An Open Letter to ZOS from a very concerned Templar

nagarjunna

Dear ZoS

It is with some concern that I write to you about the recent Thieves Guild DLC and the proposed changes to the Templar class. I love the class and this game however I believe the Templar community is completely ignorant as to what your intentions for this class are and so I am posting a problem statement in an effort to clear the air.

Problem
In repeated updates and patches the Templar class has been adjusted and tweaked in an apparent effort to make the class better in-game. This is all well and good however the community is at a loss as to whether these changes have any value without an end-goal in mind. In the last ESO Live stream some hints where dropped that there was such a goal - however there was no clear statement of a vision for the class and how it is to proceed.

Issue

Without a clear statement of what ZOS's vision of the Templar class is, the community is confused, angry and frustrated as we attempt to suggest ways forward in order to improve the class's performance. Without this vision statement, of course, most suggestions may and probably are very wide of the mark!

This lack of a vision statement is driving many in the Templar community to drop their class and do something different, either in-game or going to another game completely. As Templar's leave or change class, this in turn leads to pressure on the other classes and of course frustration with the game, which in turn drives other people to leave. These people leaving the game means a loss of income and a decrease in your EBITDA (Earnings before Tax, Depreciation and Amortization) which I do not believe is a situation you would like or condone!

Resolution

ZOS needs to post a clear vision of what their vision of the Templar is, along with a road-map of the proposed changes to achieve that goal!

Once those two things are done, I believe that many in the community would rally round and suggest ways to go forward. This quite ridiculous situation needs to be resolved and speedily! It's in your hands to resolve this and provide reassurance to the community and of course ensure that people stay with the game and drive your profits up!

Please help us by publishing the vision and a road-map!

Thank you.

AlnilamE

Question

Have you played your Templar on the PTS?

nagarjunna

Yes and that is not the point.

There has been considerable feedback in this thread:

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245184/official-feedback-thread-for-templars#latest

Along with a pile of other of which there are too many to mention!

Whether you (or I, come to that) agree or disagree with the feedback that has been provided over the past 2 years is irrelevant. The feedback, both positive and negative, has been routinely ignored - that is a fact! This suggests that it is not in accord with ZOS's vision of the Templar. I am requesting that ZOS publish their vision to clarify and assist us so we can provide feedback that is pertinent and constructive.

Zheg

Woe-bull gave us a pretty clear indication of his vision for the class during the last ESO Live; the problem is, that vision is in no way feasible in the current meta, and a clear majority of players do not want the vision for the class that he's aiming for.

timidobserver

nagarjunna wrote: »

Yes and that is not the point.

There has been considerable feedback in this thread:

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245184/official-feedback-thread-for-templars#latest

Along with a pile of other of which there are too many to mention!

Whether you (or I, come to that) agree or disagree with the feedback that has been provided over the past 2 years is irrelevant. The feedback, both positive and negative, has been routinely ignored - that is a fact! This suggests that it is not in accord with ZOS's vision of the Templar. I am requesting that ZOS publish their vision to clarify and assist us so we can provide feedback that is pertinent and constructive.

In the latest ESO live Eric Wrobel gave his vision of the Templar class pretty clearly. I don't really agree with anything he said, but his vision for the class is pretty clear.

kirk_lewis_ESO

Hate blizzard all you want but they play their own game. Leeroy Jenkins, bless his soul sucked to heavens though.

GreenGhostMan

timidobserver wrote: »

In the latest ESO live Eric Wrobel gave his vision of the Templar class pretty clearly. I don't really agree with anything he said, but his vision for the class is pretty clear.

What did Eric Wrobel say was his vision for the Templar class?

david.haypreub18_ESO

GreenGhostMan wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

In the latest ESO live Eric Wrobel gave his vision of the Templar class pretty clearly. I don't really agree with anything he said, but his vision for the class is pretty clear.

What did Eric Wrobel say was his vision for the Templar class?

He said it was a kind of stand your ground, punish people for coming into your house kind of class.

The problem is, that is in no way what the class is right now. Unlike Sorcs (mines) and DKs (Scales, Talons), the Templar has few to no ways of controlling ground or punishing people who come into their house. Eric's idea of the class has no relation to the way the class actually plays right now.

The worst part about it is, Eric doesn't seem to be aware of this fact.

nagarjunna

Yeah, he did say a kind-of sorta thing. However what I have not seen is this vision being communicated in any clear fashion.

I'd really like to have a clear statement of intent and an indication of some sort of plan and timeline.

pecheckler

You can't redesign a class' playstyle after players have 1,000+ hours invested 22 months after the game launches. That goes for both templar healing & mobility, as well as nightblade cloak. Fundamental abilities that define how a class is played just can't be changed! It's going to make a large amount of players quit, whether it be quit playing their class or quit playing the game.

Soriana

My main in game is a tank; I remember the thread most of the active tanks were responding to concerning the stam regen change made it to 45 pages or so. The stam regen change still went live, is still that way, and ZOS has showed no sign of changing it any time soon.

Although I appreciate the changes they are making to Templar's are not what you want, I'd suggest finding ways to adapt. If history shows us anything with ZOS, they may read these threads, but they aren't changing anything because of them.

FullBlownBeast

Data mined testing phase tidbits for Dark Brotherhood DLC.

Sharkano

They regularly, and spastically, change everything here willy-nilly. Welcome to the ZOS psycho ward . . . .

nagarjunna

Soriana wrote: »

My main in game is a tank; I remember the thread most of the active tanks were responding to concerning the stam regen change made it to 45 pages or so. The stam regen change still went live, is still that way, and ZOS has showed no sign of changing it any time soon.

Although I appreciate the changes they are making to Templar's are not what you want, I'd suggest finding ways to adapt. If history shows us anything with ZOS, they may read these threads, but they aren't changing anything because of them.

I do take your point, however the thing here is that Templars have been providing feedback and it has become apparent that the feedback is very wide of the mark! I am just politely requesting we get a vision statement to lessen the intense frustration and so we can provide good feedback in a productive manner!

At the end of the day, I'd like to see something positive from ZOS to make me change my mind, and to encourage me to resub, and come out of retirement with my Templar. Unsubbing has directly hit their bottom line - I've had nothing from them to change my mind, and I felt it was a good thing to give them a chance to change it.

Wolfenbelle

I've played a Templar from the first day the game went live during pre-launch in 2014. Except for a brief period after ZOS gave the class an execute, the Templar has always been the weakest DPS/DD class. I've maxed every weapon line on my Templar except sword and board. I've done magicka builds and stamina builds, and maxed all the class skills. I tried being a dedicated healer, tried range DPS, and melee DPS.

Templar can be a good tank due to its excellent self sustain, but the tank role is limited in ESO. Templar can be a good healer, of course, but ZOS seems to want to limit Templar healing so that the other classes' healing can be nearly on par with Templar. And there is absolutely nothing that puts the Templar on a par with the other classes for DPS/DD.

I've found a happy medium for my Templar doing mostly solo PvE at my pace and with my two favorite weapons, the bow and dual wield with a stamina DPS/DD oriented build. But this means my Templar will never be very good at PvP or intense group-oriented content.

Ffastyl

Whenever I make suggestions for game balance or features, I try to create something the Devs may do based on what is currently ingame. I attempt to piece together their vision for something from what has already been implemented. Actually receiving their vision will allow myself and others like me to focus our suggestions.

Templar is my first class, with over 2800 hours logged. I prefer to play a self sustaining warrior; "prepared for any situation" is the mantra I live by. I don't care for large damage numbers, high heals or flashy skills-- I want enough defense and recovery to survive anything and enough offense to kill anything, albeit slowly. With the way Blazing Shield and Blinding Light performed in the past, coupled with Heavy Armor, Willow's Path and weapon skills, I had largely that. I could handle melee opponents adequately but I lacked the mobility to counter kiting enemies. As Templar stands now, defensively crippled, I have turned to other classes for the same playstyle.

If the Devs' vision for Templar will not allow my favored playstyle to return then I can finally move on, taking my memories with me to another class. As long as that vision has to be pieced together from ingame evidence, I will continue to live in Limbo, ever desiring a well rounded warrior but never sure it will come.

nagarjunna

Thank you, @Ffastyl, someone else who understands my simple request!

jhharvest

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

GreenGhostMan wrote: »

What did Eric Wrobel say was his vision for the Templar class?

He said it was a kind of stand your ground, punish people for coming into your house kind of class.

The problem is, that is in no way what the class is right now. Unlike Sorcs (mines) and DKs (Scales, Talons), the Templar has few to no ways of controlling ground or punishing people who come into their house. Eric's idea of the class has no relation to the way the class actually plays right now.

The worst part about it is, Eric doesn't seem to be aware of this fact.

Yeah, I mean, this kind of a playstyle sounds pretty cool but there's just absolutely no way you could do that as a templar. With all of the complaining about BoL healing too hard, actually templars don't have enough healing to stand their ground. They'd need a really efficient regen so you can keep the offensive up - BoL spam doesn't punish anyone, all it does is guarantee that you'll die 10 seconds later instead of right now.

What skills templars would need to "stand your ground":
Enemies entering purifying ritual take a dot, maybe proc burning light every second or something.
Negate to remove hostile ground based AOEs.
Player based reflect to replace Eclipse.
Stronger damage shield or that STRONG regen mentioned earlier.

Something like that and templars could become those gun enthusiasts who shoot people entering their property that Wrobel envisions. You want to change a class to fit your vision? Alright, give us the tools to play the class like you think we should play it, don't just break our existing ***.

Reverb

Zeni's vision is for everybody to be playing a nightblade or sorcerer.

Artjuh90

Reverb wrote: »

Zeni's vision is for everybody to be playing a nightblade dragonknight or sorcerer.

corrected that for you

nagarjunna

Therein lies the problem... no one knows what the vision is.

I'd like ZOS to communicate on this and tell us what the templar is and how they want to achieve that goal.

nagarjunna

Hmmm...

I wonder if Robert Altman knows what is happening and whether his company is losing customers as a result of the decisions being taken by his employees?

@Wrobel really needs to respond and publish something as I am seeing increasing numbers of players giving up as a direct result of those same decisions and lack of direction from those in charge.

nagarjunna

No doubt I will be banned for saying that!

Tandor

Just what we needed, another thread about templars !

nagarjunna

Tandor wrote: »

Just what we needed, another thread about templars !

Lol - Very fashionable tho'.

dodgehopper_ESO

pecheckler wrote: »

You can't redesign a class' playstyle after players have 1,000+ hours invested 22 months after the game launches. That goes for both templar healing & mobility, as well as nightblade cloak. Fundamental abilities that define how a class is played just can't be changed! It's going to make a large amount of players quit, whether it be quit playing their class or quit playing the game.

That's a nice platitude, except for the fact that my Templar build has had to change multiple times and in a fundamental way because of MAJOR sweeping rules changes that include the complete rewrite of skills as well as major changes to core underlying mechanics (like the issue of cc immunity which harmed Templars most of all, or the shift to 0% regen while blocking, the removal of blinding flashes, the complete nerfing of blazing shield). These major changes nullify what you have just said, because they have already done this multiple times.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

You can't redesign a class' playstyle after players have 1,000+ hours invested 22 months after the game launches. That goes for both templar healing & mobility, as well as nightblade cloak. Fundamental abilities that define how a class is played just can't be changed! It's going to make a large amount of players quit, whether it be quit playing their class or quit playing the game.

That's a nice platitude, except for the fact that my Templar build has had to change multiple times and in a fundamental way because of MAJOR sweeping rules changes that include the complete rewrite of skills as well as major changes to core underlying mechanics (like the issue of cc immunity which harmed Templars most of all, or the shift to 0% regen while blocking, the removal of blinding flashes, the complete nerfing of blazing shield). These major changes nullify what you have just said, because they have already done this multiple times.

It may nullify some of it. And some of it may be a tad, the sky is falling, But not all of it. Changing fundamental abilities that define how a class works does cause people to quit. I have no way of knowing how many, but you would be silly to think there aren't people that quit over large fundamental changes to a character they have a lot invested in.

dodgehopper_ESO

Ffastyl wrote: »

Whenever I make suggestions for game balance or features, I try to create something the Devs may do based on what is currently ingame. I attempt to piece together their vision for something from what has already been implemented. Actually receiving their vision will allow myself and others like me to focus our suggestions.

Templar is my first class, with over 2800 hours logged. I prefer to play a self sustaining warrior; "prepared for any situation" is the mantra I live by. I don't care for large damage numbers, high heals or flashy skills-- I want enough defense and recovery to survive anything and enough offense to kill anything, albeit slowly. With the way Blazing Shield and Blinding Light performed in the past, coupled with Heavy Armor, Willow's Path and weapon skills, I had largely that. I could handle melee opponents adequately but I lacked the mobility to counter kiting enemies. As Templar stands now, defensively crippled, I have turned to other classes for the same playstyle.

If the Devs' vision for Templar will not allow my favored playstyle to return then I can finally move on, taking my memories with me to another class. As long as that vision has to be pieced together from ingame evidence, I will continue to live in Limbo, ever desiring a well rounded warrior but never sure it will come.

Wow, you're in the same boat with your Templar as I am with mine.

sekou_trayvond

Well, never in my life did I think this forum capable of using EBITDA in a post, so hat tip for that.

As for Mr. Wrobel's vision for the class, meh. To me the class is designed for flexibility, whether it be in the moment or as an end game strategy. It has elements of what he mentioned (blazing shield comes to mind) but the class doesn't feel like that overall, IMO.

I dunno...I play 3 templars- stamplar, magicka tank and magicka dps/heals. I'm happy with all and the proposed changes aren't chafing me but I suppose YMMV.

nagarjunna

sekou_trayvond wrote: »

Well, never in my life did I think this forum capable of using EBITDA in a post, so hat tip for that.

- Thank you, and money seems to get a lot of people's attention and the fact that I am seeing plenty of people retiring/unsubbing from the game is cause for concern! I'd really like a response from them!

Plenty of feedback (both positive and negative) has been provided by lots of people, all has been ignored! I thought maybe a different approach might work.

dodgehopper_ESO

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

You can't redesign a class' playstyle after players have 1,000+ hours invested 22 months after the game launches. That goes for both templar healing & mobility, as well as nightblade cloak. Fundamental abilities that define how a class is played just can't be changed! It's going to make a large amount of players quit, whether it be quit playing their class or quit playing the game.

That's a nice platitude, except for the fact that my Templar build has had to change multiple times and in a fundamental way because of MAJOR sweeping rules changes that include the complete rewrite of skills as well as major changes to core underlying mechanics (like the issue of cc immunity which harmed Templars most of all, or the shift to 0% regen while blocking, the removal of blinding flashes, the complete nerfing of blazing shield). These major changes nullify what you have just said, because they have already done this multiple times.

It may nullify some of it. And some of it may be a tad, the sky is falling, But not all of it. Changing fundamental abilities that define how a class works does cause people to quit. I have no way of knowing how many, but you would be silly to think there aren't people that quit over large fundamental changes to a character they have a lot invested in.

That's the point I'm making though. I have 'put up' with the changes, but I've been growing increasingly angry about the changes made to my class (but I am a patient person). Their inability to move the class back toward it was and should be, is where a lot of people are growing angry. Failure to adjust the class, particularly in light of @Wrobel saying Templar should control its ground with no toolset whatsoever to do so, is a prime reason why the class does need work. No one is going to be 100% happy, the problem is that more and more Templars are growing dissatisfied because almost every build is now being harshly effected by poor design changes (both to Templars and the game in general). Perhaps we are saying the same thing, I am not sure. The point I'm making is that the damage was already done to the class. Leaving the class be at this point would be a major mistake on their part.