Cumulative cost on AoEs.

Sarousse

Thoughts on this ? Cumulative cost on Steel Tornado/Pulsar/any instant AoE.

This would help a lot against the lag that is making the game unplayable in Cyrodiil.

@Zos Devs, any chance that you consider doing it "soon" ? Or shall we lag in Cyrodiil forever ?

BuggeX

hmm this would make sens actually

Gerardopg

This will kill aoe in pve

Sarousse

Then they could activate the rule only in Cyrodiil.

lolo_01b16_ESO

In my opinion removing aoe caps would be much better for it. As long as you get damage mitigation for standing in one spot with more than 6 players, people won't spread out and therefore lag will presist.
Furthermore I fear that zergs will grow bigger with your proposition as they will need more people to archieve the required amout of steel tornados per second to feel save.

BuggeX

there is just one way to stop zerging, make magicka Detonation a instant kill if more than 12 Targets are in the area.

ToRelax

Where do you draw the line then? Is Proximity Detonation instant? Is Lotus Fan AoE? Does Streak really need another nerf?
And wich kinds of spells would be effected? Instant damage, healing, buffs, debuffs, purges, AoE DoTs?
And finally, would this really be good for the game? If it's AoE spam that creates the lag, then it may help with lag - but doesn't it also increase the numbers advantage yet again since you can not even out damage output by using AoEs?

myrrrorb14_ESO

Increasing cost for any spammed skill gets my vote. At least rotate another skill in or something.

Alcast

What would help is remove AOE Caps, NOT add more lag.

Svidrir

Good,+1 and find solution for multiple bomb, (immune after 1 knock take ?)

myrrrorb14_ESO

Wouldnt removing caps add more lag though? Potentially you could damage 30 people or more.

Didnt we start with no caps? Was a long time ago and dont clearly recall.

I think friensly fire would go a long way ti spreading people out

Zinaroth

Or you know they could completely remove AoE caps and make everyone take full damage, then there wouldn't have to be so many calculation on the server side and smaller groups would have an easier time fighting groups that outnumber them.

SkylarkAU

Zinaroth wrote: »

Or you know they could completely remove AoE caps and make everyone take full damage, then there wouldn't have to be so many calculation on the server side and smaller groups would have an easier time fighting groups that outnumber them.

When 1 player (me) can streak in to your large group and drop 200k damage in under 10 seconds, I wonder if you'll still think it's a good idea

Now imagine 4 players doing the same thing only now its multiplied out to 800k damage and there's nothing you can do about it.. People would be back on the forums in 24 hours begging for AoE caps to be put in - as they have in the past.

Docmandu

Bad idea.. and you're also assuming that that is the cause of lag.

Safety from zerg balling is something that should be removed (ie. large AoE purge, Barrier, spells that make stacked balls able to mitigate massive amount of damage).

On in some games with strong AoE, you REALLY don't want to hug eachother as you'll all be insta gibbed (ie. DAoC). In ESO, just trade Barriers and have 1 person spam Purge.. voila.. you're now close to invulnerable if you stay stacked.

danno8

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

Wouldnt removing caps add more lag though? Potentially you could damage 30 people or more.

Didnt we start with no caps? Was a long time ago and dont clearly recall.

I think friensly fire would go a long way ti spreading people out

Currently you can damage up to 60 people. But subsequent targets simply take less damage. If they removed this calculation, presumably it would be less work for the server as it is simply:
(1)gather who is in the area and
(2) damage + mitigation,

instead of
(1) gather targets 1-6 get 100% damage
(2) damage +mitigations
(3) gather targets 6-30 get 50% damage
(4) damage + mitigations
(5) gather targets 31-60 get 25% damage
(6) damage + mitigations

danno8

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Or you know they could completely remove AoE caps and make everyone take full damage, then there wouldn't have to be so many calculation on the server side and smaller groups would have an easier time fighting groups that outnumber them.

When 1 player (me) can streak in to your large group and drop 200k damage in under 10 seconds, I wonder if you'll still think it's a good idea

Now imagine 4 players doing the same thing only now its multiplied out to 800k damage and there's nothing you can do about it.. People would be back on the forums in 24 hours begging for AoE caps to be put in - as they have in the past.

But that would be why they would spread out.

edit: You are correct though that people would be crying on the forums, but people always cry on the forums. Then they eventually adapt.

I think it's worth a test at least. In fact they should throw it up on the test server.

Zavus

More calculations would just add more lag, it'd be easier to fix it by removing the cap. They really screwed up when they up the upped the cap and reduced the damage the more you hit, if anything it just put more strain on the server.

prootch

cap removing has been the initial situation: with aoe zerg stacking in 10 square m... laging as hell.
Making sure that aoe cannot be spammed by increasing the cost seems the most efficient: it will make aoe *** globally less efficient than monotargets.

SkylarkAU

danno8 wrote: »

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Or you know they could completely remove AoE caps and make everyone take full damage, then there wouldn't have to be so many calculation on the server side and smaller groups would have an easier time fighting groups that outnumber them.

When 1 player (me) can streak in to your large group and drop 200k damage in under 10 seconds, I wonder if you'll still think it's a good idea

Now imagine 4 players doing the same thing only now its multiplied out to 800k damage and there's nothing you can do about it.. People would be back on the forums in 24 hours begging for AoE caps to be put in - as they have in the past.

But that would be why they would spread out.

edit: You are correct though that people would be crying on the forums, but people always cry on the forums. Then they eventually adapt.

I think it's worth a test at least. In fact they should throw it up on the test server.

In certain circumstances they would spread out for sure, but not so much in the sewers, on an outer breach, other natural choke points or pretty much anywhere inside a keep.. these are the primary points of contention in a pvp battle - players are grouped up in these places because they kind of have to be.

Don't get me wrong, I think the way it is now is unbalanced.. I did exactly what I described above today several times and killed exactly zero players and it was pretty sucky for me. But if I solo wiped 4, 5, 7 or 8+ players it would've seemed just as unfair and sucky to them too.

I don't know why it has to be all about manipulating player behaviour to make them spread out or nerfing abilities to improve game performance anyway, it's not the players fault - game performance was just fine up until patch 1.2.4.

Erondil

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Or you know they could completely remove AoE caps and make everyone take full damage, then there wouldn't have to be so many calculation on the server side and smaller groups would have an easier time fighting groups that outnumber them.

When 1 player (me) can streak in to your large group and drop 200k damage in under 10 seconds, I wonder if you'll still think it's a good idea

Now imagine 4 players doing the same thing only now its multiplied out to 800k damage and there's nothing you can do about it.. People would be back on the forums in 24 hours begging for AoE caps to be put in - as they have in the past.

Considering the average streak damage is 3k or so in pvp, lets say you got lucky with crits so 4k average damages... 200k is 50 people, good luck to hit that many targets with 1 streak, and if you do, then they deserve to die (eventhough in this case they wont, you need 5 streaks to kill all and ppl have the time to heal up/kill you before you do 5 streaks lol).
Not to mention that a group of 50 ppl will have mmh at least 8 healers, and healign springs spam on 50 people is what? 500k HPS? yeah good luck to kill that with your little streak and new ult generation system man.
At the time uncapped streak was OP because it was generating enough ultimate to do streak>negate>streak>negate>streak>negate etcetc. In 2.1 uncapped aoes won't do much really for a solo player, but it will make a huge difference for a group of 8-12 facing 24-48 man raids, thats for sure.

prootch wrote: »

cap removing has been the initial situation: with aoe zerg stacking in 10 square m... laging as hell.
Making sure that aoe cannot be spammed by increasing the cost seems the most efficient: it will make aoe *** globally less efficient than monotargets.

No the raids running around turtling and spamming aoes with a lot people wont care, they have orbs and templars using spear/repentance to keep their ressources pool full. At worse they can still easily rotate 2 aoes (steel tornado/drain power; sap essence/impulse etc) and it will incent them to stack even more people (even more dmg mitigation from aoe cap and more dmg without sacrificies needed for sustain).
Also AoEs should be better than single target if you face stacked players IMO, otherwise there is no point keeping them in a game and it will destroy outnumbered pvp even more. The issue is that currently people are more rewarded for stacking up than punished, because of?.. aoe cap.

PBpsy

This idea is so terrible that I am afraid they might actually consider it.

asneakybanana

This would encourage zerging making the lag worse. The best thing they can do for the lag is adding back in ground oils and anti zerg mechanics like frag shields and blockade.

Birdovic

I vote for Steeltornado getting a %cost increase everytime it is used within 2.5sec/X seconds (like Streak/Dodge Roll), that ability is just over the top anyway, I mean come on, a spammable AoE high dmg skill with big radius and Execute? Stop lying to yourself, this needs to be adjusted.

Also Impulse and Elemental Blockade should get a buff, they're just awful when compared(and even if not compared, still awful).

Joy_Division

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Or you know they could completely remove AoE caps and make everyone take full damage, then there wouldn't have to be so many calculation on the server side and smaller groups would have an easier time fighting groups that outnumber them.

When 1 player (me) can streak in to your large group and drop 200k damage in under 10 seconds, I wonder if you'll still think it's a good idea

Now imagine 4 players doing the same thing only now its multiplied out to 800k damage and there's nothing you can do about it.. People would be back on the forums in 24 hours begging for AoE caps to be put in - as they have in the past.

No, that's what makes it a good idea.

Besides, my large group has enough barrier, purges, healers, and steel tornado spammers to deal with one streaking sorcerer.

Emma_Overload

So you guys want to nerf the last decent grinding skill left in a game that is all about grinding? Killing Impulse wasn't enough for you?

NO.

Ayantir

Why grind when you're all CP capped ? SteelTornado is too much for grinding, use a worse skill

tangy.citrus

The lag is caused by your graphics card. Zos shouldnt punish everyone else with a computer built for gaming to appeal to the casuals on yet another whiny topic.

hrothbern

danno8 wrote: »

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

Wouldnt removing caps add more lag though? Potentially you could damage 30 people or more.

Didnt we start with no caps? Was a long time ago and dont clearly recall.

I think friensly fire would go a long way ti spreading people out

Currently you can damage up to 60 people. But subsequent targets simply take less damage. If they removed this calculation, presumably it would be less work for the server as it is simply:
(1)gather who is in the area and
(2) damage + mitigation,

instead of
(1) gather targets 1-6 get 100% damage
(2) damage +mitigations
(3) gather targets 6-30 get 50% damage
(4) damage + mitigations
(5) gather targets 31-60 get 25% damage
(6) damage + mitigations

It is not only the calculation time. The calculation time of the comment above is a time cost linear with the number of players around a certain player. Calculating the distance of each player to each other player is again linear per player (just a table with indexed coordinates) but exponential to calculate for all players.

The real issue is to "gather" target Nr x to Nr y: the real issue is sorting the player's distance to a certain player: It is the sorting time !!!!!!!!
sorting is EXTREMELY time intensive for a computer program.
If no pre-information is available, the "bad" case, the time is exponential to the number of relevant players (players within target distance)

So roughly, without pre-information... with n players... you need to make n squared lists. And per list you need n squared sorting steps. Amounting to n cubed.
So with 5 players 5x5x5=125 steps. With 30 players 30x30x30=27.000 steps. That is a factor 216 for longer calculation time === lag !!!
(and yes... I know that the last position of all players of the previous calculation will help to reduce some of the sorting time.... but that is still "a drop in the ocean")


and if this is too mathematical for you: just get you a deck of cards and sort 5 cards and then a full 52 cards deck.

Conclusion: The current damage reduction was in view of lag reduction a bad idea and should be changed.


Edited addition:
Two elegant programming ways to "sort" this situation could be to introduce a miss chance or a damage reduction as function of relative distance. Relative distance defined as "actual distance divided by max distance of an ability"
For example: at 80% relative distance 20% miss chance & at 120% relative distance 100% miss chance.
Both act as a direct cut off for computer calculation time. The program needs only two look up tables. That is super fast !!!

and yes... that will not stop the zergs.... but zergs are, I think, NOT a bad thing as such.... are also fun
it is the lag caused by zergs, that needs to be tackled !!!

coolermh

Just make bumping into friendly players cause damage to yourself...lol. Kill yourself by running into your teammates to often.

Karamis_Vimardon

coolermh wrote: »

Just make bumping into friendly players cause damage to yourself...lol. Kill yourself by running into your teammates to often.

Player collision? That would be rather...interesting.

Good luck getting into a keep

SkylarkAU

Erondil wrote: »

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Or you know they could completely remove AoE caps and make everyone take full damage, then there wouldn't have to be so many calculation on the server side and smaller groups would have an easier time fighting groups that outnumber them.

When 1 player (me) can streak in to your large group and drop 200k damage in under 10 seconds, I wonder if you'll still think it's a good idea

Now imagine 4 players doing the same thing only now its multiplied out to 800k damage and there's nothing you can do about it.. People would be back on the forums in 24 hours begging for AoE caps to be put in - as they have in the past.

Considering the average streak damage is 3k or so in pvp, lets say you got lucky with crits so 4k average damages... 200k is 50 people, good luck to hit that many targets with 1 streak, and if you do, then they deserve to die (eventhough in this case they wont, you need 5 streaks to kill all and ppl have the time to heal up/kill you before you do 5 streaks lol).
Not to mention that a group of 50 ppl will have mmh at least 8 healers, and healign springs spam on 50 people is what? 500k HPS? yeah good luck to kill that with your little streak and new ult generation system man.
At the time uncapped streak was OP because it was generating enough ultimate to do streak>negate>streak>negate>streak>negate etcetc. In 2.1 uncapped aoes won't do much really for a solo player, but it will make a huge difference for a group of 8-12 facing 24-48 man raids, thats for sure.

Streak is just to get in to the guts of the group, then it's something like impulse, ulti, proxi det, streak, streak, impulse, single target stuff.. etc

Joy_Division wrote: »

SkylarkAU wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Or you know they could completely remove AoE caps and make everyone take full damage, then there wouldn't have to be so many calculation on the server side and smaller groups would have an easier time fighting groups that outnumber them.

When 1 player (me) can streak in to your large group and drop 200k damage in under 10 seconds, I wonder if you'll still think it's a good idea

Now imagine 4 players doing the same thing only now its multiplied out to 800k damage and there's nothing you can do about it.. People would be back on the forums in 24 hours begging for AoE caps to be put in - as they have in the past.

No, that's what makes it a good idea.

Besides, my large group has enough barrier, purges, healers, and steel tornado spammers to deal with one streaking sorcerer.