Changing armor set bonus but no change to Impenetrable trait yet?

Erock25

Impenetrable trait is WAY out of balance for PVP. It is a ridiculous design to let a trait on a single piece of armor (10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece) completely negate my Khajit's racial passive that I spent 3 skill points on (6% phys crit). The opportunity cost for gearing out with Impenetrable on minor pieces is so small too. Infused and Divines on minor pieces has an extremely small effect.

If you're going to keep Impenetrable the way it is, you need to change how Sorc self heal, and allow Khajit to change race or give them different passives. It is a complete balancing joke that 3 skill points and a racial passive are useless because of one trait on one piece of minor armor.

Erock25

Come on ... balance impenetrable! http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2adp4a/so_lets_discuss_impenetrable/

heyguyslol

Apparently there are not enough ppl to agree with your claim so I would imagine that is why they are not changing it. If it were as OP as you feel then they would. Just look at how they nerfed bats and bolt escape which I agree did need to be nerfed. I guess we can't all have it the way we want so I'd suggest using those 3 skill pts some where else. FYI there are still several skills/passives in the game that dont work as they are suppose to and theres no telling when zos will get around to fixing them. I personally feel that Overload and Weakness to Elements need to be fixed but I'm just a player not a dev

Erock25

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Apparently there are not enough ppl to agree with your claim so I would imagine that is why they are not changing it. If it were as OP as you feel then they would. Just look at how they nerfed bats and bolt escape which I agree did need to be nerfed. I guess we can't all have it the way we want so I'd suggest using those 3 skill pts some where else. FYI there are still several skills/passives in the game that dont work as they are suppose to and theres no telling when zos will get around to fixing them. I personally feel that Overload and Weakness to Elements need to be fixed but I'm just a player not a dev

If there is a trait like impenetrable with such a low opportunity cost, they need to change Khajit racials or let us switch races.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Apparently there are not enough ppl to agree with your claim so I would imagine that is why they are not changing it. If it were as OP as you feel then they would. Just look at how they nerfed bats and bolt escape which I agree did need to be nerfed. I guess we can't all have it the way we want so I'd suggest using those 3 skill pts some where else. FYI there are still several skills/passives in the game that dont work as they are suppose to and theres no telling when zos will get around to fixing them. I personally feel that Overload and Weakness to Elements need to be fixed but I'm just a player not a dev

If there is a trait like impenetrable with such a low opportunity cost, they need to change Khajit racials or let us switch races.

You have got to be kidding right? You are playing a Khajit for the 6% crit bonus only? Seems like a poor reason to choose a race based on one racial trait.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

heyguyslol

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Apparently there are not enough ppl to agree with your claim so I would imagine that is why they are not changing it. If it were as OP as you feel then they would. Just look at how they nerfed bats and bolt escape which I agree did need to be nerfed. I guess we can't all have it the way we want so I'd suggest using those 3 skill pts some where else. FYI there are still several skills/passives in the game that dont work as they are suppose to and theres no telling when zos will get around to fixing them. I personally feel that Overload and Weakness to Elements need to be fixed but I'm just a player not a dev

If there is a trait like impenetrable with such a low opportunity cost, they need to change Khajit racials or let us switch races.

You have got to be kidding right? You are playing a Khajit for the 6% crit bonus only? Seems like a poor reason to choose a race based on one racial trait. Not only should they not allow you to change races, they should ban your account for being a whiny malcontent.

Dont troll the guy he has a reason to be upset. His point is clear and not unrealistic but changing the trait just doesnt seem to be a high priority based on player feedback so it's probably not going to happen anytime soon if at all.

Erock25

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

slopezgamesub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Apparently there are not enough ppl to agree with your claim so I would imagine that is why they are not changing it. If it were as OP as you feel then they would. Just look at how they nerfed bats and bolt escape which I agree did need to be nerfed. I guess we can't all have it the way we want so I'd suggest using those 3 skill pts some where else. FYI there are still several skills/passives in the game that dont work as they are suppose to and theres no telling when zos will get around to fixing them. I personally feel that Overload and Weakness to Elements need to be fixed but I'm just a player not a dev

If there is a trait like impenetrable with such a low opportunity cost, they need to change Khajit racials or let us switch races.

You have got to be kidding right? You are playing a Khajit for the 6% crit bonus only? Seems like a poor reason to choose a race based on one racial trait. Not only should they not allow you to change races, they should ban your account for being a whiny malcontent.

How is it a poor reason to choose a race based on one racial trait. There are three non-bonus xp for a skill line traits for each race. Therefore a single racial trait is a large portion of why you should choose a race. Also, the last trait of the three is usually the most powerful so having that be completely negated is even more of a big deal. Whiny malcontent? I love this game, and just call out clear imbalances when I see them.

Sharee

Erock25 wrote: »

(10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece)

Is that how impenetrable works? Do you have a source?

Because when i was researching this a month or so back, i came upon the explanation that impenetrable increases armor/spell resistance by it's listed value when incoming damage is a crit(as opposed to lowering the chance of incoming damage being a crit in the firstplace)

Ex: If attacker has 50% crit chance, target has 100 armor with 50 impenetrable, then the attack still has 50% chance to crit, but will be (if it is a crit) reduced by 150 armor instead by 100 armor like a normal attack would.

Erock25

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

(10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece)

Is that how impenetrable works? Do you have a source?

Because when i was researching this a month or so back, i came upon the explanation that impenetrable increases armor/spell resistance by it's listed value when incoming damage is a crit(as opposed to lowering the chance of incoming damage being a crit in the firstplace)

Ex: If attacker has 50% crit chance, target has 100 armor with 50 impenetrable, then the attack still has 50% chance to crit, but will be reduced by 150 armor instead by 100 armor like a normal attack would.

I notice this myself because I have 50%+ crit rating in pvp and against some people I get zero crits and therefore zero healing from crit surge.

I've seen two or three confirmation posts on how impenetrable works on tamriel foundry and here but can not locate them at the moment.

Trust me though, it is how it works.

Sharee

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

(10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece)

Is that how impenetrable works? Do you have a source?

Because when i was researching this a month or so back, i came upon the explanation that impenetrable increases armor/spell resistance by it's listed value when incoming damage is a crit(as opposed to lowering the chance of incoming damage being a crit in the firstplace)

Ex: If attacker has 50% crit chance, target has 100 armor with 50 impenetrable, then the attack still has 50% chance to crit, but will be reduced by 150 armor instead by 100 armor like a normal attack would.

I notice this myself because I have 50%+ crit rating in pvp and against some people I get zero crits and therefore zero healing from crit surge.

I've seen two or three confirmation posts on how impenetrable works on tamriel foundry and here but can not locate them at the moment.

Trust me though, it is how it works.

This thread http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/impenetrable/
on Tamrielfoundry is dedicated to the topic, and even the guys there are not sure how it works. The best anyone could offer in that thread to the question "How do you know it works that way?" was "Lots of people are saying it does". That's not good enough for me. Not on the internet where lots of people just parrot what they read elsewhere.

Think about it. If you have a full set of legendary gear with impenetrable, you would be practically immune to crits(80% reduced chance to be crit with shield, who has more than 80% crit chance normally?).

That's immensely powerful. Compare this to the other armor traits. For example Divnes trait(8%) when you have the thief mundus. 8x8=64% increased effect of 5% crit chance -> 8.2% crit chance.

So you have one armor trait that increases chance to crit by 3% when used on the whole set, and another trait that decreases chance to be crit by 80%(!) when used on the whole set.

3 vs 80. I simply do not see how this would be in any way balanced. Therefore i do not believe the impenetrable does what the OP in this thread thinks it does.


[EDIT] This is from the tamrielfoundry thread:

I pvp with 7 pieces of IMPENETRABLE I should be basically immune crit. I mean who runs around with more then 60% / 70% crit chance without potions.

Yet I think I get critted quite often. I will pay more attention to it in future.

Also, this is the source of my other interpretation of how impenetrable works. Not anymore solid evidence that anything else you'll find, but at least makes more sense: http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/23xq4m/hey_theorypeople_whats_better_a_20_dodge_chance/

Oh it's actually pretty simple. It's basically an armor number, that applies only to when you get critted. So, if you have 1600 armor base (around first tier of softcaps), but have 4 90 impenetrable pieces of gear, your armor rating (and thereby your Damage reduction) acts as 1960 when critted (it's not actually 1960 due to the soft cap, but that's the gist).

EDIT: also applies to spell resist and spell crits

Erock25

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

(10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece)

Is that how impenetrable works? Do you have a source?

Because when i was researching this a month or so back, i came upon the explanation that impenetrable increases armor/spell resistance by it's listed value when incoming damage is a crit(as opposed to lowering the chance of incoming damage being a crit in the firstplace)

Ex: If attacker has 50% crit chance, target has 100 armor with 50 impenetrable, then the attack still has 50% chance to crit, but will be reduced by 150 armor instead by 100 armor like a normal attack would.

I notice this myself because I have 50%+ crit rating in pvp and against some people I get zero crits and therefore zero healing from crit surge.

I've seen two or three confirmation posts on how impenetrable works on tamriel foundry and here but can not locate them at the moment.

Trust me though, it is how it works.

This thread http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/impenetrable/
on Tamrielfoundry is dedicated to the topic, and even the guys there are not sure how it works. The best anyone could offer in that thread to the question "How do you know it works that way?" was "Lots of people are saying it does". That's not good enough for me. Not on the internet where lots of people just parrot what they read elsewhere.

Think about it. If you have a full set of legendary gear with impenetrable, you would be practically immune to crits(80% reduced chance to be crit with shield, who has more than 80% crit chance normally?).

That's immensely powerful. Compare this to the other armor traits. For example Divnes trait(8%) when you have the thief mundus. 8x8=64% increased effect of 5% crit chance -> 8.2% crit chance.

So you have one armor trait that increases chance to crit by 3% when used on the whole set, and another trait that decreases chance to be crit by 80%(!) when used on the whole set.

3 vs 80. I simply do not see how this would be in any way balanced. Therefore i do not believe the impenetrable does what the OP in this thread thinks it does.

I'll keep searching for the posts that confirm this, but now you see why I think it is ridiculous over powered. It is in a whole other level compared to the other armor traits.

Found one example of a test .... Post number 45 http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/fighting-well-played-dragonknights-as-a-sorcerer/page/3/

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

Yep, this trait make useless many builds but I don't think the trait should disappear or change completely, because there are a lot of builds with insane critical chance. The right move would be to reduce to half the bonus or change the mechanic how impenetrable trait works.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

So 2 or 3 purple impenetrable trait gear and good to go. On it!

Sharee

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

(10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece)

Is that how impenetrable works? Do you have a source?

Because when i was researching this a month or so back, i came upon the explanation that impenetrable increases armor/spell resistance by it's listed value when incoming damage is a crit(as opposed to lowering the chance of incoming damage being a crit in the firstplace)

Ex: If attacker has 50% crit chance, target has 100 armor with 50 impenetrable, then the attack still has 50% chance to crit, but will be reduced by 150 armor instead by 100 armor like a normal attack would.

I notice this myself because I have 50%+ crit rating in pvp and against some people I get zero crits and therefore zero healing from crit surge.

I've seen two or three confirmation posts on how impenetrable works on tamriel foundry and here but can not locate them at the moment.

Trust me though, it is how it works.

This thread http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/impenetrable/
on Tamrielfoundry is dedicated to the topic, and even the guys there are not sure how it works. The best anyone could offer in that thread to the question "How do you know it works that way?" was "Lots of people are saying it does". That's not good enough for me. Not on the internet where lots of people just parrot what they read elsewhere.

Think about it. If you have a full set of legendary gear with impenetrable, you would be practically immune to crits(80% reduced chance to be crit with shield, who has more than 80% crit chance normally?).

That's immensely powerful. Compare this to the other armor traits. For example Divnes trait(8%) when you have the thief mundus. 8x8=64% increased effect of 5% crit chance -> 8.2% crit chance.

So you have one armor trait that increases chance to crit by 3% when used on the whole set, and another trait that decreases chance to be crit by 80%(!) when used on the whole set.

3 vs 80. I simply do not see how this would be in any way balanced. Therefore i do not believe the impenetrable does what the OP in this thread thinks it does.

I'll keep searching for the posts that confirm this, but now you see why I think it is ridiculous over powered. It is in a whole other level compared to the other armor traits.

Found one example of a test .... Post number 45 http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/fighting-well-played-dragonknights-as-a-sorcerer/page/3/

Thanks for the link. That was pretty conclusive.

I expect this to get nerfed sooner or later. As it is, there is no reason to go with anything but impenetrable on all armor pieces in PvP, and all critical strike chance bonuses are completely meaningless.

Erock25

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

(10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece)

Is that how impenetrable works? Do you have a source?

Because when i was researching this a month or so back, i came upon the explanation that impenetrable increases armor/spell resistance by it's listed value when incoming damage is a crit(as opposed to lowering the chance of incoming damage being a crit in the firstplace)

Ex: If attacker has 50% crit chance, target has 100 armor with 50 impenetrable, then the attack still has 50% chance to crit, but will be reduced by 150 armor instead by 100 armor like a normal attack would.

I notice this myself because I have 50%+ crit rating in pvp and against some people I get zero crits and therefore zero healing from crit surge.

I've seen two or three confirmation posts on how impenetrable works on tamriel foundry and here but can not locate them at the moment.

Trust me though, it is how it works.

This thread http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/impenetrable/
on Tamrielfoundry is dedicated to the topic, and even the guys there are not sure how it works. The best anyone could offer in that thread to the question "How do you know it works that way?" was "Lots of people are saying it does". That's not good enough for me. Not on the internet where lots of people just parrot what they read elsewhere.

Think about it. If you have a full set of legendary gear with impenetrable, you would be practically immune to crits(80% reduced chance to be crit with shield, who has more than 80% crit chance normally?).

That's immensely powerful. Compare this to the other armor traits. For example Divnes trait(8%) when you have the thief mundus. 8x8=64% increased effect of 5% crit chance -> 8.2% crit chance.

So you have one armor trait that increases chance to crit by 3% when used on the whole set, and another trait that decreases chance to be crit by 80%(!) when used on the whole set.

3 vs 80. I simply do not see how this would be in any way balanced. Therefore i do not believe the impenetrable does what the OP in this thread thinks it does.

I'll keep searching for the posts that confirm this, but now you see why I think it is ridiculous over powered. It is in a whole other level compared to the other armor traits.

Found one example of a test .... Post number 45 http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/fighting-well-played-dragonknights-as-a-sorcerer/page/3/

Thanks for the link. That was pretty conclusive.

I expect this to get nerfed sooner or later. As it is, there is no reason to go with anything but impenetrable on all armor pieces in PvP, and all critical strike chance bonuses are completely meaningless.

Glad someone agrees with me!

An easy fix would be to change it to crit dmg resist, so that with a full set of legendary gear with impenetrable, a crit would hit you for 10% bonus damage instead of the base 50% bonus damage. Even if changed to this it would still be very powerful (maybe still too powerful compared to other options) but at least it wouldn't fully negate anyone going for a crit build.

Sharee

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

(10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece)

Is that how impenetrable works? Do you have a source?

Because when i was researching this a month or so back, i came upon the explanation that impenetrable increases armor/spell resistance by it's listed value when incoming damage is a crit(as opposed to lowering the chance of incoming damage being a crit in the firstplace)

Ex: If attacker has 50% crit chance, target has 100 armor with 50 impenetrable, then the attack still has 50% chance to crit, but will be reduced by 150 armor instead by 100 armor like a normal attack would.

I notice this myself because I have 50%+ crit rating in pvp and against some people I get zero crits and therefore zero healing from crit surge.

I've seen two or three confirmation posts on how impenetrable works on tamriel foundry and here but can not locate them at the moment.

Trust me though, it is how it works.

This thread http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/impenetrable/
on Tamrielfoundry is dedicated to the topic, and even the guys there are not sure how it works. The best anyone could offer in that thread to the question "How do you know it works that way?" was "Lots of people are saying it does". That's not good enough for me. Not on the internet where lots of people just parrot what they read elsewhere.

Think about it. If you have a full set of legendary gear with impenetrable, you would be practically immune to crits(80% reduced chance to be crit with shield, who has more than 80% crit chance normally?).

That's immensely powerful. Compare this to the other armor traits. For example Divnes trait(8%) when you have the thief mundus. 8x8=64% increased effect of 5% crit chance -> 8.2% crit chance.

So you have one armor trait that increases chance to crit by 3% when used on the whole set, and another trait that decreases chance to be crit by 80%(!) when used on the whole set.

3 vs 80. I simply do not see how this would be in any way balanced. Therefore i do not believe the impenetrable does what the OP in this thread thinks it does.

I'll keep searching for the posts that confirm this, but now you see why I think it is ridiculous over powered. It is in a whole other level compared to the other armor traits.

Found one example of a test .... Post number 45 http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/fighting-well-played-dragonknights-as-a-sorcerer/page/3/

Thanks for the link. That was pretty conclusive.

I expect this to get nerfed sooner or later. As it is, there is no reason to go with anything but impenetrable on all armor pieces in PvP, and all critical strike chance bonuses are completely meaningless.

Glad someone agrees with me!

An easy fix would be to change it to crit dmg resist, so that with a full set of legendary gear with impenetrable, a crit would hit you for 10% bonus damage instead of the base 50% bonus damage. Even if changed to this it would still be very powerful (maybe still too powerful compared to other options) but at least it wouldn't fully negate anyone going for a crit build.

That gives me a great idea how to boost nightblades: Give Master assassin a 50/100 chance to ignore impenetrable trait

Xsorus

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

(10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece)

Is that how impenetrable works? Do you have a source?

Because when i was researching this a month or so back, i came upon the explanation that impenetrable increases armor/spell resistance by it's listed value when incoming damage is a crit(as opposed to lowering the chance of incoming damage being a crit in the firstplace)

Ex: If attacker has 50% crit chance, target has 100 armor with 50 impenetrable, then the attack still has 50% chance to crit, but will be reduced by 150 armor instead by 100 armor like a normal attack would.

I notice this myself because I have 50%+ crit rating in pvp and against some people I get zero crits and therefore zero healing from crit surge.

I've seen two or three confirmation posts on how impenetrable works on tamriel foundry and here but can not locate them at the moment.

Trust me though, it is how it works.

This thread http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/impenetrable/
on Tamrielfoundry is dedicated to the topic, and even the guys there are not sure how it works. The best anyone could offer in that thread to the question "How do you know it works that way?" was "Lots of people are saying it does". That's not good enough for me. Not on the internet where lots of people just parrot what they read elsewhere.

Think about it. If you have a full set of legendary gear with impenetrable, you would be practically immune to crits(80% reduced chance to be crit with shield, who has more than 80% crit chance normally?).

That's immensely powerful. Compare this to the other armor traits. For example Divnes trait(8%) when you have the thief mundus. 8x8=64% increased effect of 5% crit chance -> 8.2% crit chance.

So you have one armor trait that increases chance to crit by 3% when used on the whole set, and another trait that decreases chance to be crit by 80%(!) when used on the whole set.

3 vs 80. I simply do not see how this would be in any way balanced. Therefore i do not believe the impenetrable does what the OP in this thread thinks it does.

I'll keep searching for the posts that confirm this, but now you see why I think it is ridiculous over powered. It is in a whole other level compared to the other armor traits.

Found one example of a test .... Post number 45 http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/fighting-well-played-dragonknights-as-a-sorcerer/page/3/

Thanks for the link. That was pretty conclusive.

I expect this to get nerfed sooner or later. As it is, there is no reason to go with anything but impenetrable on all armor pieces in PvP, and all critical strike chance bonuses are completely meaningless.

Glad someone agrees with me!

An easy fix would be to change it to crit dmg resist, so that with a full set of legendary gear with impenetrable, a crit would hit you for 10% bonus damage instead of the base 50% bonus damage. Even if changed to this it would still be very powerful (maybe still too powerful compared to other options) but at least it wouldn't fully negate anyone going for a crit build.

We already talked about this in another thread

It would flat out nerf Bow Builds and Medium Armor Builds (anyone who relies on landing that opening crit basically from stealth) to make that change.

All because you want to be able to heal on your Sorc a bit better

Erock25

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

(10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece)

Is that how impenetrable works? Do you have a source?

Because when i was researching this a month or so back, i came upon the explanation that impenetrable increases armor/spell resistance by it's listed value when incoming damage is a crit(as opposed to lowering the chance of incoming damage being a crit in the firstplace)

Ex: If attacker has 50% crit chance, target has 100 armor with 50 impenetrable, then the attack still has 50% chance to crit, but will be reduced by 150 armor instead by 100 armor like a normal attack would.

I notice this myself because I have 50%+ crit rating in pvp and against some people I get zero crits and therefore zero healing from crit surge.

I've seen two or three confirmation posts on how impenetrable works on tamriel foundry and here but can not locate them at the moment.

Trust me though, it is how it works.

This thread http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/impenetrable/
on Tamrielfoundry is dedicated to the topic, and even the guys there are not sure how it works. The best anyone could offer in that thread to the question "How do you know it works that way?" was "Lots of people are saying it does". That's not good enough for me. Not on the internet where lots of people just parrot what they read elsewhere.

Think about it. If you have a full set of legendary gear with impenetrable, you would be practically immune to crits(80% reduced chance to be crit with shield, who has more than 80% crit chance normally?).

That's immensely powerful. Compare this to the other armor traits. For example Divnes trait(8%) when you have the thief mundus. 8x8=64% increased effect of 5% crit chance -> 8.2% crit chance.

So you have one armor trait that increases chance to crit by 3% when used on the whole set, and another trait that decreases chance to be crit by 80%(!) when used on the whole set.

3 vs 80. I simply do not see how this would be in any way balanced. Therefore i do not believe the impenetrable does what the OP in this thread thinks it does.

I'll keep searching for the posts that confirm this, but now you see why I think it is ridiculous over powered. It is in a whole other level compared to the other armor traits.

Found one example of a test .... Post number 45 http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/fighting-well-played-dragonknights-as-a-sorcerer/page/3/

Thanks for the link. That was pretty conclusive.

I expect this to get nerfed sooner or later. As it is, there is no reason to go with anything but impenetrable on all armor pieces in PvP, and all critical strike chance bonuses are completely meaningless.

Glad someone agrees with me!

An easy fix would be to change it to crit dmg resist, so that with a full set of legendary gear with impenetrable, a crit would hit you for 10% bonus damage instead of the base 50% bonus damage. Even if changed to this it would still be very powerful (maybe still too powerful compared to other options) but at least it wouldn't fully negate anyone going for a crit build.

We already talked about this in another thread

It would flat out nerf Bow Builds and Medium Armor Builds (anyone who relies on landing that opening crit basically from stealth) to make that change.

All because you want to be able to heal on your Sorc a bit better

A bit better? How about heal at all?

I think (as someone who would prefer to use their Sorc as a bow/2h) that if someone wants to put together 8 legendary pieces of gear together that it is perfectly balanced for hits from stealth to only do 110% dmg instead of 150%. Jumping someone from stealth shouldn't be the defining moment of a fight between two people 1 vs 1, especially with the increased HP softcaps.

What isn't perfectly balanced is 5 legendary pieces of gear completely shutting out an entire class (presumably 25% of the population) from having access to their self heals.

seanolan

So, because YOUR only self heal is based solely on getting crits, everyone else should have their crit resistance nerfed...never mind that it removes other bonuses to have said crit resistance, YOU feel discriminated against.

Give me strength. Seriously.

Erock25

seanolan wrote: »

So, because YOUR only self heal is based solely on getting crits, everyone else should have their crit resistance nerfed...never mind that it removes other bonuses to have said crit resistance, YOU feel discriminated against.

Give me strength. Seriously.

Yes because ZOS designed a class to have its heals based on crits, I feel traits on armor should not be able to completely negate all crits from happening. I guess you haven't looked into things, but those 'other bonuses' people could have instead of impenetrable (especially on minor pieces) are so miniscule that they amount to nothing. 40% crit negated versus 40 magicka is not even in the same stratosphere. Also, impenetrable wouldn't necessarily be nerfed that much by switching it to critical dmg resistance instead of crit resistance. It would still perform nearly just as well.

Give me strength? A little dramatic for someone's opinion on an armor trait in a video game, don't you think?

I also think it is a ridiculous concept for a racial trait that you have to spend 3 skill points on to be so easily negated.

seanolan

Hardly negated. Simply not as effective in PVP. And crit resist is pointless outisde of PVP, as mobs never seem to get crits. So, your crits are negated if they wear special PVP-only armor. Sounds fair to me. And I am being dramatic to match the drama of you lot who make this seem like the end of all that is good in this game, if someone resists your crits. God forbid.

DeLindsay

Erock25 wrote: »

Impenetrable trait is WAY out of balance for PVP. It is a ridiculous design to let a trait on a single piece of armor (10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece) completely negate my Khajit's racial passive that I spent 3 skill points on (6% phys crit). The opportunity cost for gearing out with Impenetrable on minor pieces is so small too. Infused and Divines on minor pieces has an extremely small effect.

If you're going to keep Impenetrable the way it is, you need to change how Sorc self heal, and allow Khajit to change race or give them different passives. It is a complete balancing joke that 3 skill points and a racial passive are useless because of one trait on one piece of minor armor.

Translation: "I'm mad because I want to run my uber PvE crit build in PvP but people got smart and tossed on a counter so now I'm bad in PvP, NERF IMPEN NAOW!!" Seems legit.

Erock25

seanolan wrote: »

Hardly negated. Simply not as effective in PVP. And crit resist is pointless outisde of PVP, as mobs never seem to get crits. So, your crits are negated if they wear special PVP-only armor. Sounds fair to me. And I am being dramatic to match the drama of you lot who make this seem like the end of all that is good in this game, if someone resists your crits. God forbid.

What do you mean hardly negated? It is fully negated. Yes this is for PVP only but anyone who knows anything about PVP has a lot of impenetrable on. Where am I bringing drama into this thread? Please re-read and point out where 'my lot' is inferring that this game is ruined because of it.

DeLindsay wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Impenetrable trait is WAY out of balance for PVP. It is a ridiculous design to let a trait on a single piece of armor (10% crit chance reduction on legendary piece) completely negate my Khajit's racial passive that I spent 3 skill points on (6% phys crit). The opportunity cost for gearing out with Impenetrable on minor pieces is so small too. Infused and Divines on minor pieces has an extremely small effect.

If you're going to keep Impenetrable the way it is, you need to change how Sorc self heal, and allow Khajit to change race or give them different passives. It is a complete balancing joke that 3 skill points and a racial passive are useless because of one trait on one piece of minor armor.

Translation: "I'm mad because I want to run my uber PvE crit build in PvP but people got smart and tossed on a counter so now I'm bad in PvP, NERF IMPEN NAOW!!" Seems legit.

It isn't a counter. It is the standard that everyone will eventually follow because there are no other worthwhile traits for PVP. There are so many things wrong with the Impenetrable trait and it seems because you hate Sorc or maybe aren't very good at PVP that you resort to being sarcastic instead of objectively looking at the issue.

-Impenetrable trait is VASTLY superior to all other traits for PVP. Something should not be so out of balance compared to its alternatives.

-It easily negates one classes only viable source of healing

-It completely negates one race's passive with 3 skill points spent on it by putting a single armor trait on a single piece of minor gear

DeLindsay

Erock25 wrote: »

It isn't a counter. It is the standard that everyone will eventually follow because there are no other worthwhile traits for PVP. There are so many things wrong with the Impenetrable trait and it seems because you hate Sorc or maybe aren't very good at PVP that you resort to being sarcastic instead of objectively looking at the issue.

-Impenetrable trait is VASTLY superior to all other traits for PVP. Something should not be so out of balance compared to its alternatives.

-It easily negates one classes only viable source of healing

-It completely negates one race's passive with 3 skill points spent on it by putting a single armor trait on a single piece of minor gear

-It is a counter, whether you want to admit it or not.

-6% crit for Khajit racial, seriously if you're that upset about 6% then nobody here can help you. Besides the last time I looked it's only WEAPON Crit, and everyone complains that everyone uses Stick & Skirt in PvP which makes your point moot.

-Sturdy trait is VASTLY inferior to all other traits for PvP. Something should not be so out of balance to it's alternatives... See I can do that too.

-So basically you're saying that Sorcs have it bad in PvP because of Impenetrable and ZoS should remove BE from Sorcs as well as Impenetrable from everyone else, I mean fair is fair amiright?

seanolan

You DO understand that PvP is less than 1/2 the game right? Not even 1/10 the game, honestly. The majority of folks dip a toe into Cyrodill and never really go back. The drama you bring is that this is something so critical that it deserves priority over other matters. And it is simply your opinion that Impenetrable is the only decent PvP trait. Many of my guildies don't bother with it. We really aren't thinking "how do we prevent a sorc from healing?" we are thinking "how do we beatdown the sorc before he bolt-escapes and drinks an invisibility potion and gets away after his huge damage explosion". I dunno if you have a really viable healing build, but honestly, if you can outheal the damage I deal with your crit build, good for you, but you'll be the first sorc to do so, and I don't use Impenetrable. Not gonna tell you what my build is, since you are quick to complain and demand nerfage, but it ain't a set of armor solely designed to defeat just one build. I just get tired of people being unable to deal with one thing with their one build and complaining it must be nerfed. You SHOULDN'T be able to deal with all builds/designs with your one build. It's a huge game of Rock/Paper/Scissors. Some builds beat other builds, which beat builds that can beat the first one. And so it goes. Don't whine because you found the one setup that you can't deal with. That's what groups are for in PvP.

timidobserver

I like the impenetrable trait as it is. Sorc's needing crits to be even more powerful than they already are definitely isn't a good enough reason to nerf impentrable

Maverick827

The fact of the matter is that Zenimax created certain builds where simply the act of landing a critical hit is integral to the build's success. Nothing should exist that can diminish this chance. That would be like a stat that reads: "Reduces damage taken from Assassination abilities." I'm sure Assassination Nightblades would be pretty upset, and understandably so, if such a stat existed.

Pretty much every other MMO has figured this out and has changed "reduces the chance of critical hit" stats to "reduce the damage done by critical hits."

I suppose you could go to each and every skill that does something with a critical strike happens and re-word it, like Critical Surge:

"Increases weapon damage by X for 20 seconds. All attacks have a chance equal to your critical strike chance to heal the player for Y% of damage inflicted"

But that seems a bit counter-intuitive.

Morvul

Let's put this discussion another way:
In PvP, is there any sensible reason to use any other armor trait then impenetrable on the "small" armour pieces?

If the answer to that question is "no", and I would argue that to be the case, then impenetrable is clearly to strong when compared to the other armor traits...

DeLindsay

Morvul wrote: »

Let's put this discussion another way:
In PvP, is there any sensible reason to use any other armor trait then impenetrable on the "small" armour pieces?

If the answer to that question is "no", and I would argue that to be the case, then impenetrable is clearly to strong when compared to the other armor traits...

I'll counter that with this. In PvP, is there any sensible reason to use Sturdy on any armor pieces?

If the answer to that question is "no", and I would argue that to be the case, then Sturdy is clearly too weak when compared to the other armor traits...

Stating that one trait is used over the rest isn't a valid argument. As we can clearly state that another single trait isn't used at all, therefore it either needs to go away, be changed or have it buffed just as some claim Impenetrable needs to go away, be changed or get nerfed.

Morvul

DeLindsay wrote: »

I'll counter that with this. In PvP, is there any sensible reason to use Sturdy on any armor pieces?

If the answer to that question is "no", and I would argue that to be the case, then Sturdy is clearly too weak when compared to the other armor traits...

which is pretty much exactly my point.
out of the 8 armor traits, ~ half are useless, a few are mildly usefull in PvE and PvP and one is absolutely overpowerd in PvP.

So, hitting impenetrable with a swing of the nerfbat, while at the same time buffing the other traits - which incidentaly gives the usage of impenetrable an opportunity cost (something it currently has not) - would seem like the way to go.
In my opinion at least...

DeLindsay

Right but that doesn't mean Impenetrable is inherently OP in PvP just because it's the trait players choose over all others. It just means that it's the most useful trait compared to all others. In PvE it's actually kind of meh outside of Trails, and for Trials it's only real benefit is that any other trait on those 4 off pieces would have such a low value due to being overcharged already in the attribute (Infused > Magicka/Health as example). Divines is the only caveat to this as it still has full effect, mostly because said effect is absurdly low (+2.78% with 7pcs of Legendary Divines)

I can agree that Traits could use a balance pass but I disagree that Impenetrable NEEDS a nerf all because a few Sorcs are crying about it solely in regards to PvP. Instead maybe those Sorcs could just build for pure damage output like MOST do now in PvP. Besides there's a few threads here that are complaining that Sorcs hit TOO hard in PvP with a full damage build and are actually capable of 2 shotting high VR characters. That and all the complaints about BE. I'd rather see them balance Classes then worry about an armor trait that only effects ONE specific type of DPS build and ONLY in PvP.