Changing armor set bonus but no change to Impenetrable trait yet?

Erock25

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

It needs to stay. Crafted gear with Impenetrable is the only thing that's better than PvE dropped gear, and it's what allows PvP players to retain a gear edge in Cyrodil. If Impenetrable is nerfed, then you will need to do trials to get best-in-slot gear (at least for casters). I've had enough of games where PvE raids are the key to PvP gear.

Note -- I play a sorc, so Impenetrable is especially tough on me. It eliminates the sorc class-based heal (Critical Surge). None of the other classes have this problem. But it needs to stay, as the primary divider between PvE and PvP best-in-slot kit.

But changing it to reduce crit dmg is basically the same thing (best pvp trait) and it allows sorc to self heal.

But nerfs Medium Armor Stealthers who rely on the opening crit.

we've went over this before.

Just as you automatically crit from stealth even with 0% crit rating, you could automatically bypass impenetrable with a stealth crit. In fact, I don't even think stealth attacks are considered CRITS. They are their own thing.

Samadhi

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

It needs to stay. Crafted gear with Impenetrable is the only thing that's better than PvE dropped gear, and it's what allows PvP players to retain a gear edge in Cyrodil. If Impenetrable is nerfed, then you will need to do trials to get best-in-slot gear (at least for casters). I've had enough of games where PvE raids are the key to PvP gear.

Note -- I play a sorc, so Impenetrable is especially tough on me. It eliminates the sorc class-based heal (Critical Surge). None of the other classes have this problem. But it needs to stay, as the primary divider between PvE and PvP best-in-slot kit.

But changing it to reduce crit dmg is basically the same thing (best pvp trait) and it allows sorc to self heal.

But nerfs Medium Armor Stealthers who rely on the opening crit.

we've went over this before.

It also nerfs crit-build Nightblades.

I can crit fine against full Impenetrable build as it is now.

Buffing Impenetrable to reduce crit damage would drastically decrease Nightblade's damage output.

Sadae

Maybe people should stop obsessing over crits. Next thing you know they'll be crying to nerf Armor because it hinders their damage as well.

Erock25

Sadae wrote: »

Maybe people should stop obsessing over crits. Next thing you know they'll be crying to nerf Armor because it hinders their damage as well.

Did you even read the thread? Sorc need crits for their only significant in combat self heal. I didn't design Sorc to be dependent on crits, the devs did.

Samadhi

Erock25 wrote: »

Sadae wrote: »

Maybe people should stop obsessing over crits. Next thing you know they'll be crying to nerf Armor because it hinders their damage as well.

Did you even read the thread? Sorc need crits for their only significant in combat self heal. I didn't design Sorc to be dependent on crits, the devs did.

I support changing Sorceror's Critical Surge self-heal mechanic to a 50% chance on all hits.

Ezareth

As a max rank Sorc who has 40+ days played in Cyrodiil I have to say the notion that our only battlefield heal is critical surge is absurd.

I've never used Critical surge in PVP and I'm easily one of the most survivable sorcs in the game right now. We can stack shields to mitigate damage done to us that are not dependent upon us doing damage to extend our lives. Crystal fragments heals for 5% of our health each cast (instant casts should be 90%+ of your crystal frag casts). We have excellent defensive abilities like ball lightning and we can convert our stamina to completely replenish our health and magicka. I run with grand healing on my main bar and unlike critical surge I can use it to heal others as well as myself.

Just because you find a certain build not as viable as you'd like it to be doesn't mean something else should be nerfed because you can't think outside of the builds that most of the other mindless sorcs out there are using.

I see more and more of the top sorcs using the exact same setup out there and they are all easily countered and predictable.

Krentar_RNX

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

We can stack shields to mitigate damage done to us that are not dependent upon us doing damage to extend our lives.

Like the other classes (not sure about NBs).

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Crystal fragments heals for 5% of our health each cast (instant casts should be 90%+ of your crystal frag casts).

Very reliable heal :-(

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

We have excellent defensive abilities like ball lightning

Agree but we arent talking about defensive abilities. Im sure that the other classes also have some unique abilities and also still have offensive/defensive tools or heals. (hello reflective scales etc)

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

we can convert our stamina to completely replenish our health and magicka.

its only good for kitting long distances when someone chase you, very situational imho.

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I run with grand healing on my main bar and unlike critical surge I can use it to heal others as well as myself.

But this is a horrible heal unless you stack it several times :-( i think that people is looking for something like the fragment/dark magic passive heal but slightly more reliable without being OP.

Ezareth

Krentar_RNX wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

We can stack shields to mitigate damage done to us that are not dependent upon us doing damage to extend our lives.

Like the other classes (not sure about NBs).

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Crystal fragments heals for 5% of our health each cast (instant casts should be 90%+ of your crystal frag casts).

Very reliable heal :-(

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

We have excellent defensive abilities like ball lightning

Agree but we arent talking about defensive abilities. Im sure that the other classes also have some unique abilities and also still have offensive/defensive tools or heals. (hello reflective scales etc)

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

we can convert our stamina to completely replenish our health and magicka.

its only good for kitting long distances when someone chase you, very situational imho.

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I run with grand healing on my main bar and unlike critical surge I can use it to heal others as well as myself.

But this is a horrible heal unless you stack it several times :-( i think that people is looking for something like the fragment/dark magic passive heal but slightly more reliable without being OP.

Every class has a tradeoff for putting some sort of healing ability on their bar.

Critical surge is no different but it is not a reliable source of heals since you can't always guarantee you're doing damage and you can't guarantee you can crit your target. Impenetrable hurts sorcs no harder than any other class. Too many people out there are 1-trick ponies using this ability and aren't learning how to play their class out there any other way.

I disagree on Dark exchange. I use it in combat constantly. I know sorcs who couple it with immovable to limit being interrupted while using it. It is easy to bolt escape to LoS someone targeting you then use Dark exchange to fill your health and magicka. If I'm in a position where I can't reliably heal myself using dark exchange or if grand healing isn't efficient enough for me then I'll switch to my off bar and spam Harness Magicka and conjured ward until I can get to a place I can heal. If only 1 person is attacking you, they can't burst through both of those shields more efficiently than it costs you to replace them.

No other class can refill both their magic and health bars practically twice using a bar of stamina. Everyone seems to be arguing for all classes to have similar abilities and capabilities and that is what makes PVP boring. Every class should be unique in it's own way with strengths particular to that class.

idk

With crit chance so easy to get, and more weapon set bonus with crit with 1.3 on PTS there needs to be a degree of defense against it. There is absolutely no down side to stacking crit chance in this game and more opportunity to get more for weapon builds.

Morvul

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

With crit chance so easy to get, and more weapon set bonus with crit with 1.3 on PTS there needs to be a degree of defense against it. There is absolutely no down side to stacking crit chance in this game and more opportunity to get more for weapon builds.

im not disputing that there needs to be a defense against crit stacking.
I don't think "getting rid" if impenetrable via a massive nerf would be the way to go.
However, I would like to see some sort of opportunity cost to impenetrable: If I want to be defended against crits, I in turn give up something else.
The obvious thing for "something else" would be the other armor traits: currently, they just are not worth it, when compared to impenetrable.

give those other traits a significant boost, and suddenly people need to decide: do I want crit defense, or do I want "something else" - allowing a serious metagame to develop.

currently the decission is: do I want crit defense, or do I not want to PvP?


PS: there is a downside to stacking crit:
you give up a siceable chunk of pimary stats, you give up a siceable chunk of penetration stats, you give up alternative set bonuses...
so there IS an opportunity cost to getting crit - but there currently is no opportunity cost to getting impenetrable and therefore crit defense

Erock25

Morvul wrote: »

PS: there is a downside to stacking crit:
you give up a siceable chunk of pimary stats, you give up a siceable chunk of penetration stats, you give up alternative set bonuses...
so there IS an opportunity cost to getting crit - but there currently is no opportunity cost to getting impenetrable and therefore crit defense

And also one of the largest opportunity costs is Inner Light on both of your skill bars. 2 of 10 total skill slots spent on crit is huge.

Maverick827

Samadhi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sadae wrote: »

Maybe people should stop obsessing over crits. Next thing you know they'll be crying to nerf Armor because it hinders their damage as well.

Did you even read the thread? Sorc need crits for their only significant in combat self heal. I didn't design Sorc to be dependent on crits, the devs did.

I support changing Sorceror's Critical Surge self-heal mechanic to a 50% chance on all hits.

That would be a PvE nerf, as you can get above 50% crit fairly easily.

Why not just have Impenetrable reduce the potency of crits? Why not learn from other MMOs that had to do the same thing with their PvP stats?

Attorneyatlawl

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

(10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece)

Is that how impenetrable works? Do you have a source?

Because when i was researching this a month or so back, i came upon the explanation that impenetrable increases armor/spell resistance by it's listed value when incoming damage is a crit(as opposed to lowering the chance of incoming damage being a crit in the firstplace)

Ex: If attacker has 50% crit chance, target has 100 armor with 50 impenetrable, then the attack still has 50% chance to crit, but will be (if it is a crit) reduced by 150 armor instead by 100 armor like a normal attack would.

That's wrong. It was tested by people I knew on the closed beta (Psijic testing) a long time back to be 10% less chance to be crit by incoming attacks as a flat rate directly subtracted from the enemy's critical hit chance. It's definitely far too powerful in negating enemy critical chances in PVP and severely hinders anyone who doesn't go full-out in crit. It particularly affects builds designed around burst, or sorcs trying to use a critical surge build.

Samadhi

Maverick827 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sadae wrote: »

Maybe people should stop obsessing over crits. Next thing you know they'll be crying to nerf Armor because it hinders their damage as well.

Did you even read the thread? Sorc need crits for their only significant in combat self heal. I didn't design Sorc to be dependent on crits, the devs did.

I support changing Sorceror's Critical Surge self-heal mechanic to a 50% chance on all hits.

That would be a PvE nerf, as you can get above 50% crit fairly easily.

Why not just have Impenetrable reduce the potency of crits? Why not learn from other MMOs that had to do the same thing with their PvP stats?

That would result in needing to completely re-balance the system around the change.

Shadow Mundus would have to be buffed to compensate.
Nightblade's Hemorrhage passive would have to be buffed to compensate.
Nightblade's Shadowy Disguise active buff would have to be altered to compensate.
Sneak attacks would have to be modified to deal with the change.
New stat bonuses would have to be put in in order to counter the change.

Buffing Impenetrable and having to re-balance the system around it because one skill is having problems in PvP does not make sense to me.
Makes far more sense to alter the skill that is having issues.

Buff the other armour traits as well, to make building for Impenetrable include actual sacrifice by not taking alternatives.

Erock25

Samadhi wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sadae wrote: »

Maybe people should stop obsessing over crits. Next thing you know they'll be crying to nerf Armor because it hinders their damage as well.

Did you even read the thread? Sorc need crits for their only significant in combat self heal. I didn't design Sorc to be dependent on crits, the devs did.

I support changing Sorceror's Critical Surge self-heal mechanic to a 50% chance on all hits.

That would be a PvE nerf, as you can get above 50% crit fairly easily.

Why not just have Impenetrable reduce the potency of crits? Why not learn from other MMOs that had to do the same thing with their PvP stats?

That would result in needing to completely re-balance the system around the change.

Shadow Mundus would have to be buffed to compensate.
Nightblade's Hemorrhage passive would have to be buffed to compensate.
Nightblade's Shadowy Disguise active buff would have to be altered to compensate.
Sneak attacks would have to be modified to deal with the change.
New stat bonuses would have to be put in in order to counter the change.

Buffing Impenetrable and having to re-balance the system around it because one skill is having problems in PvP does not make sense to me.
Makes far more sense to alter the skill that is having issues.

Buff the other armour traits as well, to make building for Impenetrable include actual sacrifice by not taking alternatives.

Shadow Mundus would not need to be touched. It is one option of thirteen.

Hemorrhage would be fine as is. NB would still be critting harder than any other class. A crit is automatically 50% additional damage. Impenetrable increasing critical dmg protection would top out at 50% with all armor traited for it and legendary. Therefore NB would always have an additional 10%

Shadowy Disguise could ignore crit dmg protection from Impenetrable <-- very simple way to buff the ability by making it one of, if not the only way to ignore crit dmg protection.

How do you know sneak attacks would need to be modified? I think a sneak attack is its own thing and not a crit in the current game architecture. I think it exists outside of crit.

I think they are very easy changes to make considering the 'one skill' that is having problems is a whole classes only access to significant in combat self healing. It is much greater than just one skill when you consider the alternatives and how important self healing is in PVP, especially solo PVP.

Trayyacakes

I think the quickest and easiest solution would be to make it where crit could be pushed back by high enough impenetrable, but not completely negated.

With all impenetrable and armor and a shield you have 800 crit resistance which is 80% yes? Therefore if you have a crit build with 40%+ crit against someone with that set up you only have a 20% chance to crit. If they have no shield but all their armor is impenetrable you have a 30% chance. I think this would be the better solution. All the other traits still need to be buffed somehow so that there is atleast a debate on which traits to take in pvp.

Samadhi

Erock25 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sadae wrote: »

Maybe people should stop obsessing over crits. Next thing you know they'll be crying to nerf Armor because it hinders their damage as well.

Did you even read the thread? Sorc need crits for their only significant in combat self heal. I didn't design Sorc to be dependent on crits, the devs did.

I support changing Sorceror's Critical Surge self-heal mechanic to a 50% chance on all hits.

That would be a PvE nerf, as you can get above 50% crit fairly easily.

Why not just have Impenetrable reduce the potency of crits? Why not learn from other MMOs that had to do the same thing with their PvP stats?

That would result in needing to completely re-balance the system around the change.

Shadow Mundus would have to be buffed to compensate.
Nightblade's Hemorrhage passive would have to be buffed to compensate.
Nightblade's Shadowy Disguise active buff would have to be altered to compensate.
Sneak attacks would have to be modified to deal with the change.
New stat bonuses would have to be put in in order to counter the change.

Buffing Impenetrable and having to re-balance the system around it because one skill is having problems in PvP does not make sense to me.
Makes far more sense to alter the skill that is having issues.

Buff the other armour traits as well, to make building for Impenetrable include actual sacrifice by not taking alternatives.

Shadow Mundus would not need to be touched. It is one option of thirteen.

Hemorrhage would be fine as is. NB would still be critting harder than any other class. A crit is automatically 50% additional damage. Impenetrable increasing critical dmg protection would top out at 50% with all armor traited for it and legendary. Therefore NB would always have an additional 10%

Shadowy Disguise could ignore crit dmg protection from Impenetrable <-- very simple way to buff the ability by making it one of, if not the only way to ignore crit dmg protection.

How do you know sneak attacks would need to be modified? I think a sneak attack is its own thing and not a crit in the current game architecture. I think it exists outside of crit.

I think they are very easy changes to make considering the 'one skill' that is having problems is a whole classes only access to significant in combat self healing. It is much greater than just one skill when you consider the alternatives and how important self healing is in PVP, especially solo PVP.

So you feel it somehow makes more sense to change all of these things to accommodate Sorceror's heal mechanic, rather than simply change Sorceror's heal mechanic to something that operates within the current system constraints?
To me it makes far more sense to simply change Sorceror's heal mechanic.

Shadow Mundus would go from currently mediocre to completely useless with such a change.

Hemorrhage provides 10% of the 50% bonus bringing it up to 55%.
So your proposal would make crit-build Nightblades crit people for 105% of their regular damage.
That's a massive nerf to damage output, considering right now I can achieve over 180% crit chance at 155% regular damage on full buffs.

If Impenetrable was changed, that would be an acceptable change to Shadowy Disguise in order to deal with the issue.
Rather than change a trait, game mechanics, and a Nightblade skill to accommodate a Sorceror skill it would still make more sense to simply change Sorceror's skill though.

Sneak attacks currently automatically crit, and provide 3x the regular crit value as damage. Unless they ignored Impenetrable, they would receive a massive reduction to damage.

Changing Sorceror's Critical Surge would be far more easy and logical in response to the issue you present.

Erock25

Samadhi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sadae wrote: »

Maybe people should stop obsessing over crits. Next thing you know they'll be crying to nerf Armor because it hinders their damage as well.

Did you even read the thread? Sorc need crits for their only significant in combat self heal. I didn't design Sorc to be dependent on crits, the devs did.

I support changing Sorceror's Critical Surge self-heal mechanic to a 50% chance on all hits.

That would be a PvE nerf, as you can get above 50% crit fairly easily.

Why not just have Impenetrable reduce the potency of crits? Why not learn from other MMOs that had to do the same thing with their PvP stats?

That would result in needing to completely re-balance the system around the change.

Shadow Mundus would have to be buffed to compensate.
Nightblade's Hemorrhage passive would have to be buffed to compensate.
Nightblade's Shadowy Disguise active buff would have to be altered to compensate.
Sneak attacks would have to be modified to deal with the change.
New stat bonuses would have to be put in in order to counter the change.

Buffing Impenetrable and having to re-balance the system around it because one skill is having problems in PvP does not make sense to me.
Makes far more sense to alter the skill that is having issues.

Buff the other armour traits as well, to make building for Impenetrable include actual sacrifice by not taking alternatives.

Shadow Mundus would not need to be touched. It is one option of thirteen.

Hemorrhage would be fine as is. NB would still be critting harder than any other class. A crit is automatically 50% additional damage. Impenetrable increasing critical dmg protection would top out at 50% with all armor traited for it and legendary. Therefore NB would always have an additional 10%

Shadowy Disguise could ignore crit dmg protection from Impenetrable <-- very simple way to buff the ability by making it one of, if not the only way to ignore crit dmg protection.

How do you know sneak attacks would need to be modified? I think a sneak attack is its own thing and not a crit in the current game architecture. I think it exists outside of crit.

I think they are very easy changes to make considering the 'one skill' that is having problems is a whole classes only access to significant in combat self healing. It is much greater than just one skill when you consider the alternatives and how important self healing is in PVP, especially solo PVP.

So you feel it somehow makes more sense to change all of these things to accommodate Sorceror's heal mechanic, rather than simply change Sorceror's heal mechanic to something that operates within the current system constraints?
To me it makes far more sense to simply change Sorceror's heal mechanic.

Shadow Mundus would go from currently mediocre to completely useless with such a change.

Hemorrhage provides 10% of the 50% bonus bringing it up to 55%.
So your proposal would make crit-build Nightblades crit people for 105% of their regular damage.
That's a massive nerf to damage output, considering right now I can achieve over 180% crit chance at 155% regular damage on full buffs.

If Impenetrable was changed, that would be an acceptable change to Shadowy Disguise in order to deal with the issue.
Rather than change a trait, game mechanics, and a Nightblade skill to accommodate a Sorceror skill it would still make more sense to simply change Sorceror's skill though.

Sneak attacks currently automatically crit, and provide 3x the regular crit value as damage. Unless they ignored Impenetrable, they would receive a massive reduction to damage.

Changing Sorceror's Critical Surge would be far more easy and logical in response to the issue you present.

I'm not really sure where you are getting that we would need to change 'all these things.' There really are only two things that need to be changed and they are the impenetrable trait itself to reducing crit bonus dmg and Shadowy Disguise to ignoring crit bonus dmg reduction.

I don't think making 1 of 13 mundus stones less useful for PVP is a big deal.

Odd that Hemorrhage is multiplicative, while most other things of that nature in this game are additive, but I'll take your word for it. So currently, Hemorrhage provides +5% crit dmg bonus and even against a fully impenetrable traited person (with the change I'm suggesting to impenetrable), Hemorrhage would still provide +5% crit dmg bonus. Soooo what is the problem? Your 180% crit chance includes Shadowy Disguise, so that is already considered by making it immune to critical dmg reduction. Current version of Shadow Disguise versus current version of Impenetrable basically lets you ignore that someone has Impenetrable, and what I am suggesting with Shadowy Disguise does the same thing.

Again I'm going to assume sneak attacks are outside of the rules of criticals considering even against a currently 80% immune to critical hits character, your sneak attack will always crit. Therefore they wouldn't be affected by a change to impenetrable to be mitigating critical dmg values.

So you're arguing that changing Sorc Critical Surge is easier than changing Impenetrable and tweaking Shadowy Disguise which I can't argue with because my suggestion includes the rework of a whole armor trait, but you really are exaggerating that we might as well not change Impenetrable because it would be some crazy amount of work compared to changing Crit Surge. At least we are in agreement that something should be changed to let Sorc self heal in PVP.

eventHandler

I don't care about PvP. I just hope they don't break impen and make it useless for PvE while "balancing" it to cater to these sorcs in PvP. I don't want every other boss attack on me being a crit, and I trade off a lot of other useful things to get that crit resistance.

Kego

Maverick827 wrote: »

Why not just have Impenetrable reduce the potency of crits? Why not learn from other MMOs that had to do the same thing with their PvP stats?

Thats fine with me, if you are fine with a 40% Softcrit Cap?

and for our crying Sorc: Be happy taht you even have several mechanics for your defense. Critical Surge does not perform well in PvP? Than chose another one. Better than any Nightblade out there, where it's only defense mechanic with cloak can easly taken down with stupid Mage Light and Stealth Detect Potions.

YakoTaki

eventHandler wrote: »

I don't care about PvP. I just hope they don't break impen and make it useless for PvE while "balancing" it to cater to these sorcs in PvP. I don't want every other boss attack on me being a crit, and I trade off a lot of other useful things to get that crit resistance.

+1

YakoTaki

Erock25 <<Troll n1

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

eventHandler wrote: »

I don't care about PvP. I just hope they don't break impen and make it useless for PvE while "balancing" it to cater to these sorcs in PvP. I don't want every other boss attack on me being a crit, and I trade off a lot of other useful things to get that crit resistance.

Amen.

Even for PvP any nerf to Impenetrable going to bring disaster. The powecreep is already quite a lot, and all battles do lasts bare seconds already.

I would agree that they should remove all critical chance and the impenetrable trait.
But not nerf the Impenetrable so all the NB and SC monkeys can still carry on with 1 key press to victory.

Joy_Division

How is this even an argument?

It is just BAD design to have mostly crap traits, a few moderately useful traits, and 1 ridiculously effective trait in a specific common setting.

For a game that has been in development for years, a game that touts how "it's all about choice," I am absolutely flabbergasted.

Why does the "charged" weapon trait or the "sturdy" armor enchant even exist?

Jaxom

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

eventHandler wrote: »

I don't care about PvP. I just hope they don't break impen and make it useless for PvE while "balancing" it to cater to these sorcs in PvP. I don't want every other boss attack on me being a crit, and I trade off a lot of other useful things to get that crit resistance.

But not nerf the Impenetrable so all the NB and SC monkeys can still carry on with 1 key press to victory.

Right, because NB and Sorcs are the only class to use a single spammable skill in PvP.......Javelin and Lava Whip anyone?

The_Death_Princess

Kinda funny this going on like this. I still havn't seen any proof from tests that impenetrable works this way. Yes I looked at that #45 post (actually its 46) but that's actually just a bunch of pictures with no real documentation. When I test something sample size is a min of 100, more likely 1000.

BUT if, just if it is working that way, which I doubt from the feel of PvP between my criting NB versus my Templar, then I would say the devs made it NOT working as intended.

The way numbers are, I bet it is supposed to be the other form - which is improved armor rating. Which by the way would mean impen is worthless mostly due to caps. Notice how you cant see the 'kind helpers' stats to show he is at cap, but the damages never really change.......

Not to beat the dead horse... but until I see REAL data, not some supposed screenshots I am not convinced.