What exactly factors in the Leaderboard points?

xMovingTarget · March 2015

We know that the amount of enemies killed, deaths and time goes into the points for Trials and Arena. Is there something else? Some people say synergies also etc etc. So how get the points exactly calculated or what influences the points? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Trial Leaderboard Changes

We have changed the way in which we calculate and present leaderboards within Trials and Dragonstar Arena, and are now using a point-based system. Due to this change, we will be resetting all Trial leaderboards.
We have reduced the penalty for losing lives within the Trial or Arena. It still matters, but not nearly as much as it did previously.

There are several things that award points within Trials and Dragonstar Arena. The breakdown is as follows:
Monsters: Each monster within a Trial (with few exceptions) will award points when they are killed. The point total varies based on the difficulty of the monster, though you will want to kill all of the monsters within a Trial to get all of the points.

Difficult Mode: Boss fights within Trials on difficult mode will give a very large chunk of points. You will most likely want to run difficult mode as the points awarded for this can tip the scales directly in your favor.

Arena Completion: Each arena within Dragonstar Arena is worth a certain amount of points.

After all the points are achieved within a Trial or Dragonstar Arena, you will be awarded a point bonus based on completion time.
Your leaderboard score will include your points plus your time bonus.

I dont think there are any hidden things. But it would be great to get some official clarification.

[Moderator Note: Title edited per our rules on Names in Thread Titles.]

Daveheart · March 2015

I'm not sure. I had a 15 death vDSA that got a ~7900 score, and the next week most of the same group ran again without me and only had 5 deaths and had ~5500 points. It's possible that my run just had a much faster clean time (wasn't there for the second, so I don't know), but it still seems weird that 10 fewer deaths wouldn't have generated a better score.

xMovingTarget · March 2015

Daveheart wrote: »

I'm not sure. I had a 15 death vDSA that got a ~7900 score, and the next week most of the same group ran again without me and only had 5 deaths and had ~5500 points. It's possible that my run just had a much faster clean time (wasn't there for the second, so I don't know), but it still seems weird that 10 fewer deaths wouldn't have generated a better score.

Yea. That´s why i want to get some official clarification. It doesnt seem consistent.

xherics · March 2015

- VET DSA run with 1 death and time 1h 16m = 7845 points
- VET DSA run with 7 deaths and time 1h 12m = 7360 points
- VET DSA run with approx 40-50 deaths and 1h 40m = 2789 points

Dear @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom can you please also make an official announcement regarding the leaderboard point system like you did today regarding the enlightenment?

Can you please specify, what gives plus points and how many; what gives minus points and how many? Can you please specify, that 1 minute of Trial time how many points gives?

Can you please answer questions, like:
- If is there any difference when we do AOE (pulling) or Single Target killing
- if synergies gives extra points
- if death gives minus points
- and etc. if xy gives extra plus points or minus points

The whole community will really appreciate it, if you can answer these questions and explain deeply how the new point system works.

Thank you.

Zapzarap · March 2015

Its a realy *** system... We have done 2 AA runs yesterday:
1. run
Time: 14min 05sec
deaths: 3
Points: 9893
2. run
Time: 14min 22sec
deaths: 0
Points: 9764

kidding? 17sec counts more than 3 deaths?^^ there seems to be some hidden factor...

Anyway... we also have done HM in AA. I am not shure but i guess it was ~47k extra points... we finished it with ~24 deaths and got an endscore of 478! (Sorry i dont have the time here...) Its nice to have an extra score of 47k points wiped off like nothing

Dear @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom : The old system was not the best, ok. but at least we knew what it was based on... Would be nice to have a clear statement to the new system... Until now it is just a random number generated from a random (sometimes buggy) leaderboard

Aenlir · March 2015

It would definitely be nice to have some clarification. Right now it seems to be almost completely about speed, for example a deathless DSA run scored lower than a 9 death one because it was 2 minutes slower. I personally really disagree with this because we now don't have to take survival into account for our strategies anymore. I agree with making deaths less punishing, but this is not a good solution unless there is something we are missing.

xMovingTarget · March 2015

Still nothing. Please give us an answer. Since this system is confusing.

s7732425ub17_ESO · March 2015

It's funny how deaths will wipe out your entire score. Run a normal AA, not fast but definitely not slow, get an average score of 6k at the end, 20ish deaths, and get a score of 70.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom · March 2015

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers. We hope to have something for you in the next few days.

xherics · March 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers. We hope to have something for you in the next few days.

It is appreciated that you decided to share informations regarding the point system.

We just want to know some more specific and detailed informations, what to focus to get bigger points, because at the moment the whole point system is a mess for everybody, even if we compare times, deaths, AOE, single target, every time and every groups have very different points, what is confusing.

Thank you.

s7732425ub17_ESO · March 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers. We hope to have something for you in the next few days.

This is actually the complete opposite of what you should be doing. I don't want to lecture ZOS game designers, but someone has to be the one to say it. If you are trying to create competitive endgame PVE content that has worldwide leaderboards, you had better explain exactly how the score is calculated.

The WORST thing you can do is make people BLIND to how their score is calculated. Right now, whenever a group completes AA, they have no idea what their score will be until the very end of the run. They also have no idea of things they can do to improve the score. When I look at the scoreboards and see a score of 3467, what does that tell me? Nothing. I don't know how many deaths that group had. I don't know their time. **I don't know what I have to do in order to beat that score.** This is a HUGE FLAW in the design of this system. At least with the old system you knew exactly what you needed to do to get a world best. You knew exactly what your group needed to accomplish in order to score a spot on the weekly leaderboard. I don't care if there is a really strange formula to add points based on time and deaths; either simplify the scoring or give players this formula.

Zapzarap · March 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers. We hope to have something for you in the next few days.

Same as my previous speaker...
Sorry but "discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out" is bulls***. Its like a hurdles where no one tells you how to get the highest score... A normal guy would try to jump over each hurdle but the jury decide to give 1 point for jumping over, 5 for getting down by and 10 points to destroy the hurdle...

As my previous speaker already sayed: You created an EU and a NA leaderboard to let the best guilds compete against each other... Now the best guild can say "We are the best guild, but i dont know how we have done it"

timidobserver · March 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers. We hope to have something for you in the next few days.

What is the problem with revealing all of the behind-the-scenes formulas. The challenge should be in the trial itself not figuring out the scoring system. The amount of competition in trials has decreased since 1.6 launched. Trying to get the best time was a pretty simple mechanic and easy to get competitive about. Now it is who can manage to achieve the highest random score that nobody knows how to interpret. At this point why would anyone even care who has the best trial or vet dsa score.

Vahrokh · March 2015

If they will give exact formulas then people SHALL min max over them.

Complete ignorance about how points are calculated is useful to avoid pre patch 1.6 situation, where less than awesome classes and specs would be left out.

Mujuro · March 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

What is the problem with revealing all of the behind-the-scenes formulas. The challenge should be in the trial itself not figuring out the scoring system. The amount of competition in trials has decreased since 1.6 launched. Trying to get the best time was a pretty simple mechanic and easy to get competitive about. Now it is who can manage to achieve the highest random score that nobody knows how to interpret. At this point why would anyone even care who has the best trial or vet dsa score.

I believe completions may also have dropped because there are fewer people interested in running them, particularly given that there are (relatively speaking) fewer drop items that people perceive as worthwhile/valuable. I agree wholehearted with your other points though.

timidobserver · March 2015

Vahrokh wrote: »

If they will give exact formulas then people SHALL min max over them.

Complete ignorance about how points are calculated is useful to avoid pre patch 1.6 situation, where less than awesome classes and specs would be left out.

There has to be that one guy that is like "if the scoring system is meaningless, people might invite me to their group."

DeathDealer19 · March 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers. We hope to have something for you in the next few days.

Are you kidding me? You give us metrics that govern how we are scored, yet you don't tell us how the scoring works?
I love the change to the leaderboards but theyre pointless if we have absolutely zero idea how to get a good score. From all the experience I have with trials so far, it seems that its still 100% time based. The faster you go, the better the score. The only thing they changed was the 5 min penalty per death. For instance, in doing Sanctum Ophidia, completing the feeding pit gives no extra score. Even though they said killing everything contributed. seems that is FALSE. Im guessing there is also a multiplier for Hard modes or some extra score given. You cant do Hard Mode Vet DSA though so that's not an option.

It seems like its still 100% speed and resurrections remaining so in all honesty I don't think they did much just change it to a score instead of a time and remove the 5 min penalty per death. Them saying, we don't want to give out our secrets just leads me to believe they didn't change much of anything like I just described and they don't want the outrage lol

DeathDealer19 · March 2015

Heres a new leaderboard to govern how well you're scored! wanna know how it works? NOPE lol

Zapzarap · March 2015

DeathDealer19 wrote: »

For instance, in doing Sanctum Ophidia, completing the feeding pit gives no extra score. Even though they said killing everything contributed. seems that is FALSE. Im guessing there is also a multiplier for Hard modes or some extra score given. You cant do Hard Mode Vet DSA though so that's not an option.

you are wrong. From the patchnotes: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1506153#Comment_1506153

"Monsters: Each monster within a Trial (with few exceptions) will award points when they are killed. The point total varies based on the difficulty of the monster, though you will want to kill all of the monsters within a Trial to get all of the points."

It wouldnt make sense to kill the mobs in Hel Ra (left side) again and again... so some of them are excluded.

About HM: Yes, for example Archiv HM gives you 40.000 points (if i remember right).

DeathDealer19 · March 2015

Zapzarap wrote: »

show previous quotes

DeathDealer19 wrote: »

For instance, in doing Sanctum Ophidia, completing the feeding pit gives no extra score. Even though they said killing everything contributed. seems that is FALSE. Im guessing there is also a multiplier for Hard modes or some extra score given. You cant do Hard Mode Vet DSA though so that's not an option.

you are wrong. From the patchnotes: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1506153#Comment_1506153

"Monsters: Each monster within a Trial (with few exceptions) will award points when they are killed. The point total varies based on the difficulty of the monster, though you will want to kill all of the monsters within a Trial to get all of the points."

It wouldnt make sense to kill the mobs in Hel Ra (left side) again and again... so some of them are excluded.

About HM: Yes, for example Archiv HM gives you 40.000 points (if i remember right).

Actually, I am not wrong. The only enemies inside a trial that give points are bosses themselves. I have cleared all trials since 1.6 went live. Unless each trash mob gives points behind the scenes. My score in Sanctum Ophidia did not go up at all in a run where we did the feeding pit (which is killing like 50 trolls if you didn't know)

Hard mode giving more points is indeed true but as far as actual score calculation, it seems the only things that still make a difference are speed and how many resurrections you have remaining. In Vet DSA for instance, you cant skip mobs. You have to kill everything. The only way to get a good score in there is to do it in X amount of minutes with as little deaths as possible. Like I said they did remove or change the 5 min penalty per death but that seems to be all that has changed. And ZOS saying we don't wanna tell you how we calculate your score just proves it.

Vahrokh · March 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

show previous quotes

Vahrokh wrote: »

If they will give exact formulas then people SHALL min max over them.

Complete ignorance about how points are calculated is useful to avoid pre patch 1.6 situation, where less than awesome classes and specs would be left out.

There has to be that one guy that is like "if the scoring system is meaningless, people might invite me to their group."

In a game made for DKs and templars, people did mistakes and rolled other less favored classes.

Nifty2g · March 2015

I like how I've made topics about this and gotten no reply from ZOS

Anyhow, you can't keep the formula secret, because lets say one part of your formula isn't awarding points but sometimes it is, killing x mob gives x points, and it doesn't, but you don't know that. Nothing against you guys at ZOS but you can't expect us to rely on a point based system where sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. because from what i see it is clearly bugged.

Also, please can we have a hardmode system implemented into veteran dsa , where a no death run you get a 10,000 point bonus or something like that

Rune_Relic · March 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers. We hope to have something for you in the next few days.

How can you achieve an (designed) objective, if you don't know what the underlying (coded) real objective is ?
Especially if they differ.

This is exactly the same as all the combat calculations that you obscure away to oblivion, so that it takes an age to unravel what really is going on under the bonnet instead of what was supposed to happen.
Only to find design intent and actual effect are completely different.

Can we have transparency please ? Have you tried making a cake without the right ingredients ?

Vahrokh · March 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers. We hope to have something for you in the next few days.

How can you achieve an (designed) objective, if you don't know what the underlying (coded) real objective is ?
Especially if they differ.

This is exactly the same as all the combat calculations that you obscure away to oblivion, so that it takes an age to unravel what really is going on under the bonnet instead of what was supposed to happen.
Only to find design intent and actual effect are completely different.

Can we have transparency please ? Have you tried making a cake without the right ingredients ?

Their publicly stated intent, since day 1, was to make a game where numbers would not be at the foundation of every gameplay choice. Less of an hard core min maxer kingdom and more of an immersive experience. Same reason why they kept a minimalistic UI and same reason why their API is not numbers bean counters friendly.

This also helps hiding classes imbalances in PvE.

Nifty2g · March 2015

This whole strategy they are following with this point based system hiding their formulas and numbers is leaving a very bitter taste in my mouth for what ZOS actually stands for in terms of competition and actual working systems, seriously what other title hides their factors for competition

xMovingTarget · March 2015

Either tell us how it works or get rid of the leaderboards. You cant put leaderboards in your game and not expect ppl to use the best possible meta to achieve the highest score.
Guilds like the one I am in are all hardcore min maxers when it comes to competition. But we cant compete when the leaderboard we compete in dont make any sense.

tengri · March 2015

Z, it is of the utmost importance that we know exactly how to nurture and fine-tune our scores! Down to the very last decimal point or our whole existence is at stake here!
Please, please, pleeeeeeeeeeease reveal full details asap. Our life depends on it!
Pretty please?
Oh, can we have some more cheese, too?

pppontus · March 2015

DeathDealer19 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Zapzarap wrote: »

DeathDealer19 wrote: »

For instance, in doing Sanctum Ophidia, completing the feeding pit gives no extra score. Even though they said killing everything contributed. seems that is FALSE. Im guessing there is also a multiplier for Hard modes or some extra score given. You cant do Hard Mode Vet DSA though so that's not an option.

you are wrong. From the patchnotes: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1506153#Comment_1506153

"Monsters: Each monster within a Trial (with few exceptions) will award points when they are killed. The point total varies based on the difficulty of the monster, though you will want to kill all of the monsters within a Trial to get all of the points."

It wouldnt make sense to kill the mobs in Hel Ra (left side) again and again... so some of them are excluded.

About HM: Yes, for example Archiv HM gives you 40.000 points (if i remember right).

Actually, I am not wrong. The only enemies inside a trial that give points are bosses themselves. I have cleared all trials since 1.6 went live. Unless each trash mob gives points behind the scenes. My score in Sanctum Ophidia did not go up at all in a run where we did the feeding pit (which is killing like 50 trolls if you didn't know)

Hard mode giving more points is indeed true but as far as actual score calculation, it seems the only things that still make a difference are speed and how many resurrections you have remaining. In Vet DSA for instance, you cant skip mobs. You have to kill everything. The only way to get a good score in there is to do it in X amount of minutes with as little deaths as possible. Like I said they did remove or change the 5 min penalty per death but that seems to be all that has changed. And ZOS saying we don't wanna tell you how we calculate your score just proves it.

Actually, you are wrong. It's easy to check, after every trash pull check the leaderboards and you'll see your current score which goes up for every single mob you kill - including the feeding pit which actually gives an additional 2K points.

ginoboehm · March 2015

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey folks, just wanted to let you know we've seen this thread and others like it and are currently discussing what details we're comfortable with giving out. We do want to help clear up confusion, but also don't want to reveal all the behind-the-scenes formulas and numbers. We hope to have something for you in the next few days.

what are you talking about? you give random numbers and then don't want us to tell how you calculate the score? Then get rid of it add minutes for deaths again and be done with it. We just did dsav with a quite good score first run we were really depressed like 8 deaths because of disconnects or mistakes but a 1h time 8700 or whatever points which really suprised us. next run like 2-3 death almost the same time almost 9000 points so do deaths not matter anymore? We are currently going for the best score and to reach that 10000 points i would really like what you calculate and how otherwise even if we do it it will have a bitter taste because we don't actually know what we did better than anybody else.

Do you hate endgame or competetive play?

Merlin13KAGL · March 2015

pppontus wrote: »

show previous quotes

DeathDealer19 wrote: »

Zapzarap wrote: »

DeathDealer19 wrote: »

For instance, in doing Sanctum Ophidia, completing the feeding pit gives no extra score. Even though they said killing everything contributed. seems that is FALSE. Im guessing there is also a multiplier for Hard modes or some extra score given. You cant do Hard Mode Vet DSA though so that's not an option.

you are wrong. From the patchnotes: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1506153#Comment_1506153

"Monsters: Each monster within a Trial (with few exceptions) will award points when they are killed. The point total varies based on the difficulty of the monster, though you will want to kill all of the monsters within a Trial to get all of the points."

It wouldnt make sense to kill the mobs in Hel Ra (left side) again and again... so some of them are excluded.

About HM: Yes, for example Archiv HM gives you 40.000 points (if i remember right).

Actually, I am not wrong. The only enemies inside a trial that give points are bosses themselves. I have cleared all trials since 1.6 went live. Unless each trash mob gives points behind the scenes. My score in Sanctum Ophidia did not go up at all in a run where we did the feeding pit (which is killing like 50 trolls if you didn't know)

Hard mode giving more points is indeed true but as far as actual score calculation, it seems the only things that still make a difference are speed and how many resurrections you have remaining. In Vet DSA for instance, you cant skip mobs. You have to kill everything. The only way to get a good score in there is to do it in X amount of minutes with as little deaths as possible. Like I said they did remove or change the 5 min penalty per death but that seems to be all that has changed. And ZOS saying we don't wanna tell you how we calculate your score just proves it.

Actually, you are wrong. It's easy to check, after every trash pull check the leaderboards and you'll see your current score which goes up for every single mob you kill - including the feeding pit which actually gives an additional 2K points.

Kinda what I mentioned in another thread. Have one individual standing by with the leaderboard open as a recorder.

You can quickly see how many points you go up for mob/boss kills and how many points you lose for death #1, death #2, etc (unless it's a bonus given at the end for rez's remaining).

After that, the only real thing left to figure out is the time factor. Given that some groups can get some pretty consistent runs, I would think that wouldn't be far to figure either.

(Might also check for bonuses for rezzing in battle, vs battle's end, synergy (during a fight, I would assume)) and other factors.) I doubt they're going to break down even the relative weight of each component, let alone give you a full list of them, but I suspect it could be determined with more exactness than it currently has.

Not to sound cheesy, but I think their intention is for every group to do the best they can and reap the result, not to figure out the fine tuning for the highest score.

Nifty2g · March 2015

OR you can just have ZOS tell us like they should because its a new system FILLED WITH BUGS most likely, but hey, ZOS do what they like, who cares about the players,

Just do DSA and Trials, sometimes you might get a good score sometimes you might night, depending on the RNG they decide to give you, you might get lucky