Why Can't I Make a Pure Stamina Build in ESO?

bellanca6561n

Interesting point. But it's not just this game. Ultima Online had pure physical warriors not all that long ago, though the trait was Dexterity and these fighters were called Dexers, healing - and cross healing - with bandages.

Not sure when magic became mandatory in this genre of online gaming or when we all became magicians, but it seems to follow the pattern of the MMO outgrowing its acronym and becoming more and more a solo game you play with other people around. This reduced the sort of specialization the question implies.

kitsinni

As long as they keep damage scaling off of your pools this game is going to be a mess. If they are determined to have every class skill be magicka based this game is going to always favor light/staff users. Having all defense eat in to the damage pool of Stamina builds just pushes people further in to magicka builds. No amount of buffs/nerfs in the world is going to fix that because it is a core design failure. It wouldn't even be that hard to fix but they are extremely determined to have it that way.

Shunravi

And I am sorry for jumping on you so strongly @Hlaren_shortsheath, I am fully aware of the issues and challenges of stamina builds. I have done my fair share with experimenting with them.

Dual wield's aoe is not insignificant though. On a hybrid, it's a beast. But that is hybrid, and still a bit below pure majica.

I have run Vr dungeons, trials, and dragonstar with dual wielders, two handers, and s/b dps. They have their strengths and weaknesses, but they are still capable of clearing the content.

Gilvoth

MorHawk wrote: »

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

thats an excelent point, and i do use those other skills that are magicka based.
and thank you by the way for focusing on the thread subject and not my imperfections in speech.
the skills in the stamina based skill line tho, they should not be as weak as they are. - with the limited amount of skill slots -

"Oops. I made a mistake. Sorry.". Try it. It's fun, I promise.
For the record, I agree. I've got into a number of debates here that regen isn't the only issue with stamina builds. The skills themselves are, in many cases, very lackluster in comparison to their magicka equivalents.

oh, absolutely, np
the dark brotherhood and thieves guild,
the invisibility and casting invisibility is a must and thats magicka based. in addition to the sneaking which is all classes.
i do use magicka based spells and have done alot of experimenting with them.
i just prefer physical because when you look at the description of "my apologies for bringing this up but" nightblade - it implies dark brotherhood and thieves guild type play style and it involves clearly physical type actions and implied stamina type skills.

Shunravi

MorHawk wrote: »

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

thats an excelent point, and i do use those other skills that are magicka based.
and thank you by the way for focusing on the thread subject and not my imperfections in speech.
the skills in the stamina based skill line tho, they should not be as weak as they are. - with the limited amount of skill slots -

"Oops. I made a mistake. Sorry.". Try it. It's fun, I promise.
For the record, I agree. I've got into a number of debates here that regen isn't the only issue with stamina builds. The skills themselves are, in many cases, very lackluster in comparison to their magicka equivalents.

Not the least of which is the fact that bleeds do not affect half the enimies in the game, while majica abilities affect everything.

That on top of weapon abilities just having lacklustre damage in many ways compared to majica ones.

Gilvoth

- getting cut with a razor bone deep OR getting electricuted and shocked to death -
why must the electricution be considered worse and do more damage when in a mmo?

kitsinni

The only pure stamina build that makes any sense to me to play is NB Bow that relies 100% of stealth, and that only makes sense in PvP.

You can dump everything in to stamina and not even take any health because you are going to die if you don't kill them anyway. You don't need any magicka because the only skill you will use that takes it is Shadowy Disguise or possibly your favorite flavor of mark target depending on your choice. You get your weapon damage as high as possible.

Start in stealth and put on camouflaged hunter open with Lethal arrow > light attack > poison arrow, all three should basically hit at once. Follow with Shadowy Disguise > poison > light attack > poison arrow. At this point they are dead or you run. You can also do Lethal arrow > Mark target > light > poison arrow (can be better against heavy armor).

If things go well you can kill them before they can react, if they don't you either cloak or die anyway. Hope they are a vamp and you get the camo hunter bonus from stealth and maybe a lucky proc.

Sord

A key point I think we are missing out on here for stam based builds is how the armor functions, how damage is done and how many lines focus on stam vs magic. I know some class powers scale with stam, some with health, and some with magica. However all class powers use magica and for the majority of builds people want to use their class powers because class powers are awesome, which in turn makes using a LA build more effective and stronger, which is not balanced, for the regen so you can use your class abilities more often and off set the LA with stam/stam regen to make up for the loss of MA stam; which is not how it should be done. The majority of the 5 powers on your bar will be class based because there are a total of 8 possible lines to choose from for magica and only 4 possible lines that are stam based (but really it is usually 3/4 magic to 1/2 stam). This is off balance for the use of stam based builds pushing for an optimal build to go LA because the majority of powers are Magica based.

I personally feel that if a class power scales off of health or stam it should cost stam and if it scales of magica it should cost magica. Most class power 60-70% seem to scale off of magica but the other 30-40% would change how a pure fighter or tank would be built in regards to armor. It would still leave hybrids as hybrids and maybe shift one power of the 5/10 they use to stam, and it will leave magic users as magic users because the majority of the class powers in most lines will still be 60-70 magica based, so it won't effect you as much as the current system is effecting stam based builds.

I for one am all for a rework in making some class powers that use stam and health as their primary scaler to become stam based powers.

Shunravi

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

thats an excelent point, and i do use those other skills that are magicka based.
and thank you by the way for focusing on the thread subject and not my imperfections in speech.
the skills in the stamina based skill line tho, they should not be as weak as they are. - with the limited amount of skill slots -

"Oops. I made a mistake. Sorry.". Try it. It's fun, I promise.
For the record, I agree. I've got into a number of debates here that regen isn't the only issue with stamina builds. The skills themselves are, in many cases, very lackluster in comparison to their magicka equivalents.

oh, absolutely, np
the dark brotherhood and thieves guild,
the invisibility and casting invisibility is a must and thats magicka based. in addition to the sneaking which is all classes.
i do use magicka based spells and have done alot of experimenting with them.
i just prefer physical because when you look at the description of "my apologies for bringing this up but" nightblade - it implies dark brotherhood and thieves guild type play style and it involves clearly physical type actions and implied stamina type skills.

That is debatable in the lore... I recall a few mages in each organisation. Also nightblades are traditionally illusion, healing, and destruction mages in TES. But I digress...

I really find it rather sad that ZOS did not forsee this problem, and that players would gravitate to the class with the description that seemed the least involved with magic. To be fair, though, nightblade skills do conjure bound weapons, and TES also has shortrange touch spells...

But I see that more as a misconception than a class problem.

kitsinni

Sord wrote: »

A key point I think we are missing out on here for stam based builds is how the armor functions, how damage is done and how many lines focus on stam vs magic. I know some class powers scale with stam, some with health, and some with magica. However all class powers use magica and for the majority of builds people want to use their class powers because class powers are awesome, which in turn makes using a LA build more effective and stronger, which is not balanced, for the regen so you can use your class abilities more often and off set the LA with stam/stam regen to make up for the loss of MA stam; which is not how it should be done. The majority of the 5 powers on your bar will be class based because there are a total of 8 possible lines to choose from for magica and only 4 possible lines that are stam based (but really it is usually 3/4 magic to 1/2 stam). This is off balance for the use of stam based builds pushing for an optimal build to go LA because the majority of powers are Magica based.

I personally feel that if a class power scales off of health or stam it should cost stam and if it scales of magica it should cost magica. Most class power 60-70% seem to scale off of magica but the other 30-40% would change how a pure fighter or tank would be built in regards to armor. It would still leave hybrids as hybrids and maybe shift one power of the 5/10 they use to stam, and it will leave magic users as magic users because the majority of the class powers in most lines will still be 60-70 magica based, so it won't effect you as much as the current system is effecting stam based builds.

I for one am all for a rework in making some class powers that use stam and health as their primary scaler to become stam based powers.

It is actually 100% of class abilities scale off of Magicka. Some use weapon crit and some use spell crit but 100% scale from Magicka.

Gilvoth

Shunravi wrote: »

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

thats an excelent point, and i do use those other skills that are magicka based.
and thank you by the way for focusing on the thread subject and not my imperfections in speech.
the skills in the stamina based skill line tho, they should not be as weak as they are. - with the limited amount of skill slots -

"Oops. I made a mistake. Sorry.". Try it. It's fun, I promise.
For the record, I agree. I've got into a number of debates here that regen isn't the only issue with stamina builds. The skills themselves are, in many cases, very lackluster in comparison to their magicka equivalents.

oh, absolutely, np
the dark brotherhood and thieves guild,
the invisibility and casting invisibility is a must and thats magicka based. in addition to the sneaking which is all classes.
i do use magicka based spells and have done alot of experimenting with them.
i just prefer physical because when you look at the description of "my apologies for bringing this up but" nightblade - it implies dark brotherhood and thieves guild type play style and it involves clearly physical type actions and implied stamina type skills.

That is debatable in the lore... I recall a few mages in each organisation. Also nightblades are traditionally illusion, healing, and destruction mages in TES. But I digress...

I really find it rather sad that ZOS did not forsee this problem, and that players would gravitate to the class with the description that seemed the least involved with magic. To be fair, though, nightblade skills do conjure bound weapons, and TES also has shortrange touch spells...

But I see that more as a misconception than a class problem.

this is correct if you are only looking at oblivion and skyrim, because they even specificly mention in the dark brotherhood in skyrim that magicka base has equal uses especially from stealth in dark brotherhood.
i cannot remember the exact wording but, the old man in the db sanctuary said sopmething along the lines of:

"magicka should not be overlooked here in the dark brotherhood, because from stealth a fireball can kill just as easly as a hidden dagger can"

However, this was not so in morrowind,
morrowind's dark brotherhood was based on physical damage mingled with invisibility, the members allways used daggers or swords with poisen on them including stunn. my beliefs stem from that memory and is a deep passion with me based on that memory.

Nox_Aeterna

You just said it OP , is TES games usually you never get almost no moves to spend stamina on.

Stamina builds in the others games is pretty much just using your blade and having a few extra moves.

While magicka is about having over a hundred different spells and moves that do the most absurd things.

With that said , we can expect them to make some changes to that since this is an MMO.

PS: still hoping to see spears in this game.

Gilvoth

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

You just said it OP , is TES games usually you never get almost no moves to spend stamina on.

Stamina builds in the others games is pretty much just using your blade and having a few extra moves.

While magicka is about having over a hundred different spells and moves that do the most absurd things.

With that said , we can expect them to make some changes to that since this is an MMO.

PS: still hoping to see spears in this game.

awesome post,
let me say tho something about 2 bosses, 1 boss is in cryodiil i think in a cave near bruma, where it is a female boss and she is purely stamina based with her daggers and she can do some incredible damage to you if your not paying attention, she will kill you.
the second boss is very hard, he also live in a cave in craiglorn, when you enter the cave he also does some very serious and tremendous damage and he can clearly wipe out an entire group of 25 people which i have seen happen. and he is purely using just stamina based daggers as well. (hopefully you remember whom i refer to him as because hes the one where u enter the cave in craglorn and he keeps talking while he attacks and he allways acts like hes crazy.

the reason i bring up these 2 is because they possess incredible damage output, incredible survivability, and incredible skills we do not see in the skill lines for us to use.
and THAT is what i think we should have if we are using stamina base as a method of playstyle in Both pvp and pve.
it would certanly fix the imballance issues we stamina based users face against magicka based players.

Sord

kitsinni wrote: »

Sord wrote: »

A key point I think we are missing out on here for stam based builds is how the armor functions, how damage is done and how many lines focus on stam vs magic. I know some class powers scale with stam, some with health, and some with magica. However all class powers use magica and for the majority of builds people want to use their class powers because class powers are awesome, which in turn makes using a LA build more effective and stronger, which is not balanced, for the regen so you can use your class abilities more often and off set the LA with stam/stam regen to make up for the loss of MA stam; which is not how it should be done. The majority of the 5 powers on your bar will be class based because there are a total of 8 possible lines to choose from for magica and only 4 possible lines that are stam based (but really it is usually 3/4 magic to 1/2 stam). This is off balance for the use of stam based builds pushing for an optimal build to go LA because the majority of powers are Magica based.

I personally feel that if a class power scales off of health or stam it should cost stam and if it scales of magica it should cost magica. Most class power 60-70% seem to scale off of magica but the other 30-40% would change how a pure fighter or tank would be built in regards to armor. It would still leave hybrids as hybrids and maybe shift one power of the 5/10 they use to stam, and it will leave magic users as magic users because the majority of the class powers in most lines will still be 60-70 magica based, so it won't effect you as much as the current system is effecting stam based builds.

I for one am all for a rework in making some class powers that use stam and health as their primary scaler to become stam based powers.

It is actually 100% of class abilities scale off of Magicka. Some use weapon crit and some use spell crit but 100% scale from Magicka.

I have read other people post otherwise or I am getting the crit part mixed up and if a class powers crit is the bases and it is weapon then it should be stam if it is spell crit then magica. I wish I could find a source that is 100% what is used for what, whether crit on weapons or spell, or how ti scales. either way it can be changed.

edit: if that is the case, that is even worse and only strengths my stand point with armor.

Nihil

Sord wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Sord wrote: »

A key point I think we are missing out on here for stam based builds is how the armor functions, how damage is done and how many lines focus on stam vs magic. I know some class powers scale with stam, some with health, and some with magica. However all class powers use magica and for the majority of builds people want to use their class powers because class powers are awesome, which in turn makes using a LA build more effective and stronger, which is not balanced, for the regen so you can use your class abilities more often and off set the LA with stam/stam regen to make up for the loss of MA stam; which is not how it should be done. The majority of the 5 powers on your bar will be class based because there are a total of 8 possible lines to choose from for magica and only 4 possible lines that are stam based (but really it is usually 3/4 magic to 1/2 stam). This is off balance for the use of stam based builds pushing for an optimal build to go LA because the majority of powers are Magica based.

I personally feel that if a class power scales off of health or stam it should cost stam and if it scales of magica it should cost magica. Most class power 60-70% seem to scale off of magica but the other 30-40% would change how a pure fighter or tank would be built in regards to armor. It would still leave hybrids as hybrids and maybe shift one power of the 5/10 they use to stam, and it will leave magic users as magic users because the majority of the class powers in most lines will still be 60-70 magica based, so it won't effect you as much as the current system is effecting stam based builds.

I for one am all for a rework in making some class powers that use stam and health as their primary scaler to become stam based powers.

It is actually 100% of class abilities scale off of Magicka. Some use weapon crit and some use spell crit but 100% scale from Magicka.

I have read other people post otherwise or I am getting the crit part mixed up and if a class powers crit is the bases and it is weapon then it should be stam if it is spell crit then magica. I wish I could find a source that is 100% what is used for what, whether crit on weapons or spell, or how ti scales. either way it can be changed.

edit: if that is the case, that is even worse and only strengths my stand point with armor.

General rule. Class skills are magicka and spell damage to determine damage, if it is damage from a melee like source ( impale, teleport strike, and vield strike) crit is based off of weapon crit and goes against armor. If it is from a magic source it is spell crit and works against spell resistance. All stamina weapon skills is based off of weapon crit tho.

Sord

Nihil wrote: »

Sord wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Sord wrote: »

A key point I think we are missing out on here for stam based builds is how the armor functions, how damage is done and how many lines focus on stam vs magic. I know some class powers scale with stam, some with health, and some with magica. However all class powers use magica and for the majority of builds people want to use their class powers because class powers are awesome, which in turn makes using a LA build more effective and stronger, which is not balanced, for the regen so you can use your class abilities more often and off set the LA with stam/stam regen to make up for the loss of MA stam; which is not how it should be done. The majority of the 5 powers on your bar will be class based because there are a total of 8 possible lines to choose from for magica and only 4 possible lines that are stam based (but really it is usually 3/4 magic to 1/2 stam). This is off balance for the use of stam based builds pushing for an optimal build to go LA because the majority of powers are Magica based.

I personally feel that if a class power scales off of health or stam it should cost stam and if it scales of magica it should cost magica. Most class power 60-70% seem to scale off of magica but the other 30-40% would change how a pure fighter or tank would be built in regards to armor. It would still leave hybrids as hybrids and maybe shift one power of the 5/10 they use to stam, and it will leave magic users as magic users because the majority of the class powers in most lines will still be 60-70 magica based, so it won't effect you as much as the current system is effecting stam based builds.

I for one am all for a rework in making some class powers that use stam and health as their primary scaler to become stam based powers.

It is actually 100% of class abilities scale off of Magicka. Some use weapon crit and some use spell crit but 100% scale from Magicka.

I have read other people post otherwise or I am getting the crit part mixed up and if a class powers crit is the bases and it is weapon then it should be stam if it is spell crit then magica. I wish I could find a source that is 100% what is used for what, whether crit on weapons or spell, or how ti scales. either way it can be changed.

edit: if that is the case, that is even worse and only strengths my stand point with armor.

General rule. Class skills are magicka and spell damage to determine damage, if it is damage from a melee like source ( impale, teleport strike, and vield strike) crit is based off of weapon crit and goes against armor. If it is from a magic source it is spell crit and works against spell resistance. All stamina weapon skills is based off of weapon crit tho.

Thanks that is insightful but it just makes going LA that much more viable with magica vs HA/MA and going stam based. It is off balanced and some distinct class powers should be changed to stam based. NB and DK inparticular should have some stam based class powers where I can see Sorc and Temps primarily being magic based. I think this would really shut us stam builders up LOL

Shunravi

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

thats an excelent point, and i do use those other skills that are magicka based.
and thank you by the way for focusing on the thread subject and not my imperfections in speech.
the skills in the stamina based skill line tho, they should not be as weak as they are. - with the limited amount of skill slots -

"Oops. I made a mistake. Sorry.". Try it. It's fun, I promise.
For the record, I agree. I've got into a number of debates here that regen isn't the only issue with stamina builds. The skills themselves are, in many cases, very lackluster in comparison to their magicka equivalents.

oh, absolutely, np
the dark brotherhood and thieves guild,
the invisibility and casting invisibility is a must and thats magicka based. in addition to the sneaking which is all classes.
i do use magicka based spells and have done alot of experimenting with them.
i just prefer physical because when you look at the description of "my apologies for bringing this up but" nightblade - it implies dark brotherhood and thieves guild type play style and it involves clearly physical type actions and implied stamina type skills.

That is debatable in the lore... I recall a few mages in each organisation. Also nightblades are traditionally illusion, healing, and destruction mages in TES. But I digress...

I really find it rather sad that ZOS did not forsee this problem, and that players would gravitate to the class with the description that seemed the least involved with magic. To be fair, though, nightblade skills do conjure bound weapons, and TES also has shortrange touch spells...

But I see that more as a misconception than a class problem.

this is correct if you are only looking at oblivion and skyrim, because they even specificly mention in the dark brotherhood in skyrim that magicka base has equal uses especially from stealth in dark brotherhood.
i cannot remember the exact wording but, the old man in the db sanctuary said sopmething along the lines of:

"magicka should not be overlooked here in the dark brotherhood, because from stealth a fireball can kill just as easly as a hidden dagger can"

However, this was not so in morrowind,
morrowind's dark brotherhood was based on physical damage mingled with invisibility, the members allways used daggers or swords with poisen on them including stunn. my beliefs stem from that memory and is a deep passion with me based on that memory.

The brotherhood in Daggerfall definately had destruction magic. And just because you wield daggers, does not mean you are stamina built.

Also, this is from morrowinds class descriptions;

In-game Description: Nightblades are spellcasters who use their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have a sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforcers, assassins, or covert agents.
Specialization: Magic
Attributes: Willpower, Speed

And there were definately nightblades in both the Morag Tong and the Dark Brotherhood.

So, no, I would not say that spelcasting and mages were exclusive to Oblivion and Skyrim's guilds.

Nihil

Sord wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

Sord wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

Sord wrote: »

A key point I think we are missing out on here for stam based builds is how the armor functions, how damage is done and how many lines focus on stam vs magic. I know some class powers scale with stam, some with health, and some with magica. However all class powers use magica and for the majority of builds people want to use their class powers because class powers are awesome, which in turn makes using a LA build more effective and stronger, which is not balanced, for the regen so you can use your class abilities more often and off set the LA with stam/stam regen to make up for the loss of MA stam; which is not how it should be done. The majority of the 5 powers on your bar will be class based because there are a total of 8 possible lines to choose from for magica and only 4 possible lines that are stam based (but really it is usually 3/4 magic to 1/2 stam). This is off balance for the use of stam based builds pushing for an optimal build to go LA because the majority of powers are Magica based.

I personally feel that if a class power scales off of health or stam it should cost stam and if it scales of magica it should cost magica. Most class power 60-70% seem to scale off of magica but the other 30-40% would change how a pure fighter or tank would be built in regards to armor. It would still leave hybrids as hybrids and maybe shift one power of the 5/10 they use to stam, and it will leave magic users as magic users because the majority of the class powers in most lines will still be 60-70 magica based, so it won't effect you as much as the current system is effecting stam based builds.

I for one am all for a rework in making some class powers that use stam and health as their primary scaler to become stam based powers.

It is actually 100% of class abilities scale off of Magicka. Some use weapon crit and some use spell crit but 100% scale from Magicka.

I have read other people post otherwise or I am getting the crit part mixed up and if a class powers crit is the bases and it is weapon then it should be stam if it is spell crit then magica. I wish I could find a source that is 100% what is used for what, whether crit on weapons or spell, or how ti scales. either way it can be changed.

edit: if that is the case, that is even worse and only strengths my stand point with armor.

General rule. Class skills are magicka and spell damage to determine damage, if it is damage from a melee like source ( impale, teleport strike, and vield strike) crit is based off of weapon crit and goes against armor. If it is from a magic source it is spell crit and works against spell resistance. All stamina weapon skills is based off of weapon crit tho.

Thanks that is insightful but it just makes going LA that much more viable with magica vs HA/MA and going stam based. It is off balanced and some distinct class powers should be changed to stam based. NB and DK inparticular should have some stam based class powers where I can see Sorc and Temps primarily being magic based. I think this would really shut us stam builders up LOL

While light armor does have it perks, it still doesn't mean it is the best. Depending on how you want to build your character you will focus on different skills from your class. They gave each class different skills that are not all that reliant on your spell power / magicka pools. If you are a stamina build it is those combinations. While I am not totally against some peoples suggestion of having damage derived from the pool that is most predominant (don't agree with making class abilities weapon based as that can lead to some serious reworking of the skills to make sure they aren't broken due to how easy it is to raise weapon damage). I don't agree with making the class skills use stamina.

This for one will cause even more of a disadvantage for stamina builds as we wont be able dip into the magicka pool as often to fuel are support abilities.

In all reality they just need to keep working on balancing, I am currently in the act of learning all morphs for all skills ( will take a while) only after actual testing can I really say if stamina builds are really weak or if people are just missing some potent combinations.

I am primarily a hybrid sorc that focuses on duel wielding.

Nihil

Vuron wrote: »

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

you are talking about magicka based skills, this thread is about stamina, Not magicka.

And you're talking about weapon skill lines, which have nothing, at all, to do with Nightblades. Every class has access to DW. I know Sorcs that would like to play a DW, so this is not a NB issue.

To further correct your statement, all weapon skills with the exception of 1-hand/shield have at least 1 damage AoE.

Dual Wield has 1 AoE (Whirlwind), 1/5 skills is 20% of all DW skills is AoE.
2-Handed - Cleave, 1/5 is 20% AoE.
Bow - Volley and Arrow Spray - 2/5 is 40% of skills are AoE.

Compare this to Destro Staff - Impulse - 1/5 is 20% (the same as most weapons).

Just thought I would add onto this.

Duel wielding has a morph from hidden dagger that is also an aoe. Frontal cone aoe that deals a little bit more then 1/3 of whirling blades. So theoretically could be good to open with this and then switch to whirling blades.

2 hander has a small bonus aoe from light and heavy attack to one additional targets. And reverse slice has similar. Although not great aoe's by them self, can be really fun to open with heavy attack reverse slice from stealth, dead main enemy and half health to one/two buddies (pve).

Destruction staff also has the walls.

Fellhand_ESO

The biggest problem with stamina based skills is that they share a resource pool with combat maneuvers like block and dodge roll. Because of this they cannot be used as often as magicka skills. Perhaps if ZOS could create another resource bar to separate stamina abilities from block and dodge it could be a start in fixing the issue. I also think it would help if the strength of all abilities did not scale off the size of the resource pool but relied more on the character's progression in the skill line that particular ability belong to.

Tyr

Stranglehands wrote: »

It's simple. You get a magicka pool that gets bigger every time you level up. Even if you don't put any attrib points into it you've still got a load of magicka that's sitting there unused if you don't equip any magicka abilities. You can't make the sort of character you can make in the single player games that's totally useless at magic, it works differently. In ESO everyone is some kind of battlemage, that's what it boils down to

Yep, this is the core of the problem, they need to allow you to sacrifice magika for stamina in some BIG way. I realize that the restoration school in the spellcrafting system will have this as an option, but the problem is that it will take a slot on your skill bar.

If the restore stamina skill makes pure weapon builds more powerful than mixed and majicka heavy builds in exchange for less versatility, then it will be fine. If it's only on par or lower dps than the best mixed builds, then it will solve nothing in the long run.

Tyr

AlnilamE wrote: »

I really don't care that much what pool an ability draws from, so I'm trying to wrap my head around why this is such a big deal.

However, the suggestion of an FG ability that lest you convert Magica to Stamina, as the Sorc skill does Stamina to Magica seem like a good idea.

This is already confirmed to be a restoration school spell when the spellcrafting system is launched.

Cody

You can't make pure stamina builds because most weapon skills are absolute garbage compared to magic skills.

not only that, but class abilities fully rely on magic. so if you want to actually use your class abilities effectively, you have to have some magic. and since magic abilities are so much better than stamina abilities, it is possible to be super effective, going all magicka, while you wont be(unless you are just really good at the game) if you go for all stamina.
granted, not ALL weapon abilities are absolute garbage(sparks, venom arrow, snipe, for example) but most of them simply cant hold out against magic skills.

Tyr

Oh man, I just thought of a great idea!

How about a special shrine that allowed you to sacrifice your majicka for stamina. Sort of like a special mundus stone.

Tyr

Nihil wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

defilade__ESO wrote: »

In all the other Elder Scrolls games we could make a character that was all stamina, using weapons and either used no magicka at all, or very little. In ESO every class skill line relies on the use of Magicka, and the more magicka you have the more potent they will be.

I think if there were unique weapon skills specific to our various classes it would be a step towards us being able to create a real stamina build, and not force all of us to rely so much on magicka.

So what do you think? Would you like to see changes in the game so we could create pure stamina builds? Or do you like the predominance of magicka in ESO?

Each class also has abilities that gain little to no benefit from magicka, but uses magicka as a resource. DK use hp to determine their shield, and from the testing I have done ( low lvl DK) their igneous weapons weapon damage buff does not scale off of anything. THey have reflective scale that doesn't scale off of magicka, and I bet other skills I am not thinking of right now. Sorcerers have bolt escape, and the armor / spell resistance gain from their lightning form spell. Bound armor is also not determined by magicka as well. NB and Templars probably have things too, but due to lack of playing them enough I can't speak for them.

To want to build an entire stamina build you are not using one of your entire resources. Magicka users still use the stamina resource for blocking / dodging, it only makes sense that stamina users would try and pet magicka abilities to complement their play style. Being stuck on a name of a resource pool just seems limiting. If they ended up giving weapon skills magical aspects (lightning sword attacks) would you stop using those skills?

I have a sorc that primarily focuses on duel wielding and bow/resto staff. Although most of my skills are stamina based, I compliment them with the skills that aren't determined by magicka in the class skills.

I will try to explain this from my point of view.
Lets take a hypothetical nord that hates mages.
He would detest everything about magic and its users....but...
..he is happy to pray to kyne or the divines for assistance.

1 is 1st part magic if you like used directly by the individual where they are skilled in its use.
1 is 3rd party magic where they don't get their hands dirty but rely on the gods to provide such magic on their behalf.
1 is acceptable to such a nord and 1 is not.

So if I had access to curses, blessings and that kind of thing that relies on a 3rd party to do the dirty work it wouldn't be such an issue. Having to become a MAGE with weapons is something entirely different.

If I wanted to be a mage...I would be a mage (non-fighter). If I wanted to be a battle mage ...I wold be a fighter/mage. If I wanted to be a fighter I would be a fighter (non-mage).

So why would a warrior (non-mage) want a list full of magical mage skills (or even battle mage skills) instead of a list full of physical warrior skills ?

In a game that is balanced..there is no such thing as "Cant" be that.

Roleplaying choices are notorious for not performing optimally, while it can be fun, game developers can't design everything around choices that players want to role play. Say they did make pure stamina builds a viable dps strategy, then the players who use both magicka and stamina should ( and in most cases) would still be better, and then the problem would still exist. If players want they can role play that the magic they have is a divine gift in your example ( cleric dnd) and is only granted to them through some ordain blessing. It is a choice, but no matter what you will be setting limitations on yourself.

As other players have pointed out it is possible to make a pure stamina build, and probably beat most solo content with it (group content with a group maybe).

To compare this to earlier TES games is also not the best choice, from what I remember from skyrim ( and what my friends told me about oblivion) while pure melee was viable, it was no where near as optimal as magic with melee or magic could get with creativity. Skyrim you could have armies fight each other with magic, or you could sneak attack tagets one right after another by calming them. While you could do anything in the game with pure melee (the TES games aren't really known for their difficulty either), it was no where near as optimal as combining it with magic.

Well mixed builds would only be better because you always have a majicka pool and stamina pool. Make the majicka pool transferable in some way and have enough stamina abilities added through guilds and you've got balance.

Further, in Skyrim you could evetually craft armor/weapons that made you far more powerful than any majicka builds, though you would be less flexible.

The whole illusion skill line in skyrim was broken and unbalanced in the way you described it, because ultimately AI has limits.

ESO shouldn't emulate this.

Tyr

Hlaren_shortsheath wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

You mean you want to force me to play "your way" by changing my class skills into stamina skills? No.

Hybrid Builds are the best, period. And, Stamina Builds should NOT be viable. Refusing to use your Class Abilities should get you slaughtered.

What if I want to go unarmed and unarmored and use only Guild/World/Alliance War Skills and be as perfectly good for all content as a properly equipped character?

This is not an issue of "stamina builds should be good" this is an issue of general maturity. If you are mature, you study the mechanics and use what works while looking for new, better ways.

If you refuse to use the optimal build for trials or correct gameplay in PVP, don't cry when people drop you from groups.

The game should not be changed to appease you. Learn how to use your class abilities. Sorry the game doesn't allow you to have a great character when you refuse to use your abilities. You actually can go naked, and unarmed, you can go use all stamina abilities. And you will be as good as you should be.

thats an excelent point, and i do use those other skills that are magicka based.
and thank you by the way for focusing on the thread subject and not my imperfections in speech.
the skills in the stamina based skill line tho, they should not be as weak as they are. - with the limited amount of skill slots -

What? of course stamina builds should be viable. Otherwise the entire foundation of this as a TES game is a lie.

The entire horde of companions that crushed the Snow Elves didn't use majika at all.

Saying that you can't play a Nord pure staimina character and kick any majika user's ass in damage and/or survivability means that you're not a TES game.

Im pretty confident that they will eventually balance majika to stamina skill/spells/passives of some kind to bring pure staimina builds up to par with other top dps builds. If not, they have failed as a TES game.

Nihil

Tyr wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

defilade__ESO wrote: »

In all the other Elder Scrolls games we could make a character that was all stamina, using weapons and either used no magicka at all, or very little. In ESO every class skill line relies on the use of Magicka, and the more magicka you have the more potent they will be.

I think if there were unique weapon skills specific to our various classes it would be a step towards us being able to create a real stamina build, and not force all of us to rely so much on magicka.

So what do you think? Would you like to see changes in the game so we could create pure stamina builds? Or do you like the predominance of magicka in ESO?

Each class also has abilities that gain little to no benefit from magicka, but uses magicka as a resource. DK use hp to determine their shield, and from the testing I have done ( low lvl DK) their igneous weapons weapon damage buff does not scale off of anything. THey have reflective scale that doesn't scale off of magicka, and I bet other skills I am not thinking of right now. Sorcerers have bolt escape, and the armor / spell resistance gain from their lightning form spell. Bound armor is also not determined by magicka as well. NB and Templars probably have things too, but due to lack of playing them enough I can't speak for them.

To want to build an entire stamina build you are not using one of your entire resources. Magicka users still use the stamina resource for blocking / dodging, it only makes sense that stamina users would try and pet magicka abilities to complement their play style. Being stuck on a name of a resource pool just seems limiting. If they ended up giving weapon skills magical aspects (lightning sword attacks) would you stop using those skills?

I have a sorc that primarily focuses on duel wielding and bow/resto staff. Although most of my skills are stamina based, I compliment them with the skills that aren't determined by magicka in the class skills.

I will try to explain this from my point of view.
Lets take a hypothetical nord that hates mages.
He would detest everything about magic and its users....but...
..he is happy to pray to kyne or the divines for assistance.

1 is 1st part magic if you like used directly by the individual where they are skilled in its use.
1 is 3rd party magic where they don't get their hands dirty but rely on the gods to provide such magic on their behalf.
1 is acceptable to such a nord and 1 is not.

So if I had access to curses, blessings and that kind of thing that relies on a 3rd party to do the dirty work it wouldn't be such an issue. Having to become a MAGE with weapons is something entirely different.

If I wanted to be a mage...I would be a mage (non-fighter). If I wanted to be a battle mage ...I wold be a fighter/mage. If I wanted to be a fighter I would be a fighter (non-mage).

So why would a warrior (non-mage) want a list full of magical mage skills (or even battle mage skills) instead of a list full of physical warrior skills ?

In a game that is balanced..there is no such thing as "Cant" be that.

Roleplaying choices are notorious for not performing optimally, while it can be fun, game developers can't design everything around choices that players want to role play. Say they did make pure stamina builds a viable dps strategy, then the players who use both magicka and stamina should ( and in most cases) would still be better, and then the problem would still exist. If players want they can role play that the magic they have is a divine gift in your example ( cleric dnd) and is only granted to them through some ordain blessing. It is a choice, but no matter what you will be setting limitations on yourself.

As other players have pointed out it is possible to make a pure stamina build, and probably beat most solo content with it (group content with a group maybe).

To compare this to earlier TES games is also not the best choice, from what I remember from skyrim ( and what my friends told me about oblivion) while pure melee was viable, it was no where near as optimal as magic with melee or magic could get with creativity. Skyrim you could have armies fight each other with magic, or you could sneak attack tagets one right after another by calming them. While you could do anything in the game with pure melee (the TES games aren't really known for their difficulty either), it was no where near as optimal as combining it with magic.

Well mixed builds would only be better because you always have a majicka pool and stamina pool. Make the majicka pool transferable in some way and have enough stamina abilities added through guilds and you've got balance.

Further, in Skyrim you could evetually craft armor/weapons that made you far more powerful than any majicka builds, though you would be less flexible.

The whole illusion skill line in skyrim was broken and unbalanced in the way you described it, because ultimately AI has limits.

ESO shouldn't emulate this.

In skyrim you could also make enchants for armor that made all spells cost 0, and you could spam the ultimate skills to your hearts content. I made all my followers armor that also made them immune to all my spells too, and had 2 permanent atronuchs that wouldn't be damaged by my spells either XD. Enchanting in general was broken in skyrim, that and potions, as I could drink a potion and basically be immune to elements for a while.

Combat in skyrim was easy, thus why I never played skyrim for the combat. It was more for exploration and just amusement in general.

Rune_Relic

Nihil wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

defilade__ESO wrote: »

In all the other Elder Scrolls games we could make a character that was all stamina, using weapons and either used no magicka at all, or very little. In ESO every class skill line relies on the use of Magicka, and the more magicka you have the more potent they will be.

I think if there were unique weapon skills specific to our various classes it would be a step towards us being able to create a real stamina build, and not force all of us to rely so much on magicka.

So what do you think? Would you like to see changes in the game so we could create pure stamina builds? Or do you like the predominance of magicka in ESO?

Each class also has abilities that gain little to no benefit from magicka, but uses magicka as a resource. DK use hp to determine their shield, and from the testing I have done ( low lvl DK) their igneous weapons weapon damage buff does not scale off of anything. THey have reflective scale that doesn't scale off of magicka, and I bet other skills I am not thinking of right now. Sorcerers have bolt escape, and the armor / spell resistance gain from their lightning form spell. Bound armor is also not determined by magicka as well. NB and Templars probably have things too, but due to lack of playing them enough I can't speak for them.

To want to build an entire stamina build you are not using one of your entire resources. Magicka users still use the stamina resource for blocking / dodging, it only makes sense that stamina users would try and pet magicka abilities to complement their play style. Being stuck on a name of a resource pool just seems limiting. If they ended up giving weapon skills magical aspects (lightning sword attacks) would you stop using those skills?

I have a sorc that primarily focuses on duel wielding and bow/resto staff. Although most of my skills are stamina based, I compliment them with the skills that aren't determined by magicka in the class skills.

I will try to explain this from my point of view.
Lets take a hypothetical nord that hates mages.
He would detest everything about magic and its users....but...
..he is happy to pray to kyne or the divines for assistance.

1 is 1st part magic if you like used directly by the individual where they are skilled in its use.
1 is 3rd party magic where they don't get their hands dirty but rely on the gods to provide such magic on their behalf.
1 is acceptable to such a nord and 1 is not.

So if I had access to curses, blessings and that kind of thing that relies on a 3rd party to do the dirty work it wouldn't be such an issue. Having to become a MAGE with weapons is something entirely different.

If I wanted to be a mage...I would be a mage (non-fighter). If I wanted to be a battle mage ...I wold be a fighter/mage. If I wanted to be a fighter I would be a fighter (non-mage).

So why would a warrior (non-mage) want a list full of magical mage skills (or even battle mage skills) instead of a list full of physical warrior skills ?

In a game that is balanced..there is no such thing as "Cant" be that.

Roleplaying choices are notorious for not performing optimally, while it can be fun, game developers can't design everything around choices that players want to role play. Say they did make pure stamina builds a viable dps strategy, then the players who use both magicka and stamina should ( and in most cases) would still be better, and then the problem would still exist. If players want they can role play that the magic they have is a divine gift in your example ( cleric dnd) and is only granted to them through some ordain blessing. It is a choice, but no matter what you will be setting limitations on yourself.

As other players have pointed out it is possible to make a pure stamina build, and probably beat most solo content with it (group content with a group maybe).

To compare this to earlier TES games is also not the best choice, from what I remember from skyrim ( and what my friends told me about oblivion) while pure melee was viable, it was no where near as optimal as magic with melee or magic could get with creativity. Skyrim you could have armies fight each other with magic, or you could sneak attack tagets one right after another by calming them. While you could do anything in the game with pure melee (the TES games aren't really known for their difficulty either), it was no where near as optimal as combining it with magic.

So you can role play as that sorcerer....but the pure melee fighter cant ?
Sorry ..I can only view what you wrote hear as anti warrior and biased.

Combat balance mean one person on either side of the equation that can fight each other and stalemate. It doesn't/shouldn't matter how/what they build. Anyone who says...doing this will bork you has absolutely 0 grasp on what BALANCE actually means.

Even the videos are a circle of 3 players (mage/warrior/assassin) facing off with the concept of "different" but "balanced". Hence 'play the way you want'.."be who you want to be".

What you are saying is mage is ok assassin is ok but fighter can go stuff himself because the game design doesn't allow it ?

[edit: changed warrior to fighter to remain consistant with TES guilds]

Rune_Relic

Actually that makes me think up another point that troubles me.
If the videos and advertisements are about fighter / mage / assassin as per the guilds...what the hell do the classes actually represent ?

If we are supposed to see some resemblance between class and archetype. Should we see...
Mage = sorc (magicka)
Assassin = NB (stamina)
Fighter = DK & Temp (health)

..and if so why would Fighter archetype have 2 classes ? Why 4 classes instead of 3. The only reason I could come up with such a thing is if either DK or Temp is actually a jack of all trades or hybrid ?...
Mage = sorc
Assassin = NB
Fighter = DK
Mage/Assassin/Sorc = Templar ?

I know its not completely on topic ..just bothers me when I cant fathom the original reason for things. lol
/shrugs

To really understand a game you have to be able to make sense of it.....things like this make me struggle.

Soulshine

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Actually that makes me think up another point that troubles me.
If the videos and advertisements are about fighter / mage / assassin as per the guilds...what the hell do the classes actually represent ?

If we are supposed to see some resemblance between class and archetype. Should we see...
Mage = sorc (magicka)
Assassin = NB (stamina)
Fighter = DK & Temp (health)

..and if so why would Fighter archetype have 2 classes ? Why 4 classes instead of 3. The only reason I could come up with such a thing is if either DK or Temp is actually a jack of all trades or hybrid ?...
Mage = sorc
Assassin = NB
Fighter = DK
Mage/Assassin/Sorc = Templar ?

I know its not completely on topic ..just bothers me when I cant fathom the original reason for things. lol
/shrugs

To really understand a game you have to be able to make sense of it.....things like this make me struggle.

Hehe

Speaking as a Templar who has not been on these boards griping about my class, I supposed my opinion may not count for too much since I seem to be in a minority that is happy with what we can do...

That being said, I think out of all the classes (been playing them all since beta and seeing how they have changed...) I still think Templars are actually the best balanced within their own class skill lines and in the end they can make excellent healers, warriors, or mages, or anything else you care to make them in between depending on how they are built. Resource use, stamina or magicka really only compliments us instead of gimping us - IF you are geared correctly. Other classes gear correctly and still have issues. It should not be this way.

I think this happened to Templars more my accident than intent, considering the way everything has happened in this game. But I am happy for it. Now if I could only just get the dmg I want out of a 2H all the time without my Templar buff, I would be super happy