Dark Talons: More overpowered than ever before

Chrysolis

Evergreen wrote: »

Chrysolis wrote: »

Immovable was never intended to stop movement impairing effects

In the skill description for Immovable it is described as granting immunity to disabling effects, hence you become immovable at the price of a massive stamina cost. How should this not counter the disabling effect of Talons?

Because movement impairment doesn't qualify as a disable. Disables typically mean stuns, knockdowns or knock backs. Movement impairment is not necessarily disabling - a snared or rooted melee fighter going toe to toe with another melee fighter is completely unaffected by movement impairment.

Immovable means that you cannot be moved. How would that counter a spell that makes you unable to move?

Evergreen

Chrysolis wrote: »

Evergreen wrote: »

Immovable means that you cannot be moved. How would that counter a spell that makes you unable to move?

The answer to your question is Immovable is supposed to give immunity to disabling effects in exchange for its huge stamina cost to cast. Thus the movement disabling effect of Talons should not apply when your character has Immovable cast. I'd still take damage from Talons of course but Immovable should give immunity to the disabling effect of Talons.

patrykplawskib16_ESO

Former DK player here giving you a proper opinion to why talons does so much damage. Burning talons essentially does over 220 damage now you morph it to burning talons than its does a additional 100+ burning damage it just how the skill is learn to use different ways to stop that fire damage in fact there's plenty fire damage in PVP that's why i always go in with an amulet of fire resist that's 1000+ plus it drains your magika like 400+ magika to use it once. now why some people can spam it is because they need to work on a more important situations the game is so fuqing MAGIKA BASED there for DK's doing blood mage build and spamming the *** they need to nerf the magika in this game its insane all the stamina based abilities are almost worthless and unstable flame does exactly whats it does its ment to increase DPS that's how it work plus his gear is enchanting his damage i can tell cause when i use unstable flame it does about 270-320 damage and vampires well they burn unless you were a vamp than that explains plus you probably dont use fire resist either learn to counter them and dont say im lieing juts cause I'm a DK cause i have a NB Vet 10 to.

Evergreen

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

all the stamina based abilities are almost worthless

The stamina based ability Immovable is pretty much worthless in PvP when it does not grant immunity to the disabling effect of Talons like the skill is supposed to. I wouldn't want Talons nerfed at all just fix Immovable to correctly counter the movement disabling effect of Talons.

The problem I have as a Nightblade using the DW skill line is being able to rely on Immovable working as intended by giving me immunity to the disable effects and knockbacks. The stamina cost to cast Immovable is so massive I can't have this skill not working as intended.

Nickdorlandb16_ESO

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

Former DK player here giving you a proper opinion to why talons does so much damage. Burning talons essentially does over 220 damage now you morph it to burning talons than its does a additional 100+ burning damage it just how the skill is learn to use different ways to stop that fire damage in fact there's plenty fire damage in PVP that's why i always go in with an amulet of fire resist that's 1000+ plus it drains your magika like 400+ magika to use it once. now why some people can spam it is because they need to work on a more important situations the game is so fuqing MAGIKA BASED there for DK's doing blood mage build and spamming the *** they need to nerf the magika in this game its insane all the stamina based abilities are almost worthless and unstable flame does exactly whats it does its ment to increase DPS that's how it work plus his gear is enchanting his damage i can tell cause when i use unstable flame it does about 270-320 damage and vampires well they burn unless you were a vamp than that explains plus you probably dont use fire resist either learn to counter them and dont say im lieing juts cause I'm a DK cause i have a NB Vet 10 to.

Every skill from templar costs 350/400.. so thats not a lot..
Besides that there are DK that spam it.. you cant do almost anything agianst it.. On however point you wanna defend talons.. you cant, its OP.. Simple

davidhorstub17_ESO

its only overpowered because players cant turn it in, npcs can turn in it why cant players? until that needed fix gets patched in ill keep abusing it by talon spamming and standing at peoples backs smashing their heads in while they cant hit me.

UrQuan

Evergreen wrote: »

patrykplawskib16_ESO wrote: »

all the stamina based abilities are almost worthless

The stamina based ability Immovable is pretty much worthless in PvP when it does not grant immunity to the disabling effect of Talons like the skill is supposed to. I wouldn't want Talons nerfed at all just fix Immovable to correctly counter the movement disabling effect of Talons.

The problem here is that you're confusing an immobilizing effect with a disabling effect. Talons is the former, not the latter. Disabling effects are ones that prevent you from casting spells and attacking. Immobilizing effects are ones that root you in place. Sometimes they go hand in hand, sometimes they don't. Immovable grants immunity to disabling effects, and not to immobilizing effects. It's working the way it's supposed to.

Evergreen

Ur-Quan wrote: »

Sometimes they go hand in hand, sometimes they don't. Immovable grants immunity to disabling effects, and not to immobilizing effects.

Immovable not countering immobilizing effects just doesn't make sense. Being immobilized is a disabling effect in melee. This definitely is a case they go hand in hand.

UrQuan

Evergreen wrote: »

Ur-Quan wrote: »

Sometimes they go hand in hand, sometimes they don't. Immovable grants immunity to disabling effects, and not to immobilizing effects.

Immovable not countering immobilizing effects just doesn't make sense. Being immobilized is a disabling effect in melee. This definitely is a case they go hand in hand.

No. You still don't get it. The game definition of a disabling effect is an effect that prevents you from casting a spell or attacking. The game definition of an immobilizing effect is something that prevents you from moving around. When I say sometimes they go hand in hand that means that sometimes the same spell/ability will cause both. That does not mean that sometimes being immobilized is the same thing as being disabled. Something that protects you from a disabling effect does not work against an immobilizing effect (unless it says otherwise) and vice versa. Whether you define an immobilizing effect as a disabling effect makes exactly zero difference. What matters is that ESO does not.

Evergreen

Ur-Quan wrote: »

Evergreen wrote: »

Ur-Quan wrote: »

Sometimes they go hand in hand, sometimes they don't. Immovable grants immunity to disabling effects, and not to immobilizing effects.

Immovable not countering immobilizing effects just doesn't make sense. Being immobilized is a disabling effect in melee. This definitely is a case they go hand in hand.

No. You still don't get it. The game definition of a disabling effect is an effect that prevents you from casting a spell or attacking. The game definition of an immobilizing effect is something that prevents you from moving around. When I say sometimes they go hand in hand that means that sometimes the same spell/ability will cause both. That does not mean that sometimes being immobilized is the same thing as being disabled. Something that protects you from a disabling effect does not work against an immobilizing effect (unless it says otherwise) and vice versa. Whether you define an immobilizing effect as a disabling effect makes exactly zero difference. What matters is that ESO does not.

Semantics aside, a horrible game design to exclude Talons immobilizing effect from being countered by Immovable. I'll make sure to save all my stamina for dodge rolls and take immovable off my skill bar for PvP.

monkeymystic

320 damage while the other abilities does over twice the damage? hahaha!

Have you seen the Crystal shards hitting for over 1000 damage mate?

This post only confirms that talons is gimped compared to before. You have 3000+ health at VR 12, 300 damage is nothing.

Oblongship

Evergreen wrote: »

Something really needs to be done how overpowered Dark Talons is in PvP after the damage buff in the last patch. Since Dragon Knights cry the loudest about any nerfing at least make the skill Immovable counter all CC including Dark Talons.

Here is what PvP against Dragon Knights has looked like for me post patch.

[img][/img]

By every before you mean the less than 2 months the game has been out?

monkeymystic

NordJitsu wrote: »

No.

The big problem with Talons was the lack of counter play.

Adding an immunity during dodge roll and a decreased radius has perfectly fixed the problem.

As the OP of the 50 page thread that raised the issue, I now consider it well balanced.

Also, @ZOS_NickKonkle‌ , I'd like to point this out as an example of how balance should be done, so bravo. Not huge changes. Not changes to the very nature of the skill. Just incremental changes and changes to the supporting mechanics, rather than the skill itself (eg. dodge roll immunity.)

Agreed.

The worst thing a developers can do is to overnerf things, and just creating a new problem.

The talons nerf was done in a smart way. It's no longer nearly as good in PvP, but atleast it has some use still.

Makes me have faith in the developers!

Harenheim

I don't know how to quote but..

"Evergreen wrote: Immovable is my main CC defense. Its really horrible to waste the huge stamina cost on Immovable to find out it has no effect on Talons making it so you cannot move.

Like you said the only solution is save stamina for dodge rolls or switch to ranged specs."

You realise that both cost stamina, one is used to counter certain abilities and the other counters others.. So surely you would use Immovable for the effects it counters and dodge for the abilities such as Talons? How have you not figured that one out yet? Your complaint basically stems from you not understanding how to counter different abilities. Now if you have a problem with Stamina management then that's a different issue.

Cogo

The dark talons are getting fixed. DEVS said so. Why is this thread even here?

Falmer

Afraid a screenshot of damage taken doesn't tell anyone much. What was the players level? What is your level? Whats their spell damage? What is your spell resistance? Are you a vampire that takes massive fire damage(talons is a fire based spell)?

I mean you do realize that most of the damage on that screenshot is NOT coming from talons.

NordJitsu

Tbh Immovable isn't that great anyway. You can easily get that same Armor and Spell resist from other sources. Lightning Form as a Sorc, Rune Focus as a Templar, Stealth as a NB, anything as a DK (like, just stand there.)

I used to use Immovable in the Beta. I switched to Resto Staff and Combat prayer. Now I get the same armor and spell resistance, plus a damage buff, plus a self heal.

You get the CC immunity from just doing a CC break the first time you get hit. Its almost the same cost and the same duration.

You can also just block the CC in a lot of situations.

Ditching Immovable will give you more Stam for dodge roll.

It sounds like the big problem is you're expecting to counter a skill using a skill that's not meant to counter it.

Dracane

Nerf Templars self heal, DKs Dragon Blood, Talons and their damage, and the game should be fine.

wolfe26ub17_ESO

I mean really this is become rediculous and is pretty much two pages of evergreen repeating your arguement is invalid and this is the way it should be over and over again.

Imoveable - by definition mean you can't be moved. Talon's snare is not moving you, if anything it doubly reinforcing your imovability. I think the Dev's should make it so you can't move while you are using that skill as the name IMPLIES.

Korah_Eaglecry

Evergreen wrote: »

Chrysolis wrote: »

Immovable was never intended to stop movement impairing effects

In the skill description for Immovable it is described as granting immunity to disabling effects, hence you become immovable at the price of a massive stamina cost. How should this not counter the disabling effect of Talons?

So theres 1....just 1 ability that youve come across that is not effected by Immovable and you want it to change?

So in other words you want an 'I win button' that can break anything that your opponent throws at you.

There are other means of defeating Talons. Rather then use them. You want to create a MUST have ability that will completely defeat any build that utilizes a CC.

Korah_Eaglecry

Dracane wrote: »

Nerf Templars self heal, DKs Dragon Blood, Talons and their damage, and the game should be fine.

DK Talons have already been nerfed. They dont need to be nerfed again.

Orizuru

I seem to be standing in Dark Talons. Hmmm, should I dodge roll? No, I'm using Immovable. Crud, I can't move! To the forums!

ErykGrimm

This thread is just downright disappointing to read. Skill gets balanced and it needs nerfing again? Do you ask your keyboard manufacturer to make the keyboard softer cause it hurts when you bang your head against it? No. You stop banging your head against your keyboard and the pain stops. If your still getting owned by talons...your doing it wrong. All of it. If your going to be in the front lines, have a counter to CC. Every class in the game can dodge roll, in case you didn't know. And why is everyone on the nerd bandwagon? How bout focusing on getting all the classes working as intended before nitpicking skills that have already been needed? Or how bout getting ALL of cyrodil working right? Goodness.

Liquid_Time

I feel the Burning Talons are where they need to be. Just my opinion of course. Also.. save some stamina, roll out, get some distance, and attack again. Seems easy enough.. for most people that have a basic understanding of how useful roll dodge truly is.

frwinters_ESO

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

So youre not bothered by the other two abilities that hit you for twice as much as Talons.....Interesting.

cause he is probably a vampire and doesnt want more nerfs.

NerfEverything

The talons nerf was done well. Not too much, still some room to tweak.

Biting Jabs nerf on the other hand...it was like killing a fly with a sledgehammer. That skill went from being on 99% of people's bar to being on 0% of peoples bar. I don't know how disabling your character for 1.5 seconds seems like a good way to balance something.

Obscure

Personally I didn't like the radius Nerf, but I can concede due to the results I've seen with it in action. The counter play to immobilize is almost adequate, we are only missing a viable (Rapid Maneuver is too expensive and restrictive to be viable) hard counter to it (I.E. what Immovable is to CC, _______ is to immobilize). The damage was never great and still isn't anything to brag about. Dodge rolls generating temp immunity is the right direction, but it's side effect is now I have better sustain due to the new optimal immobilize spam timing. I'm not using Talons mind you, but immobilize is still immobilize if by any other name... I call mine Bombard.

Suffice it to say I'm on the fence now if a hard counter is even needed. If the meta game shifts and immobilize goes viral then maybe it'll be warranted. For now I suppose what they've done with Talons and immobilize in general has allowed for a better environment, though could it be better? Not sure. The time will come when we have a better idea, but that time isn't now.

Evergreen

NordJitsu wrote: »

You get the CC immunity from just doing a CC break the first time you get hit. Its almost the same cost and the same duration.

You can also just block the CC in a lot of situations.

Ditching Immovable will give you more Stam for dodge roll.

It sounds like the big problem is you're expecting to counter a skill using a skill that's not meant to counter it.

Trying to make a medium armor stamina based Dual Wield NB work while having to make sure I blow all my stamina on dodge rolling out of Talons because a CC immunity skill like Immovable will not counter Talons immobilizing effect is just too overpowering for me.

I dropped dual wield and went all light armor restostaff Bloodmage/healer hybrid. I don't excel at healing or damage but do both well enough and am raking in a ton of alliance points. Sitting on 41k alliance points in the first day of trying this new spec and can't spend them fast enough.

navystylz_ESO

Good.. You've learned this game is Elder Caster Online. No room for silly melee stamina builds.

Nickdorlandb16_ESO

monkeymystic wrote: »

320 damage while the other abilities does over twice the damage? hahaha!

Have you seen the Crystal shards hitting for over 1000 damage mate?

This post only confirms that talons is gimped compared to before. You have 3000+ health at VR 12, 300 damage is nothing.

You are really clueless arent you ? Its not rly about the dmg ( Altough why should it even do dmg ? Its a CC ) Its about the freaking CC and dmg you get afterwards thx to not being able to move