Yes, Nightblade is primarily rogue. Stop saying otherwise.

mutharex

My NB is a full plated 2H Death Knight. I just use the syphoning tree. So?

Kaladin4

Turkwise wrote: »

You're basing your entire argument off labels and default previews, instead of actual game mechanics.

Not a recipe for a winning argument.

Well the OP does have a point. in all honesty whats the first thing that comes to your mind when u hear the name Nightblade? anything with night in it sounds dark and or stealthy and blade well I think of a guy using a sword or dagger of some sort. So just by the name.. to me that's what it sounds like a rogueish character.

then you look at two of the classes 3 skill lines being shadow and assassination. both to me sound like a stealthy rogueish sort. but you say wait look at the game mechanics of them..

well whats under that assassination tree.. hmm

assassin's blade - well to me that sure sounds like a rogue assassin ability who should be using some sort of blade to assassinate someone even if it takes magic to use it. it deals damage and when they are low it does extra damage to help assassinate them..

teleport strike - target moves through the shadows to strike a target.. again sounds like a lot of other rogueish abilities I have played or heard of in other games/books.

heck look at some of the passives

Master assassin - to me sounds alot like other rogue/assassin build kinda skill to me. whats it do. increases wep damage from stealth. sure seems to me like that's one of the primary skills all rogue/assassin type of characters have.

Executioner- the name alone seems like an assassin type- the ability however restoring magic over 6 seconds seems out of place you would think they could come up with a better name to restore magic then executioner so id say just bad naming on that one.

pressure points - says it increases critical strike rating for each assassination ability sloted. well again sounds like something most rogue/assassin characters would have

then hemorrhage- well ive played other games that had rogues that used that name for a skill of theirs. whats this one do? increases critical damage. something most assassin/rogue characters always use in the typical stealth high crit quick damage dual wielding rogue type most of us have read about in books, or played in games.

whats the ultimate
deathstroke - the picture showing a dagger in hand. again sounds an looks to me like a skill a stealthy rogue kind of character would use.

so that tree alone you would think of rogues in general for those skills at least. so would think that kind of play would be dominate in that skill line.

this is getting alot longer then I thought so well shadow lets keep it quick

who doesn't use shadow cloak at some point? an ability that turns ya invis? basically a typical kind of skill most assassin/rogue types have.
second skill veiled strike its name alone sounds like something an assassin/rogue stealthy character would use and as you read it it deals damage an gets benefits for being stealthed when used.

siphon tree reminds me of a typical warlock kind of character skill tree. but that's just one of the 3.

so mechanics wise I would say yes they have alot of skills and names of skills that typical assassin/rogue types have used in other games. so should have a viable rogue/assassin build.

not saying you cant use them for anything different but those skill names and abilities are typical rogue/assassin things that you read about/play in games that some rogue or assassin usually using daggers or swords(but not always) uses.

Ser Lobo

Kaladin4 wrote: »

Word

If anything, I'd think Nightblade should be about killing things. Which we don't do particularly well at the moment (at least, not better and sometimes far worse than others). But you make valid points.

It's like 'DragonKnight'. I think fire abilities and heavy armor.
'Templar'. Heavy armor and paladins.
'Sorcerer'. Spells, particularly those not accepted by traditional mages. And light armor.

Aeradon

mutharex wrote: »

My NB is a full plated 2H Death Knight. I just use the syphoning tree. So?

Agreed.

We have 3 skill trees for a reason. Not to *** OP off but my DragonKnight prefers to be called Fire Mage and assumes DPS role.

Siphoning and Shadow alone allows NB to tank. Self heal, Life steal, AOE heal, invisibility, armour and spell resist soft capped, potion effectiveness increased, increase healing and max health, these are more than enough to stay alive. If I pop in Blur? The damage mitigation could be way higher than your results of five SAT sittings combined. Mind you these are not skills from other lines, the only one I need is maybe a taunt. I can tank with pure NB skills if I want.

Mage is self explanatory, every class can be a mage. Max out magicka and your class skill will hit like a truck.

Healer? Please, crazy debuff support skills plus siphoning strikes? Every siphoning strike damage charges a crazy AOE heal ultimate and provides unlimited resources? I can heal your sorry donkey ... so much that those extra blood is gonna make you grow a uterus and start having menses.

Every class can do what they want and fulfil any role. Developer's decision. Period.

*edit*
My point is, there is no PRIMARY role. People don't wanna be called Rogue, so be it, I'm sure if you father named you Banana Princess 90210 you would change your name before you even turn 5. I'm assuming you're a female, and understand that not all females are happy being called Princess.

bg22

@ruze84b14_ESO‌ Rogue is also defined as a mischievous person. That would entail murder, mayhem and assassination.

And ONCE AGAIN, can you kindly show me where I said tanking and or healing is the wrong way to play this class?

Please, show me one line that I posted something to the effect of "if you're playin this way, you're wrong".

Also, get back to me after they implement pick-pocketing and lemme know if you ever give into temptation.

bg22

@kaladin4 Yes...

That is exactly what I'm saying. Thank you for being competent. +1

Ysne58

Oblivion actually has a rogue class. The nightblade in Oblivion is a cross between a mage and a thief.

Reykice

You are wrong... any class can be anything, that is the whole point of this system.
You can also be a rogue but so can other classes...

Stop asking them for stupid things, the NB is already TOP dps and the only remaining class able to solo VR dungeons. Be happy they don`t fix and then nerf you.

If you are unable to play it well its not the class, its you... others are playing it very well soloing world bosses and public dungeons.

If you want it to play "like this!!111" then its again you, use the appropriate abilities and you can solo as well as any class. You see that mage soloing packs with AOE? He is using a Destruction staff skill... everyone can get it. You see that DK tanking well and outlasting NPC`s? So can you with the right build.

TLDR: The class is working well, its just the people who expect it to be like they want that can`t get it to work as they keep refusing to use the abilities that would help them. Look at youtube or twitch to see how people play the class and learn. NB`s can top the damage meters even with their passives broken... what more do you want?

Ser Lobo

bg22 wrote: »

@ruze84b14_ESO‌ Rogue is also defined as a mischievous person. That would entail murder, mayhem and assassination.

And ONCE AGAIN, can you kindly show me where I said tanking and or healing is the wrong way to play this class?

Please, show me one line that I posted something to the effect of "if you're playin this way, you're wrong".

Also, get back to me after they implement pick-pocketing and lemme know if you ever give into temptation.

I think you missed it, later on in that very reply (about the next sentence, to be exact), where I went on to discuss how allowing traditional mindsets and naming to 'define' the class causes people to forgo non-traditional aspects.

Call it a rogue, sure. I don't, and won't. I don't think of Nightblades as the 'rogues' of ESO. In fact, I try to just call them Nightblades.

They can heal. They can tank. They can control.

Your hangup on your original post seems to be players, like myself, who are doing their best to step away from typecasting Nightblades as rogues. I'd prefer to not see it called rogues. I don't want developers balancing our class with 'rogues' in mind. I DO want to see our class do more outright damage, but in that same breath, I also want better heals and a significant improvement in our tanking capabilities.

I worry that if ESO keeps being told that Nightblades are nothing but rogues, we'll eventually be limited to nothing but alpha-strike damage and avoidance.



So while you and I both agree that a Nightblade can be all those things, I don't agree with Nightblade's primary purpose being that of a rogue. I believe and support the Nightblade's primary purpose being that of stealth, with everything else in how you build it.

To you, it seems, stealth and 'rogue' go hand in hand. As an old DnD buff, I know that the two are very different things.

Aeradon

bg22 wrote: »

I'm not talking about what is broken or not, I'm just sick of ppl saying "stop thinking NB is supposed to be a rogue class".

People have the freedom to think what they want, and also to do what they want, then to portray themselves as what they want. This person obviously isn't playing as a rogue, and doesn't want to be named rogue. And you disagree with him not wanting to be named rogue, reason being you think he is not what he is trying to say he is. And that reason can also be translated as you think he is lying about not playing as a rogue. In that case, you believe that his course of action doesn't change the fact that he is a rogue. Regardless he is healing more than anyone else on the team.

Also, Nightblade is a class. ESO calls it Nightblade class. Nightblade class cannot be a rogue class if it's already a class.

bg22 wrote: »

-It is called "Nightblade".
-We have a "shadow" skill tree.
-We have an "assassination" skill tree.
-We are displayed in character creation as a medium armored, dual wielding type.

- Yes, I can read English, it's called Nightblade not a rogue. Ok? Next.
- Yes, shadow may assist us in becoming shadow master or shadow mage. Your point being?
- Yes, assassination means we can be assassins. Any valid points?
- Now this is just stereotypical. Medium armour and dual wield means rogue? Wow, your vocabulary and gaming experience must've been really vast.

bg22 wrote: »

So stop. Just stop.

It is in fact primarily a rogue class. Yes, you CAN be a healer. Yes you CAN be a tank. But Those are not the PRIMARY roles of this class.

Do you really expect polite response with this post?
It is in fact primarily a night blade class. There are no such thing as a PRIMARY role in this game. The only PRIMARY role is what the player gives his character.

Don't call Nightblade class a rogue. It's as rude as calling the Queen of England, Jabba the Hut. Or calling a King, Sultan. It's disrespectful.

Reykice

Wow 4 posts in a row made by you... you know you can`t do that to bump your thread like that?

I`m tired of people saying NB`s are crap or should only be used one way... if they wanted that they would have made classes that can only fill one role.

NB`s are fine as a DW rogue, you will find plenty of guides and videos where people solo anything from world bosses to public dungeons in the VR areas.

If you really want to play the melee glass cannon you can but its not the class that gets you killed, its the game design. Any class dies when in a glass cannon spec... they will never make you survive where every other class dies.

So get a decent Dual Wield build and go play... it can be done its proven there are videos and guides about it... if you are having problems look them up don`t come here asking for a buff just because you can`t handle the class.

Enjoy!

Ser Lobo

I guess it's a moot point then. I'm not arguing that the assumption can be made. I'm arguing that it's not a good assumption to support. Because by calling it a rogue, and telling other's it's a rogue, you (probably unintentionally) are discounting the things it can do that aren't roguish by nature.

Yes, Op, you go out of your way to say that Nightblades can do other things. But do you do that in every post, every conversation? Or do you simply refer to the class as the 'rogues' and assume that everyone who reads what you wrote, who listens to what you say, is also hearing your thoughts?

Better to call it a nightblade, and play it as a rogue if you want.

Korah_Eaglecry

What does it matter if it was intended to be the default DPS class? Its not working as intended and hence a worthless class to choose at the moment.

Chirru

Kypho wrote: »

Just like other classes can be healer, tank (no more bashspamming tanks QQ LoL), but agree. rouge class till first move is done. after you did the first attack from stealth, you are no more than a lolblade compared to other classes 1 on 1.

True...and that needs to be changed. In my opinion the second move ought to be 'GONE' And just in case this is too vague. Jump in, kill target and disappear from combat. Naturally everyone will call 'Overpowered' and so this will not happen.
So please give the NB some survival power. The present siphoning tree is not sufficient. That is why people go resto-staff or Vampire. Right now (in my opinion) the only way to play a NB successfully in VR content is as a Vampire. I would wish that to change.

nerevarine1138

bg22 wrote: »

I'm not talking about what is broken or not, I'm just sick of ppl saying "stop thinking NB is supposed to be a rogue class".

-It is called "Nightblade".
-We have a "shadow" skill tree.
-We have an "assassination" skill tree.
-We are displayed in character creation as a medium armored, dual wielding type.

So stop. Just stop.

It is in fact primarily a rogue class. Yes, you CAN be a healer. Yes you CAN be a tank. But Those are not the PRIMARY roles of this class.

Your inability to understand how class mechanics work in this game is not a failing on the part of the developers.

It's not just that I can be a healer. It's that I have specific class abilities tailored towards healing. It's not just that I have the ability to be a tank. I have specific class abilities that are only useful for damage mitigation.

If you cannot comprehend a game where classes don't simply pigeonhole you into a particular role, that's your problem. No one else is responsible for that.

P.S. I play my stealth-melee-DPS Nightblade just fine, and I play my alt Nightblade healer/caster DPS just fine. They are equally fun to play.

bg22

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

I'm not talking about what is broken or not, I'm just sick of ppl saying "stop thinking NB is supposed to be a rogue class".

-It is called "Nightblade".
-We have a "shadow" skill tree.
-We have an "assassination" skill tree.
-We are displayed in character creation as a medium armored, dual wielding type.

So stop. Just stop.

It is in fact primarily a rogue class. Yes, you CAN be a healer. Yes you CAN be a tank. But Those are not the PRIMARY roles of this class.

Your inability to understand how class mechanics work in this game is not a failing on the part of the developers.

It's not just that I can be a healer. It's that I have specific class abilities tailored towards healing. It's not just that I have the ability to be a tank. I have specific class abilities that are only useful for damage mitigation.

If you cannot comprehend a game where classes don't simply pigeonhole you into a particular role, that's your problem. No one else is responsible for that.

P.S. I play my stealth-melee-DPS Nightblade just fine, and I play my alt Nightblade healer/caster DPS just fine. They are equally fun to play.

So, there are more healing and tank abilities in our class than steath/dps abilities?

nerevarine1138

bg22 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

I'm not talking about what is broken or not, I'm just sick of ppl saying "stop thinking NB is supposed to be a rogue class".

-It is called "Nightblade".
-We have a "shadow" skill tree.
-We have an "assassination" skill tree.
-We are displayed in character creation as a medium armored, dual wielding type.

So stop. Just stop.

It is in fact primarily a rogue class. Yes, you CAN be a healer. Yes you CAN be a tank. But Those are not the PRIMARY roles of this class.

Your inability to understand how class mechanics work in this game is not a failing on the part of the developers.

It's not just that I can be a healer. It's that I have specific class abilities tailored towards healing. It's not just that I have the ability to be a tank. I have specific class abilities that are only useful for damage mitigation.

If you cannot comprehend a game where classes don't simply pigeonhole you into a particular role, that's your problem. No one else is responsible for that.

P.S. I play my stealth-melee-DPS Nightblade just fine, and I play my alt Nightblade healer/caster DPS just fine. They are equally fun to play.

So, there are more healing and tank abilities in our class than steath/dps abilities?

They're pretty evenly distributed, just like every other class. Some classes have whole trees devoted to traditional healing, but they can't get the same Siphoning attacks that we do. Some classes have skills devoted to damage mitigation: we have enemy damage reduction and dodge-increasing abilities. But to answer your main question: every class has more damage dealing abilities than tank/healing.


[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

ElSlayer

Nightblade has exactly 3 skills that rely on stealth.

Vlaxitov

Nightblade specific skill trees to me look like:

1. Combat rogue
2. Assassin rogue
3. Warlock

If I had to describe them to someone else familiar with mmos that would be it.

bg22

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

I'm not talking about what is broken or not, I'm just sick of ppl saying "stop thinking NB is supposed to be a rogue class".

-It is called "Nightblade".
-We have a "shadow" skill tree.
-We have an "assassination" skill tree.
-We are displayed in character creation as a medium armored, dual wielding type.

So stop. Just stop.

It is in fact primarily a rogue class. Yes, you CAN be a healer. Yes you CAN be a tank. But Those are not the PRIMARY roles of this class.

Your inability to understand how class mechanics work in this game is not a failing on the part of the developers.

It's not just that I can be a healer. It's that I have specific class abilities tailored towards healing. It's not just that I have the ability to be a tank. I have specific class abilities that are only useful for damage mitigation.

If you cannot comprehend a game where classes don't simply pigeonhole you into a particular role, that's your problem. No one else is responsible for that.

P.S. I play my stealth-melee-DPS Nightblade just fine, and I play my alt Nightblade healer/caster DPS just fine. They are equally fun to play.

So, there are more healing and tank abilities in our class than steath/dps abilities?

They're pretty evenly distributed, just like every other class. Some classes have whole trees devoted to traditional healing, but they can't get the same Siphoning attacks that we do. Some classes have skills devoted to damage mitigation: we have enemy damage reduction and dodge-increasing abilities. But to answer your main question: every class has more damage dealing abilities than tank/healing.

Again, the fact that you're too narrow-minded to see how flexible this class system is isn't anyone else's fault.

Again, can you tally them up and tell me which comes out on top? Tank, heals or dps/stealth?

Lodestar

Just going off the information we have, of course Nightblades have much of their design based on stealth DPS, and the basis in rogues. That is your first impression.

But, they are more versatile. As are all the classes. So they are not just pigeon holed in there. Just that NBs have their roots as it were in Rogues.

So saying, stop thinking of NBs as rogues, has some merits if it is meant in the context of highlighting that versatility. But if it is a flat out denial they are that or should not be. Then they are talking out their arse to be blunt. And seeing the responses here, that lends wait.

In summery, don't take it literally when people say stop thinking of NB as rogues.

Winterstrife

I find the lack of poison based skills in the Nightblade class skill lines a bit disappointing.
Also, for a class which was suppose to emphasis heavily on shealth & deceptive combat tactics, its rather lacking in that department.

Perhaps more interesting skills can be introduced in future patch?
After they fixed all our bugged abilities of course

zhevon

I would be happier with the "we are NOT rogue" argument. IF all our class abilities weren't rogue based, and IF we had more skill slots.

nerevarine1138

bg22 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

I'm not talking about what is broken or not, I'm just sick of ppl saying "stop thinking NB is supposed to be a rogue class".

-It is called "Nightblade".
-We have a "shadow" skill tree.
-We have an "assassination" skill tree.
-We are displayed in character creation as a medium armored, dual wielding type.

So stop. Just stop.

It is in fact primarily a rogue class. Yes, you CAN be a healer. Yes you CAN be a tank. But Those are not the PRIMARY roles of this class.

Your inability to understand how class mechanics work in this game is not a failing on the part of the developers.

It's not just that I can be a healer. It's that I have specific class abilities tailored towards healing. It's not just that I have the ability to be a tank. I have specific class abilities that are only useful for damage mitigation.

If you cannot comprehend a game where classes don't simply pigeonhole you into a particular role, that's your problem. No one else is responsible for that.

P.S. I play my stealth-melee-DPS Nightblade just fine, and I play my alt Nightblade healer/caster DPS just fine. They are equally fun to play.

So, there are more healing and tank abilities in our class than steath/dps abilities?

They're pretty evenly distributed, just like every other class. Some classes have whole trees devoted to traditional healing, but they can't get the same Siphoning attacks that we do. Some classes have skills devoted to damage mitigation: we have enemy damage reduction and dodge-increasing abilities. But to answer your main question: every class has more damage dealing abilities than tank/healing.

Again, the fact that you're too narrow-minded to see how flexible this class system is isn't anyone else's fault.

Again, can you tally them up and tell me which comes out on top? Tank, heals or dps/stealth?

DPS comes out on top, just as it does for every other class. No class has more tank or healing abilities than DPS. But as pointed out earlier, we have very few skills that are dedicated to stealth only.

Stop trying to make this game WoW. It isn't. There is no Rogue/Rouge class. Get over it.

ZOS_MichelleA

We have removed some more posts from this thread. Please keep the conversation on topic and respectful, even if you strongly disagree with each other. Thank you for your cooperation.

Mallow

Just a PSA: It's R-O-G-U-E. Not R-O-U-G-E. /end pedantic rant

bg22

@Neravarine‌

I never played WoW, so idk what you're even referencing it for. Also, you're right it's not a "class" but rather a "archetype". I should have made that more clear.

Regardless, archetype is still of form of classification, thus calling it a "class" is suitable.

Anyway, you're missing the point: the basis behind most of the class skills due point in a direction of being associated w/ a common "rogue" archetype, I.e. Assassin, steath , etc..

Can the Nightblade class be just as viable as a healer or tank? Absolutely. But, when looking at the names and functionalities of most of the class abilities, they deliver a "rogue" feel. And this would in fact, be the "general" purpose of this class Nightblade: Rogue.

I'll ask you this, if you had a friend who has never been introduced to this game in any way yet, and he says "I'm gonna give it a try, but I really like playing a rogue type character. What class should I pick?"

-What advice would you give him?

nerevarine1138

bg22 wrote: »

@Neravarine‌

I never played WoW, so idk what you're even referencing it for. Also, you're right it's not a "class" but rather a "archetype". I should have made that more clear.

Regardless, archetype is still of form of classification, thus calling it a "class" is suitable.

Anyway, you're missing the point: the basis behind most of the class skills due point in a direction of being associated w/ a common "rogue" archetype, I.e. Assassin, steath , etc..

Can the Nightblade class be just as viable as a healer or tank? Absolutely. But, when looking at the names and functionalities of most of the class abilities, they deliver a "rogue" feel. And this would in fact, be the "general" purpose of this class Nightblade: Rogue.

I'll ask you this, if you had a friend who has never been introduced to this game in any way yet, and he says "I'm gonna give it a try, but I really like playing a rogue type character. What class should I pick?"

-What advice would you give him?

I would tell him to pick any class at he wants and to probably go with dual wield/bow weapon trees and medium armor.

Again, you're using the word "viable" like these are secondary roles. Nightblade healers are on an even footing with any other healer in the game. Same with tanks. That's not just viable. That's not some crazy-unique build that no one will be able to pull off. That's a fully functional primary build.

No class in this game has any primary role. Period. Your weapon choice determines your role far more than your class.

bg22

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I would tell him to pick any class at he wants and to probably go with dual wield/bow weapon trees and medium armor.

Again, you're using the word "viable" like these are secondary roles. Nightblade healers are on an even footing with any other healer in the game. Same with tanks. That's not just viable. That's not some crazy-unique build that no one will be able to pull off. That's a fully functional primary build.

No class in this game has any primary role. Period. Your weapon choice determines your role far more than your class.

That's the most bs answer I've read yet. You know perfectly well that would tell them that they would most likely enjoy Nightblade. And if you didn't, you're just being dishonest (like right now).

And no, I said "JUST AS viable". Don't take my words for how you want to hear them, take them as they are written.

Checkmate. Have a nice day.

nerevarine1138

bg22 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

I would tell him to pick any class at he wants and to probably go with dual wield/bow weapon trees and medium armor.

Again, you're using the word "viable" like these are secondary roles. Nightblade healers are on an even footing with any other healer in the game. Same with tanks. That's not just viable. That's not some crazy-unique build that no one will be able to pull off. That's a fully functional primary build.

No class in this game has any primary role. Period. Your weapon choice determines your role far more than your class.

That's the most bs answer I've read yet. You know perfectly well that would tell them that they would most likely enjoy Nightblade. And if you didn't, you're just being dishonest (like right now).

And no, I said "JUST AS viable". Don't take my words for how you want to hear them, take them as they are written.

Checkmate. Have a nice day.

Well, I'll just let your argument stand as is, because it's simply a "if you don't agree with me, you're being dishonest," post. Which is ludicrous. Much like the OP.