why are siege engines doing half damage (or worse) relative to 1.5 ???

Hypertionb14_ESO · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Siege damage was increased but not to the extent that it one shots non-veteran players or players who have not put a lot of points in health picks while wearing light/no armor.

We are aware of the damage feeling lesser than it did prior to 1.6. and monitoring siege vs. players in all armor types along with the champion resists/bonuses.

it honestly should be able to one shot people under the right circumstances... you are not lobbing pillows, your tossing around boulders that weight several tons with enough kinetic force to flatten a person.

here is another idea... that is probably much easier to implement and quite lazy.

make it always a flat % of the affected targets health... like 50-80% or so..

then you can have your silly equality between the guy with less than 10khp and the guy with 60k hp

Lord_Bidr · March 2015

Tintinabula wrote: »

"We wanted to make sure that you know..ppl playing in vet areas who maybe should be in non vet areas..or ppl who pour all their points into damage rather than health..can you know..not die and get away with it."

seriously?...what?..

This line of reasoning from ZOS is quite frankly silly...a whole new level for them. If people want to play with fire (for example by going full light armor; by not wearing armor at all; by not using fire resistance glyph as vamps; by being a lvl 10 and going head to head against a v14; etc) then they bloody well deserve to pay the price for it.

And if the new philosophy at ZOS is to be a carebear for all these people, then I want to know when can low-level pvpers expect to no longer be worried about being 1-shot by snipes/wrecking blows? Or by any other attacks by v14s in purple/gold gear?

ZOS, we know you messed it up with the siege damage. Don't own up to it, we don't care anymore. But please don't ignore it. Fix it now. Thank you.

xylena · March 2015

make it always a flat % of the affected targets health... like 50-80% or so..

then you can have your silly equality between the guy with less than 10khp and the guy with 60k hp

just like slaughterfish... the mechanic is already in the game

Hypertionb14_ESO · March 2015

i would like to point out, Scatter Shot catapults have always been utterly pointless.

many months ago i was using one to launch shots at a guy who was just standing there, he tried to avoid it at first... then he realized his HEALTH REGENERATION WAS HIGHER THAN THE DAMAGE THE CATAPULT WAS CAUSING and just stood there while i contiuned to let the stupid thing slowly die as i launched rounds at him pointlessly..

there is zone chat more damaging than seige weapons in PvP.....

FENGRUSH · March 2015

I guess this is why we dont see more replies from staff regarding PvP info. Theres literally nobody at ZOS staffed to give a *** about this. PvP team hast most likely been working on imperial city over the past year and occasionally stops in to *fix* issues in cyrodil (aka removing something from game and worrying about it later).

Theres nobody there to do the job we need.

ZOS_BrianWheeler · March 2015

Light armor typically doesn't have the HP boosts that heavy/medium armor wearing players have which is why armor was mentioned there. Not all players optimize their gear/HP/STA/MAG for surviving in Cyrodiil and while new players entering the zone will have bonus stats to survive weaponry via Battle leveling, the direction to make Siege not over punishing to new players was desired. Siege mitigation changes in 1.6 were aimed at abilities that can mitigate Siege Damage and also Battle leveling stats are being investigated for a future update, and we are still looking at the damage of weapons vs. players with those changes in mind. We are aware that it's on the lighter side of the damage scale at the moment.

xylena · March 2015

powerful siege weapons allowed new players to come into cyrodiil and immediately help their faction

siege isn't just on the lighter side of the damage scale right now... it's impotent, forget organized groups with dedicated healers and purgers, siege damage can't even slow down disorganized pug zergs spamming healing springs

not only that, in 1.5 siege built ultimate, now it no longer does... i'm actually punished for using siege, as opposed to shooting my bow until i can throw a meteor that's stronger than any siege weapon

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 2015

Turelus wrote: »

Grim13 wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Siege damage was increased but not to the extent that it one shots non-veteran players or players who have not put a lot of points in health picks while wearing light/no armor.

We are aware of the damage feeling lesser than it did prior to 1.6. and monitoring siege vs. players in all armor types along with the champion resists/bonuses.

Today, EP breached the east postern at Alessia, there were 6 oil pots over the stairs, caltrops everywhere and multiple cats and ballistas aimed at the hole... the Ep zerg just ran right up the stairs, no harm no foul, and killed everyone with Meteors and Radiant Destructions.

You said that you wanted to reduce the ridiculous amount of zerging in this game. I'm not seeing it. Make siege useful, ffs.

As it stands, the balance of power during a siege is on the attackers side, never mind how much more so it is with lag, and the balance during any siege should always favor the defenders (unless they're vastly outnumbered). Otherwise, what's the point of defensive fortifications!?

Run inside and left/right, do not attack until at top of stairs (to save the rapid) then kill everyone still trying to oil.
Only a bad zerg group will lose to oil on an inner breach, I have never seen a quality TS group who know the above mechanics wipe entirely from a rush..

In 1.5 with a well defended keep no zerg could get up the stairs left or right due to the purge bug mainly. only course of action was to go across the flag

Keeps are way to easy to take currently and with the lag it is purely about bigger numbers now

c0rp · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Siege damage was increased but not to the extent that it one shots non-veteran players or players who have not put a lot of points in health picks while wearing light/no armor.

We are aware of the damage feeling lesser than it did prior to 1.6. and monitoring siege vs. players in all armor types along with the champion resists/bonuses.

Current siege is not anywhere even NEAR CAPABLE of one shotting anyone (which it should be capable of hurting someone badly that stands in the red circle). It needs to in order to fulfill its purpose.

Use one as a defensive measure and see how many people you actually kill. Its like slinging a wet noodle at people.

People can just stand in the circle and take it OVER and OVER and OVER....c'mon man..

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 2015

@ZOS_BrianWheeler thanks for the follow up

good to have a discussion rather than just single posts ^^

I think players playing an MMO adapt quite quickly to the concept of 'Move out of the red circle' especially when they are killed with the red circle. its actually good training for players to see powerful siege - as it makes them want to use it themselves.

For example if they are feeling underpowered because of being low level it can empower them by giving them a choice to make to help the alliance.

It feels good to be able to support my group when im lower level by placing an oil above a breach whilst they fight at it for example. especially when those kills start coming in however now with
a) the lag making siege placing almost impossible and
b) the little damage siege does

there is almost no point in trying to place siege.
back when purge was bugged meatbags were very overpowered and gave to a real 'fear' of anti siege. tactics had to be developed to deal with it etc was interesting. Now that purge is back the only dangerous thing in cyro is the lag.

Control of the 'top' of the keep was very important during 1.5, in 1.6 its just about bodies on the flags that is all.

I would suggest in every weekly patch you try different sieging values to see what feels right (same with battle level). Start high, see how gameplay develops, lower it the next week etc..

Xsorus · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Light armor typically doesn't have the HP boosts that heavy/medium armor wearing players have which is why armor was mentioned there. Not all players optimize their gear/HP/STA/MAG for surviving in Cyrodiil and while new players entering the zone will have bonus stats to survive weaponry via Battle leveling, the direction to make Siege not over punishing to new players was desired. Siege mitigation changes in 1.6 were aimed at abilities that can mitigate Siege Damage and also Battle leveling stats are being investigated for a future update, and we are still looking at the damage of weapons vs. players with those changes in mind. We are aware that it's on the lighter side of the damage scale at the moment.

Ok, ignoring the fact that i've seen multiple Sorcs with HP at my level or close to my level as a Medium Armor user...Are you forgetting they don't have to optimize their HP..Cause they have these things called shields..Which give them the same thing as HP.

You can't mitigate Siege damage...Shields don't mitigate siege damage either...There is no difference between having 20k HP and a 10k damage shield, and 30k HP when it comes to Siege Damage.

ZOS_BrianWheeler · March 2015

I'm well aware it doesn't one shot people and hasn't for quite some time.

WebBull · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Light armor typically doesn't have the HP boosts that heavy/medium armor wearing players have which is why armor was mentioned there. Not all players optimize their gear/HP/STA/MAG for surviving in Cyrodiil and while new players entering the zone will have bonus stats to survive weaponry via Battle leveling, the direction to make Siege not over punishing to new players was desired. Siege mitigation changes in 1.6 were aimed at abilities that can mitigate Siege Damage and also Battle leveling stats are being investigated for a future update, and we are still looking at the damage of weapons vs. players with those changes in mind. We are aware that it's on the lighter side of the damage scale at the moment.

The lighter side? It is laughable. Brian, everyone wants siege to do considerably more damage. It is the only real tool against zergs especially for the underdog alliances. Listen to your customers. I mean us, the one paying right now, paying for the last year. Not the level 10 newbies that are going to flood the zones under F2P. Eventually they will learn to survive or level up.

Also, can you please comment on the unplayable lag. If you were so concerned about "over punishing new players" then lag is your biggest threat. Players can get around siege, lag is the unstoppable monster that will do far more damage to the new players than the wet noodle siege currently in the game.

c0rp · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

I'm well aware it doesn't one shot people and hasn't for quite some time.

Correct. But it needs to PUNISH people who get hit by it. Currently it does not. People can stand in the red circle and take it in the face over and over again. People arent asking for it to one shot...people want it to hurt and punish people who stand directly in the "AREA OF DENIAL" and laugh at the damage.

It does not hurt, nor does it punish these people.

DHale · March 2015

Hi Brian et al., thank you so much for the clarification and I really do appreciate it. But speaking only for myself I don’t care anymore I no longer buy or use siege so thank your team for saving me/us AP. I will buy a couple of ballista to go through the keep walls but meatbags or oil lol no way. I did do what I said I would do I now do more damage with Wall of Elements and Caltrops by far. No comparison whatsoever. I do feel that players new to PVP should be focused on maximizing their stats or don’t play with the big boys that is why you have a Blackwater Campaign.
If you think they will get disillusioned getting one shotted with a meatbag when there is a red circle at the landing spot I am not sure how that compares to wrecking blow or snipe which can take half of anyone’s health in the game. One shot from either of these to two abilities no matter how well you are armored or how much health you have and that is why we now see everyone leveling 2 hander just as we did the bow months ago. The new players should be using the siege and healing ppl and that contributes to the team objectives.
The ZOS devs for PVP seem to want to make changes that the players don’t want so I am not sure where you are looking or going big picture wise. The old adage if it isn’t broke don’t fix it applies. The hours the team spends on siege damage mitigation is time and resources spent on not fixing things like lag for instance. It is an opportunity cost it is pure economics and we need you guys to get new long term players into this game and fix things that have been in the game since launch as the opportunity to get (our game) great reviews is within your reach on March 17 and when it goes to console in May.
That said, in PVP players used to be scared to enter defended keeps as they knew if the oil hit them or a meatbag hit them they could die in seconds if everything was not timed to the millisecond. They would hesitate and stand outside run around and generally not come in now that threat is reduced... almost eliminated after the 1.6 update.
I no longer fear counter siege but still fear snipe from the archers on top of the keeps. Please remember these “new players” you spoke of will be in and out and gone in a few months and on to the next game I just resubbed for 90 days this week. I have been here almost a year and plan to be here another year and I really don’t want to PVE. The people that will decide that is you and the devs not me. It really is not the lighter side of damage its worthless and not worth spending AP to do less damage than what I can do with any ability I run on my bar. Please consider that we want this game to be fun and impactful and for ESO to succeed and grow and mature into a game where in 10 years people go what is WOW?

AD Templar, VR 14 with 72 CP, weee (cause I pvp)

Pecivilis · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Siege damage was increased but not to the extent that it one shots non-veteran players or players who have not put a lot of points in health picks while wearing light/no armor.

We are aware of the damage feeling lesser than it did prior to 1.6. and monitoring siege vs. players in all armor types along with the champion resists/bonuses.

The fact is that even as a Vampire, with not many points into health, (around 21k in cryo / 24k with emp buff), and full light armor I can bathe in Oil as if it was soothing bath water for an extended period of time. Same goes with a shot from a fire ballista. In 1.5 if you were hit by counter-siege, you knew it right away and got the hell out of dodge or died.

Even meat bags are doing exponentially less damage compared to before.

As of this moment defending a keep with siege is null, unlike before the folk that would be assigned to counter-siege do much more damage and utility just using their normal skills, making Oils and Fire Ballista null objects there for aesthetics and something to hide behind in stead of actually doing their job.

c0rp · March 2015

All of these "NEW" players are going to need siege to be effective in the beginning anyway...that is just how its always worked. They might as well use their noob abilities as siege stands now.

NukeAllTheThings · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Light armor typically doesn't have the HP boosts that heavy/medium armor wearing players have which is why armor was mentioned there. Not all players optimize their gear/HP/STA/MAG for surviving in Cyrodiil and while new players entering the zone will have bonus stats to survive weaponry via Battle leveling, the direction to make Siege not over punishing to new players was desired. Siege mitigation changes in 1.6 were aimed at abilities that can mitigate Siege Damage and also Battle leveling stats are being investigated for a future update, and we are still looking at the damage of weapons vs. players with those changes in mind. We are aware that it's on the lighter side of the damage scale at the moment.

I appreciate the dialog even though I don't like what I hear. So in the effort to not over punish the low level guys who haven't optimized their gear & stats to survive in Cyrodiil you have essentially made a significant majority of players virtually immune to siege. Other than knocking down walls siege is virtually useless....unless you are one of those lower level guys and you just want to get some easy AP by tickling the enemy while others are killing them. Sadly, that doesn't provide much help to those doing the killing other than cluttering the opponents screen. If you really want to help those guys out you could make siege do real damage and give these lowbies an opportunity to provide more strategic value.

Of course this is just one man's opinion. You guys are going to do what you do and the decisions and consequences lie in your hands

Grim13 · March 2015

Tintinabula wrote: »

all i can say is I am happy to be able to say that I remember when PvP was fun..before it was gutted..before FCs were abused..back when oils actually killed people..all worthless things now. The Devs went from these things being abused to not worth spending ap on.

One of the most telling things about this company's approach to PvP is the fact that they removed the forward camps instead of banning the players who were troll camping... .

roflmmfao

Darlgon · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

I'm well aware it doesn't one shot people and hasn't for quite some time.

Just to add. Last night, we were seiging a keep. I was standing in my light armor heal build on my ballista shooting the inner taking repeated direct hits from a defending fire ballista and never went below 80 health. I was gonna hop off the seige and heal if I went under 60. That never happened. One shot.. LOLZ.

And yeah, this is a different keep than the one above.

Xendyn · March 2015

I play the entire game, PVE And PVP, mostly light armor wearing to boot and even I feel the carebear, PC attitude has no place in PVPland.

Lower level toons have Blackwater to play in. Anyone else from VR1 to 10 or so learns pretty quickly (or should) to stay back and range targets from behind the higher level players or use seige to do the damage. If they're not smart enough to do that, it's on Them, not you.

Now you've actually taken one of those options Away by making seige so puny. Hand holding isn't going to help keep PVP alive.

As others have said, seige damage Should be huge. Boulders, Fireballs, Flaming Bolts, Nasty hunks of Disease-ridden meat should Hurt.

ZOS, you're over-thinking things and making it more complicated than it needs to be.

vortexman11 · March 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

They should revert that bloody change that made that snaring catapult basically be purgeble...Back before they did that if you stacked up people would pelt you with it and Meat Catapult and you were usually boned.

I actually liked that they made the snare from Oil Catapults able to be purged. This gave some use to Ice Trebs as the snare they give still isn't able to be taken off by purge if anyone has noticed.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · March 2015

You could quadruple the current damage of siege and it would still be weak. I don't think you guys get it lol. Light armor is a CHOICE, health is a CHOICE, mages can blink out of the HUGE red circles very easy to avoid.

FENGRUSH · March 2015

I know Gina just presents the notes, this is probably fed in by the PvP team so..

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Siege weaponry damage has been scaled in coordination with player health changes from the Champion System

"Scaled" - more accurately stated as "scaled incorrectly". Whatever value you want to use for stats being boosted, siege damage used a fraction of that value.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Siege damage will no longer be mitigated by armor.

Never mitigated by armor and still isnt - PvP team doesnt know what theyre talking about here.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Increased the damage done by siege weapons against players by 10%.

Increased it by 10% after scaling it incorrectly to put siege damage at a grand total of less damage %.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Siege damage was increased but not to the extent that it one shots non-veteran players or players who have not put a lot of points in health picks while wearing light/no armor.

We are aware of the damage feeling lesser than it did prior to 1.6. and monitoring siege vs. players in all armor types along with the champion resists/bonuses.

Again, siege damage not increased. It cant even 1 shot naked people nor would it matter what armor they have.

Not sure what damage difference youre monitoring with the champion system resists/bonuses because none of them apply to siege damage or max health.

We dont need the concrete numbers, but anyone can see whats being reported in those responses is inaccurate and misleading. These facts dont bode well for the future of PVPland. Seems like very little has changed since fengrush last played this game.

GorraShatan · March 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

I'm well aware it doesn't one shot people and hasn't for quite some time.

Trouble is right now it only tickles the stronger players.

NadiusMaximus · March 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I know Gina just presents the notes, this is probably fed in by the PvP team so..

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Siege weaponry damage has been scaled in coordination with player health changes from the Champion System

"Scaled" - more accurately stated as "scaled incorrectly". Whatever value you want to use for stats being boosted, siege damage used a fraction of that value.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Siege damage will no longer be mitigated by armor.

Never mitigated by armor and still isnt - PvP team doesnt know what theyre talking about here.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Increased the damage done by siege weapons against players by 10%.

Increased it by 10% after scaling it incorrectly to put siege damage at a grand total of less damage %.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Siege damage was increased but not to the extent that it one shots non-veteran players or players who have not put a lot of points in health picks while wearing light/no armor.

We are aware of the damage feeling lesser than it did prior to 1.6. and monitoring siege vs. players in all armor types along with the champion resists/bonuses.

Again, siege damage not increased. It cant even 1 shot naked people nor would it matter what armor they have.

Not sure what damage difference youre monitoring with the champion system resists/bonuses because none of them apply to siege damage or max health.

We dont need the concrete numbers, but anyone can see whats being reported in those responses is inaccurate and misleading. These facts dont bode well for the future of PVPland. Seems like very little has changed since fengrush last played this game.

I've asked many times if they use the same version of the game in house to base the fixes and changes on. Read these quotes above and you really want to ask if there Are using a different version of the game. It would explain the patches introducing errors while everything worked fine in the shop.
If I were ZOS I'd be checking to make sure all three versions of the game are exact copies of each other, the one on the developers computer =pts=live,

Tripwyr · March 2015

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I know Gina just presents the notes, this is probably fed in by the PvP team so..

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Siege weaponry damage has been scaled in coordination with player health changes from the Champion System

"Scaled" - more accurately stated as "scaled incorrectly". Whatever value you want to use for stats being boosted, siege damage used a fraction of that value.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Siege damage will no longer be mitigated by armor.

Never mitigated by armor and still isnt - PvP team doesnt know what theyre talking about here.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Increased the damage done by siege weapons against players by 10%.

Increased it by 10% after scaling it incorrectly to put siege damage at a grand total of less damage %.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Siege damage was increased but not to the extent that it one shots non-veteran players or players who have not put a lot of points in health picks while wearing light/no armor.

We are aware of the damage feeling lesser than it did prior to 1.6. and monitoring siege vs. players in all armor types along with the champion resists/bonuses.

Again, siege damage not increased. It cant even 1 shot naked people nor would it matter what armor they have.

Not sure what damage difference youre monitoring with the champion system resists/bonuses because none of them apply to siege damage or max health.

We dont need the concrete numbers, but anyone can see whats being reported in those responses is inaccurate and misleading. These facts dont bode well for the future of PVPland. Seems like very little has changed since fengrush last played this game.

I've asked many times if they use the same version of the game in house to base the fixes and changes on. Read these quotes above and you really want to ask if there Are using a different version of the game. It would explain the patches introducing errors while everything worked fine in the shop.
If I were ZOS I'd be checking to make sure all three versions of the game are exact copies of each other, the one on the developers computer =pts=live,

When they make a change to an internal build, it is noted as a change in the patch notes. If a change was made to fix something which wasn't intended in the first place, you will get a "change" noted in the patch notes which isn't actually changed from live.

For example, they change something with siege causing it to unintentionally be reduced by armor. They then notice this, fix it, and note it as a "new change" on the most recent build. These changes are then aggregated into an official release set of patch notes with the "new change" included, even though it is not actually a new change.

xylena · March 2015

@ZOS_BrianWheeler since insta-killing newer players is a significant enough concern to feel the need to lower siege damage, are you guys going to look into stealth and bow mechanics in pvp? it's obscenely easy to snipe animation cancel kill an unprepared player in the blink of an eye, and that doesn't even require further stealth buffs like free stuns and the decision to have camo hunter proc on humans...

Mantic0r3 · March 2015

wow after reading this thread I really wish siege weapons would oneshot people, oh the following threads would be SOOOOO hillarious!

vortexman11 · March 2015

Mantic0r3 wrote: »

wow after reading this thread I really wish siege weapons would oneshot people, oh the following threads would be SOOOOO hillarious!

I know right.... Even though realistically that is how it should work, I think it should simply be scaled up to work how it did before. A Fire treb could usually two shot someone if they didn't heal or purge, a fire ballista could usually 3-4 shot someone.