Solution to Population Imbalance

Goldie · February 2015

@ZOS_BrianWheeler An easy solution to appease the masses would be to add AP bonuses to outnumbered factions based upon the differences in population. If one certain faction has full or maximum population, and the other has only low population, add a x3 bonus to the underdog factions AP gains.

Let me break it down to illustrate my idea.
In this scenario we are in a Cyrodiil campaign and;

Say EP has Maximum Population (Pop Locked).

1. If AD or DC has low population add a x3 multiplier to AP gains.
2. If AD or DC has medium population add a x2 multiplier to AP gains.
3. When populations equal out, reduce said factions multiplier bonus back to x1 (or normal AP gains)

These bonuses could be scaled down, as I am using x1, x2, and x3 as examples.

I think that this conciliatory solution would appease those who feel that population imbalances in any given campaign are "ruining" PvP play, and placate most issues concerning PvP population.

“An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.”
― Winston S. Churchill

Etaniel · February 2015

I would agree with a solution of that type, but not make multipliers as high as x2 or x3, maybe x1.25 and x1.5 instead, we don't want people to fly up ranks suddenly because of low pop, when others have spent countless days playing to get where they are at now. Also, i wouldn't apply the bonus straight away when population drops, maybe after an hour, when the imbalance has been going on for a while

Goldie · February 2015

Etaniel wrote: »

I would agree with a solution of that type, but not make multipliers as high as x2 or x3, maybe x1.25 and x1.5 instead, we don't want people to fly up ranks suddenly because of low pop, when others have spent countless days playing to get where they are at now. Also, i wouldn't apply the bonus straight away when population drops, maybe after an hour, when the imbalance has been going on for a while

You make a good point, of course the idea is totally hypothetical and would have to be tested and retested to assure that it is a viable solution to the issue. I have read countless forum posts about how the population imbalances are "ruining" PvP play, and I for one, think this game is worth saving!

k2blader · February 2015

Worthy idea! I don't see why there'd need to be much/any delay in applying the bonus. A 1/2/3 bar disadvantage is a disadvantage (though it would still be nice to see Zeni's actual number ranges/thresholds). If people are gonna tell their friends, "Hey, come to ___ campaign, we have low pop bonus," that in itself will help move things back towards equilibrium.

Also, Churchill quote, so awesome. :-)

WRX · February 2015

I play DC for that.

WraithAzraiel · February 2015

Or just get rid of all the frivolous extra campaigns. Along with buffs counting outside of Cyrodiil.

Boom, 2 campaigns.

1 Vet
1 NonVet

Both 30 days. GIANT SERVERS, MASSIVE PIECES OF HARDWARE RUNNING THEM.

No more campaign hopping, no more faction hopping, no more buff servers, no more whining about buff server "liberation", no more long queue's (because beefy hardware and software or daisy-chained old servers) no more population imbalances. Because it'll likely be near pop-locked across all factions at any point of the day. All day. Every day.

Just action - pure, beautiful, simple and never-ending.

Roechacca · February 2015

Make PVP mission XP triple too

AriBoh · February 2015

Wouldn't a large chunk of people just move campaigns once they aren't getting the bonus anymore? just chasing the AP. And since the people that are left will be bored having one sided fights they'll move campaigns. Which causes the first group to move again. A vicious cycle.

Talcyndl · February 2015

Come 1.6 it will be all about Champion Point accumulation. If people get the inspiration (or whatever it's called) bonus (where you get Champion Points MUCH faster) for fighting in the underdog alliances, that alone will do a lot to create population balance.

Goldie · February 2015

Talcyndl wrote: »

Come 1.6 it will be all about Champion Point accumulation. If people get the inspiration (or whatever it's called) bonus (where you get Champion Points MUCH faster) for fighting in the underdog alliances, that alone will do a lot to create population balance.

Im pretty sure what is meant by the 10% inspiration, is that a player will gain more knowledge from deconstructing items. ie. deconstructing swords for heavy armor skills gives inspiration.

ZOS_BrianWheeler · February 2015

Currently there is a 10% XP and AP bonus to the underpopulated alliances and another 10% for underdog (underscoring) alliances in campaigns. We don't have the capability currently of scaling those based on 2nd and 3rd underpopulated/underscored at this time however.

Sile · February 2015

Top level PvPers in RvR generally prefer fighting on the Underdog, but on ESO rerolling is a big step, particularly due to PvP ranks.

Maybe something to alleviate this, such as making them account wide?

tinythinker · February 2015

There are also potential helps (not sure anything is going to be a decisive or lasting solution) in

-bonuses to wall/guard strength for low pop factions,

-having domination penalties for controlling lots of enemy strongholds (such as weaker walls and guards at those strongholds to reflect resources being stretched thin),

-and resistance at captured enemy strongholds that start/increase the longer a faction holds them (weak spots/breaches in walls from sabotage, NPC patrol guards turning up dead/not respawning, nightblade-like NPCs popping up stealthed by the roads near the stronghold), etc.

Roechacca · February 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Currently there is a 10% XP and AP bonus to the underpopulated alliances and another 10% for underdog (underscoring) alliances in campaigns. We don't have the capability currently of scaling those based on 2nd and 3rd underpopulated/underscored at this time however.

When did this start ?

tinythinker · February 2015

Sile wrote: »

Top level PvPers in RvR generally prefer fighting on the Underdog, but on ESO rerolling is a big step, particularly due to PvP ranks.

Maybe something to alleviate this, such as making them account wide?

That takes away the challenge of a new character and gives unfair advantages to otherwise lower-level characters who suddenly have instant access to passives like Combat Frenzy because the same account has a higher level alt.

If someone thinks they are a top level PvP player, and if they like challenges such as being an underdog, they should have no problem showing their metal with a new Recruit ranked character. Nothing is stopping them from using their play-experience, build knowledge, and practiced AP farming techniques for rapidly ranking up again.

Junipus · February 2015

darkknightfkb16_ESO wrote: »

Wouldn't a large chunk of people just move campaigns once they aren't getting the bonus anymore? just chasing the AP. And since the people that are left will be bored having one sided fights they'll move campaigns. Which causes the first group to move again. A vicious cycle.

This.

Pop imbalances are either something beyond the control of anyone (large groups playing at different times for example) or random players in an under-populated faction on a campaign desert to one more balanced, leaving only the organised but outnumbered groups on and resulting in a buff server.

Adding XP and AP bonuses won't do much difference when players are too outnumbered to kill anyone

tinythinker · February 2015

Oh, and I'm sure this has problems too, but I know Mr. Wheeler said that they were looking at capping the pops to match the lowest faction, but that it wasn't practical because if a faction (*cough* DC) only had 12 people then all factions could only have 12 people.

What if it was "most populous faction is limited to X% more than the average of the two lowest factions"? So if we made X=50 just to toss out a number, the most populous faction would be restricted 150% of the average number of players in the other two factions.

Two lowest factions have 100 and 150 players, or 125 average.

Highest pop allowed for most populous faction capped at 188 players.

If we switched to X=100, 200% of the average of the two lowest pops, then that means the most populous faction in capped at 250 players versus 100 and 125.

At X=150, or 250% of the average of the two lowest pop factions, then that means the most populous faction is capped at 313 players versus 100 and 125.

I can't say what is most balanced while still giving due advantage to having a higher pop and also avoiding keeping a campaign underpopulated, but there are some numbers to consider.

ZOS_BrianWheeler · February 2015

@roechacca‌ Since the game launched.

Roechacca · February 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@roechacca‌ Since the game launched.

Oh . I did not know . The low Population bonus thing rarely shows up and someone posted it doesn't always work .

Now I'm wondering why it's been so hard to level in PVP if we've had that bonus all this time . 90% of my game time here has been PVP and on DC . I had to leave PVP recently because leveling was taking too long to get to 14 . Any chance you can raise it to a higher bonus or see if the low pop calculators working ?

ZOS_BrianWheeler · February 2015

We've had discussions about raising the XP gains in Cyrodiil across the board but I'll also get the QA gang to double check the XP/AP boost.

Roechacca · February 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We've had discussions about raising the XP gains in Cyrodiil across the board but I'll also get the QA gang to double check the XP/AP boost.

Thanks Man . That would help a ton .

technohic · February 2015

What about limited time "events" where there is a quest to change faction of a character, only from the highest population to the lowest population for a limited time. You can cut it off when the numbers even out and flip it to go different ways if any faction then becomes the new lowest pop.

It would be hard for guilds to coordinate to get everyone over, but I am not sure they would want to move everyone, and there are the one offs that can migrate.

booksmcread · February 2015

The problem is the low population bonus doesn't work very well. Since it takes into effect a rolling population sample over a few days, the three bars (and sometimes pop-lock, sans queue) that DC gets on Thornblade in the evenings cancels out any bonus the people on in the late-night, morning, or early afternoon time periods would get despite being one bar against a three bar or pop-locked opponent.

And lets face it, a ten percent bonus really isn't anything, especially when you are facing numbers four times your own. It would need to be at least 30 percent to really mean anything.

Draxys · February 2015

This wouldn't fix anything about population imbalances, since no one wants to log in everyday to a map that's been (at least mostly) PvDoored. Outside of primetime, red wipe the map with sheer numbers wherever they go and it's poison to the game.

Jaxsun · February 2015

There's too many campaigns.

SoulScream · February 2015

There can't be less camps with alts and the lock out system. People have trouble with how few there are now and of course more camps just makes more emp trading.

I would love to see pvp exp increased. Cyro also needs help in other areas like selecting a scroll quest. It makes me rage when I get offered the same incorrect one over and over. Why not auto offer cap keep or rss when you're close to it and it bursts.

Change some things up, IDK make a Wabba camp with faction areas changed or something. How about home keeps intermixed. Special camps would be fun!

thelordoffelines · February 2015

To help population imbalances implement this rule

If you have a v14 character of any alliance, all dc characters you make will have the option to be boosted to v14 automatically.

well I think this would help.

Eucken · February 2015

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Currently there is a 10% XP and AP bonus to the underpopulated alliances and another 10% for underdog (underscoring) alliances in campaigns. We don't have the capability currently of scaling those based on 2nd and 3rd underpopulated/underscored at this time however.

I don't think this one is widely known, could also be a communications problem

Draxys · February 2015

@ZOS_BrianWheeler even though lots of people somehow don't know about underdog bonuses, those will not help the health of pvp. Nobody wants to wake up to red map every single day. They follow people whever they go and cap it when pops are low. It's tiresome and annoying, even if they do get their crap pushed in during primetime. Please consider ways to deter them from doing this.

*them being certain players, not every red is guilty of this

Talcyndl · February 2015

Goldie wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

Come 1.6 it will be all about Champion Point accumulation. If people get the inspiration (or whatever it's called) bonus (where you get Champion Points MUCH faster) for fighting in the underdog alliances, that alone will do a lot to create population balance.

Im pretty sure what is meant by the 10% inspiration, is that a player will gain more knowledge from deconstructing items. ie. deconstructing swords for heavy armor skills gives inspiration.

Sorry, the proper term is Enlightenment.

From the Update 6 Guide:

ENLIGHTENMENT

To help you earn Champion Points, we’ve introduced a new mechanic called Enlightenment to the game. Over time, your account will accrue Enlightenment. You do not have to be logged in to accrue Enlightenment.

As you participate in activities that grant experience to your Veteran Rank character, Enlightenment provides you with a bonus to Champion Point progression, helping you earn points faster. Eventually, you may run out of Enlightenment, but don’t worry—more Enlightenment is added to your account every 24 hours.

Activities that grant experience include questing, killing enemies, fighting in Cyrodiil, exploring dungeons and delves, and facing Trials and the Dragonstar Arena.

Enlightenment should accrue faster (become automatic?) when fighting for an underdog alliance.

Goldie · February 2015

What if you made the bonuses encounter specific based upon the size of the groups involved?