You need to buff weaponskills. They are terrible.

Jaxom

Stx wrote: »

A third pool is a bad idea, it will just give casters more power...

Stamina dps sharing their resource with dodge/block is fine, if its not competitive dps wise, then simply buff the regen of stamina. .

I dont even think that is necessary. Just buff the Athletic's passive in the medium armor tree. Right now it reduces Dodge cost by 2% per piece. Change it so that CC breaks are included, and buff that number up to 5% and now your cost for cc-break and dodge are much less (35% in 7/7), without having to add a new bar for it.

This gives Stamina based builds more incentive to wear Medium armor and should help the problem of resource sharing.

Stx

Jaxom wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

A third pool is a bad idea, it will just give casters more power...

Stamina dps sharing their resource with dodge/block is fine, if its not competitive dps wise, then simply buff the regen of stamina. .

I dont even think that is necessary. Just buff the Athletic's passive in the medium armor tree. Right now it reduces Dodge cost by 2% per piece. Change it so that CC breaks are included, and buff that number up to 5% and now your cost for cc-break and dodge are much less (35% in 7/7), without having to add a new bar for it.

This gives Stamina based builds more incentive to wear Medium armor and should help the problem of resource sharing.

I like this idea

Kego

Athletics reduces Dodge by 4% with Level 50 in Medium Armor, not 2%.

Anastasia

CaptainSilverbrow wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I think if you made stamina abilities cost a 1/3 less to account for the double draw in stamina then it would fix it for PvP in regards to block casting. However the result in PvE is now that Magicka users consume 3x that of stamina users per attack.

Sure, but nothing would change for magicka-centric playstyles insomuch as concerns their resource management and related mechanics. The two contrasts betwixt magicka users and stamina users are variety and sourcing, only the latter of which is really being discussed in the scope of this thread. Magicka is consumed exclusively for spells, no matter the purpose, whereas we all use stamina for at least defensive maneuvering. For us concurrently, a roll dodge consumes something like a fourth or third of the bar, and our attacks are not much more economical. Stamina regeneration is severely limited in both mode (being forced to use medium armor and occupy valuable jewelry enchants) and mechanics, whereas magicka is not at all, despite serving only to fuel spells, and whereas magicka is presently concerned, that's fine. Stamina isn't, though. If maneuvers for us more puissantly armored folks were reduced to around 8% or 10% a maneuver, and our attacks were a third or half their current costs, we'd not only require less stamina regen., leaving room for more creative itemization, we would be wholly viable in PvP and PvE environs.

And then we get to address the skills and individual weapon-type philosophies informing each skill tree's design. I'm thinking up some stuff for DW and 2H now, with DW focusing more on speed and burst, and 2H being made, obviously, more to focus on power and its own vulnerability.

---

Excellent CaptainSilverbrow.

*****Just this, period: "Sure, but nothing would change for magicka-centric playstyles insomuch as concerns their resource management and related mechanics. The two contrasts betwixt magicka users and stamina users are variety and sourcing, only the latter of which is really being discussed in the scope of this thread."****

Jaxom

Kego wrote: »

Athletics reduces Dodge by 4% with Level 50 in Medium Armor, not 2%.

Ahh yes. My mistake. Forgot about the 2 points into the passive. Still, if they were to add cc break to it, I'd take the 28% reduction. I feel it would be a step in the right direction. It wouldnt fix it completely, but certainly help.

ArRashid

I think you guys have somewhat switched views of magicka vs stamina.

in current state, magicka is the sustained damage source (still with reliable burst), while stamina is just burst. Why?
- you start combat (usually) at 100% stamina
- few abilities get you under 50% stamina
- you can't afford to use them under 25% because you couldn't CC break/roll dodge, which means you have to wait for regen (or potion cooldown, but pots give just about what, 20-25%?), while you can only use your light&heavy attacks

Magicka, on the other hand, not only uses potions and regen, but you can ALSO have Spell Symmetry (using it makes next spell cheaper and even deal increased damage and generates fair amount of magicka for a bit of HP your healer passively heals up), but also by Warlock set.
I've seen mages do entire bosses in craglorn without ever dropping bellow 80% magicka at any given time. With stamina, after 20 seconds you're just using weapon attacks while waiting for your regens..

Sure, my archer can achieve 900+ AoE dps on just level 38, but 10 seconds into fight my stamina is all gone and I literally have nothing to dps with or defend myself. That's mainly because Bombard costs 2x more stamina than any other AoE (as a FULL stamina, I can shoot about 4 Bombards till I run out of stamina... pathetic), just because it has an immobilize (though the morph without immobilize isn't any cheaper)


At this point I've given up trying to suggest some balancing fixes for weapons to be competetive with staves (because I got repeatedly shot down by PvP fanboys reacting to every possible change like a cornered badger), but I'm still HOPING at least for:
- Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild skills being all stamina (and worth taking)
- some nice weapon ultimates

It's no fun to try making a weapon master of any sort, when only about 2/3 of weapon skills are worth taking and you HAVE TO use class skills anyway. Where are Archers? Where are Rogues? Where are Blademasters? Where are Berserkers? All we can get are some Spellslingers, Shadow Assassins, Paladins and god knows what else.
What if I want my character to have magical prowess of a particularly slow horse? 90% Tamriel's population can't even use magic, yet all players are literally forced to use it, just to... ehm.. not suck completely. Heck, they even forced FIGHTER'S GUILD members to almost all use magic.. Aelif, Merric, Colors..

Cathexis

Make stamina skill costs based on percent remaining with minimum costs rather than a flat cost. This would increase stamina flexibility significantly by improving survivability at low stamina, and no need for a second bar (although I am a fan of the power bar idea).

ArcVelarian

Here's a quick and easy band-aid fix, at least until they actually buff stamina builds. Buff the click attack damage done by weapons that use stamina by say, 50%.

Khivas_Carrick

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Here's a quick and easy band-aid fix, at least until they actually buff stamina builds. Buff the click attack damage done by weapons that use stamina by say, 50%.

Light attack you mean? Gods no that's too high, but I'll take 25% as fair and balanced (50% would make light attacks do more damage than some skills and heavy attacks make many skills nearly obsolete)

Thejollygreenone

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Here's a quick and easy band-aid fix, at least until they actually buff stamina builds. Buff the click attack damage done by weapons that use stamina by say, 50%.

Light attack you mean? Gods no that's too high, but I'll take 25% as fair and balanced (50% would make light attacks do more damage than some skills and heavy attacks make many skills nearly obsolete)

You seem to not be considering something. The increased light/heavy attack damage would be to allow us to sustain dps while we have run out of stamina which is inevitable due to arguably flawed inherent game design, while magicka builds keep casting away.

So, while we'll have high burst when our stamina is up, when it runs out we'll be spacing it out with periods of only light heavy attacks.

If these light/heavy attacks are doing the same damage as casters abilities, then casters would be doing more damage in those periods that stamina would be losing dps since they are constantly adding light attacks and spells together.

That's my basic theory anyway. Maybe 50% is too much, the value could be tinkered with. I like the idea if its a long-run thing, ZoS has already stated they have other plans for the game.

They're adding in a spell with spellcrafting that will act as a stamina builds equilibrium, trading magicka for stamina, so working around a stamina builds lack of the same regen as magicka builds is apparently not what they had in mind, as much as I like the idea.

Khivas_Carrick

Nah, I considered that, it's just a bit broken when we don't spend any of our resource to do as much damage as a skill that consumes said resource. It's a bit more in depth in my mind but I need sleep, so I'll touch this later, don't let me forget.

Thejollygreenone

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Nah, I considered that, it's just a bit broken when we don't spend any of our resource to do as much damage as a skill that consumes said resource. It's a bit more in depth in my mind but I need sleep, so I'll touch this later, don't let me forget.

My point is that when a stamina build in this theory doesn't spend any resource they do less damage than a magicka build user who is consuming resources due to animation cancelling/spell weaving.

Your argument is based around the idea that when consuming no resources they do the same resources, my argument is that they wouldn't do more damage in that scenario mainly for the reason explained above, especially with a more thought out %increase than a flat 50.

A stamina build would have to spend a more precious resource to do the superior damage you claim, and even then they will be able to do it only for a limited duration unlike the magicka counterpart.

That's all I'm saying, it's a hook, a way in to balance things, and I think it'd be a cool dynamic to work with. But again, I don't see it occurring in the grand scheme of things with the announcements the dev team has already made, so this is pretty much a moot discussion.

KenjiJU

Players with heavier stamina should see reduced % cost for dodge/block/etc, based on stamina alone, not tied to armor passives.

Also normal melee attacks should see upped damage overall. Stay in mind these are not only melee range weapons, but skillsets with limited 'nukes'. What could have been frontload damage skills are non-stacking DoTs. Not asking for a change there, but it's part of why there's yet room for buffs.

Khivas_Carrick

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Nah, I considered that, it's just a bit broken when we don't spend any of our resource to do as much damage as a skill that consumes said resource. It's a bit more in depth in my mind but I need sleep, so I'll touch this later, don't let me forget.

My point is that when a stamina build in this theory doesn't spend any resource they do less damage than a magicka build user who is consuming resources due to animation cancelling/spell weaving.

Your argument is based around the idea that when consuming no resources they do the same resources, my argument is that they wouldn't do more damage in that scenario mainly for the reason explained above, especially with a more thought out %increase than a flat 50.

A stamina build would have to spend a more precious resource to do the superior damage you claim, and even then they will be able to do it only for a limited duration unlike the magicka counterpart.

That's all I'm saying, it's a hook, a way in to balance things, and I think it'd be a cool dynamic to work with. But again, I don't see it occurring in the grand scheme of things with the announcements the dev team has already made, so this is pretty much a moot discussion.

Sadly you're right, or at least very close to being very likely to being right. I could see two things happening to make us even with the Staff and Class Skills:

1) Increase Melee/Physical Weapon damage, like on the weapons themselves by a large margin. 50% is a bit much for light and heavy attacks, but 25% seems plenty fair and even sensible.

2) Make giving points towards stamina reduce the cost of dodging and blocking by a percentage with each point, like 1 or 2, or something like that.

3) Buff the weapon skills in general, the most important being making Bows less burtsy and one shot one trick in pvp to a more balance consistent stream of power, and making 2H better through a myriad of ways that are needed, such as making every hit proc the weapons elemental enchant, or dealing full damage when an enemy blocks an attack, to making Uppercut instant cast.

4) Make Medium and heavy armor both more melee friendly, but one more than the other. I love the idea of a guy in heavy armor mixed with light wielding a 2H (can you guess this is what I do now that I'm vr10?) but not so much for doing only damage. That'd be unfair if I could tank and do great damage at the same time. I will say that when wearing heavy armor, weapon damage should be increased by an amount that means something and not a percentage because despite wearing 4 pieces of heavy (5 as soon as I get the mats) I see nothing increasing my melee skills or weapon damage despite the Juggernaut perk being maxed.

For Medium armor increase everything about it currently but make it also do increased weapon damage (more than heavy, obviously) and/or make it so that your melee attacks ignore enemy armor. Light Armor gives spell pen, so it's only fair that Medium Armor get's armor pen, which I think would help a hell of a lot for melee weapon users.

Just a passing bit of thought is all this is though, I doubt we'll be heeded anytime soon.

jelliedsoup

It appears that zos believe the imbalance is fixed.

At release eso came with such huge and glaring disparity it's unsurprising that they think its fixed.

They really rooted those who like weapons.

Khivas_Carrick

You know, that's probably very true