CP Debate: Some people apparently need a power advantage to compensate for lack of skill

DaveMoeDee

While I personally have no problem with the current CP system (even though I only have like 92 cp on PC), I do think there is some validity to the concern that it could lead some to lose interest In the game. I think this is greatly dependent on the amount of PvE content they release in the upcoming years. If they regularly release new content, PvE-oriented players will remain the majority and endgame won't really matter.

In the current scenario of no new PvE content, the only people who will retain interest long term are PvP or leaderboard oriented people, the same people who are most likely to find CP frustrating. While it may seem reasonable and just to say that those who put in the effort to get more CP deserve it, it is important to avoid a mass migration of devoted players.

While I am more concerned about ZOS catering to people who want more story, I would not be opposed to an adjust,net to CP proposed by some where you can only select a limited number of active CP buffs. We can even keep the road to 3600 by having a unlocking mechanism after a set number of CP where you can choose what to unlock. The unlocking should be flat, or a most a single level of depth, to minimize the vertical nature of the progression. This would be a true horizontal progression past the number of CP needed to unlock any single mix of available CP buffs. No respecing of unlocks as would be allowed. By doing this, completion it's still can enjoy the progress towards unlocking all potential buffs, while competitive players would just need to wise pick their unlocks and could potentially never need another CP after 300 or 600, or whatever number would be sufficient to unlock any possible combination of buffs.

CP grinding would only provide quicker access to an achievement, and more flexibility in swapping out buffs. Competitively, 300 and 3600 might have the exact same power in PvP if 300 was already enough to get the most powerful buffs for the kind of build they both are.

the downside to this is we would lose the ability to tweak characters by deciding where to allocate CP. we could have a system where a certain pool of CP can be distributed among the selected buffs to allow customization, but it is would still leave the majority of CP acquired unavailable for placing into a selected buff to avoid excessive verticals progression.

Woeler

parpin wrote: »

could not agree more..op is right.
game=entertainment=fun
grinding is not fun and many people can not do it even if they have the time..it is terribly boring thing to do..why zos rewarding people who can do such thing?? well it is beyond me.

THAT, my friend, is YOUR opinion.

spoqster

Woeler wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

I'll put it simply: Grinding requires no skill and thus should not reward you with power advantages such as CP.

First of al: No. Second of all: I guess you have never played an MMO untill endgame. Grinding is, has always been and will always be a part of MMO's.

Also, the title of this topic is completely wrong. With our without championpoints you can do excellent PvP and Raid. If you can't, don't blame it on CP, because it's not a lack of CP that makes bad raids, it's bad players that make bad raids.

People like you really get me fired up.

What kind of argument is that: "Grinding is, has always been and will always be a part of MMO's."? So before cars horse have always been the primary means of transportation. Then somebody invented the car. Now the car is better until someone figures out something else.

I can only assume that you are not terribly creative.

That's not an argument, that's an observation.

Ok, let me explain how this works. Killing mobs gives xp, it has always done this, in every mmo. Quests also give xp, but quests require you to actively move around, often over long distances. The simple fact that killing mobs gives xp makes grinding possible. It is not something that was implemented on purpose, like you see it. It is a side effect.

I want to have a V14 of each class, I do not want to do all those quests over and over again taking me days and weeks and months, no, I just want to play endgame with multiple characters.

There is no "better alternative" like your (flawed) cars analogy, because grinding is not something that is implemented on purpose. It's not a designed mechanic. People play to progress their character, you can't just nerf all progression untill the guy that can play 1 evening a week is happy about it. you play, you get stronger, that seems pretty logical to me. If people who can play once a week expect they can be in the top of players find that their expectation is an illusion, I'd say it's not the game that is failing, it's the expectation!

There are numerous people on this forum who blame CP grinding for them not getting to the top of the leaderboards, which is absolutely the most silly argument ever.

Good players will always be good players, with or without CP. With or without grinding.

And don't get me wrong, I really want to see a machanic that lets me level fast and have fun at the same time, but that would break questing all together.

You want all your characters at max level? I can understand that, I want the same.

Now I have a better solution for you than grinding: ZOS should lower the level cap to lvl 20. Then you get your characters to max level very quickly. Problem solved.

You don't want to do the quest again for the XP? Great! Doing a quest is like watching a TV show. There is a story to it, only that it is interactive. Solution: Don't reward XP for doing the quest, let the story be the reward for the quest.

So now you are at level 20, you are as powerful as all the best players. Now the game really starts. Now you can practice your rotation, so you get better, you can unlock more skills to try new play styles and you can unlock and try different armor sets. This is an infite process until you find how you want to play and get as good as possible, without the need to increase the base power of your character beyond level 20.

DenMoria

Nestor wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

I get the feeling a lot of people would be okay with CP in a single player game, because they could pause the game for a year and jump right back in to the grind where they left out. It's the fact that you have to compete with other people that's the rub.

Those people are not here posting about the issues of CP because those issues will never affect them. If you don't do PvP and or Trials for Leaderboard positions (as opposed to just running them for the fun and experience of doing it) then how many CPs another player has does not matter much, if at all. It might matter to those doing End Level Gold Pledges, but that is debatable if CPs are needed to be successful at those instances. They can help, but are they needed?

Question is, of a percentage, how many players, not forum posters, are mostly or exclusively Solo or PvE 4 Person Group?

I realize I'm a forum poster, but, I can tell you that, of the 100 odd PSN friends that have played ESO, about 75% are solo's and small group players. Only 6 are left, and of them 2 are true MMOers and PvPers and the other 4 are still soloing or just playing in small groups and avoiding Cyrodil.

DenMoria

Acrolas wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

It might matter to those doing End Level Gold Pledges, but that is debatable if CPs are needed to be successful at those instances. They can help, but are they needed?

Teamwork matters. Group voice chat is probably more beneficial than CP, because better communication makes for better teams.

I'd rather play solo than have a team full of special snowflakes. Which, rather ironically, are turning out to be the ones with fewer, not more, CP.

What are snowflakes? I want to make sure that I don't melt when I get to the true group dynamics after I get past level 20 on all my toons.

DenMoria

parpin wrote: »

could not agree more..op is right.
game=entertainment=fun
grinding is not fun and many people can not do it even if they have the time..it is terribly boring thing to do..why zos rewarding people who can do such thing?? well it is beyond me.

I guess I'm not grinding. I just deconstruct, research, improve and create items, potions and trying recipies when I get to areas with the tables and leave it at that. Is that not the right way to do it? Should I be doing something differently? I have gotten my certifications, of course. It only takes about 20 minutes and I can get all 6 in short order.

ragespell

Pro CS players fail to see the big problems in the (no so) long run:
- disastrous pve experience for all the players (too few cp? too many cp? vr and itemization works because Zos can decide in advance what are the boundaries and deliver a content within those boundaries. But being unable to predict how many cp will have every party memeber, will force Zos to deliver *** pve content)
- PVP balance: so you are unemployed, and have 8 hours a day to grind. This gives you the right to be better than every working player? If you think so, you should give me a chance to compete. How? Let me buy cp. "But but but it is p2w" I hear you cry. So my money are worth less than your free time? Why? We aren't talking about skill, are we? If you really think cp doesn't count, and skill will always win, you should have no problem to accept that we buy our cp. It isn't by your definition p2w.
How this sound to you?

DaveMoeDee

No, CP does not mean disastrous PvE. It does not make stories uninteresting. For those that don't put much analytical thought into combat, it doesn't even make combat trivial.

ragespell

Yeah, because

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

No, CP does not mean disastrous PvE. It does not make stories uninteresting. For those that don't put much analytical thought into combat, it doesn't even make combat trivial.

Yeah, because pve is all about story, right?
If you give a wonderful quest people will gadly do it...1 time.

Pve in a mmorg is something else. Maybe you have a SP game background and you don't know this.
In mmorpg you have to give a reason to your playerbase to repeat the same content ad nauseam.
No software house can deliver content as fast as player consume content. Good story or not.

Rylana

Lets take this to the other extreme, OP

In order to support your original assertion, the following statement must also be true:



"A level one (or ten in the case of pvp) fresh faced toon right out of the box should be able to complete Sanctum speed runs and own anyone in Cyrodiil"


now you see how ludicrous your whole premise is

Ace_of_Destiny

Okay...

One person trains everyday for three years to run a marathon, trains their body to peak performance for the human species, and gets their time down to "world record" time.

Another person sits and watches television all day, and eats junk food for every meal, for three years then just shows up on the day of the race.

Which should logically win?

My thought...if you put in the time, you deserve the reward.

I don't particularly like to "grind".
But, I am not going to complain that somebody that put in more time is more powerful than I am.

I am not sure if there ever was, or ever will be a "perfect system" that works for both PvE & PvP.
If I find one, I will be sure to post it here as soon as I do!

Woeler

spoqster wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

I'll put it simply: Grinding requires no skill and thus should not reward you with power advantages such as CP.

First of al: No. Second of all: I guess you have never played an MMO untill endgame. Grinding is, has always been and will always be a part of MMO's.

Also, the title of this topic is completely wrong. With our without championpoints you can do excellent PvP and Raid. If you can't, don't blame it on CP, because it's not a lack of CP that makes bad raids, it's bad players that make bad raids.

People like you really get me fired up.

What kind of argument is that: "Grinding is, has always been and will always be a part of MMO's."? So before cars horse have always been the primary means of transportation. Then somebody invented the car. Now the car is better until someone figures out something else.

I can only assume that you are not terribly creative.

That's not an argument, that's an observation.

Ok, let me explain how this works. Killing mobs gives xp, it has always done this, in every mmo. Quests also give xp, but quests require you to actively move around, often over long distances. The simple fact that killing mobs gives xp makes grinding possible. It is not something that was implemented on purpose, like you see it. It is a side effect.

I want to have a V14 of each class, I do not want to do all those quests over and over again taking me days and weeks and months, no, I just want to play endgame with multiple characters.

There is no "better alternative" like your (flawed) cars analogy, because grinding is not something that is implemented on purpose. It's not a designed mechanic. People play to progress their character, you can't just nerf all progression untill the guy that can play 1 evening a week is happy about it. you play, you get stronger, that seems pretty logical to me. If people who can play once a week expect they can be in the top of players find that their expectation is an illusion, I'd say it's not the game that is failing, it's the expectation!

There are numerous people on this forum who blame CP grinding for them not getting to the top of the leaderboards, which is absolutely the most silly argument ever.

Good players will always be good players, with or without CP. With or without grinding.

And don't get me wrong, I really want to see a machanic that lets me level fast and have fun at the same time, but that would break questing all together.

You want all your characters at max level? I can understand that, I want the same.

Now I have a better solution for you than grinding: ZOS should lower the level cap to lvl 20. Then you get your characters to max level very quickly. Problem solved.

You don't want to do the quest again for the XP? Great! Doing a quest is like watching a TV show. There is a story to it, only that it is interactive. Solution: Don't reward XP for doing the quest, let the story be the reward for the quest.

So now you are at level 20, you are as powerful as all the best players. Now the game really starts. Now you can practice your rotation, so you get better, you can unlock more skills to try new play styles and you can unlock and try different armor sets. This is an infite process until you find how you want to play and get as good as possible, without the need to increase the base power of your character beyond level 20.

That completely takes away the feeling of progress and will make the game very boring very fast. when you posted you had ideas I thought you serously had a great idea, but this? No, this is just taking progression out all together, and character progression is a big part of MMO's. I wouldn't play this game if I couldn't keep improving my characters. I want to be rewarded for playing by the progression of my character.

The fact that this has never (as far as I know) been implemented in an MMO is because, well, frankly it seems like quite a bad idea to me. And I'm pretty sure the playerbase will be unhappy as well.

Ace-2112 wrote: »

Okay...

One person trains everyday for three years to run a marathon, trains their body to peak performance for the human species, and gets their time down to "world record" time.

Another person sits and watches television all day, and eats junk food for every meal, for three years then just shows up on the day of the race.

Which should logically win?

Couldn't agree more

delphwind_ESO

What is this? A patch made a change to the game that some people don't like!

This is new and exciting!

gard

sadownik wrote: »

Memnoch_Devil wrote: »

I don't mean to come across as brash or insensitive but to see people complain about things that are available to everyone is just crazy. I was just reading how some guy said baseball would be bad if one guy had a special bat ect ect a bunch on nonsense to follow. Eventually after his page rant , all I concluded was that he is a cry baby. Everyone has the same stuff just put the time and and be even or just stop playing it is that simple.

Agreed, and since many, me included, dont like the idea of putting time in mindless grind for hours, we do indeed quit.

Hope you got your $60 worth. It's good to move on and try new things though. Maybe you can find a game that caters to casual gamers.

What if ESO had a pvp mode where everyone had the same skills and equipment to pick from and you could rebuild that toon as often as you want? Heck that wouldn't even require many changes - you'd get 1 pvp-only toon that can only be played in the "casual gamer" campaign.

DaveMoeDee

For those who reply to PvE comments with "this is an MMO", did you notice how much content their is up to the end of Cadwell's Gold? It is quite a lot. There are a significant number of players I have come across in guilds who have played since launch and still haven't finished Cadwell's Gold. If they keep adding zones with good quests, than PvE does not have to be but some want it to be - filler to get you to max level.

It is ironic that so many would complain about all the content to get through Cadwell's Gold yet someone would think there isn't enough content for people to be able to play without being concerned about "endgame". Perhaps instead of focusing on other MMOs, you should look at this game.

And if these PvE focused players like pets and fancy mounts and buy all the upcoming content, they will provide as much much revenue per capita as any endgamer while likely causing less headaches for ZOS since they ares spamming AOEs in Cyrodiil. You won't hear these players ranting here because the game fits them better -- because they might have been the people the core of this game was actually designed for. Maybe this game wasn't actually designed to be focussed on endgame. Perhaps that is why they want to provide regular content updates instead of biannual expansions. Perhaps that is why the road to max level takes so long.

Stalwart385

At higher CP (250-300) it takes 300 CP to get a 10% advantage in one stat.

You start to run out of significant stats to invest in for your build.

Player gear, skill and knowledge has much more effect than the champion system.

Some one grinding all day, every day will be far behind in those aspects.

New players need to learn the game. CPs will come as you play.

Quit complaining and start playing.

mrskinskull

High champ points make players that might be good under normal circumstances into soft weak bad players. Why spend time perfecting your build when young can just kill a bunch of sitting ducks over and over?

The vertical progression system is.great for single player RPGs but against actual players it has the effect of softening any actual skill a player might have. The longer you play the farther the difficulty dial turns towards easy mode.

So stop all the grind hate, some people just need the game to be a bit easier. My main character is 23 non vet. Come at me bro, lol.


I love the champ system idea for the pve stuff. The only prob is up against actual people.

Why not just turn off champ points for PvP. Battle level everyone to vet one or whatever and have a good old fashioned brawl?

Ackwalan

Just leave everyone at level 1, with no CP and no advancement. But then this wouldn't be an MMO.

DaveMoeDee

Ackwalan wrote: »

Just leave everyone at level 1, with no CP and no advancement. But then this wouldn't be an MMO.

To be more accurate, it would still be an MMO, but not an RPG.

CriD

Turn CP off in PvP, leave it on for PvE. Or make VR Campaigns for CP and for No CP.

With enough CP it can easily overcome skill, this should not be the case in any PvP aspect. CP should be a bonus for end game PvE , if VR is the only thing that puts a gap in PvP besides skill and gear, and builds, I think PvP will be a more level playing field.

If someone has 10 spare hours to play this game a day, great. More power to you. Honestly I don't care too much if people play 24/7. But when it comes down to PvP, someone who doesn't have a job or a life, should not be able to have a huge advantage over people that have work, or children, or a life. It seems I get punished by having responsibilities and having to go to work and feed the family everyday.

DaveMoeDee

Ace-2112 wrote: »

Okay...

One person trains everyday for three years to run a marathon, trains their body to peak performance for the human species, and gets their time down to "world record" time.

Another person sits and watches television all day, and eats junk food for every meal, for three years then just shows up on the day of the race.

Which should logically win?

My thought...if you put in the time, you deserve the reward.

I don't particularly like to "grind".
But, I am not going to complain that somebody that put in more time is more powerful than I am.

I am not sure if there ever was, or ever will be a "perfect system" that works for both PvE & PvP.
If I find one, I will be sure to post it here as soon as I do!

I think some would argue that actually playing PvP or running 12 man dungeons is practice that increases your skill level as a player. They might say that grinding mobs might as well be eating junk food as training.

DaveMoeDee

Woeler wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

You want all your characters at max level? I can understand that, I want the same.

Now I have a better solution for you than grinding: ZOS should lower the level cap to lvl 20. Then you get your characters to max level very quickly. Problem solved.

You don't want to do the quest again for the XP? Great! Doing a quest is like watching a TV show. There is a story to it, only that it is interactive. Solution: Don't reward XP for doing the quest, let the story be the reward for the quest.

So now you are at level 20, you are as powerful as all the best players. Now the game really starts. Now you can practice your rotation, so you get better, you can unlock more skills to try new play styles and you can unlock and try different armor sets. This is an infite process until you find how you want to play and get as good as possible, without the need to increase the base power of your character beyond level 20.

That completely takes away the feeling of progress and will make the game very boring very fast. when you posted you had ideas I thought you serously had a great idea, but this? No, this is just taking progression out all together, and character progression is a big part of MMO's. I wouldn't play this game if I couldn't keep improving my characters. I want to be rewarded for playing by the progression of my character.

The fact that this has never (as far as I know) been implemented in an MMO is because, well, frankly it seems like quite a bad idea to me. And I'm pretty sure the playerbase will be unhappy as well.

I thought the previous poster was being sarcastic to point out that being okay with leveling up to 50 but not vertical progression past that is arbitrary. Perhaps they were serious and I was projecting on them.

There are a lot of people who are anti-VR or anti-CP. Why not be anti-all levels? Clearly, that idea is stupid in an RPG. But then we need criteria for deciding how much leveling/vertical progression. ZOS seems to have given the answer "a lot". Thus, at launch, we already had all that content up through Cadwell's Gold meant to get us to VR10.

Yet, if ZOS wants us to also spend time in Cyrodiil, it is probably best to have a reasonable point at which vertical progression ends. This is also true if they want to make the game work for people not interested in questing but interested in PvP. I do not expect them to want to appeal to everyone, but based on how they market PvP at launch, it seemed that was considered an important part of the game.

ZOS knows the percentage of players that spend a lot of time in Cyrodiil and the patterns of play while there. I would assume that they will read all comments here through the filter of that knowledge. If the competitive players are in fact a bulk of the people most supporting the game through $ and in-game time, that should give their comments extra weight.

RinaldoGandolphi

Ok, here is my take:

The problem with Cyrodiil is the lack of reasonable caps in place...why do you think Blackwater Blade is the best place to PVP?

What they really need to do is just disable the Champion System inside Cyrodiil and cap the Armor, Spell Resist, Weapon Damage, Spell Damage, Health, Magic, and Stamina regens to reasonable levels like 1.5 had it.Then your 3, 4, and 5 piece gear bonuses and the skill choices on your bar make the difference between winners and losers, not who has the most champion points.

Yes 1.5 like PVP would be much better then the PVP we currently have in Vet Campaigns, the Champion System just further adds to the imbalance. You don't really need the Champion System bonuses in Cyrodiil anyways, and removing them and placing caps like we had in 1.5 would raise the Time to Kill Drastically and skill choice and gear choice would matter far more the time spent grinding champion points.

Though I know im in the minority, folks who grinded will never agree to this, so its moot...yet the same people complain the TTK in Cyrodiil is too low, infinite resource builds are a problem, etc, but no one wants to address the root cause and instead wants to band-aid symptoms (the upcoming nerfs in 1.7 in no way address the core problems)

michaelb14a_ESO2

Tolmos wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

That's not an argument, that's an observation.

It's unfortunate that it's true. In MMOs, stats == skill. When someone says "This person is more skilled", they actually mean "This person has more stats and likely more free time". Actual player skill is usually non-existent.

ESO, I guess, is no different.

Your arguing against two totally different game design preferences. Rewarding gamer skill is the realm of FPS, Sports games, and action adventure. Rewarding gamer wins, is the realm of RPG's. It's not sad or unfortunate, it's game design, and peoples preferences are as diverse as their taste in TV shows.

I admit that "sex in the city" was a hugely popular and viable TV show. I for one didn't watch it nor enjoy shows like it, should I talk down to those that do?

Open up mind a bit and see you're preference is not the only one in this world.

spoqster

Ace-2112 wrote: »

Okay...

One person trains everyday for three years to run a marathon, trains their body to peak performance for the human species, and gets their time down to "world record" time.

Another person sits and watches television all day, and eats junk food for every meal, for three years then just shows up on the day of the race.

Which should logically win?

My thought...if you put in the time, you deserve the reward.

I don't particularly like to "grind".
But, I am not going to complain that somebody that put in more time is more powerful than I am.

I am not sure if there ever was, or ever will be a "perfect system" that works for both PvE & PvP.
If I find one, I will be sure to post it here as soon as I do!

We seem to have a bit of a misunderstanding here @Ace-2112. Of course the first guy will be performing better. And it's the same in ESO. Let's take one guy who played PvP everyday for 1 year with the same character and give that exact same character to a guy who steps into PvP for the first time. The first guy will be much better than the second. That's because there is real player skill in a game like this. You need to know what your skills do, you need to understand the synergies, practice the execution, know when to engage and when to disengage, know how to work in a group, know how to gank, how to siege, and so on.

But it feels completely unnatural to award players with higher damage and resistance levels for investing time. You wouldn't give the first guy in your example a bike to help him with his marathon, would you?

Emma_Overload

Rook_Master wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Rook_Master wrote: »

But now I get rewarded for sitting in Mom's basement and grinding Cracked Wood Cave 12 hours a day.

Laugh all you want but the last time i log into game i observed few people running in prefectly syhnchronised style around well known grinding place. I talked to them a little, their goal was reaching 600 cps. They assume they will reach that goal till half of july. I wished them luck and uninstalled game.

I joke about it because it helps me deal with the fact that the stratification of players into the CP have and have-nots is one of the things that could potentially ruin this game.

This game is ALREADY stratified into haves and have-nots because of group-walled Trials and Craglorn quests, leaderboards stacked with alts by so-called "elite guilds", and a gear gap thanks to BoP rewards. The Champion System is one of the few power progression mechanisms in ESO that ANY player can access at any time at his sole discretion.

spoqster

Woeler wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

I'll put it simply: Grinding requires no skill and thus should not reward you with power advantages such as CP.

First of al: No. Second of all: I guess you have never played an MMO untill endgame. Grinding is, has always been and will always be a part of MMO's.

Also, the title of this topic is completely wrong. With our without championpoints you can do excellent PvP and Raid. If you can't, don't blame it on CP, because it's not a lack of CP that makes bad raids, it's bad players that make bad raids.

People like you really get me fired up.

What kind of argument is that: "Grinding is, has always been and will always be a part of MMO's."? So before cars horse have always been the primary means of transportation. Then somebody invented the car. Now the car is better until someone figures out something else.

I can only assume that you are not terribly creative.

That's not an argument, that's an observation.

Ok, let me explain how this works. Killing mobs gives xp, it has always done this, in every mmo. Quests also give xp, but quests require you to actively move around, often over long distances. The simple fact that killing mobs gives xp makes grinding possible. It is not something that was implemented on purpose, like you see it. It is a side effect.

I want to have a V14 of each class, I do not want to do all those quests over and over again taking me days and weeks and months, no, I just want to play endgame with multiple characters.

There is no "better alternative" like your (flawed) cars analogy, because grinding is not something that is implemented on purpose. It's not a designed mechanic. People play to progress their character, you can't just nerf all progression untill the guy that can play 1 evening a week is happy about it. you play, you get stronger, that seems pretty logical to me. If people who can play once a week expect they can be in the top of players find that their expectation is an illusion, I'd say it's not the game that is failing, it's the expectation!

There are numerous people on this forum who blame CP grinding for them not getting to the top of the leaderboards, which is absolutely the most silly argument ever.

Good players will always be good players, with or without CP. With or without grinding.

And don't get me wrong, I really want to see a machanic that lets me level fast and have fun at the same time, but that would break questing all together.

You want all your characters at max level? I can understand that, I want the same.

Now I have a better solution for you than grinding: ZOS should lower the level cap to lvl 20. Then you get your characters to max level very quickly. Problem solved.

You don't want to do the quest again for the XP? Great! Doing a quest is like watching a TV show. There is a story to it, only that it is interactive. Solution: Don't reward XP for doing the quest, let the story be the reward for the quest.

So now you are at level 20, you are as powerful as all the best players. Now the game really starts. Now you can practice your rotation, so you get better, you can unlock more skills to try new play styles and you can unlock and try different armor sets. This is an infite process until you find how you want to play and get as good as possible, without the need to increase the base power of your character beyond level 20.

That completely takes away the feeling of progress and will make the game very boring very fast. when you posted you had ideas I thought you serously had a great idea, but this? No, this is just taking progression out all together, and character progression is a big part of MMO's. I wouldn't play this game if I couldn't keep improving my characters. I want to be rewarded for playing by the progression of my character.

The fact that this has never (as far as I know) been implemented in an MMO is because, well, frankly it seems like quite a bad idea to me. And I'm pretty sure the playerbase will be unhappy as well.

Ace-2112 wrote: »

Okay...

One person trains everyday for three years to run a marathon, trains their body to peak performance for the human species, and gets their time down to "world record" time.

Another person sits and watches television all day, and eats junk food for every meal, for three years then just shows up on the day of the race.

Which should logically win?

Couldn't agree more

I really don't understand why that would take away the feeling of progress @Woeler. You would still get skill points to unlock your skills, you could still level up your skill trees, and most importantly, you still have item progression.

Look, for everyone who is multiplayer minded, regardless of PvP or PvE, the game starts when they hit endgame. That is because all the low level gear is practically worthless in endgame. So people grind to v14 quickly and then enter the main progression system, which is item progression. Now with the CS there is another progression on top of that, but ESO did not have that before and nobody ever complained about not having enough progression at endgame. Think about it, the fact that hardcore players grind to v14 in 2 weeks and then play at that level for 2 years proves that players don't care about linear vertical progression. That's not why they are here. They play games like this for the item progression, and keep playing it longer if the item progression system is good.

So if we accept the fact that people grind through to the level cap in 2 weeks anyway, why not take that grinding away and give it to them in 2 days instead? It doesn't matter how long it takes, because that's not the important time frame. The 2 years after that are important. The horizontal progression system at endgame is what keeps the players hooked. Also, by lowering the time it takes to get to endgame, you'll be making endgame accessible for casuals who do not have the time to grind to level cap in 2 or 3 weeks. You'd be making the endgame content more accessible.

Tolmos

Lots of people are desperate to keep the CP system the way it is. The only thing I can think of is they are so afraid of the concept of having to play on the same level as others that they absolutely must have a stat advantage. Fair enough- if you need me to be handicapped in PvP for you to stand a chance against me, then I'll take the handicap. Maybe then you'll put up a decent fight.

Attorneyatlawl

Better XP parity across game activities would fix this entire concern , and has long been advocated for.

DenMoria

Tolmos wrote: »

Lots of people are desperate to keep the CP system the way it is. The only thing I can think of is they are so afraid of the concept of having to play on the same level as others that they absolutely must have a stat advantage. Fair enough- if you need me to be handicapped in PvP for you to stand a chance against me, then I'll take the handicap. Maybe then you'll put up a decent fight.

I doubt it. You're still gonna kick my arse unless I can sneak up on you, and, even then... I doubt it.