I wanted to be paladin, but I ended up a gimped wizard

Chrysolis

Your first post was utterly wrong, it wasn't all over the place. My first post did indeed refer to your ignorance - but, ignorance is not stupidity. It just means you don't know. I'm ignorant about tons of things in the world, but I don't defend them vehemently.

Then you asked what other games before WoW had two-handed weapons as a skill line for paladins, and I answered you. To clarify, Paladins in EQ were always tanks and almost always used two-handed weapons. Saying that 2h is "classically" DPS is, in fact, ignorant. Historically, Paladins never had as much DPS as other classes - but more defense and healing spells, making them one of the hardest to kill.

If your only reference point for games is WoW, that's ok, but don't claim some kind of long lineage aside from that one game. And yes, I attacked you personally - honestly, you deserved it.

Gisgo

Zepheric wrote: »

This paladin concept was introduced in WoW with the retribution tree, I am sorry that this game is not WoW.

LOL?

snowmanflvb14_ESO

Zepheric wrote: »

Glass cannon implies that you have some utilizable skills going into a fight but quickly lose sustained DPS, which has plagued DPS paladins for awhile.

I say WoW because that is more comparable to this game than EQ1 which is frankly 2 generations ago.

But again my point was, this build is not necessarily meant to be easy, and in any MMO (at least for a long time) this build was HARD and meant to be tough to play.

I need to clarify what I said, I don't think WoW invented the paladin I merely meant the concept that you could be a 2h paladin and be successful as another mainstream DPS class is not true in this game (and used to not be true in the other games it originated from)

again wrong. Paladins were very good dps with a 2hander in EQ infact that was their DPS set up heavy armor and a 2 hander for dps, heavy armor and sword and board for tank/offtank. Heavy armor and either form or a staff for pure healer. All WoW "introduced" although I am sure other games before it problably had it was the false concept that a healer paladin should equip cloth and staff.

snowmanflvb14_ESO

Slow weapons does not mean poor dps. You stab a guy with a dagger 5 times or you hit once with a really big sword and cleave him in two. The dps numbers can be exactly the same. One does less damage with each hit than the other but the damage over all in the same amount of time is the same.
As to the op my guild has vet 12 tempalrs in heavy with 2 handers, heavy with sword and board, and yes light with staffs. They are all the same players just changing their gear out depending on what their role is going to be at that time. With the abundance of skill points you can fill many roles just by changing out your gear and resetting what skills are on your hot bars.

VlVEC

Zepheric

Okay, I understand and accept the fact that I am wrong about the historical lineage of the paladin.

However, is it wrong to assume that 75% of the population of this game is familiar more with games made after 2004?

Given that the most populous age group in the united states is 22 I can assume that most hadn't encountered EQ with the familiarity some of you hold with it.

So why should I use a reference that isn't understood by most of the gaming population and also the largest age group in the United States?.

Comparing WoW to EQ and comparing the similarities ESO is like comparing an apple and a orange and seeing if the banana copied anything from the apple.

The results don't make sense, and the comparison doesn't make sense.

I don't think an ESO paladin should equal a WoW paladin and I don't think a WoW paladin equals an EQ paladin.

These games are different and we should talk about them like they are different, maybe a paladin doesn't exist here?

Birfreben_Kinghelred

snowmanflvb14_ESO wrote: »

Zepheric wrote: »

This paladin concept was introduced in WoW with the retribution tree, I am sorry that this game is not WoW.

actually, it was EQ that introduced it many years before WoW

The earlier Warcraft rts' had paladin units. It was not introduced with either everquest or warcraft. The first game to use paladins as we know them, was dungeons and dragons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin
see modern media tab.

Gisgo

Guys Eye of the Beholder had paladins in 1979, and yes they could use great swords too.
If we are talking about pen and papers rpgs we can go back to the sixties.

And no, not everyone playing this game is a 22 years old american guy.

Chrysolis

Zepheric wrote: »

Okay, I understand and accept the fact that I am wrong about the historical lineage of the paladin.

However, is it wrong to assume that 75% of the population of this game is familiar more with games made after 2004?

Given that the most populous age group in the united states is 22 I can assume that most hadn't encountered EQ with the familiarity some of you hold with it.

So why should I use a reference that isn't understood by most of the gaming population and also the largest age group in the United States?.

Comparing WoW to EQ and comparing the similarities ESO is like comparing an apple and a orange and seeing if the banana copied anything from the apple.

The results don't make sense, and the comparison doesn't make sense.

I don't think an ESO paladin should equal a WoW paladin and I don't think a WoW paladin equals an EQ paladin.

These games are different and we should talk about them like they are different, maybe a paladin doesn't exist here?

I think it is wrong to assume that 75% of the population is familiar with games made after 2004, absolutely. There's a huge number of gamers past their early 20's now.

Look, your point was that the historical lineage of paladins followed a WoW model. I pointed out that was wrong. You just pointed out that was wrong. So why do you still want to disagree?

Zepheric

Sure many people are familiar with it, but how many know the ins and outs of class structure and end game of those games?

I am only disagreeing that we should compare classes that exist in other games and the way they operate to this game.

Because it is a bad comparison.

Glurin

snowmanflvb14_ESO wrote: »

Zepheric wrote: »

This paladin concept was introduced in WoW with the retribution tree, I am sorry that this game is not WoW.

actually, it was EQ that introduced it many years before WoW

Nuh uh. EQ just copied Lord of the Rings, which as we all know is just a ripoff of Dungeons and Dragons, who got all their ideas from WoW, and WoW is nothing but a bad Doom clone.

Tandor

Zepheric wrote: »

Okay, I understand and accept the fact that I am wrong about the historical lineage of the paladin.

You would have come across far better if you had just stopped there. All that followed was more mistaken nonsense that has the effect of negating the apology and confirming to the rest of us that you simply don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Tandor

Glurin wrote: »

snowmanflvb14_ESO wrote: »

Zepheric wrote: »

This paladin concept was introduced in WoW with the retribution tree, I am sorry that this game is not WoW.

actually, it was EQ that introduced it many years before WoW

Nuh uh. EQ just copied Lord of the Rings, which as we all know is just a ripoff of Dungeons and Dragons, who got all their ideas from WoW, and WoW is nothing but a bad Doom clone.

I'm sure that Anarchy Online will get round to inventing the paladin just as soon as they've finished the graphics overhaul.

Chrysolis

Zepheric wrote: »

Sure many people are familiar with it, but how many know the ins and outs of class structure and end game of those games?

I am only disagreeing that we should compare classes that exist in other games and the way they operate to this game.

Because it is a bad comparison.

I couldn't tell you, I haven't done a study on that criteria. If we can't compare the classes in this game to classes in other games, what should we compare it to?

Elder scrolls games have also traditionally offered a pre-made Paladin class (see Knight or Crusader) which features restoration magic, heavy armor and 2h weapons & 1h/shield respectively. It was a very viable, even powerful way to play those games. I'm willing to bet there's plenty of Skyrim players here that also followed this formula, and that was an excellent way to play Skyrim.

Zepheric

Tandor wrote: »

You would have come across far better if you had just stopped there. All that followed was more mistaken nonsense that has the effect of negating the apology and confirming to the rest of us that you simply don't have a clue what you're talking about.

I used statistical data (More 22 year olds in the country than anyone)

More people 13-23 play MMORPG's than any other age group.

Therefore an EQ reference is only useful for so many ears.

I said that comparing the way that classes SHOULD operate in this game because of how it performs in OTHER games is incorrect.

I said the version of the paladin that many think should exist probably doesn't exist in this game. (or it is difficult as it was in many other games)

Can you please refute facts instead of just claiming I am ignorant, for which I have claimed to be on at least one fact.

Zepheric

But again you can't really compare the single player games to the RPG, however I would LOVE fully customizable classes like the single player is.

That would alleviate a lot of this class imbalance crap, just let people go crazy.

Chrysolis

I used statistical data (More 22 year olds in the country than anyone)

More people 13-23 play MMORPG's than any other age group.

Therefore an EQ reference is only useful for so many ears.

I said that comparing the way that classes SHOULD operate in this game because of how it performs in OTHER games is incorrect.

I said the version of the paladin that many think should exist probably doesn't exist in this game. (or it is difficult as it was in many other games)

Can you please refute facts instead of just claiming I am ignorant, for which I have claimed to be on at least one fact.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/130552/unmasking_the_avatar_the_.php?print=1

This study indicates that 56% of MMORPG gamers are over the age of 23. 32% are over the age of 29, and 80% of female players are over the age of 23.

Edit: Added quote for brevity.

michaelpatrickjonesnub18_ESO

aleister wrote: »

When I rolled my templar, I envisioned a heavy-armored paladin type character using a 2H weapon.

I tried going back to 2H/heavy, but it just doesn't work against VR mobs. 2H attacks are too slow and even with heavy armor & all my attr points in health, they burn me down too quick in melee.

ESO doesn't have tanks, it has origami.

I had pretty much the same. Heavy armour/maul. Quit at Vet 2.

There is no such thing as a 'tank' in ESO. It's an offensive game. There is very little defense involved. Unless you count running for your life an act of defiance.

ciannait

And the derail is complete...

Zepheric

I don't see that to me it says that 73.1 percent of MMORPG gamers are 12-28

Chrysolis

Zepheric wrote: »

I don't see that to me it says that 73.1 percent of MMORPG gamers are 12-28

44% are between the ages of 12-22. 20% of female MMORPG gamers are between the ages of 12-22.

So which is greater, 44% or 56%? 20% or 80%?

Worstluck

Yeah good job derailing the thread due to the lack of knowledge about role-playing games.

The 'play the way you want' works great for 1-50. It does not work in veteran content and even less so at end game. Two hand (along with most of the weapon skills) is pretty underwhelming and that is a problem.

p.hurst1b16_ESO

For a Paladin you really need to go 1H and shield.

I have a build I am working on but it is a *secret* and it involves very careful balancing of stats and passives. If it works.....

The problem you have is that not many racers can help balance the stats out properly to get strong heals as well as excellent defense and steady dps from stamina skills. Orc and Redguard can get halfway there but more health is needed or.... Imp can go with the huge health boost and hit the 2k naturally at 48 or so and put more to maj and then Mundus the Tower for Stam and a couple of Divines,

Dunmer can go another way with solid boost to Stam and Maj and so can drop more to health and again, Mundus for Stamina.

Just some thoughts. You could go a different way relying on enchants but you need solid stat boost racials to make a true Paladin.

2H is for farmer and grinders and has no place is a proper PvE build. You need to focus on something and 2H is vague and slow. The splash passive makes it a terrible build for PvE and if you do not know why that is then you obviously need more years playing MMO PvE to have a valid opinion.

Zepheric

Please tell me how you are reading that graph, I see none of the numbers you are mentioning. Are we looking at different things?

Chrysolis

23.5 + 18.9 + 13.4 = 55.8%
27.9 + 25 + 27.3 = 80.2%

Zepheric

You are including the 23-28 demographic.

Your point was 29 or older.

The oldest person would have been 13 years old in 1999, there were a few probably but not that many 13 year olds playing EQ back then.

Chrysolis

Zepheric wrote: »

You are including the 23-28 demographic.

Your point was 29 or older.

Again, reading comprehension; for the record, I'm 25 with my "vast array of knowledge" of these "ancient games".

Tarwin

Wow, talk about derailed and crashing into a different City!

Hey OP if you are still around, don't fret! Grab the Skyshard Add On and get a bunch of skills. You are still fixable even without a reset

For myself, my Dungeons and Dragons Pali started off with 2H Heavy Armor and a dash of heals. At about 15 I went Restoration Staff and by 20 realized, not my thing. At 45 I was running out of places to spend points so went Sword and Board and by the time I capped it, realized it would be my main PvP/PvE combat and 2H for farming (or feeling cool in lowbie zones finishing of quests)

Just remember, you don't have to take every skill in each tree, pick what you want and floats your boat

Zepheric

So you played the game during recent history, I doubt you played and understood EQ back in 1999

Chrysolis

You'd be wrong. Again.