Full Templar Class Analysis

Nidwin

Francescolg wrote: »

DKs (using that spec) cast and recast Talons. If placed right, your opponent may roll dodge once but usually after the 2., 3. Talons they simply have no stamina left and dye! Because every skilled DK knows how good Talons is, beeing an infinitely chain-castable CC, they will use and reuse it all the time if necessary.

Used and abused by the AD NA Skeleton train. Very efficient, especially when followed by the usual and known AOE spam.

Tankqull

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Cinder storm is extremely easy to put your enemy into, particularly when you have mobs. Throw in Talons and its just that much better.

Sure it's easy to cast it on your enemy. It isn't easy to keep them inside it, they'll just roll out (and Talons won't stop them because Immobilise is also broken by rolling). Blinding Flashes on the other hand you can keep active by charging your enemy. If you're talking about PvE well, everything's easy in PvE.

well thats true but after rolling out of the fourth talon, negates any further rolling - and thats a pretty common tactic (use it my self on my DK, talon move behind at 5m+ range out of his melee range while beeing impossible to be cast at due to lack of loss when dk is behind you while beeing unable to turn around thx to the root) cinder storm is only used when you are attacked by multiple targets -> range attackers are handeld by reflective scales and those who try to melee you are comming to you and thus are affected by cinder storm.

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I realize the healer side of the class is definitely 'team player' but many of those team player abilities aren't even useful in a dungeon situation. It needs to be 12 man or mass pvp or they really underperform.

I'd say it's the opposite. Our two most effective support skills, Breath of Life and Luminous Shards, are more more useful in a 4-player group than in larger groups. Other skills (Nova, Rite of Passage, Repentance, Cleansing Ritual) are effective in any group situation, and are pretty good for solo play too.

thats again sth where we can discuss about for hours
the templer ulties are pure garbage, way to expensive for their effect and or duration. and on top nova and rite of passage both are effcted by spell rupt from bash, destro staffs or bows for what ever reason. rite of passage healing output on the other side is to low and only works in blob zergs as it is unable to compensate the dps of any dps class unless dmg lockouts due to sheer numbers come into place. (currently i´m using empowering sweep + soul assault - vamp is no option as it is a death sentence for a helaer in non zerg blobs))
i´m allways playing in a small group maximum number so far is 4 players our (templar) utility is extreamly situational cleansing ritual sounds nice on the paper, the problem is that has to be used as a synergy by my team mates - if it would cleanse 1 or 2 effects of grp members upon activation while still granting the synergy would help alot unless so efficient purge or cleanse are alot more practical - on the other hand in any zerg or solo situation the ritual is slightly ahead as both play styles are much slower paced in regards of battle ground shifting than small grp fights and thus the additional 30% heal buff can kick in.

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Rather than telling me how wonderful Rune Focus is with its 1250 SR/Armor boost, can you show me more than one instance where its useful?

Like I said, I use it as a healer and a ranged DPS caster. As a squishy 7-light armour Templar it helps with survivability, and I have no need to move unless powerful AoEs are flying about - and even then it costs almost nothing to recast. The +40 magicka regeneration (not subject to soft-capping) from Channelled Focus is also helpful for managing magicka, something Templars tend to have problems with; and it works even if you don't stand in the Focus.

In case you didn't read my other posts, this is PvE only. I never said Rune Focus is good in PvP, I only had a problem with what you said regarding armour and spell resistance.

[/quote]

well its again situational if the fights are stationary its an okish skill as it lowers inc dmg while adding a slight magica regain - if the magica regain is its only gimmick thx to battlefield shifting its not worth the slot as ~200magicka(after spell cost substraction) over 15seconds aint worth the slot.
and the reason are restictions to the skills wich in many cases make absolutly no sense.
why is piercing javelin range not extended while every other range ability in game is extended in cyrodiil?
why do templers have to suffer from this hilarious mortar style range attacks effectivly trippling the impact time or super slow paced projectiles?

ThatHappyCat

Francescolg wrote: »

DKs (using that spec) cast and recast Talons. If placed right, your opponent may roll dodge once but usually after the 2., 3. Talons they simply have no stamina left and dye! Because every skilled DK knows how good Talons is, beeing an infinitely chain-castable CC, they will use and reuse it all the time if necessary.

Every DK spams Talons, not just specific specs. I've duelled DKs who use Cinder Storm and I'm rarely if ever forced to stand in it for any length of time, even with Talons spam. Now in a zerg situation where you might expend stamina for other reasons it's different, but if you don't have enough stamina to dodge (much less CC break) in a zerg you're probably about to die.

And the discussion is about Cinder Storm vs Blinding Flashes. Blinding Flashes is a much stronger blind than Cinder Storm and if you stick to your target (not difficult) they can't escape it.

.....

You know, Templars also have a pretty abusable CC skill in Blazing Spear. The stun stacks ( normally, if someone is stunned further CCs have no effect; but with Blazing Spear it renews the duration), which means if your opponent doesn't have stamina to break free you can spam Blazing Spear and kill them while keeping them stunned.

Francescolg wrote: »

The resistances-ritual is rubbish in PvP.

I said the same thing.

Tankqull wrote: »

.....

We're not just talking about PvP here. Rite of Passage is great in PvE, but in PvP you're going to use Barrier for a support Ulti. Cleansing Ritual is again mostly for PvE (unless morphed to Purifying Ritual for a personal cleanse), in PvP you want to use Efficient Purge. Nova is indeed expensive for what it does, but a well-placed Solar Prison can still be pretty devastating in PvP.

.....

Don't get me wrong guys, I main Templar and love it, and I'd love to see buffs particularly with our ranged DPS. I don't however think it's all doom and gloom, and there's a lot of Templar skills that work great (particularly Blazing Spear: can you tell that I love this skill?).

dodgehopper_ESO

I love Templar as well, but I see problems with it from the Tanking side of things. If your concern is the DPS side of things though, I'm not sure why you didn't like my idea for Backlash and Eclipse. Backlash really needs to either be instant cast or do fire damage or a DoT of its own. I personally lean toward instant cast, since it can only apply to one target, and it can not be stacked by multiple players. It would also make it actually a reasonable skill for a tank to pick up, but also for a healer to pick up (depending on group dynamic). Neither role can afford to be wasting all that time channeling something when they should be controlling the battlefield or healing their team. The heal aoe has problems as well on large monsters of this ability. Eclipse on the other hand is just frustrating, because even the damage morph is completely ignored by all the npc's out there since it is considered a mez, and players can break out of it with ease. I'm not denying 1v1 it can be nice to drop this on a caster and keep dropping it til they burn themselves. Personally, I think the ability should be a sunfire DoT that also applies the mez.

Ironically, Dawn's Wrath abilities are just slow, and most certainly don't move at the speed of light. The only Templar ability that moves fast, moves too fast and overshoots you behind target. Reflecting light sluggishly moves across the map. Even the two spear toss abilities are relatively slow.

Also, I'm surprised no one else but me seems upset that Illuminate doesn't work. Perhaps it is because I'm a Tank at heart, and we're always the rare and few in MMO's. That spell resist is a big deal though, and it was a big part of my build. Without it, and without a reliable armor bonus, it relegates Templar to a healer role with some tankiness. Maybe it sounds like I'm splitting hairs here, but I do think it is an issue. The balance between Light Armor and Heavy Armor, our low magicka return, and high power costs make it difficult to play the 'shining knight' that Templar is clearly meant to be (at least one of those themes). Please don't misunderstand I'm not all doom and gloom here, just spitballing about what I see, experience and feel with a lot of time playing this class (and the others).

Khivas_Carrick

I have a thread reply somewhere on these forums where I make several suggestions for revamps, all of which cite the immense problem of animations for templar skills.

Nidwin

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Please don't misunderstand I'm not all doom and gloom here, just spitballing about what I see, experience and feel with a lot of time playing this class (and the others).

The issue with the Templar is what I would name the big MMORPG class balance paradox. This paradox coming from the PVE vs RvR (AvA/PvP) aspect of the game.

If this was a RvR MMORPG only, the Templar would actually see the nerf bat once ZOS removes all the imbecilities still around. In contrast to that the Templar seems useless in PVE endgame, except for solo gameplay and farming.

ThatHappyCat

Nidwin wrote: »

The issue with the Templar is what I would name the big MMORPG class balance paradox. This paradox coming from the PVE vs RvR (AvA/PvP) aspect of the game.

If this was a RvR MMORPG only, the Templar would actually see the nerf bat once ZOS removes all the imbecilities still around. In contrast to that the Templar seems useless in PVE endgame, except for solo gameplay and farming.

I somewhat agree, although I don't feel the issue is that big. The PvE issues of the Templar could be addressed without overpowering it in PvP: improving Templar ranged DPS +/- Tanking ability would produce more viable Templar builds in PvP but won't necessarily empower the existing Blazing Shield oriented builds.

Khivas_Carrick

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

Nidwin wrote: »

The issue with the Templar is what I would name the big MMORPG class balance paradox. This paradox coming from the PVE vs RvR (AvA/PvP) aspect of the game.

If this was a RvR MMORPG only, the Templar would actually see the nerf bat once ZOS removes all the imbecilities still around. In contrast to that the Templar seems useless in PVE endgame, except for solo gameplay and farming.

I somewhat agree, although I don't feel the issue is that big. The PvE issues of the Templar could be addressed without overpowering it in PvP: improving Templar ranged DPS +/- Tanking ability would produce more viable Templar builds in PvP but won't necessarily empower the existing Blazing Shield oriented builds.

Ways to fix Templar issues that will keep things balanced in PvP and PvE:

1) Change the attack animations from "holy mortar fire" to badass straight forward attacks that don't lag.

2) Fix our passives to actually be useful, like flat Spell Resist bonuses, everything procing Burning Light, or flat out Bonus to Heals. Silly little things like that.

3) Pick one for us damn it, Support or Damage Dealer or Tank or Healer, not one and none of the others. If you want a Templar to be the primo Support class, then make damn near every single thing we do heal the group. Not us, just the group. Blazing Spear? Each tick heals people standing in it and hurts enemies. Solar Barrage? Root enemies and/or boost nearby friendly's Spell Resist. Rune Focus? Bursts from the focal point, which is now you. Again, silly little things like that.

4) Give us a weapon synergy passive for 2H weapons for Dawn's Wrath, 1H/S for Aedric Spear, and Resto Staff for Restoring Light. Why? Because god damn it, it makes sense, and other classes should have something similar too, since each class is meant to follow a sort of archetype or guideline. Just saying.

Pmarsico9

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

Nidwin wrote: »

The issue with the Templar is what I would name the big MMORPG class balance paradox. This paradox coming from the PVE vs RvR (AvA/PvP) aspect of the game.

If this was a RvR MMORPG only, the Templar would actually see the nerf bat once ZOS removes all the imbecilities still around. In contrast to that the Templar seems useless in PVE endgame, except for solo gameplay and farming.

I somewhat agree, although I don't feel the issue is that big. The PvE issues of the Templar could be addressed without overpowering it in PvP: improving Templar ranged DPS +/- Tanking ability would produce more viable Templar builds in PvP but won't necessarily empower the existing Blazing Shield oriented builds.

Ways to fix Templar issues that will keep things balanced in PvP and PvE:

1) Change the attack animations from "holy mortar fire" to badass straight forward attacks that don't lag.

2) Fix our passives to actually be useful, like flat Spell Resist bonuses, everything procing Burning Light, or flat out Bonus to Heals. Silly little things like that.

3) Pick one for us damn it, Support or Damage Dealer or Tank or Healer, not one and none of the others. If you want a Templar to be the primo Support class, then make damn near every single thing we do heal the group. Not us, just the group. Blazing Spear? Each tick heals people standing in it and hurts enemies. Solar Barrage? Root enemies and/or boost nearby friendly's Spell Resist. Rune Focus? Bursts from the focal point, which is now you. Again, silly little things like that.

4) Give us a weapon synergy passive for 2H weapons for Dawn's Wrath, 1H/S for Aedric Spear, and Resto Staff for Restoring Light. Why? Because god damn it, it makes sense, and other classes should have something similar too, since each class is meant to follow a sort of archetype or guideline. Just saying.

I don't think we need to be support. Support in this game is either CC or healing.

And since everybody can put a resto staff on loadout 2, the idea of a Templar Support is stupid. Plus it makes the class unbalanceable.

Everybody should have the capability to tank, heal, ranged, or melee dps and do so on an equal level.

With the number of skill points available in this game, requiring investments into certain things (i.e. heavy armor for tanking) would've been perfectly acceptable.

Sasky

Tie to specific weapons? This game should strive for flexibility that you could build for any weapon without much of a difference.

Similarly you shouldn't be pigeon-holed into a particular role. Sure, let each class have it's specialty that they're slightly better at, but the other roles for that class should be on-par. Templars have the best 4-man healing, hands down. Tanking is very good, with some nice synergies. Single-target DPS is the main shortcoming.

Natjur

Templars in my view make good tanks, good healers, bad dps and having more issues then most with magic recovery.

Aedric Spears is our tanking line
Restoring light is our healing line
Dawn's Wrath was meant to be our dps line, but well, it fails.

Backlash (and its morphs) used to be instance cast, but they got changed to 1.5 second early in beta. Change this back to instance cast.

Eclipse (and its morphs) are not CC, so change it so you can not break out of it but have to use a purge instead to remove

Illuminate passive is broken and does nothing. Change it and make it DO something.

That should fix templar dps.
Restoring Spirit passive needs to be looked but that is another story.

Also, the Light Weaver passive, does anyone really get anything out of this passive? At end level you are using instance casts only so if this passive effected Breath of Life instead of Healing Ritual, it might be useful

dodgehopper_ESO

Natjur wrote: »

Templars in my view make good tanks, good healers, bad dps and having more issues then most with magic recovery.

Aedric Spears is our tanking line
Restoring light is our healing line
Dawn's Wrath was meant to be our dps line, but well, it fails.

Backlash (and its morphs) used to be instance cast, but they got changed to 1.5 second early in beta. Change this back to instance cast.

Eclipse (and its morphs) are not CC, so change it so you can not break out of it but have to use a purge instead to remove

Illuminate passive is broken and does nothing. Change it and make it DO something.

That should fix templar dps.
Restoring Spirit passive needs to be looked but that is another story.

Also, the Light Weaver passive, does anyone really get anything out of this passive? At end level you are using instance casts only so if this passive effected Breath of Life instead of Healing Ritual, it might be useful

These are all really good points, and sum up a lot of what I've been saying for a while. I would like to add though, that I do not believe Master Ritualist works. Based on the resuscitation I've been doing in pvp, I should have gotten a soul gem back (and I can see my soul gem count at all times because of a mod I have).

jrgray93

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Natjur wrote: »

Templars in my view make good tanks, good healers, bad dps and having more issues then most with magic recovery.

Aedric Spears is our tanking line
Restoring light is our healing line
Dawn's Wrath was meant to be our dps line, but well, it fails.

Backlash (and its morphs) used to be instance cast, but they got changed to 1.5 second early in beta. Change this back to instance cast.

Eclipse (and its morphs) are not CC, so change it so you can not break out of it but have to use a purge instead to remove

Illuminate passive is broken and does nothing. Change it and make it DO something.

That should fix templar dps.
Restoring Spirit passive needs to be looked but that is another story.

Also, the Light Weaver passive, does anyone really get anything out of this passive? At end level you are using instance casts only so if this passive effected Breath of Life instead of Healing Ritual, it might be useful

These are all really good points, and sum up a lot of what I've been saying for a while. I would like to add though, that I do not believe Master Ritualist works. Based on the resuscitation I've been doing in pvp, I should have gotten a soul gem back (and I can see my soul gem count at all times because of a mod I have).

It fills empty gems and never works unless you have one. It is a really misleading passive, or it is very poorly designed. I've reported it as a bug and nothing has been done.

Khivas_Carrick

Natjur wrote: »

Templars in my view make good tanks, good healers, bad dps and having more issues then most with magic recovery.

Aedric Spears is our tanking line
Restoring light is our healing line
Dawn's Wrath was meant to be our dps line, but well, it fails.

Backlash (and its morphs) used to be instance cast, but they got changed to 1.5 second early in beta. Change this back to instance cast.

Eclipse (and its morphs) are not CC, so change it so you can not break out of it but have to use a purge instead to remove

Illuminate passive is broken and does nothing. Change it and make it DO something.

That should fix templar dps.
Restoring Spirit passive needs to be looked but that is another story.

Also, the Light Weaver passive, does anyone really get anything out of this passive? At end level you are using instance casts only so if this passive effected Breath of Life instead of Healing Ritual, it might be useful

Aedric Spear = Melee and Tanking

Dawn's Wrath = Ranged and Crowd Control

Restoring Light = Heals and Support that comes from somewhere other than CC.

That's how it should be, and right now it kind of isn't, not without a lot more added in from other skill lines.

EDIT* also forgot to add in that to fix our DPS, simply "making things clear" won't do. It's how you make things clear that work. Making Backlash instant cast is not a DPS corrector, it will not completely fix things. It'll help, definitely it'll help, BUT if only one Templar can cast it or else others override it, then what's the point of using it? Make it so that everyone can cast it and voila, massive improvement for everybody.

Second, reduce the cast time on Solar and Dark Flare or greatly increase it's damage to make it comparable to other skills of it's type. Probably wouldn't hurt to change it's animation to something a little more straight forward than the mortar volley it currently resembles.

Make Vampire's Bane explode once it's finished it's DoT, or make it explode early if you reuse the skill again. That actually sounds awesome imho. I would love that lol

Other things would be minor fixes and tbh, in general, the biggest way to improve Templar DPS would be to make Burning Light 50% chance with Weapon Attacks and Skills and 100% chance with Aedric Spear Skills. That alone would probably fix like 70% of DPS issues with Templars.

Pmarsico9

If you look, the issues lie largely with being the only class with a skill line (Restoring Light) that is only dedicated and flexible for support and healing.

As such, I think Dawn's Wrath should have Backlash and Eclipse reworked to be pure damage abilities to support the class. The cast times of Solar Flare and Backlash destroy their usage for melee and the class has no viable ranged spec.

Khivas_Carrick

Possible Future Changes ( @ZOS you should totally do this) That Would Make Templars Viable But Not Overpowered:

Backlash and all it's morphs - Instant Cast. That's it, really. Oh, and for Purifying Light, let the pool be much larger and possibly remove one negative effect from a player.

Eclipse - Change this to a full on damage spell. Templar's don't need a spell reflect that badly, but we do need legit means to blow stuff up, especially from afar. That said, try this:

Eclipse - Deals X Magic Damage and additional Y Magic Damage over 10 Seconds.

Total Dark - Deals X Magic and Y Magic over time, Target Deals 5% less damage during the duration of this skill.

Unstable Core - Same as Eclipse in my rewrite, and actually the same as the skill was originally, just with grossly increased damage and a fiery explosion at the end of it's duration for some burst damage aid there.

Solar Flare - Reduce the cast time to .5, up the damage slightly. Great potential to make this the bread and butter damage ability of the Dawn's Wrath skill line.

Solar Barrage - Great potential to make this into a bread and butter of tank utility for Templars. You know how Talons work for DKs? Basically make it so Soloar Barrage makes it so that adds and enemies caught in it get rooted in fire or something.

Darkflare - This would actually be fine as is if it kept the same buffs mentioned to Solar Flare, and a great PvP move.

I would change things like Blinding Light but that's nice Tank utility there, as well as Vampire's Bane. I'd love to make it so it explodes at the end of the duration to hit nearby enemies or something, but I digress.

Pmarsico9

Backlash and all it's morphs - Instant Cast. That's it, really. Oh, and for Purifying Light, let the pool be much larger and possibly remove one negative effect from a player.

Everything is fine except for the quoted above.

This means only one Templar could ever attain maximum damage. Backlash overwrites itself from different casters. If it did not, it would yield to worse PVP play than exists now.

Purifying light is garbage. Change it to a straight DoT morph that can proc instant cast Dark/Solar Flares. Adds depth and dynamic play for both melee and casters.

Remember, the issue with Temps is that they don't scale well with their class skills so magicka-based builds aren't that great. This would go a long way since the individual damage of Backlash and Solar/Dark Flare without a cast time would actually be very good.

Khivas_Carrick

I should've clarified that it would work as to let multiple people stack Backlash and all it's morphs, since you know, that should be a *** given, PvP or not. The debuffs shouldn't stack, no, but the attack itself should work as such to optimize group play and promote having more than one Templar in a group.

Surfinginhawaii

This was a very interesting read. I'm almost vet level as a templar and my other character is a V14 dragonknight. I love playing a templar but after reading all the post you have me worried.

Khivas_Carrick

If you heal as a Templar you'll be fine. If you're a DPS, good luck, and in my advice as one, go with a Stamina Build, it's easier to not suck with.

booksmcread

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

If you heal as a Templar you'll be fine. If you're a DPS, good luck, and in my advice as one, go with a Stamina Build, it's easier to not suck with.

Sad, but true. I do better dps in in trials with a 2-handed stamina build than I do with a magicka-based caster one.

Surfinginhawaii

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

... go with a Stamina Build, it's easier to not suck with.

Noooo, I was too late and I went with a Magicka build. Deltia Gaming creates a pretty bada** templar vampire that is a stamina build.