Forward Camps are fixed, but now broken

Perphection

dbetterton_ESO wrote: »

To all those telling us how easy it is to take a keep...please come over to NA Wabba and show us at Alessia (assuming you're EP or DC).

Emperor and crew will teleport on top of your head with 6 DK's and with the current FPS issues you'll not even see them or the Standards.

Dalriaden

runagate wrote: »

If there's 100 people attacking a keep there's nothing whatsoever preventing them from pounding every single wall and door to dust with siege weapons.

I simply cannot fathom what you could be doing with all those people - just standing around angrily while the defenders blow kisses over the crenelations?

Pretty much. Zergs get fried in oil at the front door 90% of the time and the semi organized zerg will take down one postern and then zerg repeatedly until they run out of camps or take the camp. Its surprising how many people refuse to open up more then one access way to spread out defenders.

Talcyndl

Again, I invite the experts to come show us how easy it is. Maybe they can help us put a fourth hole in Alessia. Fourth hole a charm?

frozywozy

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

It's only a serious issue in highly pop-imbalanced campaigns, which are screwed anyhow

Wabbajack is not imbalanced anymore. We have the same population in all 3 factions at any time of the day.

steven.brandon.garciaub17_ESO wrote: »

This is an issue of you being bad or not having enough support to take the keep. Keeps are supposed to be hard to take even if there are only a moderate number of defenders. They have walls, npc support, and if the keep isn't flagged they can spawn there.

I have had alot of free time lately because I'm in vacations so I have led numerous raids on Alessia over and over again. I play at least 14 hours a day since Luvboard has emp on Wabba and I swear to you, there is nothing we can do to break the defenses.

Why ? Simply because it takes at least a 5 mins to wipe the whole emperor group (according that we kept Luvboard last to kill), and by the time we finally get to finish him off, their whole group is back on us spawning over and over again using forward camps. And meanwhile, the repair cooldown has already faded since a long while ago and people have already repaired the wall up to 75%+.

I have tried to designate special squad groups on forward camp burning mission several times, it doesn't change anything.

Why ? Because like @dbetterton_ESO mentioned, as soon as someone set up a camp, by the time you have located it, the emperor group has already spawned on it and they are all rolling back on us.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I disagree. The usefulness of forward camps hasn't changed with the fix. The only difference is now you no longer need to log out and log back in to see the camp on your map.

Taking a defended keep is intended to be a challenging, epic battle. In my view, the issue is not forward camps, but low population campaigns where you don't have enough strong players on your side to take a keep that is heavily defended.

Camps are as useful for those assaulting the keep as those defending. In my view, the changes you are requesting would make it harder to assault a keep, not easier. You would lose a lot of momentum in your assault if you had to rez at some distant keep, and you would lose the interest of some of the attacking players if you had to keep riding back from some distance away.

The developers have indicated they are working on a fix for the frame rate issue, which will get more people into Cyrodiil. When we have only 5 campaigns instead of 11, and guesting becomes more expensive, ideally the remaining campaigns will be more populated.

As soon as we have playable frame rates and 4 or 5 campaigns with decent population instead of just one, I believe the user experience for both assaulting and defending keeps will be significantly improved.

I'm not sure to understand why the "usefulness of forward camps hasn't changed with the fix". Before, we could not spawn on them because they would not appear on the map after bugging out and now we can. This is a big issue and it allows people to spawn on them repeatedly making them more useful than they used to be.

Also, I understand that taking a keep is intended to be a difficult and epic process. I invite you to participate to our pvp events and see by yourself. The coordination is there and we have done the impossible to try to take Alessia during the past 7days without success. I take that the emperor is designed to be the most powerful player who can wipe entire groups. I have absolutely nothing against it. The problem is that the defenders can spawn directly next to their inner postern and run straight inside to defend their flag in a matter of seconds. Unlike the attackers who have to run from a ressource outside.

I believe that a cooldown of 2 minutes AFTER the despawn of the forward camp could help alot to fix the problem we are experiencing right now.

Also, I would slightly increase the cooldown to repair a flagged keep &/or attribute a maximum of players who can repair at the same time.

IcyDeadPeople

frozywozy wrote: »

I'm not sure to understand why the "usefulness of forward camps hasn't changed with the fix". Before, we could not spawn on them because they would not appear on the map after bugging out and now we can. This is a big issue and it allows people to spawn on them repeatedly making them more useful than they used to be.

Prior to the patch that fixed this issue, forward camps would sometimes disappear from the map, which required logging out and logging back in so they would become visible again. Now we no longer need to do go through this annoying step.

frozywozy wrote: »

Also, I understand that taking a keep is intended to be a difficult and epic process. I invite you to participate to our pvp events and see by yourself. The coordination is there and we have done the impossible to try to take Alessia during the past 7days without success. I take that the emperor is designed to be the most powerful player who can wipe entire groups. I have absolutely nothing against it.

During the past week, many have been taking a break from Cyrodiil, and those who remain are often struggling to play effectively at 2-4 fps. On a high pop campaign, it's more challenging to defend keeps regardless of whether the active emperor is defending or not. Once the frame rate issue is fixed, and we have fewer campaigns, I'm hoping all five of them will be relatively high pop.

frozywozy wrote: »

The problem is that the defenders can spawn directly next to their inner postern and run straight inside to defend their flag in a matter of seconds. Unlike the attackers who have to run from a ressource outside.

It's true that this provides some advantage to the defenders. I think the intention here is that a larger force is required to take a defended keep.

frozywozy wrote: »

I believe that a cooldown of 2 minutes AFTER the despawn of the forward camp could help alot to fix the problem we are experiencing right now.

In my view, this would make it more difficult to assault keeps. You would want a 2-minute delay when your entire team has just wiped, waiting to respawn on the floor of the keep you are trying to cap?

Players on the attacking faction would often get discouraged by this sort of delay, back when the camps were bugged and you had to relog to make them visible, or ride all the way back after spawning at a distant keep. There are many players who want to enjoy combat without delays. On a high pop campaign if they wipe at the keep you want to cap and there is no camp up, they will switch gears and spawn at an entirely different part of the map, wherever they can quickly get to some action.

frozywozy wrote: »

Also, I would slightly increase the cooldown to repair a flagged keep &/or attribute a maximum of players who can repair at the same time.

Great point. I agree, it seems wall repairs can be made a bit too soon after siege damage stops.

runagate

Hmm, then maybe the problem is that Bit left Wabba,

Vis

The subject line is well written. It's a very "be careful what you wish for" situation.

The camp spam has made pvp death too penalty-free which hampers smart gameplay. The new system is all in favor of farmers and hurts pugs.

I would suggest a cd on camps in an area and thus promote a spreading out of the action.

Though before I forget, thank you ZOS for the camp fix and sorry we are now overusing them.

Xsorus

lol...if you think camping both sides of the posterns will stop it, you're wrong..

they're going up on top of the outter walls towers now.

IcyDeadPeople

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

they're going up on top of the outter walls towers now.

People have been placing camps on these towers since last year on the PTS. Not a particularly great spot because it's easy to see from a distance.

dcincali

I posted this somewhere else, but camps need an option when you place them, group, guild or open. Some people don't want the whole server to show up when they drop a camp.

Ghenra

The biggest problem of the fowards camps is they are destroying completly the roam and the fight lines concentrating the battles arround the keeps always.

I think the foward camps need a nerf soon, to promote the roam ganks and strategy in Cyrodiil, this map is soo big to fight always close to keeps.

Vis

dcincali wrote: »

I posted this somewhere else, but camps need an option when you place them, group, guild or open. Some people don't want the whole server to show up when they drop a camp.

Can't do that. Otherwise a spy would put a camp down for himself and his 2 man group and block all reinforcements for an entire area. Or you would have to allow for more camps to be put down and we really don't need that at the moment.

Vis

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

they're going up on top of the outter walls towers now.

People have been placing camps on these towers since last year on the PTS. Not a particularly great spot because it's easy to see from a distance.

It's actually a great spot if you have a large fight happening. Four to five guys with oils up top and a camp as bait can make a lot of AP.

Vis

jparrillab16_ESO wrote: »

The biggest problem of the fowards camps is they are destroying completly the roam and the fight lines concentrating the battles arround the keeps always.

I think the foward camps need a nerf soon, to promote the roam ganks and strategy in Cyrodiil, this map is soo big to fight always close to keeps.

Completely agree. It has killed small group and solo pvp.

I appreciate them making camps more reliable, but to allow for pvp diversity and strategy, camps need a significant cool down. 5-10 minutes should be long enough to promote people to run from other keeps and yet still have the benefits of camps.

Talcyndl

Looking at this from the other side (running with Emp group defending keeps) makes it even clearer to me that FCs need to be limited. We have spent the last 24 hours defending keeps and then suiciding to the next keep that needs help. Rinse and repeat = as long as the Emp group can stay awake, it is close to impossible for the enemy to take a keep.

Which is why I again want to salute whatever drug combination kept Luvboard's group up and functioning for 8 days.

Tombs_UDL

I dont mind the Forward Camps the way they are. However, Blood Porting should not be part of this game. If you die up North it should not be a free port to the bottom of the map or the controlled Keep of your choosing.

When you die you should be able to rez at either of your home bases or at a forward camp within one click of the death spot. Period. Death is so meaningless it is a viable form of transportation in Cyrodill.

Dbetterton (above me) says "We have spent the last 24 hours defending keeps and then suiciding to the next keep that needs help."

Suiciding (we call it bloodporting) to the next keep... What kind of *** up mechanic is that lol.

FENGRUSH

Tombs_UDL wrote: »

I dont mind the Forward Camps the way they are. However, Blood Porting should not be part of this game. If you die up North it should not be a free port to the bottom of the map or the controlled Keep of your choosing.

When you die you should be able to rez at either of your home bases or at a forward camp within one click of the death spot. Period. Death is so meaningless it is a viable form of transportation in Cyrodill.

Dbetterton (above me) says "We have spent the last 24 hours defending keeps and then suiciding to the next keep that needs help."

Suiciding (we call it bloodporting) to the next keep... What kind of *** up mechanic is that lol.

All hail lord droth

Infraction

dbetterton_ESO wrote: »

Infraction wrote: »

I fail to see how forward camps are the problem inside the keep when 9 times out of 10 nobody looks at the opposite postern where the camp is placed. There are enough people standing around that can take down a forward camp.

But even when you do send a a group to kill the camps, it doesn't help with a defended keep. All they have to do is push that group back for a few seconds while the next camp is placed. By the time that new camp is burned 10-20 people have spawned. You are fighting a losing battle. It's like digging a hole in the sand while the tide is rising.

This may not be an issue on low population servers, but it is on Wabba.

I play on Wabba, although haven't lately until Zeni figures out how to fix their fps issues. Yet I still see a camp go up on the east and an entire zerg bashing on a west postern and people freely port in and rez at a camp inside.

One organized group is what is making all of these complaints on Wabbajack. I still don't think you make alterations to game mechanics because one group is more organized, that's a skill gap, not a mechanics issue.

Vis

After speaking with a friend, I could understand now that simply having a cd on camps could hurt pvp and promote spies.

Another great idea we had was that camps could act as an extension from spawns.

I.E. A chain of camps stretching from any rez would allow them to rez at the last camp at the chain (with no rez limit).

That way camps are more significant, easier to disrupt, spreads out the pvp, and lowers abuse.

bitaken

dbetterton_ESO wrote: »

Which is why I again want to salute whatever drug combination kept Luvboard's group up and functioning for 8 days.

You realize he did not stay up for 8 days - that he had a rotation that he worked with and that he plays with some very close friends right?

I won't say outright if I think anyone is cheating...but 8 days?

Not even a meth addict can stay awake and reasonably sane for 8 days.

By day 7 they are losing their sanity - seeing things - and falling asleep with their eyes open in a twilight state.

So..yeah..no..he did not stay up for 8 days straight.

DrimacusMeleth

Would be good if an enemy could actually see them on the map...

Aeaeren

By now I would expect you should KNOW to go look for them instantly and burn them. You have to sweep the Keep and make sure they are down and stay down. You should expect them and be countering them already. One of the first things we do when the first wall comes down is to look for the FC and burn them. If they are outside defending them and we kill them and burn there camp well then they ain't inside defending the flag.

madangrypally

I have to agree with the OP on this one. Currently Forward Camp spawning is now a mode of fast travel that was no intended. Now that FCs are fixed they need to be balanced for the purpose they were intended.

Talcyndl

Aeaeren wrote: »

By now I would expect you should KNOW to go look for them instantly and burn them. You have to sweep the Keep and make sure they are down and stay down. You should expect them and be countering them already. One of the first things we do when the first wall comes down is to look for the FC and burn them. If they are outside defending them and we kill them and burn there camp well then they ain't inside defending the flag.

Welcome to the discussion.

Yes, that is the goal. But it is close to impossible to accomplish consistently enough in a well defended (ie, important) keep. Camps go down too fast, and once the zerg (or emp group) spawns into the keep, controlling the entire courtyard plus towers is close to impossible.

This is based on my experience from both sides of it.

Not to mention when everyone has access to all but unlimited FCs, the suicide fast travel breaks the whole concept of cutting transitus and isolating keeps.

Aeaeren

madangrypally wrote: »

Now that FCs are fixed they need to be balanced for the purpose they were intended.

Which is fast travel. Seriously do you want the defenders to also have to serve you cake and ice cream just before you murder them? Taking a Keep is supposed to be hard and in my opinion it's not hard enough at times.

Talcyndl

But the map and game design was supposed to limit fast travel to keeps with (1) all resources cut and/or (2) flagged as under attack. FCs bypass that mechanism as currently being used.

madangrypally

Aeaeren wrote: »

madangrypally wrote: »

Now that FCs are fixed they need to be balanced for the purpose they were intended.

Which is fast travel. Seriously do you want the defenders to also have to serve you cake and ice cream just before you murder them? Taking a Keep is supposed to be hard and in my opinion it's not hard enough at times.

I disagree that their purpose was fast travel.

Someone running into an enemy resource in order to rezz at a forward camp across the zone was not the design purpose of the camps.

I do agree that keeps currently need to be reworked to make them harder to take, but I dont feel forward camps are the solution. Forward camps are an issue for attackers and defenders. Its making death something to not fear since a player can be back in the battle within seconds.

Death should be something a player actively tries to avoid and in PvP the only serious consequence of a death was maybe a semi long run back. That has been taken away and there is no issue with dying since there is most likely a Forward camp close by.

Aeaeren

madangrypally wrote: »

Aeaeren wrote: »

madangrypally wrote: »

Now that FCs are fixed they need to be balanced for the purpose they were intended.

Which is fast travel. Seriously do you want the defenders to also have to serve you cake and ice cream just before you murder them? Taking a Keep is supposed to be hard and in my opinion it's not hard enough at times.

I disagree that their purpose was fast travel.

Someone running into an enemy resource in order to rezz at a forward camp across the zone was not the design purpose of the camps.

I do agree that keeps currently need to be reworked to make them harder to take, but I dont feel forward camps are the solution. Forward camps are an issue for attackers and defenders. Its making death something to not fear since a player can be back in the battle within seconds.

Death should be something a player actively tries to avoid and in PvP the only serious consequence of a death was maybe a semi long run back. That has been taken away and there is no issue with dying since there is most likely a Forward camp close by.

You can disagree all you want, the fact that ZOS knows they are being used that way just like Pulsar and talons and every other thing people whine about doesn't change the fact that they CAN be used that way. The point should be that as long as all sides can do it equally then what is the problem? It's not a cheat, it's not over powered and it's not just one side doing it. I know a lot of guilds are leaving FCs in the keep after they take the keep and move on to the next keep so they can come back to defend that keep if need be. It's a tactic that is being used, not an exploit and not a cheat.

leewells

SirAndy wrote: »

Forward camps should not be allowed *inside* keeps.

That way, people have to get back through enemy lines and a good attacking force should always have people checking the resupply lines of the enemy.

With this logic, they should just do away with forward camps entirely so a good defending force has to do the same.

Talcyndl

Aeaeren wrote: »

It's a tactic that is being used, not an exploit and not a cheat.

Don't think anyone is saying it's a cheat or exploit. It is a tactic that is allowed under the rules - which IMO should be changed.