Bash damage has been reduced way too much

Lemoncrap

I understand that being able to bash4days and kill every mob running at you isn't what it is intended for, but going from 300+ damage per bash to a constant 90 damage Is really making the game hard for me.

Being a tank and using only sword/shield throughout the game (I'm v9) I can't really just switch to another build/weapon as leveling from scratch is too hard at veteran level. Before It was difficult but I enjoyed it, now i'm struggling to kill 2 zombies as each light attack does 100 damage and they have 37k health each meaning that i'm probably dead by the time I get 37 hits in, no matter what skills I use the outcome is the same, the bash was the one thing helping me level as a tank and right now I'm not sure what to do. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Reenlister

Aye, I feel you. I to am a Tank, and with no recourse in the way of the sword, since it really just hits like a chop stick, the bash was about all that we could do.
I agree that it was pretty overpowered, but to go to 90 - 92 damage at this stage was a bit drastic. So now my sword is better than my shield, but only barely. I cant understand many things going on here..
All I know is that the weapon of choice for a manly man, be it an axe or a sword is useless, and now my shield is not my life saver.
EDIT: oh, and I am a Vet also, so the idea of going back to relearn something has zero appeal.

Jade1986

As a tank you shouldn't be doing that much damage in the first place.....if you want to do more damage, invest in more stamina (higher stamina = more damage ) instead of health and be dps. This game is in desperate need of companions though....

Vandril

Keep in mind that VR content was accidentally made much, much harder this patch. They goofed, increasing the stats of VR mobs all around to ungodly levels in both Health and Damage. It won't be anywhere near that bad after they fix it, which they are trying to do within the next 24 hours according to a staff post.

That said, I agree 100% with this change to bash. It makes more sense this way, from a balance perspective. Bashing should NOT be a DPS increase of large proportions, not even for tanks. It should be a casting interrupt that does slightly less damage than a normal weapon strike. The fact that they continue letting it do more damage to targets that get interrupted is a nice, generous bonus on the part of ZOS.

After the impending fix for the VR mob difficulty goof, if you're still having trouble, you should rethink your build a bit. Maybe you need a self-heal ability or a defensive ability. Maybe you have too much health and not enough damage (Health:Stamina Attributes), or vice versa. Maybe you need another CC ability - Power Bash is the best for keeping a target or two out of the fight. Maybe you need to change your gear a bit - are you using Heavy Armor? There are many things you can consider.

Also, on the topic of leveling weapon skills being hard in VR content, this is not at all the case. I'm VR 6 (almost 7) atm, on my Nightblade (read: the class with the largest number of broken abilities), and I have leveled, in VR zones: Light Armor (was admittedly already 50 by the time I hit VR), Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, 1H/Shield, Two-Handed (at 49 atm, almost 50), Bow, Duel-Wield, Siphoning (class, which I never used beforehand), and Shadow (class, which was ~40 when I hit VR, admittedly). All I have left is the two staff skill lines and I have maxed all weapon, armor, and class lines.

When trying to start leveling a new weapon type, just equip that weapon type (to your active weapon slot) before you turn in any quests. This will give a lot of weapon levels very quickly for the first 20 or so weapon levels - you can have weapon level 20 in about 5 quests. This is enough for your first three skills in that weapon's tree. Then, mix and match those skills with your choice of class skills, and you have a full set of abilities to use. All you're missing out on at that point is weapon passives and the last two skills for that weapon.

So, you can do it. It's not all that bad, just try it. Good luck.

Akhratos

laced wrote: »

As a tank you shouldn't be doing that much damage in the first place.....if you want to do more damage, invest in more stamina (higher stamina = more damage ) instead of health and be dps. This game is in desperate need of companions though....

I guess you never tried the 2handed skill tree. Probably the worst tree along with the heavy armor one.

Stamina based builds relying in weapon swings and skills (class skills = magicka) are a joke atm.

Pve speaking, this nerf forces all the DKs to wear light and build toward class skills (pyromage) rather than any sta based build.

There has never been a worthy melee build in this game (ask dw nbs). Class skills and light armor tree/sets are stupidly op no matter the class.

Jade1986

Archaon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

As a tank you shouldn't be doing that much damage in the first place.....if you want to do more damage, invest in more stamina (higher stamina = more damage ) instead of health and be dps. This game is in desperate need of companions though....

I guess you never tried the 2handed skill tree. Probably the worst tree along with the heavy armor one.

Stamina based builds relying in weapon swings and skills (class skills = magicka) are a joke atm.

Pve speaking, this nerf forces all the DKs to wear light and build toward class skills (pyromage) rather than any sta based build.

There has never been a worthy melee build in this game (ask dw nbs). Class skills and light armor tree/sets are stupidly op no matter the class.

On the contrary, my main character is 2 handed and heavy armor and is stamina based that uses no magic. Yes it is underpowered, and I agree that it needs to be buffed, but with more stamina comes more damage when you are low on stamina, which can also be accomplished with the sword n shield skill tree (not as well obviously, because you have a shield for damage mitigation).

Chrysolis

I think the problem of bash damage is ZOS used a "one size fits all" solution. The issue was never with true tanks. The issue was with medium armor, stamina based crit builds decked in bashing jewelry. That really was too much damage. This could be addressed by simply adding some degree of bash synergy into the Heavy Armor tree, I think.

NordJitsu

Its a Shield. Its not supposed to be your primary damage source.

If you want to do damage, use your light and heavy attacks, your active skills, ect.

Bash should be used situationally to interrupt casts.

ZOS_TristanK

Hi, folks! We wanted to pop in and let you know that we've moved this thread to General Discussion. Thanks for your feedback!

Akhratos

laced wrote: »

Archaon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

As a tank you shouldn't be doing that much damage in the first place.....if you want to do more damage, invest in more stamina (higher stamina = more damage ) instead of health and be dps. This game is in desperate need of companions though....

I guess you never tried the 2handed skill tree. Probably the worst tree along with the heavy armor one.

Stamina based builds relying in weapon swings and skills (class skills = magicka) are a joke atm.

Pve speaking, this nerf forces all the DKs to wear light and build toward class skills (pyromage) rather than any sta based build.

There has never been a worthy melee build in this game (ask dw nbs). Class skills and light armor tree/sets are stupidly op no matter the class.

On the contrary, my main character is 2 handed and heavy armor and is stamina based that uses no magic. Yes it is underpowered, and I agree that it needs to be buffed, but with more stamina comes more damage when you are low on stamina, which can also be accomplished with the sword n shield skill tree (not as well obviously, because you have a shield for damage mitigation).

Really, the 2handed tree is a big *meh*.

Spells with insta cast doing aoe damage or cc while you stack magicka dmg/crit/pen/magcostred/magregen. What about survability? No problem, you can spam endlessly the defensive skill of your choice to be automatically rewarded 800 armor non-stop thanks to 90% them being magicka skills and you having an endless magicka pool.

2handed? Waste 2s watching it swing to hit for 1,2 the damage that a 1h would, while losing a glyph in the way. Wait another 2s watching reverse slice trying to knock a player that is not even there anymore, making poor damage and high cost. Waste your basic dps resource pool to break cc, block, interrupt and roll all at the same time.

Then ZOS could tell us who though that it was fair to pair stats like mag cost reduction, spell crit or spell pen with 0,5%/p swing damage, 0,5%/p incoming heals, armor..

Haven

Just a thought. What about if bash also drew agro? Would make it more tanky no?

Agurto

Its 90-100 WITH passive that adds 100% damage. So what, without 2 points in passive its actually 45 damage. I mean, REALLY?! 45 damage in veteran ranks? And "use light attacks" advice is too troll to even answer...To use it ONLY to interrupt you need to switch from some other weapon and use it in time while enemy is channeling (and that happens fast and actually not often). Otherwise its a waste of stamina...So 1h tree now is only for group and nothing else and that is sad...

kitsinni

I'm kind of shocked how many people relied on Bash for their main damage ability. If you thought being able to block, interrupt while doing the most melee dps for the least stamina cost was going to stay around you were setting yourself up for disaster.

Why are people not using their class skills for damage with the shield for defense, armor and interrupts? Unless you are tanking you don't need any one hand attacks on your bar so that leaves 5 places for class skills.

SirJesto

This is SO not an issue it's hilarious.

Akhratos

kitsinni wrote: »

I'm kind of shocked how many people relied on Bash for their main damage ability. If you thought being able to block, interrupt while doing the most melee dps for the least stamina cost was going to stay around you were setting yourself up for disaster.

Why are people not using their class skills for damage with the shield for defense, armor and interrupts? Unless you are tanking you don't need any one hand attacks on your bar so that leaves 5 places for class skills.

Because class skills / magicka -> Pyromage.

Pyromage -> Light Armor + Dest Staff.

Win.

There was never a point in melee besides the stupids bash builds. Now ZOS took them away, all you are gonna ever see being competitive are Magicka based DK using Light.

NordJitsu

@Agurto‌

You're not supposed to be able to damage with it. That's ridiculous.

It gives you more armor, more block mitigation, cheaper block, more spell mitigation, and much more powerful interrupts.

If it also did good damage, like it used to, it would be OP.

You're a defensive player. You chose that line. Your job isn't to burst things, its to slowly whittle them down while staying alive. If you wanted Burst you should have picked a different weapon.

Or maybe you picked it after finding out how over powered it was.

SirJesto

Archaon wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

I'm kind of shocked how many people relied on Bash for their main damage ability. If you thought being able to block, interrupt while doing the most melee dps for the least stamina cost was going to stay around you were setting yourself up for disaster.

Why are people not using their class skills for damage with the shield for defense, armor and interrupts? Unless you are tanking you don't need any one hand attacks on your bar so that leaves 5 places for class skills.

Because class skills / magicka -> Pyromage.

Pyromage -> Light Armor + Dest Staff.

Win.

There was never a point in melee besides the stupids bash builds. Now ZOS took them away, all you are gonna ever see being competitive are Magicka based DK using Light.

If you are striving to be the most powerful video game player on the planet. Or you can just build it how you want and have fun....because you know.....that's what it's about.

Akhratos

SirJesto wrote: »

Archaon wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

I'm kind of shocked how many people relied on Bash for their main damage ability. If you thought being able to block, interrupt while doing the most melee dps for the least stamina cost was going to stay around you were setting yourself up for disaster.

Why are people not using their class skills for damage with the shield for defense, armor and interrupts? Unless you are tanking you don't need any one hand attacks on your bar so that leaves 5 places for class skills.

Because class skills / magicka -> Pyromage.

Pyromage -> Light Armor + Dest Staff.

Win.

There was never a point in melee besides the stupids bash builds. Now ZOS took them away, all you are gonna ever see being competitive are Magicka based DK using Light.

If you are striving to be the most powerful video game player on the planet. Or you can just build it how you want and have fun....because you know.....that's what it's about.

That is fun to hear from someone who cried out loud until they nerfed a skill (not like I care when 2handed sucked from start to an end, and it seems nobody cared about it).

So you are telling me to either go Pyro with the DK or stfu and become a pvp sparring? Nice advice to make your point valid.

ShintaiDK

At VR10 I went from around 260 to 108 with the passives added again. Without passives it was 72. So the passives also only add 50%, despite of saying +100%. My sword does around 120dmg.

All close combat skills also got added delay from 0.6sec to 1.1sec. So even if I spammed shield bash the dps is around 98dps.

Also the "interrupt" damage is usually nothing, but I think I seen up to 10% more. In short, more waste than good.

And to make the sword and board even worse, the pierce armour debuff is either broken or misleading tooltip. it debuffs around 4%, not 40%.

Agurto

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Agurto‌
You're a defensive player. You chose that line. Your job isn't to burst things, its to slowly whittle them down while staying alive. If you wanted Burst you should have picked a different weapon.

All difference between tank and dps - I can survive 4-5 hits where dps die with 2-3. Or I can use shield, block, do next to zero damage and survive until my stamina is over...Using class skills to do damage? They all use magicka, and huge amounts at that - thus not very usable without light armor and a lot more investment in magicka than a tank can afford while still being a tank...

Akhratos

ShintaiDK wrote: »

At VR10 I went from around 260 to 108 with the passives added again. Without passives it was 72. So the passives also only add 50%, despite of saying +100%. My sword does around 120dmg.

All close combat skills also got added delay from 0.6sec to 1.1sec. So even if I spammed shield bash the dps is around 98dps.

Also the "interrupt" damage is usually nothing, but I think I seen up to 10% more. In short, more waste than good.

And to make the sword and board even worse, the pierce armour debuff is either broken or misleading tooltip. it debuffs around 4%, not 40%.

It does, indeed.

What do you mean with close combat skills? 1h/s active skills?

They said bash would do higher damage when interrupting and lower when not. Seems a 10% was good enough for ZOS.

Indeed, again. It does debuff 4% instead of 40%, but who gives a damn when all other people care about is how OP bash abusers are? or Pyromages? Nerf the good, keep the bugged trash behind it.

The last skill granting extra speed while blocking is also bugged since beta times.

NordJitsu

@Agurto‌

If you're dying that fast and having that much trouble dealing damage, then you've got more issues than just shield bash. There's a lot for you to work on.

FYI, I have 3 weapon sets on my main. One of these is 1-Handed and Shield. And I'm very happy with the bash nerf, because now I can play 1-H shield properly without feeling like I'm intentionally using a sub optimal strategy.

Akhratos

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Agurto‌

If you're dying that fast and having that much trouble dealing damage, then you've got more issues than just shield bash. There's a lot for you to work on.

FYI, I have 3 weapon sets on my main. One of these is 1-Handed and Shield. And I'm very happy with the bash nerf, because now I can play 1-H shield properly without feeling like I'm intentionally using a sub optimal strategy.

Yes, because everything is suboptimal right now in the 1h/s tree. Not to speak about the 2h tree.

Id like to see you soloing with a 1h/s or a 2h on your DK VR content. Unless you are a Light Pyromage "abuser", of course.

hk11

I think bash builds were legit in pve. Tuning it was not a real issue but destroying it as a tactic/playstyle is.

They should have buffed other classes. Everyone seems to enjoy gloating over the nerf, but everyone is going to face this as it's apparent that anything fun or viable is going to get nerfed.

I don't play a bash based DK btw.

As for PVP, EQ2 had a system where ablilities had different effects in pvp vs pve. That would have been optimal for ESO.

PBpsy

The problem is not that the bash damage is to low is that the skill line mechanic is stupid. If we could block and simple attack simultaneously then it would be much better. No need to bash.

Sadae

@OP - Your problem is that you're trying to make bash your main DPS. It was never meant to be a source of high DPS, that's been fixed, and now you need to find an alternate source of DPS. And you're not going to find that using a 1H+Shield. That is for tanking, not for DPS.

Honestly, the way it is now is how it should be, and how it always should have been. You need to get rid of the mindset you used to have concerning bash. I have the 1H+Shield skill tree completely maxed out, and am happy with the changes. I use it for tanking when in groups, and not for exploits using unintentional skill damage.

Stratti

kitsinni wrote: »

I'm kind of shocked how many people relied on Bash for their main damage ability. If you thought being able to block, interrupt while doing the most melee dps for the least stamina cost was going to stay around you were setting yourself up for disaster.

Why are people not using their class skills for damage with the shield for defense, armor and interrupts? Unless you are tanking you don't need any one hand attacks on your bar so that leaves 5 places for class skills.

This is silly statement. When I downloaded recount and realised the extent that bash was powerful I naturally used it as my main ability weaving in dots as well but bash the main ability.

The ability was amazing it hit close to 300 for me without glyphing, could be hit as quick as you can push your mouse and defended at the same time.
My rotation was charge, ember strike , fiery breath , bash x3 , heavy attack , reapply dots etc

I was hitting around 400 dps. Two days ago I took out 2 vr3 adds of 3 came in at the end , I took all of them out wih 45% damage to bash and next ability 17% which was my ultimate.

Hence the nerf

While now I have less dps I have added in whip instead of fiery breath and am using that with petrify on off spec for cc. I am still effective if not slower at around 200dps.

It's an adjustment but we have so many abilities that with some experimentation we will nail the new setup

Stratti

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Agurto‌

If you're dying that fast and having that much trouble dealing damage, then you've got more issues than just shield bash. There's a lot for you to work on.

FYI, I have 3 weapon sets on my main. One of these is 1-Handed and Shield. And I'm very happy with the bash nerf, because now I can play 1-H shield properly without feeling like I'm intentionally using a sub optimal strategy.

Sub-optimal strategy - the strategy did more dps then dps classes while defending and using minimal resources . This is a statement that makes no sense. Holier than thou is not helpful.

I too am happy with the nerf it was OP , I used it as main ability and others and would get people asking me how I take on so many mobs and not die . It had to happen so let's find the next thing we can exploit so ppl can qq , ; )

Ffolks

Sadae wrote: »

And you're not going to find that using a 1H+Shield. That is for tanking, not for DPS.

That mindset is what needs to go. In a game where we're given so much flexibility that just shouldn't be the case. Melee DPS with sword and shield was and should continue to be viable.

Did Bash need to change? Yes, I'll grant that, but equipping a shield should not define a build as "tank".

One of my rotations, for better or worse, on my NB is:

Ambush - Concealed Weapon - Puncture (PvE)/Low Slash(PvP) - Bash - Bash - Impale

I intentionally didn't run bash glyphs so that I wouldn't have any unreasonable expectations when they inevitable changed bash, as they did.

What remains to be seen is how much of a difference I'm going to see once they revert the veteran mobs back from their current buffed state. I'll admit to having a knee jerk reaction yesterday to that bug as it made the Bash nerf appear way over the top.

Tanabe

I never had bash dmg rings/neck and i also spammed bash abit, but i kinda like it now, it do a gopod amount of dmg to mobs that i interrupt, and thats what the bash is for in the first place.
It was not unreal that you could kill something with a shield bash but stabbing a sword at em should do more dmg.
Mostly my dmg comes from spell dmg from class skills, and just dot and outlive the mobs
if you cant kill a mob now that you cant spam 1 skill then you my friend needs to rethink your build.

Tendeep

ZOS_TristanK wrote: »

Hi, folks! We wanted to pop in and let you know that we've moved this thread to General Discussion. Thanks for your feedback!

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