Please Buff Melee Weapons

Daethz

Melee weapons are doing much less damage than Both Destruction Staff and Restostaff Ability's and Builds

This is obvious and has been proven dozens to hundreds of times over, all it requires is actually logging the data and you too could prove it for yourself.

Many debates out there of "Why" staff builds are better, here is a compilation:

1. Stamina also being used for Sprinting,Blocking and other basic combat movements.
2. Stamina passives being buggy, this has been an improving situation.
3. Stamina skills not scaling in damage as much as Magicka counterparts.
4. Stamina skills not having as much utility as magicka counterparts.
5. Stamina skills costing more stamina than magicka of their magicka counterparts.
6. Light armor being generally better than medium and heavy counterparts for dps.
7. Light armor not really being a viable option to melee weapon users.
8. Lack of community outcry for balance issues, mass adoption of the "Better Option" (Most people switching to staffs and or light armor without complaining.)

FYI any form of communication from ZOS on this matter would be a great sign for the melee and stamina community.

khele23eb17_ESO

...and bows.

Comaetilico

1) this is actualy one if not THE biggest problem... they are tring to lessen it by increasing the cost reduction for dodge and sprint from medium armor but it still feel a little too much (especialy since there is no reduction for break free that is what you use the most in PvP...)

2) as said is progressing... still not optimal but there is also a lot of magika passive not working...

3) is actualy incorrect... stamina and magika scale in the same way... the difference is in the "weapon damage" vs "spell power" ... spell power scale much better... (almost twice as better as weapon damage) with the last patch they greatly limited spellpower against weapondamage (spellpower cap at 130 against weapon damage cap at 190)

4) this is not actualy true... there are some stamina skill with some god utility... and ther eis plenty of magika ability that lack utility... the real problem is that a magika user can pick up his skill from a much larger range of lines... while a stamina user only have the 2 weapon he is using, the fighter guild (that is not one of the best line in the game...) and the assault line (that only have 2 skill)... this is what make stamina build feel like they don't have utility... that is to say the lack of alternative abilites... once you chose your weapon you only have 6 other skill to pick from... while a magika user after the weapon choice still have 26 skill to choose from ^^')

5) again not correct... it's true that stamina skill have an higher BASE cost than magika skill (actualy not all... ther eis plenty of magika skill that cost a lot...) but 3 out of 4 stamina weapon also have a passive that reduce the cost on top of the medium armor cost reduciont... so where magika user get a 21% cost reduction... stmaina users can get up to 41%... that put the skill cost on the sam level if not lower for stamina...

6) this is true... but is also something that they seem to be working on... what actualy still make light armor superior to medium is the spell penetration the amount of penetration by itslef is quite good but if you pair it up with sharpened weapon it turn into 100% penetration (actualy it will go much higher that what you need for a 100% penetration...) due to a bug... once that bug is solved this will tune down the superiority of light armor another bit... and if you consider that there is quite a lot of skill that reduce the target armor compared to spell resistance reduction it should even out (against resist you have your own penetration against armor you have debuff to reduce it...)... in its actual shape medium armor trade a 42% penetration for a 11% crit rate... the trade is not quite right... and I feel it could be balanced a little... but certainly it is batter than what we actualy have due to the bug that is a 100% penetration against a 11% crit ^^'

7) mmm really don't know how to comment on this... light armor is not viable for melee useer just like medium is not viable for magika users ^^'

8) on this I can't really say that you'r right... ther is plenty of outcry (and mostly justified until this last patch... that really helped a lot with stamina builds...) for stamina inferiority against magika (melee being 75% of the stamina usage makes it a cry for melee as well)... there is much more cry for this than there was for vampires... more than there is for impulse spam (and note that most of those cring against impulse also put the stamina vs magika argument in their cry...)


my personal conclusion... melee and stmaina in general are stil lower performance than magika... but the situation has greatly improved in last few pathces (especialy the 1.3 have made a lot for stamina users... with ultimate scaling on the higher stat and the additiona of much more usuefull stamina/weapon oriented item sets...)

it can still be improved but just fixing some of the major bug around could be enough to bring them to an almost equal footing... making now some ability damage twiking can turn later in the 2 side switching once spell penetration get fixed...

AshySamurai

Comaetilico wrote:

so where magika user get a 21% cost reduction

28% if you are playing breton templar.

Comaetilico wrote:

stmaina users can get up to 41%

45% if you are templar.

marcmyb14_ESO

With the current stamina system, no small change will help. Just reducing costs or buffing damages to whatever end will still result in stamina builds being much weaker than magicka. IMO, we should have a separate resource entirely for things like sprint, dodge, block, interrupt, you know, the stuff everyone can do whether or not they use stamina as a primary resource. I also think the actual skill lines need to be changed. For example, two handed weapons will always be weak because skills like critical charge have little use beyond the initial charge, wrecking blow has a long induction (so we can't use light/heavy attacks in between), carve does hardly any damage, executioner does even less damage except to low health targets, and rally is a buff. Only use I can see for two handed right now is sneaking up behind targets and one-shotting them with wrecking blow (which doesn't make much sense because two-handers usually don't coincide with sneaking). I haven't tested dual-wielding recently, but bow does seem to be suffering from low dps as well.

Apothecy

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

IMO, we should have a separate resource entirely for things like sprint, dodge, block, interrupt, you know, the stuff everyone can do whether or not they use stamina as a primary resource.

I can agree to this. Why not something called fatigue? It could be the bar under stamina that's currently only used for horse stamina. When not on your horse, why not use that for your fatigue? I definitely think a separate bar for those actions would be a step in the right direction to balancing stamina and magicka users.

Comaetilico

AshySamurai wrote: »

Comaetilico wrote:

so where magika user get a 21% cost reduction

28% if you are playing breton templar.

Comaetilico wrote:

stmaina users can get up to 41%

45% if you are templar.

than it's 29 for a breton sorc and 46 for stamina sorc :P

but the bulk of the reduction still come from armor and weapon passives ^^

Kego

marcmyb14_ESO wrote: »

With the current stamina system, no small change will help. Just reducing costs or buffing damages to whatever end will still result in stamina builds being much weaker than magicka. IMO, we should have a separate resource entirely for things like sprint, dodge, block, interrupt, you know, the stuff everyone can do whether or not they use stamina as a primary resource.

That is fine. In Dark Age of Camelot you had to use your Stamina for sprinting as well but with a Bard or Skald you got a nice Grp Buff that gave a massive Stamina Regen Buff, that you could Sprint for ever as long as it was active.

It is all around costs and Regeneration. There is no need for a third Ressource Bar.

I also think the actual skill lines need to be changed. For example, two handed weapons will always be weak because skills like critical charge have little use beyond the initial charge, wrecking blow has a long induction (so we can't use light/heavy attacks in between), carve does hardly any damage, executioner does even less damage except to low health targets, and rally is a buff. Only use I can see for two handed right now is sneaking up behind targets and one-shotting them with wrecking blow (which doesn't make much sense because two-handers usually don't coincide with sneaking). I haven't tested dual-wielding recently, but bow does seem to be suffering from low dps as well.

We currently have 2 Staff Weapons with one for DMG and one for Restoration. Than we have 4 Weapons with Sword and Shield for Tanking, Dual Wield for Single Target DPS, 2Handers for AOE and Execution. The only Weapon without a role is Bow. It has way to less DMG for Single Target, to less DMG for AOE, and to less CC for an AOE CC Class.

If ZOS would bring Stamina up in Line, you could run with Dual Wield / 2Handers a really powerful combination. But Bows? Don't know where they want it to stay. It is a Ranged Weapon but there is no second Ranged Weapon to rely on.

Maybe it would be good to give Dual Wield more Debuff Effects and Bows more Poison DMG that stacks. On that way, Dual Wield and Bows could be used for Single Target DPS. 2Handers with some tweaks are for AOE-DMG CC and Execution.

Kego

....

Khivas_Carrick

When I was playing this back around May, I was a guy who wore 5 pieces of light armor with 1 Medium and 1 Heavy (I think, I'm currently waiting on a patch to finish loading) and I walked around wielding a 2H sword and speced for mostly magicka. Essentially I was a melee support caster, using the weapon to beat things up with 2 skills from the 2H line, a DoT from the Dawn's Wrath, and Puncturing Strikes for DPS, and then either a heal or support spell for whatever situation that came up.

I wasn't exactly the best at anything, but I was always taken along due to the immense utility, and to be honest, I didn't mind it. What I did mind though was the solo grind, and that said, I must ask/say that Melee, Stamina, Medium, and Heavy armors all need buffs, but from what I saw of the future updates, it seems ZoS is finally getting around to doing what they said they were going to do.

Daethz

I never see Dualwielding or Twohand players anymore, anywhere, even In Riften.
Everyone either has a staff or the occasional bow or shield.

I myself am trying to respec into destrostaff, but it is.. so boring to me.

One of the major issues with stamina builds, is simply, alot of spells don't even get buffed by stamina or weapon damage. They are fixing this slowly, fighters guild is being improved in 1.4 I believe.

But the problem is deeper than that. Spells that already use stamina/weapon damage are not matching up to the damage of their magicka counterparts.

Medium armor is also not matching up to Light Armor.

Which is essentially strike three for stamina builds, when counting spells not using stamina/wep damage, stamina spells simply doing less damage and medium armor being worse than light.

Khivas_Carrick

I use a 2H for my main set and a sword and board for when I feel like tanking or even healing using my Templar Skills, as unoptimal as they may be. That said, I agree with everything you said; melee weapons and armor need a massive buff.

Daethz

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

...and bows.

Interestingly enough bows are being buffed in 1.4 but Melee weapons aren't being touched, again.
Plus melee weapons have actually been under-performing bow.

khele23eb17_ESO

Daethz wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

...and bows.

Interestingly enough bows are being buffed in 1.4 but Melee weapons aren't being touched, again.
Plus melee weapons have actually been under-performing bow.

Im not that impressed with the bow buffs in 1.4. Some fixes, and cost reduction of 2 skills which are not that good to begin with (compared to magicka alternatives). Well, I guess something is better than nothing. And yes... melee needs some attention.

AshySamurai

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Well, I guess something is better than nothing.

Exactly. Melee dont even have a chance. It drain stamina very fast, and you also need block/dodge because with bows you can be distant from fight, but with any melee you are in the middle of battle.

Khivas_Carrick

Again, no idea why ZoS hates melee and stamina builds.

AshySamurai

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Again, no idea why ZoS hates melee and stamina builds.

All in ZOS roll magika build and dont want to nerf their builds? lol

Khivas_Carrick

That would make sense, but then why the hate towards Templars? lol

ArcVelarian

1: Nerf cost of stamina based attacks
2: Buff damage of clicks attacks considerably for 2h,dual-wield, sword/shield, Bow (by at least 50%).
3: Make medium armor give some armor penetration.
4: Buff melee damage boost given by heavy armor

Daethz

ArcVelarian wrote: »

1: Nerf cost of stamina based attacks
2: Buff damage of clicks attacks considerably for 2h,dual-wield, sword/shield, Bow (by at least 50%).
3: Make medium armor give some armor penetration.
4: Buff melee damage boost given by heavy armor

^

Khivas_Carrick

Daethz wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

1: Nerf cost of stamina based attacks
2: Buff damage of clicks attacks considerably for 2h,dual-wield, sword/shield, Bow (by at least 50%).
3: Make medium armor give some armor penetration.
4: Buff melee damage boost given by heavy armor

^

This is pretty much the short version of what has been suggested hundreds of times over. You guys are taking too long with "balancing" things and considering the possibilities. For the love of God just do it already and let us deal with the repercussions.

Cody

ALL melee weapons need a buff. both in damage and abilities

melee weapons(and bow; a little, but not as bad in my opinion) really need better abilities. some of the melee weapon abilities iv used are absolute garbage, and i am actually worried if ill be able to be effective in PvP due to them. the 2H skill line needs some block penetration.(my 2H battle axe should not be getting stopped by a staff;I dont care, nor does it matter, that shield has the passives for it. 90% of my damage from 2H weapons is getting blocked by staves and weapons. that is ridiculous) dual wield, in my opinion, needs more abilities aimed toward draining stamina/magicka(the AOE is terrible) and one handed and shield needs some actual tanking abilities, besides a 15 second taunt that can only be used on an enemy 3 times. though shield bash is nice.

and damage needs to be a little higher. just a bit more.

Daethz

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Daethz wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

1: Nerf cost of stamina based attacks
2: Buff damage of clicks attacks considerably for 2h,dual-wield, sword/shield, Bow (by at least 50%).
3: Make medium armor give some armor penetration.
4: Buff melee damage boost given by heavy armor

^

This is pretty much the short version of what has been suggested hundreds of times over. You guys are taking too long with "balancing" things and considering the possibilities. For the love of God just do it already and let us deal with the repercussions.

Exactly, inaction just makes a situation worse, especially when its already super broken, seriously, just a 15% buff to all stamina spell damages would atleast help a little bit, might actually be viable in one or two situations after that.

But wouldn't be enough. Not at the rate magicka and staffs are destroying them right now.

khele23eb17_ESO

Daethz wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Daethz wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

1: Nerf cost of stamina based attacks
2: Buff damage of clicks attacks considerably for 2h,dual-wield, sword/shield, Bow (by at least 50%).
3: Make medium armor give some armor penetration.
4: Buff melee damage boost given by heavy armor

^

This is pretty much the short version of what has been suggested hundreds of times over. You guys are taking too long with "balancing" things and considering the possibilities. For the love of God just do it already and let us deal with the repercussions.

Exactly, inaction just makes a situation worse, especially when its already super broken, seriously, just a 15% buff to all stamina spell damages would atleast help a little bit, might actually be viable in one or two situations after that.

But wouldn't be enough. Not at the rate magicka and staffs are destroying them right now.

Theyd be nerfed back to crap within a month due to PvP. They need to implement targeted changes to skills to provide better resource management and sustained damage (not burst).

Khivas_Carrick

Honestly, for PvE, even a little PvP I think, simply raising the weapon damage of light and heavy attacks, say......35% for light and 20% for heavy, and then grossly increasing the wind-up speed for heavy attacks would do wonders for melee weapon users.

Then worry about the skills themselves, mainly the shitastic comparison going on right about now.

ArcVelarian

Cody wrote: »

and damage needs to be a little higher. just a bit more.

Just "a bit more"? I'd say considerably given that melee doesn't have a stat like Spell Penetration...

Kego

Of cause there is: It is called Armor Penetration. You can get it via

• Weapon Enchants (to yourself)
• Armor Set 5er Bonus (to yourself)
• 40% from Nightblades Surprise Attack (direct debuff to the target armor)
• 75% from Nightblades Mark (only for yourself)
• 40% from Dragon Knights Burning Breath (direct debuff to the target armor)
• 40% from 1 Hand/Schild Ransack Skill (direct debuff to the target armor)

Khivas_Carrick

Those are significantly harder to obtain in a sense, not while all Light Armor has to do is toss on a few pieces and BAM done.

Kego

You mean like Medium Armor toss on and BAM

• 21% Crit Chance
• 28% Dogde roll cost reduce
• 14% Skillcost reduce
• 21% faster Sprint
• 42% Sneak cost reduction

The only useless trait at Medium Armor is Agility. Cause Attack Speed is meaningless in this Game.
Maybe change it to 1/2% Stamina Gain with Weapon Attacks.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Hey folks, we don't have granular details to share yet as a lot of this is active work in progress, but we are looking at giving you more ways to generate stamina as well as reviewing the overall balance of the stamina abilities.

AshySamurai

That's a good news! Thanks @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌!