Why is Fiery Grip being changed?

Singular

The known bugs and issues reads:

"Fiery Grip: Using this ability in Cyrodiil can pull enemies off keep walls.
STATUS: Currently investigating and testing a fix."

Why? I think it's great that DK's can pull people off walls! It's high risk to them - they have to run up under fire

I don't even have a DK, yet I'd like them to remain able to do this.

What's the problem?

hammayolettuce

Half the time this doesn't work for me anyways (yes I have extended chains and reach). It never even occurred to me that this skill wasn't intended to pull enemies off walls.

ferzalrwb17_ESO

It's their solution to stop DKs pulling people up over walls I imagine. They said they were looking into a solution for that problem. I guess that's it. Very poor.

Azarul

I hope they mean Fiery Grip shouldn't be able to pull people down, but Extended Chains still can. If I cannot pull people down off of the walls anymore it will greatly sadden me. It may sound silly but this is my favorite part of Cyrodiil.

Nozfardu

Fine by me, leave it so DKs can pull of keep walls but also allow NBs to ambush up, fairs fair.

Armitas

I'm hoping it's a typo and they mean pulling people up and not down. I don't think anyone is complaining about being pulled down the complaints are about people being pulled up.

aco5712

+1 to the ambush thing. Would be nice to get that working. and +1 for allowing DKs to pull people off and up. So fun doing that to nubs who get too close.

SilentThunder

Keep the pull down that's fine and imop a legit use. Remove the pull UP that's totally not needed and is used for nothing but exploiting. Even the rare times when its not you really don't want enemies pulled up onto your walls ever.

NO to the ambush up then you will see packs of NB using guards to get into keeps and avoid taking down walls

Sihnfahl

SilentThunder wrote: »

Remove the pull UP that's totally not needed and is used for nothing but exploiting.

Apparently it's easier for them to stop a significant Z change from the chains pull rather than make reflects not affect chains.

Azarul

SilentThunder wrote: »

Keep the pull down that's fine and imop a legit use. Remove the pull UP that's totally not needed and is used for nothing but exploiting. Even the rare times when its not you really don't want enemies pulled up onto your walls ever.

NO to the ambush up then you will see packs of NB using guards to get into keeps and avoid taking down walls

I completely agree and would sacrifice the pull up ability. I will admit though that I do pull up a low level if I see him get in range and then lock him down and proceed to kill them.

Krinaman

Sorry, but I use pull up for legitimate reasons all the time. I.E. pulling people from the flag rooms from the stairs.

Why should the guy on the ground be able to pull you down to your certain death but you can't pull them up? I get that people are exploiting this but the solution isn't to screw over the legitimate players.

Malmai

Singular wrote: »

The known bugs and issues reads:

"Fiery Grip: Using this ability in Cyrodiil can pull enemies off keep walls.
STATUS: Currently investigating and testing a fix."

Why? I think it's great that DK's can pull people off walls! It's high risk to them - they have to run up under fire

I don't even have a DK, yet I'd like them to remain able to do this.

What's the problem?

They should rather fix fps and other bigger problems (but they are listening to whiners rather) also i agree with you totally on this one.

Halrloprillalar

the problem isn't pulling people down, it's pulling people up and the scroll exploits. I guess they have no real way to distinguish legit use and abuse for these skills.

Sihnfahl

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

I guess they have no real way to distinguish legit use and abuse for these skills.

Probably because their data collection is messy. The issue is reflects, chains pull and Z modification. There's a legitimate reason why someone would go up on the Z axis (hills, overlooks, etc) following a pull, and with reflects in play, well, that's just a side-effect of the reflect.

The fix would be to reflect the damage portion and negate the pull portion on a reflected chain pull, but that would involve a bit more coding, apparently, rather than just negate significant Z changes.

Halrloprillalar

Sihnfahl wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

I guess they have no real way to distinguish legit use and abuse for these skills.

Probably because their data collection is messy. The issue is reflects, chains pull and Z modification. There's a legitimate reason why someone would go up on the Z axis (hills, overlooks, etc) following a pull, and with reflects in play, well, that's just a side-effect of the reflect.

The fix would be to reflect the damage portion and negate the pull portion on a reflected chain pull, but that would involve a bit more coding, apparently, rather than just negate significant Z changes.

No the issue is faction alts pulling people over the wall: there is no way to code against this specifically within the skill itself.

bsheffield2008ub17_ESO

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

Sihnfahl wrote: »

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

I guess they have no real way to distinguish legit use and abuse for these skills.

Probably because their data collection is messy. The issue is reflects, chains pull and Z modification. There's a legitimate reason why someone would go up on the Z axis (hills, overlooks, etc) following a pull, and with reflects in play, well, that's just a side-effect of the reflect.

The fix would be to reflect the damage portion and negate the pull portion on a reflected chain pull, but that would involve a bit more coding, apparently, rather than just negate significant Z changes.

No the issue is faction alts pulling people over the wall: there is no way to code against this specifically within the skill itself.

dis

Sihnfahl

Halrloprillalar wrote: »

No the issue is faction alts pulling people over the wall: there is no way to code against this specifically within the skill itself.

Which can be done in either one of two ways. DK on the target side, pull into target side, or DK on initial side and reflect chains.

The skill's pull portion allows for significant Z axis changes. The only way to prevent that in the skill is to disallow significant Z axis changes or shorten the range of a chain pull so that even with Assault line for greater range at Keeps won't be far enough to pull them up.

TheBull

To the ground!

demonlkojipub19_ESO

They don't need to change up or down pulling for fiery grip or its base or its other morph. They need to fix the fact that, when a keep has no breached wall, or a gate to elder scroll shrine is closed, there should be an invisible one-way movement wall against those who don't own the keep so they can't be pulled passed it.

Azarul

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

They don't need to change up or down pulling for fiery grip or its base or its other morph. They need to fix the fact that, when a keep has no breached wall, or a gate to elder scroll shrine is closed, there should be an invisible one-way movement wall against those who don't own the keep so they can't be pulled passed it.

This is the answer IMO. Just like at the home bases. If the wall isn't breached then you get teleported out.

FENGRUSH

None of these solutions work. They will have unintended consequences!

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Azarul wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

They don't need to change up or down pulling for fiery grip or its base or its other morph. They need to fix the fact that, when a keep has no breached wall, or a gate to elder scroll shrine is closed, there should be an invisible one-way movement wall against those who don't own the keep so they can't be pulled passed it.

This is the answer IMO. Just like at the home bases. If the wall isn't breached then you get teleported out.

It cant be a teleport out with keeps, because then the owners of the keep can just repair the outside wall while you aren't paying attention and then your whole assault force gets teleported out. The same if they take back the gate keep while you have people attacking the scroll fairly while the gate was open. Its gotta be a wall while its closed or theres no breached wall.

Dleatherus

FENGRUSH wrote: »

None of these solutions work. They will have unintended consequences!

no matter what the 'fix' is they will have unintended consequences to the majority due to the intended 'innovative' use of them by the minority

D.

Azarul

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Azarul wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

They don't need to change up or down pulling for fiery grip or its base or its other morph. They need to fix the fact that, when a keep has no breached wall, or a gate to elder scroll shrine is closed, there should be an invisible one-way movement wall against those who don't own the keep so they can't be pulled passed it.

This is the answer IMO. Just like at the home bases. If the wall isn't breached then you get teleported out.

It cant be a teleport out with keeps, because then the owners of the keep can just repair the outside wall while you aren't paying attention and then your whole assault force gets teleported out. The same if they take back the gate keep while you have people attacking the scroll fairly while the gate was open. Its gotta be a wall while its closed or theres no breached wall.

Yeah I guess your right

Sihnfahl

FENGRUSH wrote: »

None of these solutions work. They will have unintended consequences!

Oh, there are always consequences to changes, but sometimes the consequences are far preferable to the status quo.

CaptainSilverbrow

Singular wrote: »

The known bugs and issues reads:

"Fiery Grip: Using this ability in Cyrodiil can pull enemies off keep walls.
STATUS: Currently investigating and testing a fix."

Why? I think it's great that DK's can pull people off walls! It's high risk to them - they have to run up under fire

Because it's not dangerous when they pull you into a zerg, which is what usually happens. If they are sieging a keep, they are going to pull you into their group, you are going to die, and your defending force will be whittled away because the attackers' 10 or so opportunistic Dragonknights will just keep pulling your guys off walls to be lit up by their 5/8 or so Sorcs and Destro DKs. They also pull players off siege engines at locations they should not be able to do so unless they're in the keep. This isn't even a slippery slope, this is the reality of the game.

I don't even have a DK, yet I'd like them to remain able to do this.

Sounds totes legit, m8.

What's the problem?

You must be European.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Singular wrote: »

The known bugs and issues reads:

"Fiery Grip: Using this ability in Cyrodiil can pull enemies off keep walls.
STATUS: Currently investigating and testing a fix."

Why? I think it's great that DK's can pull people off walls! It's high risk to them - they have to run up under fire

I don't even have a DK, yet I'd like them to remain able to do this.

What's the problem?

Its being changed because ZOS doesnt want to nerf what really needs nerfed, sticks and skirts.

FENGRUSH

Dleatherus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

None of these solutions work. They will have unintended consequences!

no matter what the 'fix' is they will have unintended consequences to the majority due to the intended 'innovative' use of them by the minority

D.

But the suggestions here would make things worse off so far.

Bloodvax

It makes it scary to be defending on the walls knowing a DK could yank you off the walls, it adds an awesome element to the game. That ability would be complete crap in PVP if it couldnt do that. Its also funny when another DK reflects the chain and pulls the other DK UP onto the walls. I honestly thought that ability was perfect that way.

InvictoNZ

It will have to be one hell of a fix.

Because sometimes pulling someone up onto a wall to kill them and leave them with no way to get a rez from their group is a valid tactic.

Tintinabula

They'll have to look into BE again as well then. Ppl are using BE in a combo of jumping terrain and getting to spots where they're unreachable and can't be targeted. BE needs to follow the ground like charge.(path of least resistance.)