Any monster in OLD VR15/VR16 should drop VR15/VR16 gear - FAIR and EQUAL access to decon gear

Rinmaethodain

Access to VR15 and VR16 decon gear should be FAIR for all players, no matter if they run OLD dungeons or two new IC dungeons. Two changes proposed by ZOS greatly disturb this creating inequality in game.
1st change is the way VR15 and VR16 gear will be obtained in OLD dungeons scaled up to VR16.
2nd is the number of materials that can be obtained from VR15/VR16 gear.

1. The mechanics of gear drops in dungeons
Current situation:
Current situation gives equal access to deconstruction materials for all players running any dungeons or killing monsters. The system is pretty simple and works this way: In dungeons any monster will have chance to drop common white/green deconstruction gear. The lvl of gear will be equal to scale of dungeon. Current max dungeon lvl is VR12 and gear will drop up to lvl VR12

Future ZOS plan:
All old and new dungeons will scale up to new max lvl, VR16.
If any dungeon is scaled up to VR14, every monster in dungeon will have chance to drop a common white/green deconstruction gear still giving equal access to crafting materials for any player running dungeon.
But, if OLD dungeon is scaled to VR15 and VR16 only bosses and minibosses will have chance to drop VR15/VR16 gear. And its not going to be any special set (because per ZOS itemisation in IC topic, there wont be old dungeon sets in VR15/VR16, sets like ebony, worm cult, etc...), im talking only about generic white/green deconstruction gear.
If new dungeon will be scaled up to VR15 or VR16, suddenly again every monster will have chance to drop VR15/VR16 gear.

2. The number of crafting materials extracted from VR15/VR16 gear.
Current situation:
Any gear from VR1 to VR14 have chance to drop from 3 to 4 items at deconstruction.

Future ZOS plan:
Any VR15/VR16 gear is rigged to drop not more than only one single piece of crafting material.

My opinion:
I find this unfair and unjustified. The current mechanics provides equal access to deconstruction gear and crafting materials. No matter what dungeon player runs, he will have chance at fair number of decon gear. The number of gear combined with number of crafting materials provides fair chance to obtain crafting materials for purpose of gear crafting.

I find planned mechanic to be harmful. It in just theory it provides the ways to obtain VR15/VR16 materials outside of IC.
In practice, anyone who does not have IC and run newest dungeons have a little to no way to obtain VR15/VR16 crafting materials.
The only actual way to obtain VR15/VR16 crafting materials is being left in IC in the form of actual IC content or two new dungeons contained in paid DLC.
Some people might call that P2W (you buy DLC you have exclusive access to crafting materials and monopoly on them, you control the market and can buy anything, the form of 'winning'), im not gonna go that far, and so far just call it "unfair".

The "only minibosses and bosses in OLD dungeons have chance to drop VR15/VR16 deconstruction gear" limits number of gear per run to 1 to 6 pieces at max (because minibosses/bosses have CHANCE to drop gear, but they also have chance to drop 5 gold, a worm, empty gem or nothing, which is very common and im sure everyone have been in that situation).
Not to mention, that "favourising" new dungeons will make people want to run only and only those dungeons, leaving all OLD dungeons deserted in worst case scenario.

Proposition?
A simple, if its not broken and works currently in any VR1-VR12 dungeon, then dont fix it.
Any OLD dungeon should utilise currently existing fair mechanism of obtaining VR15/VR16 deconstruction gear:
1st. If any OLD dungeon is scaled up to VR16 then any monster should have chance to drop VR15/VR16 gear. Simple as that.
2nd. VR15/VR16 gear should drop same number of items upon deconstructing as current VR1-VR14 gear.

Common reasons why people would speak up against my proposition:
- They find crafting to be "too easy" and "too fast" - The fact that VR16 gear needs up to 150 materials for single piece already make crafting VR16 gear "not easy and not fast". My suggestion is only about equal access to VR15/VR16 gear just as it works with VR12 gear and will work the same way up to VR14 gear;

- They want it to remain exclusive to DLC - I see no point arguing with people who use this argument, because the only reason i see, why they would use this argument and be fine with that, is because apparently they want to obtain monopoly on those materials and have exclusive access to them and achieve great personal gains;

- They think that only bosses and minibosses dropping VR15/VR16 gear in old dungeons still gives good way to obtain materials - those people probably didnt read my post and didnt run too much dungeons. Otherwise they would notice that an old dungeon can have from 3 to 8 bosses/minibosses total. Each have only a chance to drop a VR15/VR16 gear. This can conclude with 4 pieces of gear on average per run which equals 4 crafting materials. 4/15, 4/150, not even a single piece of equipment;

Thank you for attention.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_AlanG @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Enodoc @Attorneyatlawl @Balabù @MissBizz @KhajitFurTrader @Ynehairte @randolphbenoit @Calad @Nestor @Nebthet78

ps. This topic i only about the fact that ZOS plans to limit VR15/VR16 gear drops in old dungeons only to bosses and minibosses, where in new DLC only dungeons it will drop from every monster, as well as when any dungeon will be scaled up to VR14, then still every monster will drop VR15/VR16 gear. Please dont discuss for example, the number of materials required for VR16 gear.

Sources:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/199489/itemization-for-the-imperial-city-dlc-base-game-patch
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2079540/#Comment_2079540

Halke

*lurks*

Tavore1138

I agree that this is not fun but if they make VR15/16 stuff as available as existing stuff then they wouldn't be able to 'encourage' us all to buy the content - it's an obvious commercial decision and I doubt very much it will be changed.

It's the shame of B2P and the move away from subs that future design will be influenced by the need to gate content behind the paywall (which is why PvE sets are put in TV based loot crates and crafting mats are only buyable with TV loot and obtainable at decent rates from IC content.)

Personally I even have found drop rates of VR15/16 items from sewer trash to be non-existent so even at that level they are trying to force you down very specific paths rather than following the 'play as you want' philosophy that drew many of us to the game.

Apologies if you feel I have strayed too far OT but I think the reasons why we will not see much VR15/16 loot outside IC are very much driven by these commercial concerns.

Nestor

From the way this sounds, I will have no desire to even start chasing the new materials much less make the gear. Even the grind that is Dwemer is reasonable compared to this.

And, even if I would ever get to the point where I can make VR15 gear, I for sure am never going to make VR16 gear, nor buy it from a crafter.

This is really a sad state to be so demotivated about something new in the game. Shame as I was looking forward to Glass as that is all my previous TES characters ever wore.

Dagoth_Rac

What do the non-bosses in old, scaled up VR15/16 dungeons drop? VR14 gear? Or nothing?

What do the non-bosses in new VR15/16 dungeons drop? VR15/16 gear? VR14 gear? Or nothing?

I think a concern with this becomes the gold cost of running VR15/16 dungeons. With all the new dungeon set gear being Bind On Pickup and cannot be sold for gold, if the regular mobs do not drop vendor trash that you can at least sell for gold, running dungeons will always leave you poorer than when you went in. Repair costs are supposed to keep inflation in check, not drive you into bankruptcy!

cjthibs

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I agree that this is not fun but if they make VR15/16 stuff as available as existing stuff then they wouldn't be able to 'encourage' us all to buy the content - it's an obvious commercial decision and I doubt very much it will be changed.

It's the shame of B2P and the move away from subs that future design will be influenced by the need to gate content behind the paywall (which is why PvE sets are put in TV based loot crates and crafting mats are only buyable with TV loot and obtainable at decent rates from IC content.)

Personally I even have found drop rates of VR15/16 items from sewer trash to be non-existent so even at that level they are trying to force you down very specific paths rather than following the 'play as you want' philosophy that drew many of us to the game.

Apologies if you feel I have strayed too far OT but I think the reasons why we will not see much VR15/16 loot outside IC are very much driven by these commercial concerns.

Exactly.
This is the consequence of whining enough to convince a developer to embrace B2P/F2P.

If you advocated for the removal of the subscription, you are to blame.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Uh so I assume you missed the part were ZoS said ALL DUNGEONS including old ones such as Elden Hallow Fungle Grotto and so on can and will scale to vr 15 and 16 and will drop gear of the level. So you can get gear from OLD.

cjthibs

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Uh so I assume you missed the part were ZoS said ALL DUNGEONS including old ones such as Elden Hallow Fungle Grotto and so on can and will scale to vr 15 and 16 and will drop gear of the level. So you can get gear from OLD.

Citation please?

Nebthet78

OP:

I have been making this same argument over here on this thread for the last week and have actually proven my points with direct quotes from this forum by ZOS members and their official site:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/203740/keep-pvp-out-of-the-sewers#latest

At this point I am thinking I am being trolled over there because they cannot come up with any real argument as to why ZOS shouldn't be putting the drops in the old dungeons other than the fact they want the mat advancement gated behind the Imperial City DLC to force more players into PVP. They do not seem to realize there is a base game update and then the actual DLC, they see it as one thing and one thing only.

They are so misinformed regarding how the Imperial City Base game upgrade works with the rest of the game. They think gaining the mats from the bosses and minibosses is a feasable way to gain the mats. They don't see that it takes 100 times more effort for PVE players to gain the same number of mats they can in Imperial City because of that mechanic.

They often seem to confuse a PVE player's want/need for mats as a want for the new PVP dropped sets and that is not the case and they don't seem to be able to distinguish between the two.

Or perhaps I should say, they do not care.

They have it stuck in their heads the issue is PVE vs PVP and "lalalala la I'm not listening" when you try to explain it isn't.

Had ZOS updated the base game outside of the Imperial City update and made equal opportunities to gain the new mats, there would not be an issue.

But ZOS didn't do that. They are trying to put the new mats behind a pay wall, while trying to "look squirrel!" players so they don't realize this is what is happening.

I have stated before that I am not going to buy Imperial City as it stands right now. There is no incentive for me to do so. I do not like PVP and I do not like the grind that the new mat system is, especially with the addition of ZOS trying to force me into a zone I want nothing to do with, just to gain a better drop rate to deconstruct armor from the 2 new dungeons. And I don't like the "business" decisions that have been made by ZOS in relation to this DLC and what it means for the future of this game.

This is what has a lot of PVE players upset. Not the fact IC is a PVP zone. The fact ZOS is gating gear progression behind it in a very sneaky, underhanded and unfair manner.

Nebthet78

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Uh so I assume you missed the part were ZoS said ALL DUNGEONS including old ones such as Elden Hallow Fungle Grotto and so on can and will scale to vr 15 and 16 and will drop gear of the level. So you can get gear from OLD.

He (not the OP) may have missed it initially, but I informed him in another post just what you are telling him now with a supporting quote from Gina, and another quote showing this isn't what is happening.

This guy just doesn't want to accept it and thinks we are all misinformed. Don't even bother starting to try to explain your argument to him you will just repeat yourself like a broken record. I put him on ignore so I cannot see any of his posts any more because of the silliness.

cjthibs

Typing a bunch of words that don't actually prove your points doesn't count as proving your points.

And as far as no one being able to explain why the mats won't be available outside of the Imperial City Dungeons/Districts...welp, I did that in the thread you linked. Any perks associated with the Imperial City DLC won't be made available for free because ZOS is relying on the revenue of selling their DLC...it's not so hard to understand. Which also means they will be -inside- the DLC zones.

She put me on ignore because she couldn't handle the fact that I proved she is just wrong on most of her posts...effective arguing I guess, since she claimed victory.

Rinmaethodain

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Uh so I assume you missed the part were ZoS said ALL DUNGEONS including old ones such as Elden Hallow Fungle Grotto and so on can and will scale to vr 15 and 16 and will drop gear of the level. So you can get gear from OLD.

ONLY bosses and minibosses in old dungeons will drop VR15/VR16 gear resulting in tops 6 pieces of decon gear per run. I did not miss this fact. Its written in my opening post.
At the same time the inequality comes out when we look at the fact that in two new DLC dungeons any monster will drop VR15/VR16 gear.
And at the same time any old dungeon will drop gear up to lvl VR14. Only VR15/VR16 in old dungeons is included in the "rarity" package.

Rinmaethodain

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

What do the non-bosses in old, scaled up VR15/16 dungeons drop? VR14 gear? Or nothing?

What do the non-bosses in new VR15/16 dungeons drop? VR15/16 gear? VR14 gear? Or nothing?

I think a concern with this becomes the gold cost of running VR15/16 dungeons. With all the new dungeon set gear being Bind On Pickup and cannot be sold for gold, if the regular mobs do not drop vendor trash that you can at least sell for gold, running dungeons will always leave you poorer than when you went in. Repair costs are supposed to keep inflation in check, not drive you into bankruptcy!

non-bosses in old scaled up VR15/VR16 dungeon drop VR14 regular white/green decon gear (because dungeon specific sets like Worm cult, ebon etc. are still going to be top VR12 as per ZOS Itemisation topic in developer discussion)

non-bosses (as well as bosses/minibosses, meaning any monster) in new VR15/VR16 dungeons will drop VR15/VR16 gear

Enodoc

I couldn't care less about gear, but I remain of the opinion that if a VR12 scaled mob drops VR12 decon gear, then the same mob scaled to VR16 should have a similar chance of dropping that same decon gear scaled to VR16.

Paulhewhewria

Yeah if you do the content of the appropriate level you should get gear of the appropriate level.

Beesting

All i have to say is i still dont have a 5 th piece of wormcult after 2500 hours and counless veteran dungeons

So i dont care what people will have to do to get vr 16 mats , even less so if they dont have the dlc ^^

cschwingeb14_ESO

Since the mats are decon only, the value floor of the mats will be pinned to the vendor value of the gear. People are going to be farming the crap out of IC, and VR 16 mats are going to hit that floor in no time (a week or two tops)

If you are really worried about getting VR16 mats, just farm a ton of VR 14 gear and vendor it. It'll be almost the same as farming VR 16 gear.

Contraptions

Do the bosses and minibosses in the old dungeons drop V15-16 glyphs and potions? If they don't, then the only way for an enchanter to improve their craft beyond V5-10 is hirelings, and the only way for an alchemist to improve their craft is through TV mechants, since gathering and decon is out of the equation.

Terrible, really.

ToRelax

Contraptions wrote: »

Do the bosses and minibosses in the old dungeons drop V15-16 glyphs and potions? If they don't, then the only way for an enchanter to improve their craft beyond V5-10 is hirelings, and the only way for an alchemist to improve their craft is through TV mechants, since gathering and decon is out of the equation.

Terrible, really.

You can still use anything up to V14 to train the skill lines...

Nebthet78

Contraptions wrote: »

Do the bosses and minibosses in the old dungeons drop V15-16 glyphs and potions? If they don't, then the only way for an enchanter to improve their craft beyond V5-10 is hirelings, and the only way for an alchemist to improve their craft is through TV mechants, since gathering and decon is out of the equation.

Terrible, really.

Top tier level potion creation (V15 solvents) is strictly placed behind IC DLC because it is the only place where you can find the solvent. If you don't have the DLC you are going to have to purchase the solvents for a king's ransom.

Craglorn harvesting areas will be upgraded to V10 solvents.

The only good part is that perhaps there is only a couple hundred points difference between the two potion strengths after being made and so V15 ones won't really be needed.

Glyphs have been noted to drop from the mobs in IC. Hasn't been confirmed outside of IC by the bosses or minibosses yet.

Rev Rielle

I think it's a bit odd. First and foremost as a developer you want your players to enjoy the game; if they enjoy it they keep playing. Now admittedly there are limits to anything and balance has to be achieved, but at face value these mechanics that are likely to be released certainly don't seem like they will lead to any enjoyment for anyone completing the 'old' content dungeons at rank 15/16.

New content should be delivered, advertised, and be a success or failure based of the quality of the content within it, not because it's 'less of a grind there to get new gear'. Certainly, by all means have some great equipment sets that can only be obtained by partaking/purchasing the Imperial City DLC, but to have the seemingly huge imbalance and mechanic that is present at the moment appears to be leaving more of a sour taste in players mouths than not.

I think also there's a compounding factor that the Imperial City content is seen as 'only for PvPers'. And whilst that may or may not be true, it only needs to be widely perceived that that is that case for many players not to purchase it. After all, PvP in almost every MMO is a niche part of the game, and as such that might flow on to sales. So, as a result of that (and being pessimistic), ZOS might have intentionally placed these apparent horrid future grinds in-game for non-pvpers to obtain the materials for new 15/16 gear in an effort to get them purchase and try the Imperial City DLC, something that they may not have thought of purchasing otherwise.

baratron

MaximusDargus wrote: »

[non-bosses in old scaled up VR15/VR16 dungeon drop VR14 regular white/green decon gear (because dungeon specific sets like Worm cult, ebon etc. are still going to be top VR12 as per ZOS Itemisation topic in developer discussion)

Ah, what? I was assuming we'd be getting v15/16 Adroitness sets and such like .

Well, I'm sad now.

Y'know, there are ways in which ZoS could enforce their pay-gate and still allow those of us who have paid for the Imperial City to get nice stuff outside of it.

They could make it so that only people who had bought the DLC or are subscribers could get v15/v16 items in "old" dungeons. (There is even an "ESO Plus" buff already in the game... I am not a coder, but I suspect checking for the presence of that buff would be trivial). They could make it so that v15/v16 items are all Bind on Pickup, and thus can only be used by the person who's paid for the DLC. But to not offer v15/v16 versions of the older sets at all... that's just depressing.

byrom101b16_ESO

It is precisely this kind of money grubbing cynicism that would not be out of place in a second rate FTP Korean game App.

In a so called AAA MMO of a much beloved PTP single player game series this pay gate smacks of desperation and will alienate the rest of the players of the TES series who have'nt already left.

It's the kind of crass manipulation that speaks volumes about how much the short term projection bean counters are calling the shots at ZOS...

Rinmaethodain

ZOS 1
Playerbase 0

Patch notes 2.1.1, ZOS keeps on supporting unfair distribution of materials making it DLC exclusive.

Rioht

Same old story with ESO.

Itemization hidden behind content.

Don't play the game the way you want, you have to play it the way ZoS wants or else you have no access to the gear you want.

It Should be that you can get any item set ANYWHERE. However, at a very small chance. And, if you would like to directly focus on a specific gear piece. THEN you can go to that piece of content and grind there.

Give us options please!

Merlin13KAGL

IC specific gear should be tied to IC, but mats for a VR level obtainable by the entire playerbase (translated to deconnable items) should be available at any VR15+ scaled content.

The runes (and presumably the glyphs to get access to the runes) have been stated to only be available in IC.

Same with VR15+ solvent (though in my entire duration in PTS, I did not come across a single water source)

How much you wanna bet they'll over "Mat packs" in the crown store?

baratron wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

[non-bosses in old scaled up VR15/VR16 dungeon drop VR14 regular white/green decon gear (because dungeon specific sets like Worm cult, ebon etc. are still going to be top VR12 as per ZOS Itemisation topic in developer discussion)

Ah, what? I was assuming we'd be getting v15/16 Adroitness sets and such like .

Well, I'm sad now.

Y'know, there are ways in which ZoS could enforce their pay-gate and still allow those of us who have paid for the Imperial City to get nice stuff outside of it.

They could make it so that only people who had bought the DLC or are subscribers could get v15/v16 items in "old" dungeons. (There is even an "ESO Plus" buff already in the game... I am not a coder, but I suspect checking for the presence of that buff would be trivial). They could make it so that v15/v16 items are all Bind on Pickup, and thus can only be used by the person who's paid for the DLC. But to not offer v15/v16 versions of the older sets at all... that's just depressing.

@baratron , nope...you won't even get VR14 versions. They'll still stay capped at VR12.

Makes zero sense that they increased the cap (this will be the 3rd time) but don't increase the set gear cap to match.

MCMancub

*Sits quietly in corner because he's OK with these changes*

On a more serious note, I don't think this is a problem at all. I look at this DLC as a mini-expansion. If this were WoW, no one would be crying that expansion-specific items don't drop in non-expansion areas. The only reason people do here is because it's F2P/B2P, so people interpret that to mean that once they buy the game they are entitled to all content forever, because that's the model, right?

Having read OP's concerns, I kind of feel like we're looking at this the wrong way. Right now, all dungeons scale up to V12. It seems only fair that they all scale to V15/V16, right? And if they scale to V15/V16 then the drops should be equal, right? If you can farm crafting materials from any dungeon up to V14, why should V16 be different if the dungeon is scaled up, right?

Personally, I don't feel this way. V15/V16 are "reserved" levels (in a sense) for the DLC. I'm very grateful that they were thoughtful enough to even allow players who don't purchase the DLC to level to V15/V16, much less provide a nice variety of ways to do this. They didn't have to give us anything related to V15/V16 outside of IC. That's the "expansion/DLC model". Exclusion to those who didn't purchase it. But they did. They allow players to level to V15/V16 without purchase the DLC, and they even provide methods for doing so easily without having to grind.

I don't feel like I deserve the V15/V16 crafting material outside of expansion-specific encounters just because they chose to give us a variety of ways to level. I'm OK with them restricting the crafting and gear portion to IC, because that's what IC brings.

I realize this is probably an extremely unpopular opinion here, because what I'm basically saying is that I don't deserve everything just because I want it. You can call it unequal or unfair, but is it? V15/V16 is for the Imperial City DLC. If we're following traditional MMO expansion/DLC models, everything associated with that should be behind a paywall. We're lucky non-purchasers are getting anything at all.

MaximusDargus wrote: »

ZOS 1
Playerbase 0

Patch notes 2.1.1, ZOS keeps on supporting unfair distribution of materials making it DLC exclusive.

DLC materials being made DLC exclusive (spoiler alert: they're still not exlusive; you can purchase them from other players if you don't own the DLC)? The nerve!

I like that we can look forward to a new DLC every quarter, and if the DLC's continue to sit at 2500 crowns, that's still cheaper than me getting them for free while subscribing. I'm happy the game went B2P. I believe it legitimately improved the quality of the game as well as the longevity of it.

Rinmaethodain

I guess ZOS is placing a "suck it up or quit" label on this issue?

We will see in two weeks when IC DLC + base game patch will hit live server.

Because i doubt we will have another PTS update with new tweaks.

Nebthet78

.
It just means that a large player base does not buy this DLC at all, and will wait until Orsinium is released in the new year.

In the meantime, I will just level up my alts and my sub is also stopped so no worries that way for me. Tales of Zestria comes out in October so I will have a one month break when that is released as there is nothing in ESO to keep me here.

Rinmaethodain

Patch notes 2.1.2, ZOS keeps on supporting unfair distribution of materials.

The unfair and unjustified rule of "only minibosses and bosses in old dungeons are going to drop VR15/VR16 gear" is still in PTS.

Morimizo

This is probably way too optimistic...but, could these materials be made more available when Orisinium releases? Perhaps this is only temporarily an impediment for PVE folks?

Of course, it could just get worse; VR increased to 18; new crafting materials and sets ONLY from Orsinium; PVP folks are REQUIRED to participate in new PVE-only area or pay a fortune for mats through Guild Stores...

Disturbing trend at work.