time, pretty cool stuff.

So with this in mind, someone at least is able to match the dps of my bow in werewolf form. That's damn good, I must say. Very interesting stuff, food for thought.

EDIT: Looking back on it, maybe its partial-light-light-light-repeat?

Hypertionb14_ESO · October 2014

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i can do 1k-1.2k dps in werewolf form with the current changes, if i use haste in advance i am holding 1.5-1.6k dps. this is entirely from the damage using light attacks and a few non charged heavy attacks (to speed up the light attacks)

Really, 1.5k? I guess I should go back and try again without using Howl of Anguish weaving and just light/heavies.

Although I'm not quite sure what you mean by using partial charged heavys to speed up light attacks-
Is it safe for me to ask of you a video or screenshot, as you asked of me, to give a bit of insight to how you achieved this? If there's something I could be doing better, I'd sure like to know. ^.^

EDIT: Now I'm wishing I could go back and try it, my connection has suddenly gone to hell and I'm riddled with ability lag. Another time for me :-/

lasts as long as Haste does, which is a decent amount of WWs current transform time, even minus the time it takes to transform.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTsjXAWctCw&feature=youtu.be

Interesting approach, thanks for the upload! I'll have to play around with it and see exactly how it plays out. It looks like you go partial-light-light-repeat, correct?

And is the partial as little charged as possible? It seemed like you were just light attacking the whole time, pretty cool stuff.

i barely even hold it down when i do the heavys, there is no delay between a insta-heavy and a followup light on WW, so you can weave them in pretty efficently at speed. it seemingly causes a brief boost in light attack speed too, tho that could just be my imagination.

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i can do 1k-1.2k dps in werewolf form with the current changes, if i use haste in advance i am holding 1.5-1.6k dps. this is entirely from the damage using light attacks and a few non charged heavy attacks (to speed up the light attacks)

Really, 1.5k? I guess I should go back and try again without using Howl of Anguish weaving and just light/heavies.

Although I'm not quite sure what you mean by using partial charged heavys to speed up light attacks-
Is it safe for me to ask of you a video or screenshot, as you asked of me, to give a bit of insight to how you achieved this? If there's something I could be doing better, I'd sure like to know. ^.^

EDIT: Now I'm wishing I could go back and try it, my connection has suddenly gone to hell and I'm riddled with ability lag. Another time for me :-/

lasts as long as Haste does, which is a decent amount of WWs current transform time, even minus the time it takes to transform.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTsjXAWctCw&feature=youtu.be

Interesting approach, thanks so much for the upload! I'll have to play around with it and see exactly how it plays out. It looks like you go partial-light-light-repeat, correct?

And is the partial as little charged as possible? It seemed like you were just light attacking the whole time, pretty cool stuff.

So with this in mind, someone at least is able to match the dps of my bow in werewolf form. That's damn good, I must say. Very interesting stuff, food for thought.

The problem is.....its an Ultimate...its supposed to be beneficial. If you do the SAME DPS in Human form. Whats the point?

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

It does good DPS..that's great... but there's no reason to use it of we get the same damage results in human form with no negative side effects like taking 50% more damage from disease/poison

Thejollygreenone · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i can do 1k-1.2k dps in werewolf form with the current changes, if i use haste in advance i am holding 1.5-1.6k dps. this is entirely from the damage using light attacks and a few non charged heavy attacks (to speed up the light attacks)

Really, 1.5k? I guess I should go back and try again without using Howl of Anguish weaving and just light/heavies.

Although I'm not quite sure what you mean by using partial charged heavys to speed up light attacks-
Is it safe for me to ask of you a video or screenshot, as you asked of me, to give a bit of insight to how you achieved this? If there's something I could be doing better, I'd sure like to know. ^.^

EDIT: Now I'm wishing I could go back and try it, my connection has suddenly gone to hell and I'm riddled with ability lag. Another time for me :-/

lasts as long as Haste does, which is a decent amount of WWs current transform time, even minus the time it takes to transform.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTsjXAWctCw&feature=youtu.be

Interesting approach, thanks so much for the upload! I'll have to play around with it and see exactly how it plays out. It looks like you go partial-light-light-repeat, correct?

And is the partial as little charged as possible? It seemed like you were just light attacking the whole time, pretty cool stuff.

So with this in mind, someone at least is able to match the dps of my bow in werewolf form. That's damn good, I must say. Very interesting stuff, food for thought.

The problem is.....its an Ultimate...its supposed to be beneficial. If you do the SAME DPS in Human form. Whats the point?

An alternate playstyle?

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i can do 1k-1.2k dps in werewolf form with the current changes, if i use haste in advance i am holding 1.5-1.6k dps. this is entirely from the damage using light attacks and a few non charged heavy attacks (to speed up the light attacks)

Really, 1.5k? I guess I should go back and try again without using Howl of Anguish weaving and just light/heavies.

Although I'm not quite sure what you mean by using partial charged heavys to speed up light attacks-
Is it safe for me to ask of you a video or screenshot, as you asked of me, to give a bit of insight to how you achieved this? If there's something I could be doing better, I'd sure like to know. ^.^

EDIT: Now I'm wishing I could go back and try it, my connection has suddenly gone to hell and I'm riddled with ability lag. Another time for me :-/

lasts as long as Haste does, which is a decent amount of WWs current transform time, even minus the time it takes to transform.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTsjXAWctCw&feature=youtu.be

Interesting approach, thanks so much for the upload! I'll have to play around with it and see exactly how it plays out. It looks like you go partial-light-light-repeat, correct?

And is the partial as little charged as possible? It seemed like you were just light attacking the whole time, pretty cool stuff.

So with this in mind, someone at least is able to match the dps of my bow in werewolf form. That's damn good, I must say. Very interesting stuff, food for thought.

The problem is.....its an Ultimate...its supposed to be beneficial. If you do the SAME DPS in Human form. Whats the point?

An alternate playstyle?

That gimps you?

Thejollygreenone · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

i can do 1k-1.2k dps in werewolf form with the current changes, if i use haste in advance i am holding 1.5-1.6k dps. this is entirely from the damage using light attacks and a few non charged heavy attacks (to speed up the light attacks)

Really, 1.5k? I guess I should go back and try again without using Howl of Anguish weaving and just light/heavies.

Although I'm not quite sure what you mean by using partial charged heavys to speed up light attacks-
Is it safe for me to ask of you a video or screenshot, as you asked of me, to give a bit of insight to how you achieved this? If there's something I could be doing better, I'd sure like to know. ^.^

EDIT: Now I'm wishing I could go back and try it, my connection has suddenly gone to hell and I'm riddled with ability lag. Another time for me :-/

lasts as long as Haste does, which is a decent amount of WWs current transform time, even minus the time it takes to transform.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTsjXAWctCw&feature=youtu.be

Interesting approach, thanks so much for the upload! I'll have to play around with it and see exactly how it plays out. It looks like you go partial-light-light-repeat, correct?

And is the partial as little charged as possible? It seemed like you were just light attacking the whole time, pretty cool stuff.

So with this in mind, someone at least is able to match the dps of my bow in werewolf form. That's damn good, I must say. Very interesting stuff, food for thought.

The problem is.....its an Ultimate...its supposed to be beneficial. If you do the SAME DPS in Human form. Whats the point?

An alternate playstyle?

That gimps you?

If gimping means leaves you in the same place you were with a different ult, then... I guess. You can build around the poison weakness, which is the only weakness that is going to affect anything in pve.

Bosmer has their poison resistance passive, you can put 1500 poison resistance on a ring if you want. If you do one of either of these things, the negative isn't noticeable, and your dps will be just about the same place.

I'd say that's worth it enough for those who simply want to be werewolf for the sake of being werewolf. However I do think by the nature of the ult it should be a short duration burst of strength, as is what you seem to imagine it as.

But if I can prevent any major negatives from occurring (use it on boss fights planned to be less than 30 seconds or that has adds to devour to prevent transformation stun etc) then I'll happily take equal damage output in and out of form.

If we're talking pvp then the maximum st dps kind of gets washed out by mid combat mechanics and survival tactics. We don't really know how werewolf is going to behave in pvp yet, as far as I know proper testing for pvp on the pts is scarce if at all existent.

I don't think it's fair to say you'll be worse in your human build in pvp if no one has really tried it in pvp yet. Personally, I think I'll be more survivable in werewolf form, outside of the fighters guild weakness. Personally, my healing capabilities theoretically will be much larger, I'll be more mobile due to the speed increase, and have far superior CC abilities.

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

If gimping means leaves you in the same place you were with a different ult, then... I guess. You can build around the poison weakness, which is the only weakness that is going to affect anything in pve.

Wrong.

It doesn't matter how much poison resist you have you will still take more damage from poison/disease as a werewolf. Just like vampires who stack 3k fire resist still take more dmg from fire.

That is also not the only weakness. The other is that in werewolf form you lose Class utility. You will also get train wrecked by silver bolts.

There is no other way to see it other than a gimp to your character UNLESS they increase the damage done in WW form. When I see a werewolf deal more single target than me in single target human form. Then I will agree the buffs were worth the time and effort.

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

@Hypertionb14_ESO‌
@Thejollygreenone

No Ultimate used. No Potion. No Momentum or Surge buffs (I'm a melee sorc)

took me 1 wrecking blow 2 executes to kill a mammoth in 3 seconds.

So why bother with being a Werewolf?

Thejollygreenone · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

If gimping means leaves you in the same place you were with a different ult, then... I guess. You can build around the poison weakness, which is the only weakness that is going to affect anything in pve.

Wrong.

It doesn't matter how much poison resist you have you will still take more damage from poison/disease as a werewolf. Just like vampires who stack 3k fire resist still take more dmg from fire.

That is also not the only weakness. The other is that in werewolf form you lose Class utility. You will also get train wrecked by silver bolts.

There is no other way to see it other than a gimp to your character UNLESS they increase the damage done in WW form. When I see a werewolf deal more single target than me in single target human form. Then I will agree the buffs were worth the time and effort.

Again with the strawman arguments. My argument wasn't that you could negate the poison damage bonus, it was that you could mitigate it to negligible amounts. Furthermore, the amount of poison damage going around in trials isn't very large.

Also, you keep going on about losing class utility, but it's not losing class utility when you gain other utility is it? Furthermore, there's a lot of the class aspects that you do keep, including some of the utility. Such as prebuffing haste as a nightblade, or even critical surge as a sorcerer.

I'm gunna end my part in this discussion here though, it's clear how little progress is made since we keep reverting to the same points without anything being refuted or proven.

Have fun being angry about the changes, I'll have fun being happy about the changes and personally not feeling weaker when entering werewolf form, and I would be even happier if ZoS decide to tweak us to be a little stronger. I'll leave you with one final note: The influence of expectations is a strong one.

Riseofangelsb14a_ESO · October 2014

Does nobody else have a problem with the fact we are spending 22 skill points for an ultimate that doesn't drastically increase our dps and/or the fact it only last 30 secs.

When I'm a werewolf I want to hunt down my prey but I can't do that now because in order to chase someone, that's precious time that i need for killing the guy I'm going after.(pvp) and with pve I want to be able to roam and choose my prey. I dont want to worry about constantly feeding.(also I want to run around on all fours for an extended time period) ((thanks by the way for adding that ZSO it's just great!))

also love the new abilities. Just make our time as ww longer so I don't have to feel like crap about wasting 22 skill points.

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

Riseofangelsb14a_ESO wrote: »

Does nobody else have a problem with the fact we are spending 22 skill points for an ultimate that doesn't drastically increase our dps and/or the fact it only last 30 secs.

When I'm a werewolf I want to hunt down my prey but I can't do that now because in order to chase someone, that's precious time that i need for killing the guy I'm going after.(pvp) and with pve I want to be able to roam and choose my prey. I dont want to worry about constantly feeding.(also I want to run around on all fours for an extended time period) ((thanks by the way for adding that ZSO it's just great!))

also love the new abilities. Just make our time as ww longer so I don't have to feel like crap about wasting 22 skill points.

THIS

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

If gimping means leaves you in the same place you were with a different ult, then... I guess. You can build around the poison weakness, which is the only weakness that is going to affect anything in pve.

Wrong.

It doesn't matter how much poison resist you have you will still take more damage from poison/disease as a werewolf. Just like vampires who stack 3k fire resist still take more dmg from fire.

That is also not the only weakness. The other is that in werewolf form you lose Class utility. You will also get train wrecked by silver bolts.

There is no other way to see it other than a gimp to your character UNLESS they increase the damage done in WW form. When I see a werewolf deal more single target than me in single target human form. Then I will agree the buffs were worth the time and effort.

Again with the strawman arguments. My argument wasn't that you could negate the poison damage bonus, it was that you could mitigate it to negligible amounts. Furthermore, the amount of poison damage going around in trials isn't very large.

Also, you keep going on about losing class utility, but it's not losing class utility when you gain other utility is it? Furthermore, there's a lot of the class aspects that you do keep, including some of the utility. Such as prebuffing haste as a nightblade, or even critical surge as a sorcerer.

I'm gunna end my part in this discussion here though, it's clear how little progress is made since we keep reverting to the same points without anything being refuted or proven.

Have fun being angry about the changes, I'll have fun being happy about the changes and personally not feeling weaker when entering werewolf form, and I would be even happier if ZoS decide to tweak us to be a little stronger. I'll leave you with one final note: The influence of expectations is a strong one.

Please see screenshot post above.

Chrlynsch · October 2014

Allow werewolves to retain their ultimate that they have gained when transformation occurs. We still need a boost to damage in after 1.5.1 reasonably at least a 15-20%. Above all, something I would love to see is the pack element.

Right now we get a maximum of an additional 7 sec in werewolf form if we are hunting in a pack with the passive... is this anything to even bat an eye to? Make this passive worth it... slow the timer by 25% for each ww to a maximum of... 100%!!! Aka a permanent wolf pack

RPers would love this!

Packs would pop up in pvp. No one would be upset and there would be balance!
Pros:
-they would be deadlier (boost damage by 20%) strong bleeds,disease ticks and heal reduction.
-we are more mobile in combat.
-werewolves...

Cons:
-Werewolves can't stealth
-lack of stealth means lack of bonus burst damage.... no 1.5k sneak attack
-We have no real range attack (attacking those on walls or keeps)
-We really don't have any surprises (cookie cutter skill bar)
-Countered easily by every bow user or Fighters Guild ability because you KNOW a werewolf when you see it... no mistake.

Though I honestly think it would still be fair if werewolves were given the ability to stealth. This new pack format would really make WW want to group up.

Allow those running evil hunter to see glowing footprints or werewolf outline when werewolves are stealthed 15m (hunt the hunters). How fun would this be?

Thejollygreenone · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

@Hypertionb14_ESO‌
@Thejollygreenone

No Ultimate used. No Potion. No Momentum or Surge buffs (I'm a melee sorc)

took me 1 wrecking blow 2 executes to kill a mammoth in 3 seconds.

Wow, just have to say... Using a stealth attack wrecking blow in a sustained dps parse. Just...wow. No one is sneak attacking on a trial boss. It's just not that simple.

Also, on a mob that has 5k hp? Come on man, I really hope you don't think this is how other people are testing.

The mammoths I test on have 14k health. The longer the fight the more accurate representation of sustained dps. I understand that you're daggerfall covenant and don't have the same mammoths to work on that we do, but there's gotta be something better to test on for you.

Sneak attacking something that dies when you do 5k damage to it is not an accurate representation of DPS. I can attack a mob with 6k hp from stealth too and get 2.5k dps. That's not relevant, it's not happening in trials. Bosses don't go down in 3 seconds, and you can't really sneak attack them.

If you can go to the rift, find the giant camp and kill a 14k+ hp mammoth with the higher than the 1600 dps Hyperion provided without using sneak attacks and come back with a screenshot like the rest of us do, then you MAY have a point. Otherwise, this is just more exaggeration.

Troll more. As I said, I have no further desire to have a discussion with someone who exaggerates information to attempt to win an argument. Have fun being angry with the great werewolf changes that are already in place.

Lykanus · October 2014

Riseofangelsb14a_ESO wrote: »

When I'm a werewolf I want to hunt down my prey but I can't do that now because in order to chase someone, that's precious time that i need for killing the guy I'm going after.(pvp) and with pve I want to be able to roam and choose my prey. I dont want to worry about constantly feeding.(also I want to run around on all fours for an extended time period) ((thanks by the way for adding that ZSO it's just great!))

Thats what i see too, i want to actually use my werewolf, and it needs to be able to be used in Groups (Dungeons-i mean group dungeons-, Trials, Arenas). It doesnt need to be the best Skill line, it just needs to be worthwhile and useable.
I'm playing an MMO with friends, anyone tested out the new werewolf duration with a group? Trials, Group Dungeons and any larger Group activity is not possible with that short duration, sadly all those nice upgrades are a waste if you dont get the time to use them actually. Devouring isnt always an option, especially in PvP and group dungeon/trials/bossfights.

If it feels for ZOS to strong, then please increase again the ultimate cost of the transformation from 400 back to 600 or such but increase the time-triple from what is it now, at least then you can use the WW for something when you turn, i'd even prefer turning not so often but being then able to use some tactics and plan my attacks & build for the Werewolf for an encounter /pvp attack then just use my standard human build and somewhere in the fight i turn for 30secs into a werewolf....

The other changes are really good for the werewolf, and i love the running animation changes and the way the werewolf line has taken now, but the time needs to be corrected so the werewolf changes will work, otherwise all those awesome changes couldnt be really used and the Werewolves would sit again where they were before-an unused ultimate, now he would have a chance to be a used skill line with the new abilities and the upgrades, even if he might isnt the best he would do decent enough- but the WW needs the time for it..

risen1981 · October 2014

Riseofangelsb14a_ESO wrote: »

Does nobody else have a problem with the fact we are spending 22 skill points for an ultimate that doesn't drastically increase our dps and/or the fact it only last 30 secs.

When I'm a werewolf I want to hunt down my prey but I can't do that now because in order to chase someone, that's precious time that i need for killing the guy I'm going after.(pvp) and with pve I want to be able to roam and choose my prey. I dont want to worry about constantly feeding.(also I want to run around on all fours for an extended time period) ((thanks by the way for adding that ZSO it's just great!))

also love the new abilities. Just make our time as ww longer so I don't have to feel like crap about wasting 22 skill points.

Couldn't agree more. I would prefer a toggle..
But ultimate gained during morph should not reset while morphing back human, let's at least agree on that.

The timer is fine IF devour completly reset it to 100%. I can almost see what happens to WW in pvp... "Snare..then kite" timer ends ultimate wasted

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

@Thejollygreenone‌

Lets see it. No buffs. No Ultimate No Potion like my pic lol.

My point is why be a Werewolf? @Riseofangelsb14a_ESO Hit the nail on the head. That is my point, put into better words.

trimsic_ESO · October 2014

kaorunandrak wrote: »

You can't sit there and say well I can chain bat swarm or banner of might, neither of these change your form grant a hidden skill bar and grant access to unique abilities on top of buffing basic stats.

With bat swarm, I can:
- Deal huge damage with bat swarm
- Deal huge damage with pulsar
- Block
- All at the same time...
- And chain

This is what I called an OP skill.

This is the reason why, the ultimate points should be reset when getting out of bat swarm, using the same mechanics as when we return back to our human form. A werewolf cannot chain the werewolf form and a vampire should not chain bat swarm, because both are over powered otherwise.

kaorunandrak · October 2014

Ok for those complaining about the ultimate being reset, have you given any thought to it being a technical hurdle/impossibility?

For you guys who want to keep saying werewolf VS other ultimate lets look at the facts.

-No other ultimate in game gives you a different skill bar, so the possibility of a technical issue being the limitation on ultimate gain could be a valid argument. For all we know the werewolf change could actually be a separate actor being replaced with current non toggle buffs being reapplied. Many games handle their "shape shifters" in this way.

-No other single ultimate grants you a speed increase, weapon damage increase, two different DOT mechanics, self heal, stamina bonus, armor bonus, leap attack, knock down, group fear, unbalanced to enemies, self heal on attack, buff to stamina generation on heavy attacks, buff to ultimate duration, and the list continues all in one Ultimate package.

Every ultimate in-game is different, is used for different things, that is the beauty of this game your skill bar and play style is in flux because while an AOE might be good for this encounter it might be a terrible idea for the next.

I understand the want for an end all be all set up that is completely optimized for any and all content and situations but you can't expect that of this game. That is not the formula they went for when they designed this game. They are not going to give us an ultimate that over shadows every single other ultimate in game or makes other players and play styles seem completely useless(they already have a few like that and they are being looked at hopefully).

Werewolf on live is weak, it has marginal utility, marginal survivability, and is deemed by the "majority" of "vocal" players and critics to be a waste. Werewolf on PTS brings more to the table is capable of more then live. They have addressed it's weaknesses and have made it a more comparable and appealing for those wanting to explore the monster races.

If you still feel it is a complete waste of skill points then perhaps you shouldn't be using it, let alone playing this type of game. Have you given any thought that it could be super use full for a tank spec that wants to deal some damage or something to that effect? Not every skill is going to be custom built for you to your specifications with your needs and wants being considered.

They set out to improve the skill from what it is on live they did, arguing different is a waste of time damage is not the only way to improve an ability.

As far as asking for haste, yet again they said they were going to be phasing those abilities out we aren't going to get the attack speed back just like some time soon nightblades wont have haste either. You know what a better request is? Werewolf stealth why not? Or perhaps just asking them what role do they see werewolf and vampire playing in end game content so that way when they make changes we can understand where they are coming from rather than becoming hostile and whipping out our screen shots and FRAPS.

Remember they don't want players to feel forced into playing one of the monster races so your perceived nerf could also be part of that equation. You have to show more then my human form out damages my werewolf form by this many, oh yeah well my vet 1 dragonknight makes my vet 7 nightblade look like he is that kid from kindergarten that smells funny and eats paste in the corner it doesn't matter. Does your "human" form have as good of a self heal? Does it have access to a AOE fear? Does it have access to knockdowns? Is it capable of applying Multiple damage type Dots? Does it have access to a "teleport attack"? Do you have access to all those abilities in a single fight?

Meh I'm done, I like the changes I think they are good I see room for improvement in the future, we will see if it's needed. As the ability currently stands on PTS it has now found a permanent place on my DPS setup and Solo adventure setups for both my characters.

Hypertionb14_ESO · October 2014

im going to put my stand on Werewolf right now.

Werewolf form is temporary boost for the drawback
Vampire is constant boost for the drawback

in my eyes the benifit/drawback should reflect this differance.

the problem is that overall for the temporary nature of Werewolf its never really been better than what is possible outside of it..

On live this is not the case since Stamina builds are so much weaker, using Werewolf form can boost your DPS dramatically. the sad thing is on live that endpoint is still below magicka builds.

on the PTS the overall changes to Werewolf amount to being just as strong as non Werewolf form overall (slightly higher DPS) demeaning the ability to simply the ability to turn into a dog version of your run of the mill Dual wield build.

the thing is that overall, its improved compaired to how it was.. we now have massive survival ability in addition to the DPS vs what we have on Live.. the problem now is that the baselines have risen again, its still only average in terms of capability.

them shortening the duration indicates they mean it to be a short but powerful boost, compared to the constant that vampire is. the problem is that overall it still doesn't really reflect that. being just a short "alternative"

dont get me wrong tho.. i am REALLY happy with the changes thus far, Werewolf is nothing like it once was.

omy_mkeb17_ESO · October 2014

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

kaorunandrak wrote: »

You can't sit there and say well I can chain bat swarm or banner of might, neither of these change your form grant a hidden skill bar and grant access to unique abilities on top of buffing basic stats.

With bat swarm, I can:
- Deal huge damage with bat swarm
- Deal huge damage with pulsar
- Block
- All at the same time...
- And chain

This is what I called an OP skill.

This is the reason why, the ultimate points should be reset when getting out of bat swarm, using the same mechanics as when we return back to our human form. A werewolf cannot chain the werewolf form and a vampire should not chain bat swarm, because both are over powered otherwise.

I don't need a nerf for Bat swarm!?! That would not make me enjoy the WW skill line more. I'm not pvping so i don't have to deal with the vampire Bat swarm spam. I'm sure there are dedicated threads for that issue.

I need something that I can use as a pve player!! I need WW to be fixed. I need my ultimate points gained in WW form. The increased ultimate cost for WW and the extra poison dmg taken already trades off with it's "overpowered-wanna-be" status, not to mention all the other downsides u have as a WW like not being able to sneak, not able to use class skills, subject to Fighter's Guild skills, etc..

Chrlynsch · October 2014

kaorunandrak wrote: »

Ok for those complaining about the ultimate being reset, have you given any thought to it being a technical hurdle/impossibility?

For you guys who want to keep saying werewolf VS other ultimate lets look at the facts.

-No other ultimate in game gives you a different skill bar, so the possibility of a technical issue being the limitation on ultimate gain could be a valid argument. For all we know the werewolf change could actually be a separate actor being replaced with current non toggle buffs being reapplied. Many games handle their "shape shifters" in this way.

-No other single ultimate grants you a speed increase, weapon damage increase, two different DOT mechanics, self heal, stamina bonus, armor bonus, leap attack, knock down, group fear, unbalanced to enemies, self heal on attack, buff to stamina generation on heavy attacks, buff to ultimate duration, and the list continues all in one Ultimate package.

Every ultimate in-game is different, is used for different things, that is the beauty of this game your skill bar and play style is in flux because while an AOE might be good for this encounter it might be a terrible idea for the next.

I understand the want for an end all be all set up that is completely optimized for any and all content and situations but you can't expect that of this game. That is not the formula they went for when they designed this game. They are not going to give us an ultimate that over shadows every single other ultimate in game or makes other players and play styles seem completely useless(they already have a few like that and they are being looked at hopefully).

Werewolf on live is weak, it has marginal utility, marginal survivability, and is deemed by the "majority" of "vocal" players and critics to be a waste. Werewolf on PTS brings more to the table is capable of more then live. They have addressed it's weaknesses and have made it a more comparable and appealing for those wanting to explore the monster races.

If you still feel it is a complete waste of skill points then perhaps you shouldn't be using it, let alone playing this type of game. Have you given any thought that it could be super use full for a tank spec that wants to deal some damage or something to that effect? Not every skill is going to be custom built for you to your specifications with your needs and wants being considered.

They set out to improve the skill from what it is on live they did, arguing different is a waste of time damage is not the only way to improve an ability.

As far as asking for haste, yet again they said they were going to be phasing those abilities out we aren't going to get the attack speed back just like some time soon nightblades wont have haste either. You know what a better request is? Werewolf stealth why not? Or perhaps just asking them what role do they see werewolf and vampire playing in end game content so that way when they make changes we can understand where they are coming from rather than becoming hostile and whipping out our screen shots and FRAPS.

Remember they don't want players to feel forced into playing one of the monster races so your perceived nerf could also be part of that equation. You have to show more then my human form out damages my werewolf form by this many, oh yeah well my vet 1 dragonknight makes my vet 7 nightblade look like he is that kid from kindergarten that smells funny and eats paste in the corner it doesn't matter. Does your "human" form have as good of a self heal? Does it have access to a AOE fear? Does it have access to knockdowns? Is it capable of applying Multiple damage type Dots? Does it have access to a "teleport attack"? Do you have access to all those abilities in a single fight?

Meh I'm done, I like the changes I think they are good I see room for improvement in the future, we will see if it's needed. As the ability currently stands on PTS it has now found a permanent place on my DPS setup and Solo adventure setups for both my characters.

I see where your coming from on many aspects, ww is essentially a third temp skill bar for the trade of an ultimate.

Multiple tick dps is good in pvp especially if your using a healing debuff... ad bleed damage isn't blockable. Though this is also a drawback as many creatures in pvp are immune to bleed. Makes sense for creatures made of bone and fire but. As long as fire creatures can burn and frost creatures can be frozen.

Let everything bleed! Vampires can drain essence from pretty much anything... justify it as a essence bleed... "causing life force to bleed" If it's blood, ice, sap, fire, ooz, if you cut something deep enough it's going leak.

When you say ultimate drop may be mechanical impossible. You can transform in a delve and leave the dungeon in form you will be reversed to human... keeping all ultimate you gained. I have complete confidence in ZOS in figuring this out. They are more than likely just stretched thin. If it is intended they can just say it. Though I don't think this is the case as they weren't aware of cc break issues in WW form for 6 months.

As long as it has a short timer. There is no use for stealth.

Werewolf is not granting a distinct boost to DPS, Survivability, or Utility.

Not going to lie... any shape or form my main will always be a werewolf looking for his pack.