Its time to talk seriously about a Real-money store to combat bots

rfpalmerb16_ESO

I’ve said it once – and I’ll say it again. The only way to combat bots and gold sellers is for ZOS to open its own real-world money store. Not a store where subscribers can sell things for real money but a store where you can buy in-game gold and other non-game-balance items.

Now, some of you will say: “NO PAY TO WIN”

To this I respond: “There are people who already pay to win since they can afford to purchase over-priced items either from, or using gold purchased from gold/item sellers.”

Some of you would say: “It will ruin the Economy”
I say: “The Economy is already in ruins due to bots, and bots and aggregators selling items at absurd prices.”

Let’s not be children or unrealistic idealists. Bots exist in the game because:

• people want to use their real-world wealth (money) to enhance their gaming (entertainment) experience.
• People look for ways to bypass activities they consider unfun or non-productive.
• ZOS can not change that behaviour.

If a person is earning 100K a year and only gets a couple of hours a week to play you can bet they don’t want to have to waste that time doing, what they consider un-fun things.

So why should ZOS offer gold and items for sale? Well they can offer and adjust the price of items to manage the in-game economy. Money from in-game items purchased goes into the GAME and not into some bot-runner’s mom’s basement. How is that not a good thing? ZOS can offer secure transactions – so you don’t worry about your payment information being stolen. Now, everything that is sold in the store should be there and available to get freely by playing the game. Bots are ruining our gaming experience and the only way to combat them is to remove the financial incentive that drives them to farm gold and items. And the system works (to varying degrees depending on the way it is implemented and managed) -- otherwise F2P games would not exist.

The Items I think ZOS could sell are:

• In-game gold
• Some Crafting Items
• Motifs
• Player-pets
• Armor paints
• But NEVER items like weapons, armor, rings etc.)

I am not saying its not a risky proposition for ruining game mechanics but the benefits outweigh the costs -- considering the worst-case scenario is the direction the status quo is taking us.

So now we wait for the bot aggregators and hyper-collectors and elitist gamers to complain how bad this would be for the game – meaning themselves and not the other 99% of us who just want to enjoy a little entertainment. Also, for fun, lets watch the deluge of slipery-slope, red-herrings, ad hominem, divine fallacy, ad nauseam arguments.

In short, I'd rather people pay ZOS than some botter.

Misty

Yeah, I don't think buying gold legit from the makers would harm the game as much as these plagues of bots are. Take Eve and guild wars 2.

dennissomb16_ESO

Unfortunately it does not work. GW2 is the perfect example. You could buy gold from them, botters sold it cheaper. At release GW2 had bots everywhere, and even now almost 2 years later go to cursed shores and 90% of the toons there are necro bots. On top of this, not all botters/hacker/cheaters are RMT. many are simply sad human beings who have to cheat in games.
You combat bots with GMs and programs, or not at all

Wintersage

Never.

Good talk.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Yeah it worked wonders for guild wars 2. They didn't have to nerf the end game it launched with into the ground because of bots or anything... Oh wait yes it did... Holding it up as an example as a success of selling in game gold to reduce bots seems mostly stupid.

rfpalmerb16_ESO

I reiterate:

And the system works (to varying degrees depending on the way it is implemented and managed)

You would think with the collective intelligence of some of the people here we could collectively come up with a way of doing this. Hence:
talk seriously about a Real-money

Yes some companies have failed and some have succeeded. What caused those that failed to fail? What caused those to succeed to succeed? How can TESO implement a successful real-world money store?

Even a 80% reduction in bots is a win!
(meaning that it is a logical error to toss out an idea because it is not 100% successful 100% of the time)

As for

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

Unfortunately it does not work. GW2 is the perfect example. You could buy gold from them, botters sold it cheaper

So that is a management failure on the part of GW2 who should be actively lowering the price of in-store purchases to UNDERCUT the botters. And remember, this is not advocating going F2P -- that is a horrible idea.

dennissomb16_ESO

rfpalmerb16_ESO wrote: »

I reiterate:

And the system works (to varying degrees depending on the way it is implemented and managed)

You would think with the collective intelligence of some of the people here we could collectively come up with a way of doing this. Hence:
talk seriously about a Real-money

Yes some companies have failed and some have succeeded. What caused those that failed to fail? What caused those to succeed to succeed? How can TESO implement a successful real-world money store?

Even a 80% reduction in bots is a win!
(meaning that it is a logical error to toss out an idea because it is not 100% successful 100% of the time)

As for

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

Unfortunately it does not work. GW2 is the perfect example. You could buy gold from them, botters sold it cheaper

So that is a management failure on the part of GW2 who should be actively lowering the price of in-store purchases to UNDERCUT the botters. And remember, this is not advocating going F2P -- that is a horrible idea.

Problem here is you claim some MMOs have succeeded combating bots with RMT. this may be true, but I have never played one that has. Rift, GW2, Aion, all went RMT and failed to combat bots/hackers. maybe if you gave an example of a successful MMO that combated Bots with RMT that would help the discussion

xramirez535b14_ESO

Cash shop is fine, but most have seen it implemented in idiotic ways. I would much rather it have a cash shop GW2 style WITHOUT the armors and weapon skins. Having skins in the Cash Shop ruined much of the feel the game had for collecting skins by doing content. I dont touch GW2 anymore because of it. Purely convenient services (makeover kits, xp boosters, armor repair items) and maybe some common mini pets as well would be great.

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

Bleh cash shops make me spend so much money. Hate them!

bluddenguttzb16_ESO

Eve Online introduced their PLEX system as a way for players to use real money to buy in-game currency.

Players would buy buy game time codes directly from CCP (the devs) with real money and then sell them within the game for ISK.

CCP got the cash to develop the game.

GTC sellers got the in-game currency to enhance their gameplay.

GTC buyers had a way to play the game for free!

Not saying that this would get rid of the bots etc... but it would be a start

All it needs is a decent trading system within the game for players to spend their gold

rfpalmerb16_ESO

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

Problem here is you claim some MMOs have succeeded combating bots with RMT. this may be true, but I have never played one that has. Rift, GW2, Aion, all went RMT and failed to combat bots/hackers. maybe if you gave an example of a successful MMO that combated Bots with RMT that would help the discussion

Well, given my limited knowledge I would say that MWO and WOT handle real-world currency purchases well (although I think they did it by eliminating player trades and we are not talking about how good or bad their game-play is).

I do, however, find it hard to believe that we, as a community, and the development team can't come up with some ideas on how to make it work. If you can make it uneconomical for commercial botters to work in the environment -- they will leave. Then you only have the hobby botters to deal with.

Xuxilbara

Would you mind explaining to me what's the difference between selling gold, but not selling armor and weapons? Why did you say they should never do that?

rfpalmerb16_ESO wrote: »

So now we wait for the bot aggregators and hyper-collectors and elitist gamers to complain how bad this would be for the game – meaning themselves and not the other 99% of us who just want to enjoy a little entertainment. Also, for fun, lets watch the deluge of slipery-slope, red-herrings, ad hominem, divine fallacy, ad nauseam arguments.

So basicially: Everyone not agreeing with you is some kind of elitist with wrong arguments?

daneyulebub17_ESO

Worst. Idea. Ever.

The economy is NOT in ruins. That's one of those ridiculous statements people toss around with no evidence whatsoever.

But--the economy likely would be in ruins if this idea was implemented as many, many more people would buy gold and other items if it was sanctioned by the devs. And as in EVERY other game with micro transactions, once the money starts rolling in, the bean counters start rationalizing just what "pay to win" means--and you end up with buff scrolls, mounts, etc. for sale.

But.... why would a "no pay to win items" policy matter anyway if buying gold is part of the actual, sanctioned game? If buying gold is allowed, the whole game is pay to win anyway as you are then buying the means to purchase weapons, crafting goods, etc, etc, etc.

Worst. Idea. Ever.

Bots are ruining our gaming experience and the only way to combat them is to remove the financial incentive that drives them to farm gold and items. And the system works (to varying degrees depending on the way it is implemented and managed) -- otherwise F2P games would not exist.

Dear god, you're arguing for this because its profitable for F2P games? You want ESO to become more like an F2P? It's like you don't even understand what this game can and should be striving for.

To say "the only way to remove bots" is to do allow gold buying is silly. 7 weeks. SEVEN WEEKS. That's how long the game has been out. They'll deal with the bots. They don't need to deal with them by turning this game into a semi-F2P, micro-transactional, gold selling mess. There's more than enough of those MMOs out there.

Worst. Idea. Ever.

Let’s not be children or unrealistic idealists. Bots exist in the game because:
people want to use their real-world wealth (money) to enhance their gaming (entertainment) experience.
People look for ways to bypass activities they consider unfun or non-productive.
ZOS can not change that behaviour.

Yeah. There will always be people who want to play the game in a way completely against the developers intention of a long-lasting, challenging MMO by buying their way through it. If every game catered to them, we'd all be playing god-awful, free-to -play, face-roll, pay-to-win, lowest-common-denominator, play-for-a-month-and-move-on crap. This game is trying to be better than that--quit pushing them to give up the fight.

You're talking about destroying the game.

One more time:

Worst. Idea. Ever.

rfpalmerb16_ESO

Xuxilbara wrote: »

Would you mind explaining to me what's the difference between selling gold, but not selling armor and weapons? Why did you say they should never do that?

So basicially: Everyone not agreeing with you is some kind of elitist with wrong arguments?

First, in my opinions you have to draw the line somewhere in a real-money store. Considering this game has crafting, selling items in a real-money store would ruin that aspect of the game. Perhaps even selling crafting agents is a bad idea. There is a fine line that needs to be tread and exactly where that lies is something that needs to be figured out. I don't have the answers, I just have the questions.

The big thing with purchased gold, in my experience, is that it is usually purchased for a specific purpose and just as quickly spent.

Second, yes I employed a very USA-esq debate strategy of labeling anyone who disagrees with you as being something/someone bad or with an ulterior motive. Not very nice but, if US politics is any indication, effective. Still I would have to believe that someone who is not, at least, open to the suggestion of or have a discussion about a properly done and maintained real-money store is not being completely honest.

Maverick827

I can't imagine why people would be against a store selling horses (already exists), bank spaces, inventory spaces, character name changes, guild name changes, respecs, etc. These don't impact anyone.

"They might one day start selling powerful items" is slippery slope; it's not a valid argument.

Lox

rfpalmerb16_ESO wrote: »

The Items I think ZOS could sell are:

• In-game gold
• Some Crafting Items
• Motifs
• Player-pets
• Armor paints
• But NEVER items like weapons, armor, rings etc.)

Why not weapons, armor, rings etc?

If you are making in-game gold available via real money purchase then you might aswell make everything available via that means or nothing but in-game gold.

If people can't but the actual weapon, armor or ring they will just buy the gold then buy it via ingame means ... there is no difference.

daneyulebub17_ESO

rfpalmerb16_ESO wrote: »

Second, yes I employed a very USA-esq debate strategy of labeling anyone who disagrees with you as being something/someone bad or with an ulterior motive. Not very nice but, if US politics is any indication, effective.

Uh---yeah. The US invented that (rolls eyes).

What an incredibly ignorant, off-topic, trollish thing to say.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Lox wrote: »

rfpalmerb16_ESO wrote: »

The Items I think ZOS could sell are:

• In-game gold
• Some Crafting Items
• Motifs
• Player-pets
• Armor paints
• But NEVER items like weapons, armor, rings etc.)

Why not weapons, armor, rings etc?

If you are making in-game gold available via real money purchase then you might aswell make everything available via that means or nothing but in-game gold.

If people can't but the actual weapon, armor or ring they will just buy the gold then buy it via ingame means ... there is no difference.

Because when you added this you would also add new vendors! And they would sell all the best stuff for a separate currency! One you got from running a dungeon 900 times. Or perhaps doing 2000 daily quest. That way people could buy equip with their gold, but not the best equip, so everything would be ok. See no problem! If we are lucky by the time the game turns 1 year old we can have 15 different currencies in the game. But we better get started!

rfpalmerb16_ESO

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Worst. Idea. Ever.

The economy is NOT in ruins. That's one of those ridiculous statements people toss around with no evidence whatsoever.

Maybe you are right, but bots are an issue and the items they sell do have an impact on the economy no?

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

But--the economy likely would be in ruins if this idea was implemented as many, many more people would buy gold and other items if it was sanctioned by the devs. And as in EVERY other game with micro transactions, once the money starts rolling in, the bean counters start rationalizing just what "pay to win" means--and you end up with buff scrolls, mounts, etc. for sale.

Slippery slope argument fallacy. It may be true in other implementations that does not mean it has to be true here.

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

But.... why would a "no pay to win items" policy matter anyway if buying gold is part of the actual, sanctioned game? If buying gold is allowed, the whole game is pay to win anyway as you are then buying the means to purchase weapons, crafting goods, etc, etc, etc.

Yes, true. But the money used to purchase items, materials etc would then flow to other players -- giving them money to purchase. So yes, the person who buys the epic sword use RW money to buy it and is trying to P2W, but the person who sold it to him now has is gold and they could, if they choose, also P2W with the gold he/she so easily parted with. In a game like this where skills matter more than items -- its not as big a deal as you would make it out to be.

Also, the devs get to control an otherwise uncontrolled aspect of the game. Could you imagine a government that has no control over monetary policy within it's economy?

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Dear god, you're arguing for this because its profitable for F2P games? You want ESO to become more like an F2P? It's like you don't even understand what this game can and should be striving for.

I think i understand quite well. The game is trying to be a long-running highly profitable entertainment venue. This is accomplished by providing an engaging environment that encourages people to pay to use and encouraging players to personally invest in the game ensuring a long-standing mutually beneficial relationship.

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

To say "the only way to remove bots" is to do allow gold buying is silly. 7 weeks. SEVEN WEEKS. That's how long the game has been out. They'll deal with the bots. They don't need to deal with them by turning this game into a semi-F2P, micro-transactional, gold selling mess. There's more than enough of those MMOs out there.

To use one of your methods of looking at other games as justification for your opinion -- how long has WOW been fighting bots? Have they been successful?

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Yeah. There will always be people who want to play the game in a way completely against the developers intention of a long-lasting, challenging MMO by buying their way through it. If every game catered to them, we'd all be playing god-awful free to play face roll pay to win lowest common denominator play for a month and move on crap. This game is trying to be better than that--quit pushing them to give up the fight.

I said nothing about F2P aside from i think it is a HORRIBLE idea. Paying a monthly subscription encourages more involvement from players and, reduces the financial benefit from commercial botting. And I impressed that you have such insight into the design teams vision.

So I summarize you argument as:

• No one else can do it -- so we cant.
• The accountants will take control and ruin the game because they did it else-where.
• TESO is not a business its a vision, a dream of a different world that should not be bound by the rules of business and modern commerce.
• Appealing to a large number of people is inherently bad.
• I don't like it so its bad.

Its OK to be passionate about the game, just don't let it make you unreasonable, irrational or blind to new ideas.

kasain

rfpalmerb16_ESO wrote: »

I’ve said it once – and I’ll say it again. The only way to combat bots and gold sellers is for ZOS to open its own real-world money store. Not a store where subscribers can sell things for real money but a store where you can buy in-game gold and other non-game-balance items.

Now, some of you will say: “NO PAY TO WIN”

To this I respond: “There are people who already pay to win since they can afford to purchase over-priced items either from, or using gold purchased from gold/item sellers.”

Some of you would say: “It will ruin the Economy”
I say: “The Economy is already in ruins due to bots, and bots and aggregators selling items at absurd prices.”

Let’s not be children or unrealistic idealists. Bots exist in the game because:

• people want to use their real-world wealth (money) to enhance their gaming (entertainment) experience.
• People look for ways to bypass activities they consider unfun or non-productive.
• ZOS can not change that behaviour.

If a person is earning 100K a year and only gets a couple of hours a week to play you can bet they don’t want to have to waste that time doing, what they consider un-fun things.

So why should ZOS offer gold and items for sale? Well they can offer and adjust the price of items to manage the in-game economy. Money from in-game items purchased goes into the GAME and not into some bot-runner’s mom’s basement. How is that not a good thing? ZOS can offer secure transactions – so you don’t worry about your payment information being stolen. Now, everything that is sold in the store should be there and available to get freely by playing the game. Bots are ruining our gaming experience and the only way to combat them is to remove the financial incentive that drives them to farm gold and items. And the system works (to varying degrees depending on the way it is implemented and managed) -- otherwise F2P games would not exist.

The Items I think ZOS could sell are:

• In-game gold
• Some Crafting Items
• Motifs
• Player-pets
• Armor paints
• But NEVER items like weapons, armor, rings etc.)

I am not saying its not a risky proposition for ruining game mechanics but the benefits outweigh the costs -- considering the worst-case scenario is the direction the status quo is taking us.

So now we wait for the bot aggregators and hyper-collectors and elitist gamers to complain how bad this would be for the game – meaning themselves and not the other 99% of us who just want to enjoy a little entertainment. Also, for fun, lets watch the deluge of slipery-slope, red-herrings, ad hominem, divine fallacy, ad nauseam arguments.

In short, I'd rather people pay ZOS than some botter.

To the UNEDUCATED...... NO!!!!!!!

This is a sub game. I pay money, SO I don't buy items in a store. If I pay no sub, fine store is ok. Can't do both.

Bryong9ub17_ESO

Okay so forgive me, but i didn't read your full post or any of the replays, but only one thing came to mind after i saw "real money store"....

Diablo III

that is all.

Maverick827

kasain wrote: »

rfpalmerb16_ESO wrote: »

I’ve said it once – and I’ll say it again. The only way to combat bots and gold sellers is for ZOS to open its own real-world money store. Not a store where subscribers can sell things for real money but a store where you can buy in-game gold and other non-game-balance items.

Now, some of you will say: “NO PAY TO WIN”

To this I respond: “There are people who already pay to win since they can afford to purchase over-priced items either from, or using gold purchased from gold/item sellers.”

Some of you would say: “It will ruin the Economy”
I say: “The Economy is already in ruins due to bots, and bots and aggregators selling items at absurd prices.”

Let’s not be children or unrealistic idealists. Bots exist in the game because:

• people want to use their real-world wealth (money) to enhance their gaming (entertainment) experience.
• People look for ways to bypass activities they consider unfun or non-productive.
• ZOS can not change that behaviour.

If a person is earning 100K a year and only gets a couple of hours a week to play you can bet they don’t want to have to waste that time doing, what they consider un-fun things.

So why should ZOS offer gold and items for sale? Well they can offer and adjust the price of items to manage the in-game economy. Money from in-game items purchased goes into the GAME and not into some bot-runner’s mom’s basement. How is that not a good thing? ZOS can offer secure transactions – so you don’t worry about your payment information being stolen. Now, everything that is sold in the store should be there and available to get freely by playing the game. Bots are ruining our gaming experience and the only way to combat them is to remove the financial incentive that drives them to farm gold and items. And the system works (to varying degrees depending on the way it is implemented and managed) -- otherwise F2P games would not exist.

The Items I think ZOS could sell are:

• In-game gold
• Some Crafting Items
• Motifs
• Player-pets
• Armor paints
• But NEVER items like weapons, armor, rings etc.)

I am not saying its not a risky proposition for ruining game mechanics but the benefits outweigh the costs -- considering the worst-case scenario is the direction the status quo is taking us.

So now we wait for the bot aggregators and hyper-collectors and elitist gamers to complain how bad this would be for the game – meaning themselves and not the other 99% of us who just want to enjoy a little entertainment. Also, for fun, lets watch the deluge of slipery-slope, red-herrings, ad hominem, divine fallacy, ad nauseam arguments.

In short, I'd rather people pay ZOS than some botter.

To the UNEDUCATED...... NO!!!!!!!

This is a sub game. I pay money, SO I don't buy items in a store. If I pay no sub, fine store is ok. Can't do both.

You won't have to buy items in the store. Why would you think that you would?

rfpalmerb16_ESO

kasain wrote: »

rfpalmerb16_ESO wrote: »

To the UNEDUCATED...... NO!!!!!!!

This is a sub game. I pay money, SO I don't buy items in a store. If I pay no sub, fine store is ok. Can't do both.

You missed the point, you don't -- I applaud you. I don't either. Others do and, they are the ones who are affecting our game play. We either find some way to accommodate them or we put up with endless droves of bots sub-surface harvesting and chain killing quest mobs.

rfpalmerb16_ESO

Bryong9ub17_ESO wrote: »

Okay so forgive me, but i didn't read your full post or any of the replays, but only one thing came to mind after i saw "real money store"....

Diablo III

that is all.

That was a real-money auction house not a real-money store -- something different and IMHO a bad idea.

Maverick827

Bryong9ub17_ESO wrote: »

Okay so forgive me, but i didn't read your full post or any of the replays, but

I forgive you for contributing nothing to the thread. Just don't do it again.

rfpalmerb16_ESO

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Uh---yeah. The US invented that (rolls eyes).

What an incredibly ignorant, off-topic, trollish thing to say

You are right, I apologize.

p.hurst1b16_ESO

Other P2P's have added a limited store to combat the black market.

Understand that although the black market is against the terms it is not illegal or anything because you do not really pay for gold or anything. You pay someone to go and collect the gold for you. It is a service. People are paying for that service.

So to reduce it you need to understand why some will buy a gold farming service.

- max out bank and bag slots on a toon
- buy horses for a toon
- reset skills on a toon
- buy a lot of materials to craft with
- buy a lot of gear to break
- buy gear to use

You cannot get rid of all those reasons in a subbed game but you CAN get rid of some.

Game Store Services

Skill Reset Token
Bank Slot Token
Bag Slot Token
Stat Reset Token

The Palamino Horse is already there and it is account bound so you get it on any character you create.

The prices would need to be quite low. $5 for the skill reset would be fair. It is not to compete with RMT prices because the legitimacy of the transaction has value.

rfpalmerb16_ESO

p.hurst1b16_ESO wrote: »

Other P2P's have added a limited store to combat the black market.

Understand that although the black market is against the terms it is not illegal or anything because you do not really pay for gold or anything. You pay someone to go and collect the gold for you. It is a service. People are paying for that service.

So to reduce it you need to understand why some will buy a gold farming service.

- max out bank and bag slots on a toon
- buy horses for a toon
- reset skills on a toon
- buy a lot of materials to craft with
- buy a lot of gear to break
- buy gear to use

You cannot get rid of all those reasons in a subbed game but you CAN get rid of some.

Game Store Services

Skill Reset Token
Bank Slot Token
Bag Slot Token
Stat Reset Token

The Palamino Horse is already there and it is account bound so you get it on any character you create.

The prices would need to be quite low. $5 for the skill reset would be fair. It is not to compete with RMT prices because the legitimacy of the transaction has value.

Insightful. Depending on how money is spent you could add or remove tokens based on the needs / requirements of your players. It would require that you keep track of what people are spending the most money on.

Misty

How does the gold get from the seller to the player? Maybe they could do something there.

kasain

Maverick827 wrote: »

kasain wrote: »

rfpalmerb16_ESO wrote: »

I’ve said it once – and I’ll say it again. The only way to combat bots and gold sellers is for ZOS to open its own real-world money store. Not a store where subscribers can sell things for real money but a store where you can buy in-game gold and other non-game-balance items.

Now, some of you will say: “NO PAY TO WIN”

To this I respond: “There are people who already pay to win since they can afford to purchase over-priced items either from, or using gold purchased from gold/item sellers.”

Some of you would say: “It will ruin the Economy”
I say: “The Economy is already in ruins due to bots, and bots and aggregators selling items at absurd prices.”

Let’s not be children or unrealistic idealists. Bots exist in the game because:

• people want to use their real-world wealth (money) to enhance their gaming (entertainment) experience.
• People look for ways to bypass activities they consider unfun or non-productive.
• ZOS can not change that behaviour.

If a person is earning 100K a year and only gets a couple of hours a week to play you can bet they don’t want to have to waste that time doing, what they consider un-fun things.

So why should ZOS offer gold and items for sale? Well they can offer and adjust the price of items to manage the in-game economy. Money from in-game items purchased goes into the GAME and not into some bot-runner’s mom’s basement. How is that not a good thing? ZOS can offer secure transactions – so you don’t worry about your payment information being stolen. Now, everything that is sold in the store should be there and available to get freely by playing the game. Bots are ruining our gaming experience and the only way to combat them is to remove the financial incentive that drives them to farm gold and items. And the system works (to varying degrees depending on the way it is implemented and managed) -- otherwise F2P games would not exist.

The Items I think ZOS could sell are:

• In-game gold
• Some Crafting Items
• Motifs
• Player-pets
• Armor paints
• But NEVER items like weapons, armor, rings etc.)

I am not saying its not a risky proposition for ruining game mechanics but the benefits outweigh the costs -- considering the worst-case scenario is the direction the status quo is taking us.

So now we wait for the bot aggregators and hyper-collectors and elitist gamers to complain how bad this would be for the game – meaning themselves and not the other 99% of us who just want to enjoy a little entertainment. Also, for fun, lets watch the deluge of slipery-slope, red-herrings, ad hominem, divine fallacy, ad nauseam arguments.

In short, I'd rather people pay ZOS than some botter.

To the UNEDUCATED...... NO!!!!!!!

This is a sub game. I pay money, SO I don't buy items in a store. If I pay no sub, fine store is ok. Can't do both.

You won't have to buy items in the store. Why would you think that you would?

If you pay a sub, and allow a store for real money. Then you agree to BOTS!. As they sell gold. Buying items in a shop is pretty much pay to win or enjoy. Add that to a sub fee it is wrong. And this is far from a top notch game as it is.

It probably doesn't have 500k subs, let alone 1m 2m+ like other MMOS who could get away with it. Money shop would be 100k less subs.

ViciousMink

I've uneasy about a real-money store contemporaneous with a subscription. STO did that and that was the first step down a long, unpleasant road. We already give ZSO money. As much as I would like to pay for the Imperial and Daedric motifs, and for some way to level up Enchanting a bit faster, I don't think a real money store is the way to do that.