Fayaburn wrote: »

Hi,
Deadric Prey / Velocious Curse
Concerning the Prey, the modifications introduced with the apparition of this morph go toward the good direction. However, the damage bonus compared to a flat Force pulse is too low to be really considered. The pet damage buff could be nice if the pet damage wasn't such a small portion of the total parse. We have to remember here that we only have 5 slots per bar so every skill we slot much be beneficial enough to gain its spot. A solution could be to boost the damage of this morph only, or boost the pet damage further.

Surge
Used to be a class defining skill. Now it only is an Entropy/Rally ersatz. Something needs to be modified here, and not only on the healing section of the spell.

I use Daedric Prey in my single tough target bar for solo play and since that bar uses a resto staff it really does make a difference. Not saying I would turn down a damage boost, and possibly have it focus any of your summoned creatures on that target.

Crit Surge also still works for my destro staff bar, but I've got a suggestion for making it better:

tinythinker wrote: »

Off of the top of my head, I might make it look like this with the current (1.6.5-1.6.6) cost and cooldown:

Invoke Meridia's name to get a rush of power, granting you Minor Prophecy for an additional 3% Spell Critical chance and inflicting Minor Breach on affected targets, reducing their Spell Resistance by 8%.

While active, critical strikes heal for you 60% of the damage done.

That would be amazing.

Erock25 wrote: »

I disagree or maybe just don't understand your position on Overload. It is very nice damage even in PVE and having an extra available bar is valuable. I do wish the damage was reduced and we were allowed to light attack weave with it (like we were for one patch on PTS).

That is basically what I was saying. If the purpose is to provide a nice burst window to the Sorcerer, then allow us to weave with it. Or increase cost to 50ult per light attack and apply a 1.5x multiplicator to damage. Make it bursty ^^
If the purpose is to allow a bit of DPS without consuming resources, then the skill in itself is just laughable for that purpose.
Basically, I am saying that in its current state, that ultimate does not bring much to the table.
The third bar argument for me is null. That 3rd bar should not exist and I am not even sure it was an intended mecanism when the game was designed (same for the clanfear heal... why would they add a buff to a class desperate for one and not mention it directly in the patch note?...).

Erock25 wrote: »

I also disagree with getting rid of the extra cost for multiple casts of Bolt Escape, and that is from a PVP player who is currently in a magicka spec. It is a shame that this mechanic basically locks stamina builds out of using this as an escape, but that is okay, especially if stam builds are given a morph of Ward.

I am not saying to get rid of the extra cost. Just talking about the magicka regen that is crippled after using that skill.

Liquid Lightning
The new Sorcerer DoT. Good modifications, nice skill. Biggest downside is the difficulty to aim it properly from max range. This could be adressed by increasing slightly its radius. Another modification could be to add some kind of smartcast mecanism. If the caster is not aiming at a target, nothing changes. However if I am targeting a mob when I cast it, it automatically casts the zone at the position of the target. This would be a nice modification for all ground target spells as the current double activation in order to cast them is clunky and the proper aiming from range is hard.

Truer words never spoken. I have never played any class than sorcerer beyond level 6, so I don't know if there are other class skills that use this double trigger mechanism. However, all the skills that use this, like Ultimates, and Mage Guild skills, feel 'clunky'. Perfect word choice. And your suggestion for a fix is good too. Really wish the Devs would clue in on this!

Verdwhisper wrote: »

We all know sorcs skills and passives are in a horrible situation atm, especially for stam sorcs. If you wanna be happy, reroll a dk, they are just dk fan boys and they balance this game around dk. Sad for other classes but it is the case here.

Meanwhile, I still enjoy way more playing my sorc than I enjoy playing my DK.

I agree with all these points really. The Sorc is in a horrible place right now without being able to place first in any of the roles this game has. Our heals are weak, our tanking is weak, and our DPS is very weak compared to the other classes. I know you wasn't wanting to "compare the Sorc to other classes" but that is the metric we must use. It is also the metric we fail on.

Of course as other's have already said, Zenimax has no intention's of making meaningful improvements to the Sorc class. In my opinion they will leave everything pretty much exactly how it is until sales drop off in the console department. Then they 'might" do some adjustments to the other classes or release new content. I really hope I'm wrong but as the Developer's of Zenimax said themselves they consider the Sorc's a "Learn to play" situation.

My thoughts are mostly covered here... although thewe threads are slightly out of date, it is still mostly accurate.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153309/critique-of-current-sorcerer-skill-trees#latest

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151904/sorcerer-daedric-summoning-rewrite#latest

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157397/sorcerer-surge-discussion-all-welcome#latest

But as you can see they generally come to a similar conclusion to the OP.

Jar_Ek wrote: »

My thoughts are mostly covered here... although thewe threads are slightly out of date, it is still mostly accurate.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153309/critique-of-current-sorcerer-skill-trees#latest

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151904/sorcerer-daedric-summoning-rewrite#latest

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157397/sorcerer-surge-discussion-all-welcome#latest

But as you can see they generally come to a similar conclusion to the OP.

I went through the posts a second time.

Concerning the Daedric Summoning tree, I like your propositions. The extra activation of toggles would allow more control over the pets which is good. The passives modification you propose are nice and deal with the clearly useless passives gimping this tree.
However, I am not fond of the modifications proposed to the Ward. Hardened ward is fine as it is, and Empowered is according to me a lesser version with gadget kisscool effect. I would rather see the modifications I proposed in the OP implemented : merge the pet damage buff to Deadric prey and replace Empowered by a stamina morph. That would allow access to a class defining skill to stamina builds and remove that duplication between Deadric prey and Empowered ward.

Concerning Surge, according to me, if we want keep the way it works now, the only solution is to remove the cooldown and cap the number of Crits to 6 per heal.
However, even if the Surge heal is made viable with such a modification, the skill would remain a lesser version of Entropy/Rally. I would rather see a complete rework of the skill for that reason.

In fact I am going to write up a modified and partially new set of Sorcerer skill lines with appropriate changes and post it on these forums by the end of the week...

Erock25 wrote: »

Fayaburn wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I also disagree with getting rid of the extra cost for multiple casts of Bolt Escape, and that is from a PVP player who is currently in a magicka spec. It is a shame that this mechanic basically locks stamina builds out of using this as an escape, but that is okay, especially if stam builds are given a morph of Ward.

I am not saying to get rid of the extra cost. Just talking about the magicka regen that is crippled after using that skill.

I may be possibly mixing up some version of PTS but if I recall correctly, I thought the magicka regen reduction was removed from this skill.

It is not mentionned in the tooltip but I was pretty sure the reduction was still there ingame. I will need to check that. If the reduction is gone, the skill is fine for me.

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Fayaburn Well the suggested changes to ward were really aimed at giving sorcerers a support and healing boost - although the changes would probably be best as part of the Empowered morph. I am unsure about providing stamina sorcerers with a ward as I suspect it would make them OP (though it could be tied to health and cost stamina or even magicka).

The problem of making the Sorcerer healing rely on Ward is that it would not synergize properly with existing skills. I would still prefer the Healing ward from Restoration staff over the skill you described.
As a healer, you want true heals most of the time and maybe an emergency shield when players take big hits to have the time to replenish their health. That is the exact purpose of Healing ward.

According to me, the biggest flaw for sorcerer healing is the fact that they don't have access to Major Mending buff. If Bound Aegis provided that buff, it would bring Sorcerer healing capacities on par with NBs and DKs.

Pet feedback: OP, you more less recommend Restoring Twilight over Clanfear. I had been running with a clanfear (at VR14), but switched after reading your comments. Didn't work for my build because the Twilight doesn't pull aggro nearly as much as clanfear, and died much quicker. In 1.6. the clanfear is quite robust, often living through mob encounters. Even better, it really pulls aggro, which lets me be more of a Conjurer/Summoner, letting the pet melee while I do ranged casting. With 5 piece Seducer and 3 Martial Knowledge and a buff, I was already rarely running out of magic and the Twilight did not add to the magic pool enough to offset the increased damage I was taking, plus having to recast the pet more often.

So let's try to get some level of consensus as to what sorcerer skills should be, which are good and which are bad and for which specs. What should change and how.

@Snit @Grao @Reykice @Erock25 @loki547 @pppontus @Gil.Galad @TehMagnus

Would you like to contribute please?

@Erock25 Thank you. It seems like thus far most of us have similarish ideas. Let's hope zos take note...

I am certainly not among the top sorcs, but here are my 2cents regardless:

While I still believe that our dps is not quite there yet (though certainly better then in 1.5), my biggest issue is the lack of group utility... this is not helped by the fact that everything one would actually want to crowed control in pve is immune; thus rendering an entire sorc skillline semi-useless for pve

I am going to just try and break this down on the skills that I believe could use changing / I don't fully agree with your assesment.

Fayaburn wrote: »

Hi,

[*] Volatile Familiar / Clanfear
Clanfear is quite nice for lower levels soloing as it drags aggro from you. Not very useful however as the class got other (and imo better) survivability mecanisms. The DPS produced is marginal and not a reason to slot it. The heal on desummoning is a good idea, however the double nerf that followed burried it into the ground. A single target heal with a cast time of 1.3s (~2s with desummoning) is borderline useless, and we also lost Rebate in the process.
Volatile Familiar was almost never used since it is still crippled by the chain summoning bug. The new 1.3s cast time made sure nobody will use it offensively anymore.

The cast time really did weaken this skill imo, with the cast time it made it a premeditated cast that now is suppose to heal us, the problem is that it took away our utility to do so. I personally would like to see the heal slightly decreased and give it back the instant cast/ really reduced cast time.

[*] Deadric Prey / Velocious Curse
Concerning the Prey, the modifications introduced with the apparition of this morph go toward the good direction. However, the damage bonus compared to a flat Force pulse is too low to be really considered. The pet damage buff could be nice if the pet damage wasn't such a small portion of the total parse. We have to remember here that we only have 5 slots per bar so every skill we slot much be beneficial enough to gain its spot. A solution could be to boost the damage of this morph only, or boost the pet damage further.
Velocious curse is a nice skill for a burst combo in PvP even if making it blocable is quite sad.

the damage increase for daedric prey is actually kind of nice. Per cast of the skill, Daedric prey still deals more damage then force pulse (by ~25 - 30 % depending on where you have your CP spent), and also does give a boost to twilight if you do use them. I think the main fix for this skill would be to make clanfear more useful. By doing that we already increase the damage potential of this skill for a build specialized around summons.

[*] Restoring Twilight
The skill is pretty nice even if the pet DPS is not that good. The magicka regen buff is one of the very few utilities Sorcerer is offered but can't be stacked with other Sorcs.

one thing I would just say about this, a passive damage is actually a lot more beneficial then it seems to being let on, if we are able to keep the twilight alive, this would be one of the best damage / cast skills that sorcs have as it takes literally 0 global cool downs to cast and thus provides a substantial damage increase. It is just as soon as the summon dies that we loose this benefit and in some fights this can be easily done.

[*] Bound Armor / Bound Aegis
The damage reduction buffs are anecdotic considering the skill constraints. It is slotted solely for the resource pool increase. Stamina users benefit from the Heavy attacks buff. A nice addition for the Aegis morph would be to grant Major Mending buff while toggle is on. More generally, I expect more from a toggle than what is proposed here.

First I don't think sorcs need major mending, we should leave that for the DK's, give them the burst potential, I think aegis should have something to do to aid the Sorc tanks, not sure what off the top of my head. But by doing that you will add some usefullness to the class in regards to tanking, and actually increase light armor sorcs survivability abit more (maybe when ever you cast a damage shield gain minor evasion for 3/5 seconds? nothing to big but could be a small benefit and synergize with ward).

[*] Hardened Ward / Empowered Ward
Very nice skill. Was powerful in 1.5, still is powerful with 1.6 and will be now used outside of Cyrodiil.
The Empowered ward does not appeal me. In fact, the purpose of the skill is survivability, and for that Hardened ward is the superior morph. I would rather see the pet buff merged with the Daedric prey morph and replace Empowered with some stamina or tanking utility.

Wouldn't mind a stamina version as I do enjoy my sorc when they are a stamina build. But I think throwing more and more damage onto one ability (daedric prey) could potentially cause our summons to start hitting to hard without much in the way for micromanagement. Right now I view the summon build as a test of micromanaging buffs/ debuffs / dots on the opponent.

[*] Passive : Deadric protection
Heatlh recovery? Seriously? This stat is so useless in this game that it makes the passive null.

I am actually curious how this might play out later on in some tanking builds. I think the original design was to synergize with out other heals, this + blood magic + surge allows for generally more healing without actually casting healing spells. Down fall of this passive, the base health regen in general is considerably low that you need to stack health regen to get any bang for the buck. Wouldn't mind if it was changed, but we will lose health over time (which with some builds might notice it with the new drinks, this passive would give ~120 health every 2 seconds with a drink active).

[*] Negate
Took a hard nerf with Update 6. Not sure what modifications would bring it back to an appropriate state. However its cost is currently too high for its effect.

one of my main problems is that I feel that absorption field is just to redundant now with the buff system. Most players in high end content will already have the buffs (except for major expedition) because they will be drinking crafted potions. I haven't tested the minor erosion they added to suppression field, if it applies to all players in the field this could be good if mage heavy groups ever come to light. Also add more boss with devistating add spawn.

[*] Crystal Fragments / Crystal Blast
...Blast morph is still unused and could be reworked to add in the fields were Sorcs are lacking.
[*] Encase
The skill is in a better state than it previously was in 1.5. However, its use is clunky due to its cone shape and might need a bit of work in that area.

I think these both can see more use by altering aspects of encounters already. Right now massive trash pulls appear to be dps like crazy and heal / damage mitigate to survive. If they had melee enemies punish more for being in close range (work together to spike down one target / increase damage) an encase would then see more use and combined with a descent hitting aoe range skill this could have use in specific cases. This game does not support CC in pve well... mobs don't punish enough as we can all block / dodge.

[*] Rune Prison
Seriously ? What are we supposed to do with that skill ? Never used it, never will unless totally reworked.

Similar to encase, if mobs that can be cced were more danagerous this could be useful. A sorc literally could rotate this with encase on a single melee mobs and spam liquid lightning/ thundering presence/ daedric mines/velocious curse / lightning staff heavy attack and never break the CC while killing a mob safely (rune cage) but their is no need really for this in the game atm (could be devistating in pvp if they got rid of the cast time as same could be done to players).

[*] Daedric Mines
Situational skill as it is used as an area denial in PvP. Could be nice to see a morph useful for PvE. Also, it should detonate on charging enemies.

I think they just need to change the immunity for this skill to a damage reduction per mine that hits after first one. This would still get rid of the amazing burst that could be achieved against big boss', but give more use to the skill in pve. This is the most damaging skill in the game per cast, so I can see why they would want to limit the damage potential per time, but as is, it is basically a very expensive close range force pulse... that might have some usefullness in rare circumstances.

[*] Passive : Exploitation
Big nerf with update 6. Grants anecdotical utility to the class. I would rather see it grant Major Prophecy buff to the Sorc only for 10s. It would allow Sorcs to drop Inner Light and in the process help with the "too many toggles" syndrome.

With these group buff passives they did basically take out a passive for us and templars while adding onto the NB and DK. A little love here would be appreciated. I am fine with it not being major prophecy tho, how they have classes designed, sorc / NB get the power skills, DK/Templars get the crit ones.

[*] Endless Fury / Mage's Wrath
Sorcerer's execute. The skill is okay. It biggest advantage is that you can precast it and therefore adds to the burst potential of the class.
As previously stated in multiple other threads, a nice modification would be to see Endless fury cost decrease for each subsequent cast and Mage's wrath damage increase for each subsequent cast as well. A stacking mecanism would allow that and was already described before.

I think the math I did showed this in line with the other major executes... I would have to double check that tho, been a little while sense I compared .

[/quote][*] Thundering presence / Boundless storm
Good modifications introduced with Update 6. The skill is now nice and balanced when considering cost vs effects.[/quote] personally would like one of the versions to be stamina based, but that is just a personal wish.

[*] Surge
Used to be a class defining skill. Now it only is an Entropy/Rally ersatz. Something needs to be modified here, and not only on the healing section of the spell.

power surge is where I think we should throw minor mending, this would give us more sustained heals compared to DK's burst heals they can achieve. Have the buff last as long as power surge and I think we will have our place as a healer then (+expert mage passive). I personally would like to see the choice between entropy/rally and surge not be 100 % to surge, give each skill different uses (templars would grab mage light for healing, and their class version for damage for example).

[*] Passive : Capacitator
Quite nice. Useless for stamina builds.

definitely not useless, but definitely not all to useful... just wonder why we get 10% while NB's get 30 % for stamina.... think that is remnant of the time stamina needed help and never got changed.

[*] Passive : Energized
Okayish passive as it is quite a niche one. Would rather see an 8% increase to lightning damages from all sources.

For pvp I wouldn't mind it also adding an increase chance to apply concussion. Would also be helpful in pve for trash pulls ( and boss' that can be concussed. although force pulse spam limits that, would prefer if force pulse didn't apply all status effects for this reason, should be based on staff /endminirant).

[*] Passive : Expert Mage
Nice passive even if a tiny bit low. 3% would have been better balanced imho. As usual, useless for stamina builds.

the flexability of any of the sorc class abilities working for this I think constitutes the 2 % looking at mage guild / the crit for NB's, they lack the flexibility of choosing any skill in their class to gain their benefit (for NB's).

That turned out longer then I expected sorry for the long write up.