CP Debate: Some people apparently need a power advantage to compensate for lack of skill

nimander99

I don't have very many CP's and I roll over folks in Cyrodiil. Plus as Cyrodiil is one big zerg fest CP's are negated by the mob.

GUNSWORD007

Personally I think that a good compromise would be to bind CP to character instead of account. This way grinders get a reward for their time while still keeping non-veteran PVP servers fair. Perhaps even a non CP PVP server as well that still allows VT ranks. these would let those without the time to invest in grinding CP still be competitive in PVP and still have fun. Don't know if this solution has been mentioned yet or not but figured I'd add my two cents.

Tolmos

GUNSWORD007 wrote: »

Personally I think that a good compromise would be to bind CP to character instead of account. This way grinders get a reward for their time while still keeping non-veteran PVP servers fair. Perhaps even a non CP PVP server as well that still allows VT ranks. these would let those without the time to invest in grinding CP still be competitive in PVP and still have fun. Don't know if this solution has been mentioned yet or not but figured I'd add my two cents.

I'm more of a fan of one idea that has been floating around here lately- 3 new ability slots meant only for CP, and you get to pick 1 trait from each constellation to go in those slots. It's a very ESO-like solution and would create a similar "cap" that EVE online has. In EVE, you can progress near infinitely- new characters will never, ever catch up to old ones unless they quit. But it's irrelevant because you can only get so good at 1 thing. So after like 1.5-2 years, the new character will be as good at say Cruisers or Frigates than someone who played since 2003. The 2003 player has more options maxed out to pick from, but on the battle field the new player is competitive with the one or two things he has managed to max.

GUNSWORD007

That would work, though I still think it best that CP be bound to character, I see a lot of lvl <20s that seem to have infanate resources. I think the non- veteran servers should be for new players not those who just make alts with as all the advantages that com with CP.

Tolmos

GUNSWORD007 wrote: »

That would work, though I still think it best that CP be bound to character, I see a lot of lvl <20s that seem to have infanate resources. I think the non- veteran servers should be for new players not those who just make alts with as all the advantages that com with CP.

Ahhh yea I didn't think about the impact account bound CP would have on the non-vet server. yea, that is problematic.

eventide03b14a_ESO

spoqster wrote: »

It's really sad to see that this forum seems to be full of people who believe that a time investment warrants a reward by itself. And these people often insult "casuals" for wanting to be competitive without being forced to grind as superficial "I want everything now"-players who are not willing to work for their achievements. This misguided interpretation is essentially at the heart of the whole CP debate.

I'll put it simply: Grinding requires no skill and thus should not reward you with power advantages such as CP.

But grinding will let you improve your skill, so that when you are better you will be able to beat content and other players who you were not able to beat before. So even without a CS you can still go grinding and it might actually make you a better player.

No one has ever won an NBA Championship by just investing time. Yes, you need to invest a lot of time to be good enough to play in the NBA, but you will not get a job in the NBA simply for hanging out at the court for 10 hours every day shooting hoops, while other people go to work. You actually need to use this time to get really good at basketball to play in the NBA.

A multiplayer game should not have a vertical progression system that rewards people who have more time to play. Instead it should have a horizontal progression system that opens up an infinite path to finding the perfect build for your playstyle - allowing you to grow in power by getting better at playing the game.

This game mechanic is at the heart of all popular games. Baseball would NOT be a popular sport if you would get a more powerful electronic bat for every week you hang out at the training ground (which would make you a better player regardless of your skill).

Now, can we please leave 2005 behind us, forget about all the antiquated themepark/treadmill/vertical progression mechanics, and together think about how we can turn this online Elder Scrolls game into a game that all players (old and new) will enjoy for years to come?

That's the game I was hoping it would be. Sadly that's not the game we got. It's so much easier to just put a system in place that grants a percent bonus to existing attributes than to actually think up new skill lines and animate them and test them.

HxC

spoqster wrote: »

It's really sad to see that this forum seems to be full of people who believe that a time investment warrants a reward by itself. And these people often insult "casuals" for wanting to be competitive without being forced to grind as superficial "I want everything now"-players who are not willing to work for their achievements. This misguided interpretation is essentially at the heart of the whole CP debate.

1. A casual can't be competitive or its not anymore a casual.
2. You don't need to grind to be good at this game, you don't need to grind to do end game content, you don't need to grind to be efficient in PvP.
3. Gear setup is more important than Cp in term of power.
4. The problem in PvP is Competitive players facing casuals players (free AP) , before 1.6 the problem was already here.
5. The problem in PvE is the content was not designed to be challenging for players with a lot of CP

Now, a lot of players leave the games because they think they have to grind endlessly to play end game content, they are mislead by what they read on the internet and THIS IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM .

VincentBlanquin

because they cant stand that some newbie can possibly kill them. unacceptable, when they play over a year. mystery solved

dday3six

The business model of MMO's aims to keep players playing as long as possible. Grinding is one way this is done. It's been a part of gaming for a very long time. MMO's aim to occupy years of time, and lacking a long term goal to strive for, players often lose interest.

Goals are a form of under the surface content which keeps players on the hook. Direct new content requires time to develop and in most cases only takes players a short time to finish. This is why increased itemization, balance changes, and in general new collectables to assemble are common components of new content. Those are the real meat of the new release ment to satiate and fill time after the story elements have been consumed.

The human psychology is wired in a way to respond best to comprehensive progression. A person needs to see the positive effects of their actions as gratification in order to maintain long term interest.

Lacking any sense of progression will not maintain ESO. Players need something to strive for. So if Champion Points are to be removed something with a long term application will need to fill that void, or else players will burnt out.

This near obsessive fixation with skill vs time spent honestly smacks of haterade to me. "I am 1337 skilled, therefore I should be the decisive victor." Reality calling - skill alone rarely determines the winner.

Genomic

sadownik wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

But now I get rewarded for sitting in Mom's basement and grinding Cracked Wood Cave 12 hours a day.

Laugh all you want but the last time i log into game i observed few people running in prefectly syhnchronised style around well known grinding place. I talked to them a little, their goal was reaching 600 cps. They assume they will reach that goal till half of july. I wished them luck and uninstalled game.

So the current direction of the game is catering to the 1% of the population who have no jobs, are agoraphobic and have clinical OCD. Seems reasonable.

Seaber

HxC wrote: »

2. You don't need to grind to be good at this game, you don't need to grind to do end game content, you don't need to grind to be efficient in PvP.
3. Gear setup is more important than Cp in term of power.

Wrong.

Tolmos

dday3six wrote: »

This near obsessive fixation with skill vs time spent honestly smacks of haterade to me. "I am 1337 skilled, therefore I should be the decisive victor." Reality calling - skill alone rarely determines the winner.

So, the most player skill shouldn't be the determining factor, but rather the most time spent? People who play the longest are entitled to victory simply by matter of seniority?

Reality calling - just because you put massive amounts of time into something doesn't mean you will, or should, win. And in a competitive game, having a system designed that does not reward actual ability, but rather just awards tedium and repetition, will not be sustainable. Especially if that system alienates newcomers.

A year from now, with the current system, we'll be another game that suffers from a lack of new players; once the newcomers realize just how ridiculously, almost comically, far behind they are they will run for the hills. That... is a bleak future for any MMO.

Tolmos

Genomic wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

But now I get rewarded for sitting in Mom's basement and grinding Cracked Wood Cave 12 hours a day.

Laugh all you want but the last time i log into game i observed few people running in prefectly syhnchronised style around well known grinding place. I talked to them a little, their goal was reaching 600 cps. They assume they will reach that goal till half of july. I wished them luck and uninstalled game.

So the current direction of the game is catering to the 1% of the population who have no jobs, are agoraphobic and have clinical OCD. Seems reasonable.

I've seen so many of my favorite MMOs do that- cater to their current playerbase so hard that they lose sight of making sure FUTURE players are covered. In the end, they almost always see the error of their ways and try to correct, but by then new players are few and far between (word spreads and reputations are hard to fix) and they just end up then alienating their previous players in the process.

It's always heart breaking to see it happen, too, because it's ALWAYS brought on with cheers from peanut gallery... to the bitter end. Then it just becomes another MMO that you hear about from time to time with its old, displaced, players saying was the best game ever, OMG you should have played it... despite the horrendous reviews. Because for them, the few old players who stuck it out from the beginning, it was exceptionally rewarding. Just not for anyone else.

Tolmos

oops, double post.

Love_Chunks

Honestly i think people are exaggerating just how much of an advantage CP creates. For instance stam regen passive maxes out at 25%. How much extra stam regen is that actually giving in real numbers? I know that when i use relentless focus which gives 10% increase to stam regen, i recive ~90 actual stam regen. so 100 cp into moon calf would only net me ~225 extra stam regen. Is that really as overtly powerfull as you all think it is? And even more so, smart players would split thier CP up between regen cost reduction(max 15%) and tumbling (pvp). so in order for someone to have all of these fully maxed not so "overpowered" boni, they would need 900 cp. Most poeple are no where near that many points thus no where near the max stats to even have this god like advantage you all are complaining about.

Another example: spell shield passive max 25%. That just over one piece of gold nirnhoned armor and with nirn being nerfed in the up coming patch i'd be hard pressed to say it would make someone over powered. Even more so look at the amor passives. 13% max armor for each type which is way less than the max percentage you get from reinforced trait. And again 100 points needed to acheive that number which has a terrible return per point invested and is only optimal for heavy armor users.

I could go on with more actual number comparisons as this is just what i know off of the top of my head. My point is that cries about CP making hardcore players OP are exaggerated cries from being thrashed in pvp or spring boarded off of your misinformed opinion of the advantages cp actually give making you feel more underpowered than you really are.

dday3six

Tolmos wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

This near obsessive fixation with skill vs time spent honestly smacks of haterade to me. "I am 1337 skilled, therefore I should be the decisive victor." Reality calling - skill alone rarely determines the winner.

So, the most player skill shouldn't be the determining factor, but rather the most time spent? People who play the longest are entitled to victory simply by matter of seniority?

Reality calling - just because you put massive amounts of time into something doesn't mean you will, or should, win. And in a competitive game, having a system designed that does not reward actual ability, but rather just awards tedium and repetition, will not be sustainable. Especially if that system alienates newcomers.

A year from now, with the current system, we'll be another game that suffers from a lack of new players; once the newcomers realize just how ridiculously, almost comically, far behind they are they will run for the hills. That... is a bleak future for any MMO.

You seemed to have missed the "alone" part of what I said. It is refering to skill alone is not, nor should not be the determining factor. Both Skill and time invested need to be important. Furthermore people tend to be more nuanced rather than simply being one polar extreme or the other. Just because a person is not in favor of one extreme does not by default mean they are in favor of the other.

Players also seem to miss the design of ESO's PVP. The focus is not 1v1 duels. It's faction vs faction vs faction. People say "How am I suppose to beat player with X CP more than me?" Well it's a team effort. ZOS are nerfing the mechanics players used to confront 1vX situations in upcoming updates. That's because they intent the answer to that question to be - you enlist help.

New player experience is a struggle, but a new player should not be able to keep step by step to an older player playing for a year. That older player's time invested should mean something. Now a rework like CP gains starting at level 1, or a much less time required to reach level cap. Or on an alt getting a character level exp bonus for having a character at max level could be beneficial. However there needs to be a balance between skill and time invested. The system should not favorite one or the other solely.

Ace_of_Destiny

Genomic wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

But now I get rewarded for sitting in Mom's basement and grinding Cracked Wood Cave 12 hours a day.

Laugh all you want but the last time i log into game i observed few people running in prefectly syhnchronised style around well known grinding place. I talked to them a little, their goal was reaching 600 cps. They assume they will reach that goal till half of july. I wished them luck and uninstalled game.

So the current direction of the game is catering to the 1% of the population who have no jobs, are agoraphobic and have clinical OCD. Seems reasonable.

Are you making fun of me?

I happen to be "unemployed" (On Disablity) DUE TO my S.A.D. (Social Anxiety Disorder -- Commonly mistaken for Agoraphobia), and do have slight case of O.C.D...I also have four broken vertebrae in my back, but that you didn't mention. (lol)

Just saying...we do actually exist.

Glad I finally "made the cut" for a "1%" group!
GO ME!

SOLDIER_1stClass

I am not going to argue over the opinion of whether the Champion Points are a good or bad thing.

1. The community is divided on the Champion Point system

2. I do not see the Champion point system going away anytime soon.


So my suggestion is to create a PVP campaign where Champion Points are negated. Additionally, give the option to have all group content done either with or without Champion Points active.

It s not a perfect fix however, this may temporarily please those who do not want Champion Points; especially for PvP players.

That being said I would like for Zenimax to continue with the vertical growth system like they did with levels 1-50 followed by a horizontal growth system once the level cap is reached. Furthermore, with each new major content update they would add new vertical levels followed by additional horizontal growth once the new cap is reached.

I am by no means a game developer, just a gamer and these are my two cents.