Suggestion for Crits on Damage Shields.

Zsymon

If damage shields can be crit, and no other changes are made, then damage shields become completely useless, as they'd get blown away in one hit with all the leftover damage hitting the mage unmitigated. My suggestion is to yes allow damage shields to be crit, but remove overflow damage. For example if the shield has 6000 points, and it gets hit with a 7000 point attack, the damage shield would be removed, but the overflow damage would disappear and not hit.

That way shields can be removed real quick, but at least they would still be useful. They would basically fully protect from all the damage of one single attack such as Crystal Fragments or Wrecking Blow crit.

Erock25

So if I have a 10 point damage shield and someone crits me for 10k he is in essence only doing 10 damage? No thank you. They need to just fix overflow damage being unmitigated, if it even is an issue. I haven't seen proof of this concept yet.

Rook_Master

Yeah, put this idea on the scrap heap.

Dracane

Zsymon wrote: »

If damage shields can be crit, and no other changes are made, then damage shields become completely useless, as they'd get blown away in one hit with all the leftover damage hitting the mage unmitigated. My suggestion is to yes allow damage shields to be crit, but remove overflow damage. For example if the shield has 6000 points, and it gets hit with a 7000 point attack, the damage shield would be removed, but the overflow damage would disappear and not hit.

That way shields can be removed real quick, but at least they would still be useful. They would basically fully protect from all the damage of one single attack such as Crystal Fragments or Wrecking Blow crit.

Very interesting suggestion. If they make shields critable and would only implement this change, it would be more than enough to make shields still viable, if the overflow damage just dissappear.

Tankqull

Erock25 wrote: »

So if I have a 10 point damage shield and someone crits me for 10k he is in essence only doing 10 damage? No thank you. They need to just fix overflow damage being unmitigated, if it even is an issue. I haven't seen proof of this concept yet.

full nirn heavy armor wearer on life

but i do agree his solution is horrible as it turns the overflowbug just into the opposite direction.

regarding shield:
do not make them crittable, fix healing wards 300% increasement in pvp to only efect the healing (no effect on ward ally at all) in pvp only - fix all other shield related bugs and especially fix those bugs enabling sorcs (and to some degree all other classes - multiple mundi thx to twice born star, overload+boundarmor+magic light+necropotence as some hints ) to inflate their stats
if this is done and shields are still an issue tweek them further but DO NOT tweekthem without bug fixing beforehand.

Dracane

Tankqull wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

So if I have a 10 point damage shield and someone crits me for 10k he is in essence only doing 10 damage? No thank you. They need to just fix overflow damage being unmitigated, if it even is an issue. I haven't seen proof of this concept yet.

full nirn heavy armor wearer on life

but i do agree his solution is horrible as it turns the overflowbug just into the opposite direction.

regarding shield:
do not make them crittable, fix healing wards 300% increasement in pvp to only efect the healing (no effect on ward ally at all) in pvp only - fix all other shield related bugs and especially fix those bugs enabling sorcs (and to some degree all other classes - multiple mundi thx to twice born star, overload+boundarmor+magic light+necropotence as some hints ) to inflate their stats
if this is done and shields are still an issue tweek them further but DO NOT tweekthem without bug fixing beforehand.

What's the problem with Necropotence ? It works as intended and already got nerfed.

Tankqull

Dracane wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

So if I have a 10 point damage shield and someone crits me for 10k he is in essence only doing 10 damage? No thank you. They need to just fix overflow damage being unmitigated, if it even is an issue. I haven't seen proof of this concept yet.

full nirn heavy armor wearer on life

but i do agree his solution is horrible as it turns the overflowbug just into the opposite direction.

regarding shield:
do not make them crittable, fix healing wards 300% increasement in pvp to only efect the healing (no effect on ward ally at all) in pvp only - fix all other shield related bugs and especially fix those bugs enabling sorcs (and to some degree all other classes - multiple mundi thx to twice born star, overload+boundarmor+magic light+necropotence as some hints ) to inflate their stats
if this is done and shields are still an issue tweek them further but DO NOT tweekthem without bug fixing beforehand.

What's the problem with Necropotence ? It works as intended and already got nerfed.

you can have its effect without wearing it like twice born star.

Dracane

Tankqull wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

So if I have a 10 point damage shield and someone crits me for 10k he is in essence only doing 10 damage? No thank you. They need to just fix overflow damage being unmitigated, if it even is an issue. I haven't seen proof of this concept yet.

full nirn heavy armor wearer on life

but i do agree his solution is horrible as it turns the overflowbug just into the opposite direction.

regarding shield:
do not make them crittable, fix healing wards 300% increasement in pvp to only efect the healing (no effect on ward ally at all) in pvp only - fix all other shield related bugs and especially fix those bugs enabling sorcs (and to some degree all other classes - multiple mundi thx to twice born star, overload+boundarmor+magic light+necropotence as some hints ) to inflate their stats
if this is done and shields are still an issue tweek them further but DO NOT tweekthem without bug fixing beforehand.

What's the problem with Necropotence ? It works as intended and already got nerfed.

you can have its effect without wearing it like twice born star.

Seriously ? How is that even possible ?
They need to fix that of course.

Armitas

I am just amazed that they would even consider making shields critable given the overflow problem. Truly it defies all expectations and understanding.

Baragorath

Zsymon wrote: »

If damage shields can be crit, and no other changes are made, then damage shields become completely useless

They will still give protection and not allow sorc to be tank and self healer but truly dps glass cannon which is not killing machine in 1vsX by macro spamming their shields.

Just another post of Sorcs to not show how community is satisfied with recently changes incoming to crazy shield situation.

Let shields be crit and we will see if balance is achieved.

Sorc is not blocking, not rolling so what nerf he get???? You all sorcs will scream that you can not blink and have to buy mounts and feed them??? You dont need shields you have blinking and we DKs have nothing like it and our self heal as GDB gives now 16% of missing health.

Barrier ultimate gives aprox 20k shield and cost 250 ultimate on live and sorcs have doubled strenght of shields without using any shield ultimates - you asking for too much.

Tankqull

Baragorath wrote: »

Zsymon wrote: »

If damage shields can be crit, and no other changes are made, then damage shields become completely useless

They will still give protection and not allow sorc to be tank and self healer but truly dps glass cannon which is not killing machine in 1vsX by macro spamming their shields.

Just another post of Sorcs to not show how community is satisfied with recently changes incoming to crazy shield situation.

Let shields be crit and we will see if balance is achieved.

Sorc is not blocking, not rolling so what nerf he get???? You all sorcs will scream that you can not blink and have to buy mounts and feed them??? You dont need shields you have blinking and we DKs have nothing like it and our self heal as GDB gives now 16% of missing health.

wait untill they implement that change and see it yourself on the PTS ...
make them critable destroys them effectivly in their only purpose...

HeroOfNone

A simple fix in my mind, make damage shields crit able by certain class DOTS and magical effects. This would make DKS and certain templar builds more of a hard counter to shield stacking sorcs but not make every die easily to skill spamming nightblades with high crits. DOTs would also serve to keep the fights going longer, rather than 2-5 hit kills.

vortexman11

Here's my suggestion, stop with the ****ing blanket nerfs, if hardened ward and healing ward are the problem, fix those, leave DKs and Templars alone with their tiny 4k damage sheilds.

I had to stack 45k health with 25 points in bastion just to get my igneous shield to 10k, still not as high as most sorcerers with less than half the health I needed.

If anything don't let stuff crit on Igneous and Sun Shield....

Ezareth

Fixing the overflow bug is the easiest bug in the world to fix.

Want to make shields critable? Also give them the armor and spell resistance of the wearer....then there is no more "overflow" possible.

HeroOfNone

I still see it as an issue that we have no real hard set build, skill, or set that can counter the shields. It is the defense against burst build Nightblades and some quick kill sorcs, but it almost totally negates DOT builds in general, something DKs specialize in. Now we're talking about allowing critting on a shield, something done well be the class build we're trying to counter.

So again, let's make it a positive, Class abilities that will stack DOTS and strip them off faster than install spam attacks, give folks some thinking about purging those DOTS or be made weak to more direct attacks.

Armitas

Ezareth wrote: »

Fixing the overflow bug is the easiest bug in the world to fix.

Want to make shields critable? Also give them the armor and spell resistance of the wearer....then there is no more "overflow" possible.

That would go against the current "Scorched Earth" policy of PvP balance so it's unfortunately off the table. Now if you have any suggestions that would cause prolific and unnecessary class and mechanical casualties we are willing to listen. And remember we do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us.

Rayste

Tankqull wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

So if I have a 10 point damage shield and someone crits me for 10k he is in essence only doing 10 damage? No thank you. They need to just fix overflow damage being unmitigated, if it even is an issue. I haven't seen proof of this concept yet.

full nirn heavy armor wearer on life

but i do agree his solution is horrible as it turns the overflowbug just into the opposite direction.

regarding shield:
do not make them crittable, fix healing wards 300% increasement in pvp to only efect the healing (no effect on ward ally at all) in pvp only - fix all other shield related bugs and especially fix those bugs enabling sorcs (and to some degree all other classes - multiple mundi thx to twice born star, overload+boundarmor+magic light+necropotence as some hints ) to inflate their stats
if this is done and shields are still an issue tweek them further but DO NOT tweekthem without bug fixing beforehand.

This ^ exploits are making things seem OP when they are not. They need to fix the exploits and not the symptoms.... cmon @ZOS_RichLambert, lurk this.

ZOS_RichLambert

Could have sworn I already responded to this but I can't find my post!

We have a fix in for the next PTS build that resolves an issue with Battle Spirit where the damage/healing/shield values were not being calculated properly.

We're going to test this change before making any other changes to shields.

As an aside... we also fixed the armor penetration issue with the sharpened and piercing traits.

Ezareth

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Could have sworn I already responded to this but I can't find my post!

We have a fix in for the next PTS build that resolves an issue with Battle Spirit where the damage/healing/shield values were not being calculated properly.

We're going to test this change before making any other changes to shields.

As an aside... we also fixed the armor penetration issue with the sharpened and piercing traits.

Awesome! Best news of the week!

Etharian

Zsymon wrote: »

If damage shields can be crit, and no other changes are made, then damage shields become completely useless, as they'd get blown away in one hit with all the leftover damage hitting the mage unmitigated. My suggestion is to yes allow damage shields to be crit, but remove overflow damage. For example if the shield has 6000 points, and it gets hit with a 7000 point attack, the damage shield would be removed, but the overflow damage would disappear and not hit.

That way shields can be removed real quick, but at least they would still be useful. They would basically fully protect from all the damage of one single attack such as Crystal Fragments or Wrecking Blow crit.

uhhh no lol ...

Why do you lye? shields are like 30k .. you can barely get over 10k dmg oon pts avg.. sometimes higher but no your shields cant be one shotted. dont over exaggerate

DDuke

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Could have sworn I already responded to this but I can't find my post!

We have a fix in for the next PTS build that resolves an issue with Battle Spirit where the damage/healing/shield values were not being calculated properly.

We're going to test this change before making any other changes to shields.

As an aside... we also fixed the armor penetration issue with the sharpened and piercing traits.

Have you considered leaving the shields slightly stronger, but allowing them to be crit?

The problem uncrittable shields create is that they make the whole crit stat (already less beneficial than stamina or weapon dmg) useless against certain opponents.

This leads to less build diversity and more "stack weapon dmg/stamina".

For instance, daggers are just downright bad in PvP compared to swords or maces (partly) due to this.

Ezareth

DDuke wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Could have sworn I already responded to this but I can't find my post!

We have a fix in for the next PTS build that resolves an issue with Battle Spirit where the damage/healing/shield values were not being calculated properly.

We're going to test this change before making any other changes to shields.

As an aside... we also fixed the armor penetration issue with the sharpened and piercing traits.

Have you considered leaving the shields slightly stronger, but allowing them to be crit?

The problem uncrittable shields create is that they make the whole crit stat (already less beneficial than stamina or weapon dmg) useless against certain opponents.

This leads to less build diversity and more "stack weapon dmg/stamina".

For instance, daggers are just downright bad in PvP compared to swords or maces (partly) due to this.

Personally I like the paper, scissors, rock concept that uncrittable shields introduces.

If all damage done to everyone behaves in the same way no matter what you're attacking then the game becomes a straight math calculation for what is best. Uncrittable shields means throws a monkey wrench into that kind of calculation.

And if weapon damage/stamina was the only viable build option right now everyone would be running swords instead of maces (which shows that penetration is valued over top end damage even though it is worthless on shields).

DDuke

Ezareth wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Could have sworn I already responded to this but I can't find my post!

We have a fix in for the next PTS build that resolves an issue with Battle Spirit where the damage/healing/shield values were not being calculated properly.

We're going to test this change before making any other changes to shields.

As an aside... we also fixed the armor penetration issue with the sharpened and piercing traits.

Have you considered leaving the shields slightly stronger, but allowing them to be crit?

The problem uncrittable shields create is that they make the whole crit stat (already less beneficial than stamina or weapon dmg) useless against certain opponents.

This leads to less build diversity and more "stack weapon dmg/stamina".

For instance, daggers are just downright bad in PvP compared to swords or maces (partly) due to this.

Personally I like the paper, scissors, rock concept that uncrittable shields introduces.

If all damage done to everyone behaves in the same way no matter what you're attacking then the game becomes a straight math calculation for what is best. Uncrittable shields means throws a monkey wrench into that kind of calculation.

And if weapon damage/stamina was the only viable build option right now everyone would be running swords instead of maces (which shows that penetration is valued over top end damage even though it is worthless on shields).

Well, convince me why I'd want to have any crit bonuses on my gear then, when 50%~ of players are immune to it most of the time.

It already is a math calculation, which says "dont use daggers, dont get crit bonuses".

The only reason maces are used currently is because they provide so much value (against the other 50% of players, and sorcs that dont have shield up which is a rarity) due to this bug.

After they're fixed, swords will be hands down the best choice for PvP.

Armitas

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Could have sworn I already responded to this but I can't find my post!

We have a fix in for the next PTS build that resolves an issue with Battle Spirit where the damage/healing/shield values were not being calculated properly.

We're going to test this change before making any other changes to shields.

As an aside... we also fixed the armor penetration issue with the sharpened and piercing traits.

You're the man Rich! Thank you for responding. Could you be more specific about whats being done about shields? Is the ability for them to be crit changing or the issue with overflow where any damage exceeding the shield value applies to the player at 0% mitigation? The issue we are mentioning, afaik, is not related to the battle spirit buff.

ZOS_RichLambert

DDuke wrote: »

Have you considered leaving the shields slightly stronger, but allowing them to be crit?

Sure there's lots of things we could do. That being said, the Battle Spirit fix isn't a small change, so we're going to test that out first.

Zsymon

@ZOS_RichLambert Any insight that can be given about the bug where overflow damage gets taken unmitigated by damage shield users?

All this wouldn't be such a problem if we would not get destroyed like this by the overflow. It's pointless for us to wear any heavy armor pieces, since armor rating and spell resistance gets completely ignored by overflow damage.

Using smaller damage shields such as the new frost staff heavy attack, actually causes us to take more damage instead of less, since it basically gives our enemy a free 100% armor/spell penetration on their attacks.

Stalwart385

As someone who painfully fights shield users. I am happy Hardened Ward and Healing Ward numbers are being fixed. Allowing shields to be critted isn't bad either. Still shield overflow should be fixed. Sorcs shields will be weaker and able to be damaged more. The overflow damage should have mitigation applied or shields may become a detriment to use. Even as a heavy DK, I wouldn't want to apply a weak igneous shield just for it to allow overflow damage to bypass my heavy armor. I don't use the skill to much in pvp but would avoid it if this is what happens.

I am also very happy to hear penetration is being fixed.

EDIT:

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Could have sworn I already responded to this but I can't find my post!

We have a fix in for the next PTS build that resolves an issue with Battle Spirit where the damage/healing/shield values were not being calculated properly.

We're going to test this change before making any other changes to shields.

As an aside... we also fixed the armor penetration issue with the sharpened and piercing traits.

Wait does this mean you're holding off on the shield crits. I'm fine with this until we see how the new values hold up.

Ezareth

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Could have sworn I already responded to this but I can't find my post!

We have a fix in for the next PTS build that resolves an issue with Battle Spirit where the damage/healing/shield values were not being calculated properly.

We're going to test this change before making any other changes to shields.

As an aside... we also fixed the armor penetration issue with the sharpened and piercing traits.

Have you considered leaving the shields slightly stronger, but allowing them to be crit?

The problem uncrittable shields create is that they make the whole crit stat (already less beneficial than stamina or weapon dmg) useless against certain opponents.

This leads to less build diversity and more "stack weapon dmg/stamina".

For instance, daggers are just downright bad in PvP compared to swords or maces (partly) due to this.

Personally I like the paper, scissors, rock concept that uncrittable shields introduces.

If all damage done to everyone behaves in the same way no matter what you're attacking then the game becomes a straight math calculation for what is best. Uncrittable shields means throws a monkey wrench into that kind of calculation.

And if weapon damage/stamina was the only viable build option right now everyone would be running swords instead of maces (which shows that penetration is valued over top end damage even though it is worthless on shields).

Well, convince me why I'd want to have any crit bonuses on my gear then, when 50%~ of players are immune to it most of the time.

It already is a math calculation, which says "dont use daggers, dont get crit bonuses".

The only reason maces are used currently is because they provide so much value (against the other 50% of players, and sorcs that dont have shield up which is a rarity) due to this bug.

After they're fixed, swords will be hands down the best choice for PvP.

For plenty of reasons. There are plenty of abilities/situations that guarantee crit, there are quite a few abilities/CP passives that give you a bonus on crit and depending on the situation and has both know burst damage streaks are usually what kills players and that is going to be more important than ever in a 50% reduced damage Cyrodiil.

Also keep in mind that if your base attack breaks through a shield it will still crit if it was going to.

I don't think that when sharpened is fixed swords will be hands down the best choice, I think they will be pretty balanced from the numbers I've run, especially since the 50% damage debuff from cyrodiil being fixed just nerfed swords down to 2.5% where before it was additive with it.

There are a ton of different equations for different thing depending on the situation and its still very possible to design a build/playstyle around any of the weapons (except axes haha).

Stikato

Crazy idea.

Why not just make shields function completely like health?

- Allow bleeds, crits, knockbacks, force siphon procs etc.
- Allow armor and spell mitigation to work on shields.
- Then adjust shield values as needed to find balance.

Ezareth (and this isn't a disagreement with you, more an alternative idea) I understand that this would make the game more simplistic, and that you and other players' competitive advantage comes from understanding the complicated mechanics at work. Which you graciously do share, and I have personally benefited from. At the same time, if you showed me 100 players, probably at least 90 of them wouldn't understand every single damage shield mechanic.

There is no documentation, no F.A.Q, no (reliable) tooltip information, no duels, no target dummies, no damage info w/o add-ons, that easily allow players to understand these ideas. Frankly, this game needs more understandable mechanics in order to retain players that feel like they understand what is happening on the battlefield, rather than to drive away those that don't. At the end of the day, it is unsatisfying for many to just keep wailing away with all their might on a bunny-hopping, OP build, have zero effect, and watch them streak into the sunset. (Not to mention the stack, prox, ST, barrier, purge meta that is just lame and unimaginative. Oops)

My point is, the damage shield mechanics are needlessly confusing. There have been so many threads, and so many complaints about this. Now it is turning into a "how do we change the battle spirit buff" game. It's just adding another layer!
Why not simplify the whole thing, adjust the values as needed, and be done with it. Once and for all.

And this would allow a build around Axes. LOL

Armitas

Stikato wrote: »

Crazy idea.

Why not just make shields function completely like health?

- Allow bleeds, crits, knockbacks, force siphon procs etc.
- Allow armor and spell mitigation to work on shields.
- Then adjust shield values as needed to find balance.

The last game I played, Lotro, used shields the same way, it was basically an extended health bar with an expiration.

Faulgor

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Could have sworn I already responded to this but I can't find my post!

We have a fix in for the next PTS build that resolves an issue with Battle Spirit where the damage/healing/shield values were not being calculated properly.

We're going to test this change before making any other changes to shields.

As an aside... we also fixed the armor penetration issue with the sharpened and piercing traits.

Have you considered leaving the shields slightly stronger, but allowing them to be crit?

The problem uncrittable shields create is that they make the whole crit stat (already less beneficial than stamina or weapon dmg) useless against certain opponents.

This leads to less build diversity and more "stack weapon dmg/stamina".

For instance, daggers are just downright bad in PvP compared to swords or maces (partly) due to this.

Personally I like the paper, scissors, rock concept that uncrittable shields introduces.

If all damage done to everyone behaves in the same way no matter what you're attacking then the game becomes a straight math calculation for what is best. Uncrittable shields means throws a monkey wrench into that kind of calculation.

And if weapon damage/stamina was the only viable build option right now everyone would be running swords instead of maces (which shows that penetration is valued over top end damage even though it is worthless on shields).

Well, convince me why I'd want to have any crit bonuses on my gear then, when 50%~ of players are immune to it most of the time.

It already is a math calculation, which says "dont use daggers, dont get crit bonuses".

The only reason maces are used currently is because they provide so much value (against the other 50% of players, and sorcs that dont have shield up which is a rarity) due to this bug.

After they're fixed, swords will be hands down the best choice for PvP.

I think this is in part due to crits merely giving a damage bonus. Swords already do that fine by themselves, so there's no reason to choose a +crit chance weapon instead.
It seems this is a common RPG thing, but the better ones I've played had special properties for critical attacks, such as 100% armor penetration. This made crit builds very effective on certain enemies, and rather subpar on others. Armor penetration is currently occupied by maces, but this is just an example. Before 1.6 we had ultimate gain on crit, but that most likely won't make a comeback. Crits could simply penetrate shields, but that would be quite situational as well.

Also, axes. What's up with that.

And 1h should really get the same weapon bonuses in a passive. The current state is just confusing and unnecessary.