Nothing will ever change and lag will persist in Cyrodiil as long as Siege DOTS are purgable

RinaldoGandolphi

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Is expecting to be tore down for this, i know its coming

I know ZOS has been doing things to try and get people to spread out, adding new siege to dolmens, adding bonuses to killing delve bosses, etc...these are good ideas i guess in their own right...but they are missing just one thing....Purge.

I am against nerfing Purge because the skill has uses outside of PVP and it should purge player or monster/NPC based status effects. However the status effects and DOTS of siege weapons should be the exception. Purge is way to powerful from a cost and use standpoint to what it counters.

I wanted siege DOTS to be unpurgable when they increased the siege damage because I knew folks would start spamming Purge because they fixed the skill in 1.6 so that it would no longer wipe your party. It took about two weeks for folks to figure this out, and we had 2 good weeks of mostly lag free pvp until they started this purging spam just like i knew they would...had these siege DOTS not been purgable, we would have a much better lag free experience.

Yes this will mean myself and others will probably die more often, but its a small price to pay in return for the game not being a lag fest....

Wouldn't it be nice when one faction decides to bring their whole faction to one keep you can fire artillery at them and kill them instead of them stacking on the flag and lag flipping the keep with heal and purge spam?

Wouldn't it be nice we wouldn't get stuck in these garbage fights where no one can use their skills and the sound lags out....

Siege MUST be the zerg/lag blob counter..it HAS to be...This lag is unbearable....Siege needs to be that weapon that can bust these situations up when the lag gets to coming...making those DOTS unpurgable fixes this without having to nerf Barrier for Purge...were so close...small tweaks like this...it would be nearly perfect.

all our builds are OP anyways in their own right, so Siege should be our Cryptonite since were all running aorund as Superman/Wonder Woman anyways!

Nerfing Barrier and Purge skills themselves is not the answer, and it hurts other parts of the games. Making Siege DOTS unpurgable makes sense. Its a small tweak, yet it will make a big difference in the performance of this game.

this change isn't as much about gameplay as it is about performance...this is relaly the only way your going to stop the lagging nonsense that has been going on for months...the only way to abate the large groups of players in one place is by ensuring they don't stay there too long, either they win quickly or die quickly, this will reduce server lag immensely....as i said, we may all die more, but im willing to take that in return for whats best for the game itself because face it...a laggy game is fun for no one, having keeps flip because of lag while defenders are still standing on it is fun for no one....

Rook_Master

It would also help if people didn't conform to the self-destructive meta that the "elite" and "hardcore" guilds have established, which is sticking your nose up crown's butt and mindlessly spamming Impulse and Steel Tornado. With a few people purging, barriers etc, of course.

Weberda

Agree with O.P...And BUFF OIL!

RinaldoGandolphi

Oh before i forget.

there should be one Exception.

The Templar's Purifying Ritual Synergy should remove Siege DOTS. this is because:

1. It requires each individual player to activate the synergy themselves.
2. It only works for the one player who activated it, not everyone else.
3. its up to each individual player to take care of themselves instead of someone else spamming purge for them.
4. Each player can only use the synergy once before the Templar has to recast Purifying Ritual

Purifying Ritual isn't a carta blanche "Hey i'll purge those DOTS for you" each player has to take care of themselves, the Templar can cast Purifying Ritual, but its up to each person to know and use the synergy...so its not auto-pilot for them...right now its just too easy to spam Purge....at least Templar Purifying Ritual will require each person to use the Synergy themselves.

Garion

No. No. NO! What people don't seem to realise is that these ideas, however well intentioned, will only serve to exacerbate the zerging issue and discourage smaller scale play. The current siege meta already makes it far more difficult for smaller groups to take resources, keeps and outposts versus larger numbers. Hell, even open field fights are considerably more difficult for a smaller group because the larger force will always put up siege to further suppress the group they are fighting - and they can easily afford to do so.

Let's consider what the only viable counter to unpurgeable siege dots is. MORE HEALS. Which means from a raid perspective more people stacked together spamming healing springs. If they can't purge it, they will just out heal it. These people are not going to change their embedded behaviour over a change like this, they are just going to throw more bodies at it.

If you reduce the viability of smaller forces impacting the map by taking keeps etc (which is what this change will do) you only provide further encouragement for people to stick with the horde.

If ZOS truly want to counter the Zerg what they should be doing is reducing the effectiveness of defensive abilities on higher numbers and increasing the effectiveness of offensive abilities against the same.

I wanted to write more but I am on my phone. I am sure you can see what I am trying to say though.

PKMN12

Rook_Master wrote: »

It would also help if people didn't conform to the self-destructive meta that the "elite" and "hardcore" guilds have established, which is sticking your nose up crown's butt and mindlessly spamming Impulse and Steel Tornado. With a few people purging, barriers etc, of course.

if it is the best way to win, why not do it. People play PVP to WIN.

Etaniel

Your solution isn't good. People will still spam purge, because it gets rid of snares, roots like talons and sooo much more.
The purge spam will stay;

I've been wondering if the sound effect and the light effects of purge are not tampering with performance, client side and server side, so how about starting there? Instead of having some huge explosion sound change it to something softer?

Draxys

This will only hurt groups that run smaller numbers even more. Might as well do it though, ZOS have shown with every update that they just want everyone to morph from keep to keep with the entire faction.

"Guys spread out, just ignore that we are constantly implementing things that make it even more into a numbers game!"

Ghostbane

Weberda wrote: »

Agree with O.P...And BUFF OIL!

Always said taking away ground oils was a bad thing.

Sublime

Some thoughs:

• It will be muc easier to wipe bombsquads, especially when combining it with unpurgable meatbags.
• 6/7+ players can hold an objective forever, i.e. the map will become much more static.
• All builds that don't have any type of shield/instant heal are no longer solo playable (buff to NB/TP, nerf to DK, SR can shieldstack through it, assuming cloak removes it as well)

All in all a positive change imo, since it encourages spreading out and makes it easier to wipe unorganized groups. On top of that it raises the skill requirement for bombsquads and vastly increases their ult drain through increased barrier spam/healing required.

RinaldoGandolphi

Garion wrote: »

No. No. NO! What people don't seem to realise is that these ideas, however well intentioned, will only serve to exacerbate the zerging issue and discourage smaller scale play. The current siege meta already makes it far more difficult for smaller groups to take resources, keeps and outposts versus larger numbers. Hell, even open field fights are considerably more difficult for a smaller group because the larger force will always put up siege to further suppress the group they are fighting - and they can easily afford to do so.

Let's consider what the only viable counter to unpurgeable siege dots is. MORE HEALS. Which means from a raid perspective more people stacked together spamming healing springs. If they can't purge it, they will just out heal it. These people are not going to change their embedded behaviour over a change like this, they are just going to throw more bodies at it.

If you reduce the viability of smaller forces impacting the map by taking keeps etc (which is what this change will do) you only provide further encouragement for people to stick with the horde.

If ZOS truly want to counter the Zerg what they should be doing is reducing the effectiveness of defensive abilities on higher numbers and increasing the effectiveness of offensive abilities against the same.

I wanted to write more but I am on my phone. I am sure you can see what I am trying to say though.

I can understand where your going, and while true, i'll counter that.

Heals such as Breath of Life, even Healing Springs are NOT mana efficient compared to Efficient Purge...spamming them with more bodies is a losing equation every time against Efficient Purge from a cost perspective which is what we want. We want countering siege to cost more.

Healing through siege damage is not cost effiecent in comparison with Purge, so it will cost way more to stand in artillery fire and will require way more dedicated healers which means the gorup has less damage output potential.

The only other alternative is nerfing the Purge Skill itself.

Also i'll counter that non-purgable DOTS would make smaller groups kiting zergs into Chokepoints and sieging them just like we used to kite zergs into choke points and ground oil them was a viable strategy that small groups used all the time to fight back against zergs...ground oils were very effective agaisnt zergs...it was the zergs who cried and got them nerfed when in reality it was their fault for following someone into a choke point and getting oiled.

RinaldoGandolphi

Sublime wrote: »

Some thoughs:

• It will be muc easier to wipe bombsquads, especially when combining it with unpurgable meatbags.
• 6/7+ players can hold an objective forever, i.e. the map will become much more static.
• All builds that don't have any type of shield/instant heal are no longer solo playable (buff to NB/TP, nerf to DK, SR can shieldstack through it, assuming cloak removes it as well)

All in all a positive change imo, since it encourages spreading out and makes it easier to wipe unorganized groups. On top of that it raises the skill requirement for bombsquads and vastly increases their ult drain through increased barrier spam/healing required.

Exactly! it would also help the games performance out too i believe as the large concentrations of players in one place won't last as long...either win quickly or wipe quickly which should help with the red ping problems and such that has been going on.

RinaldoGandolphi

Ghostbane wrote: »

Weberda wrote: »

Agree with O.P...And BUFF OIL!

Always said taking away ground oils was a bad thing.

agreed!

Planchard

I remember when the game first came out and Radiant Aura would cause my game to crash on average about 3-5 times a night. When you activate the ability, it omits a large light display and that's when my client would freeze. Sometimes the game would freeze for 5-10 secs then catch up but other times, it would just simply freeze and never recover.

As @Ethaniel mentioned, maybe changing up the purge animation/sound is the only fix. They've made multiple changes to other casting animations so it couldn't be to hard to implement and see if it fixes it. I know they changed rapid maneuvers awhile after the game launched. You were able to see the rapids buff on everyone and now, it's just on yourself you're able to see.

Garion

Sublime wrote: »

Some thoughs:

• It will be muc easier to wipe bombsquads, especially when combining it with unpurgable meatbags.
• 6/7+ players can hold an objective forever, i.e. the map will become much more static.
• All builds that don't have any type of shield/instant heal are no longer solo playable (buff to NB/TP, nerf to DK, SR can shieldstack through it, assuming cloak removes it as well)

All in all a positive change imo, since it encourages spreading out and makes it easier to wipe unorganized groups. On top of that it raises the skill requirement for bombsquads and vastly increases their ult drain through increased barrier spam/healing required.

I will respond to your points in turn:

1. If no meatbag is used, nothing much will change. Granted if meatbags are used wiping these zergblobbers will become easier. However, it will be even easier to wipe a smaller group and therefore I am totally against this change as it is going to be much harder for smaller groups. Not a good thing.
2. I think you are over estimating the effectiveness of a smaller group if this change were to be implemented. To begin with, it's going to be virtually impossible for those 6 - 7 people to take the keep in the first instance. Of course this issue can be ignored if a larger group takes the group before them and then they defend it at a later time. What you are however forgetting is that a larger external force can also siege the smaller group. One well pleased siege from the sieging force (who will have hugely superior numbers) could wipe that group without issue. Equally, enemy players sieging the flag from outside is already a huge issue that will make holding a flag virtually impossible for a smaller group.
3. Making any class not solo playable (when some are virtually unplayable solo as it is) is NOT a good thing. It pigeonholes that class into group play, forcing them to play with the horde.

All of this ENCOURAGES zerging. Not a good idea.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

No. No. NO! What people don't seem to realise is that these ideas, however well intentioned, will only serve to exacerbate the zerging issue and discourage smaller scale play. The current siege meta already makes it far more difficult for smaller groups to take resources, keeps and outposts versus larger numbers. Hell, even open field fights are considerably more difficult for a smaller group because the larger force will always put up siege to further suppress the group they are fighting - and they can easily afford to do so.

Let's consider what the only viable counter to unpurgeable siege dots is. MORE HEALS. Which means from a raid perspective more people stacked together spamming healing springs. If they can't purge it, they will just out heal it. These people are not going to change their embedded behaviour over a change like this, they are just going to throw more bodies at it.

If you reduce the viability of smaller forces impacting the map by taking keeps etc (which is what this change will do) you only provide further encouragement for people to stick with the horde.

If ZOS truly want to counter the Zerg what they should be doing is reducing the effectiveness of defensive abilities on higher numbers and increasing the effectiveness of offensive abilities against the same.

I wanted to write more but I am on my phone. I am sure you can see what I am trying to say though.

I can understand where your going, and while true, i'll counter that.

Heals such as Breath of Life, even Healing Springs are NOT mana efficient compared to Efficient Purge...spamming them with more bodies is a losing equation every time against Efficient Purge from a cost perspective which is what we want. We want countering siege to cost more.

Healing through siege damage is not cost effiecent in comparison with Purge, so it will cost way more to stand in artillery fire and will require way more dedicated healers which means the gorup has less damage output potential.

The only other alternative is nerfing the Purge Skill itself.

Also i'll counter that non-purgable DOTS would make smaller groups kiting zergs into Chokepoints and sieging them just like we used to kite zergs into choke points and ground oil them was a viable strategy that small groups used all the time to fight back against zergs...ground oils were very effective agaisnt zergs...it was the zergs who cried and got them nerfed when in reality it was their fault for following someone into a choke point and getting oiled.

I have a sorcerer and a templar, if I am running a healing spec running out of mana is virtually a non-existent issue. When you have ~6 healers in your group - i.e. if you are a zerg / 24 man organised raid (my groups typically run with 1 - 2) it's even less of an issue! Remember that all of the stress you apply to these larger groups will also apply to smaller groups but will be increased considerably. With the current meta game, the cost of skills is virtually non-issue.

Your point on choles is also invalid unfortunately, for two reasons. Firstly to get the attention of the zerg you often have to take a resource or start sieging a keep, in both instances there is a high probability that you are going to start getting hit by siege and potentially die before you even get going. Secondly, when using choke points YOU get sieged. The use of choke points and terrain is virtually one of the only ways the smaller groups I play in can survive in the post 1.6 environment. If you implement this change staying in a choke point is impossible because people will start sieging earlier than they do already, and when they do there will be absolutely zero counter to it.

ToRelax

Oil catapult snare should be unpurgeable again, maybe meatbag heal debuff, too.
But don't make the DoTs unpurgeable.

SC0TY999

Etaniel wrote: »

Your solution isn't good. People will still spam purge, because it gets rid of snares, roots like talons and sooo much more.
The purge spam will stay;

I've been wondering if the sound effect and the light effects of purge are not tampering with performance, client side and server side, so how about starting there? Instead of having some huge explosion sound change it to something softer?

Maybe they need to implement a purge immunity like the CC immunity?

For instanced if you're purged you cannot be purged again for X amount of time.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Soulac

SC0TY999 wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Your solution isn't good. People will still spam purge, because it gets rid of snares, roots like talons and sooo much more.
The purge spam will stay;

I've been wondering if the sound effect and the light effects of purge are not tampering with performance, client side and server side, so how about starting there? Instead of having some huge explosion sound change it to something softer?

Maybe they need to implement a purge immunity like the CC immunity?

For instanced if you're purged you cannot be purged again for X amount of time.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

A disadvantage for smaller groups since you get debuffed more often than a bigger group.

IxSTALKERxI

Bad idea. Zergs can set up more siege then small groups. It encourages zerging.

The only positive change you could make to purge would be to lower the cap down to 12 targets. Same could be done for barrier, warhorn and retreating.

Lorkhan

lolol, op. ty for this thread. funny one

Rune_Relic

This is an epically bad idea.
Almost as bad as the one where people said hit unlimited players with AoE.

The notion that doing more damage to more players will kill more players normally just means those players live just as long and spend more time blocking/dodging/shielding/healing instead of doing their own damage as often.
Like we see now with wrecking blow vs shield stacking.
All you get is an arms race and not a solution to lag.

The lag is caused by all the cached damage/heal calcs and hots/dots stacking up on the server for every player.
Every skill launched has to complete or stack up in a server combat cache until completed.
The last thing you want to do is stick anything else on the combat cache pile.
The ONLY thing that will fix lag is eliminating the calculation piles so that there is no backlog generated that cant keep up with bandwidth and server load.

1. AoE Stuns with purge. This wipes all hots/dots and disables the stunned groups heal and damage abilities so they cant be spammed. vis-a-vis....the cache is wiped/ emptied for those players hit and we don't have to wait for all their numerous combat calcs to complete. Any hots/dots on other players from them also has to be wiped.
2. Time dilation. So the ticks work at half speed and half the load for instance. The server gets twice as long to do all the calcs.
3. Flow control. Drop combat calcs that exceed queue limits per player. ZOS throttles lag.
4. Simplify skills/armour/weapons. Making the calculations much less complex so the server doesn't get overloaded in large wars. ie remove all the hot/dot/stun/conditional abilities mountains on armour sets and similar.

I don't like time dilation as its a global nuke. AoE stuns with purge are local and hit the problem surgically and specifically. Flow control is an instant fix but very complex to get working based on dynamic cache measurement with client clears. ZOS cant help making things ever more complex so I cant see the "keep it simple stupid" axiom becoming common.

RinaldoGandolphi

Hey, im always open to suggestions. Please suggest in this thread a change that won't allow groups or players to stand in artillery fire and not die.

right now in 7 Light Armor i can take a direct hit from a Fire Treb and simply cast purge and survive...yet can be 1 shotted by Lethal Arrow or Wrecking blow...and folks wonder why the games fights are nothing more then laggy messes with flags in keeps flipping with multiple defenders standing on them.

This thread was an idea to get "discussions started" towards coming up with some sort of equitable solution whatever that solution may end up being. there are some good ideas, and thoughts coming out of this thread, so keep them coming. That was the threads intent.

Making only Meatbags and Oil's Cata's unpurgable is an example of a great idea! Its a good compromise middle of the road ground that I could live with and im sure many others could as well, Kudos to that! great idea!

Joy_Division

I disagree with the implication that somehow siege weapons are the answer to the "pain train" problem the currently plagues Cyrodiil. They are too slow to fire, too inaccurate, and too vulnerable to be viable weapons against these pain trains excepting in ideal circumstances. I believe making them unpurgable will just annoy people who are not a part of these pain trains as we don not have our own personal barrier and purifying ritual battery to give us some counter should we happen to get hit.

In general I read a lot of posts claiming there was a time when lag was noticeably better than it is now. No it wasn't. It drove guilds away from the game a long time before people spammed meteors or poured ground oils and in 1.4 / 1.5 it was called "thornlag" or something like that for a reason. If there was a time when the lag was bearable it was way back in April 2014 when few of us had AOEs to spam and these pain train guilds had no quite established the meta of stack on crown and spam X skill.

ZoS needs to stop asking us to spread out and provide the sort of tools that are staples in every RPG I ever played with to deal with a blob of enemies.

RadioheadSh0t

No... This would be a terrible idea, and in no way will alleviate lag. Groups won't stop running in groups of you take away purge, the purge bug proved that.

Siege is plenty strong right now, cold stone trebs hit for 20k without a dot. DOTs have to be removable, and Templars can't be the only means of cleansing in PvP.

frozywozy

Great idea once again. No matter the amount of people who claim that "buffing sieges" would suit better the bigger raids, I still strongly disagree. If you think that sieges cannot rotate fast enough to be effective against larger groups, you are just not good enough to use them. If you think that people would adjust to the unpurgable siege dots and get more healers, then once again you are wrong. Purge is a must to remove snares / roots so people would have to keep purge while also getting more healers. In the end, they lose some key abilities to compensate and also alot of magicka and alot of potential damage. If you already have a group running 6healers, you are one of the rare groups doing it. Most groups have alot of templars but are those really full time healers? Lot of templars like to dps nowadays so if your group has 6 full time healers, highfives but it is definitely not the same for most groups out there.

Also, most people who complain that this solution would only benefit the larger groups, you guys are all reffering to open field battles. We don't care about open field battles. Open field battles won't win a faction the campaign. What matter is the situations where one of your keep / outpost / ressource is under attack and you are severely outnumbered. You need to be able to buy yourself some time before the reinforcements arrive. Inside a keep or outpost inner, it is very easy to deploy siege and be efficient with it (if the siege can deal damage). The larger group pushing on flags will practically never drop any siege as they push on flags to counter your sieges already deployed (90% of the time) so don't tell me that zergs will benefit more from it, that is not true. When enemy group pushes on the flag and you have oil above or sieges aiming at them from the transit, large groups would not have any other solution but to clear the roof first (buying you time) and to get their group out of the flag to stop you from sieging them from the transit (once again buying you time).

So in the end, it doesn't matter if your 6-7 small group get rekt by a zerg dropping more sieges during an open field battle. It was your mistake to engage them without obstacles to LoS or without choke points to squeeze them in with sieges. What matter are keeps / outpost defenses. Those should be in favor of the lower numbers, always.

http://www.twitch.tv/frozywozy/c/5936579

http://www.twitch.tv/frozywozy/c/5905064

Bouvin

Proxmity Detonation is supposed to be the big zerg buster I thought.

Except.. the zergs are now doing Proxy Bombs, where everyone casts it, and they obliterate anything they run through.

Quite funny how all the "zerg busting" tactics are actually enable zergs.

If ESO wants to bust zergs, they need to make AP fall off exponentially by number of people in group. Because the motivaation for zergs isn't beating other players.. it's beating other players and getting lots of AP for doing so.

1 - 4 People = Full AP
5 - 8 = 50% AP
9 - 12 = 15% AP
13 - 24 = 5% AP
24+ (in area, grouped or not) = 1% AP.

DROP THE AP ZERGS GET AND THE ZERGS WILL BREAK UP.

The only reason we see all the zergs now is its the fastest way to farm ap. Remove the AP CARROT and zergs will disperse.

I can't believe no one sees the true issue here after all this time...

frozywozy

Bouvin wrote: »

Proxmity Detonation is supposed to be the big zerg buster I thought.

Except.. the zergs are now doing Proxy Bombs, where everyone casts it, and they obliterate anything they run through.

Quite funny how all the "zerg busting" tactics are actually enable zergs.

If ESO wants to bust zergs, they need to make AP fall off exponentially by number of people in group. Because the motivaation for zergs isn't beating other players.. it's beating other players and getting lots of AP for doing so.

1 - 4 People = Full AP
5 - 8 = 50% AP
9 - 12 = 15% AP
13 - 24 = 5% AP
24+ (in area, grouped or not) = 1% AP.

DROP THE AP ZERGS GET AND THE ZERGS WILL BREAK UP.

The only reason we see all the zergs now is its the fastest way to farm ap. Remove the AP CARROT and zergs will disperse.

I can't believe no one sees the true issue here after all this time...

The goal is not to discourage people from grouping in in a large raid. The goal is to give us a possibility to kill them.

themdogesbite

Making siege dots unpurgable would be stupid and lagg would still be there even if your suggested change was implemented, meteor and caltrops are 2 of the main culprits of lagg.

Bouvin

frozywozy wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Proxmity Detonation is supposed to be the big zerg buster I thought.

Except.. the zergs are now doing Proxy Bombs, where everyone casts it, and they obliterate anything they run through.

Quite funny how all the "zerg busting" tactics are actually enable zergs.

If ESO wants to bust zergs, they need to make AP fall off exponentially by number of people in group. Because the motivaation for zergs isn't beating other players.. it's beating other players and getting lots of AP for doing so.

1 - 4 People = Full AP
5 - 8 = 50% AP
9 - 12 = 15% AP
13 - 24 = 5% AP
24+ (in area, grouped or not) = 1% AP.

DROP THE AP ZERGS GET AND THE ZERGS WILL BREAK UP.

The only reason we see all the zergs now is its the fastest way to farm ap. Remove the AP CARROT and zergs will disperse.

I can't believe no one sees the true issue here after all this time...

The goal is not to discourage people from grouping in in a large raid. The goal is to give us a possibility to kill them.

You can kill them by forming another large raid.

See the issues, and shown with Proxy Detonation, is that zergs can also use anti-zerg tactics.

If you buff siege, the zergs will just all use siege.

Rather than band-aid the core issue, solve the core issue. WHich is the real incentive to ZERG.

I guarantee, if people could make more AP in 4-8 man groups, they wouldn't zerg any more.

God_flakes

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Hey, im always open to suggestions. Please suggest in this thread a change that won't allow groups or players to stand in artillery fire and not die.

right now in 7 Light Armor i can take a direct hit from a Fire Treb and simply cast purge and survive...yet can be 1 shotted by Lethal Arrow or Wrecking blow...and folks wonder why the games fights are nothing more then laggy messes with flags in keeps flipping with multiple defenders standing on them.

This thread was an idea to get "discussions started" towards coming up with some sort of equitable solution whatever that solution may end up being. there are some good ideas, and thoughts coming out of this thread, so keep them coming. That was the threads intent.

Making only Meatbags and Oil's Cata's unpurgable is an example of a great idea! Its a good compromise middle of the road ground that I could live with and im sure many others could as well, Kudos to that! great idea!

Yeah the light armor nerf is disgraceful. It's rude. 1.6 almost made me quit totally. If it weren't for the ERP I would have been long done and gone.

Wreuntzylla

I stepped into the non-veteran PvP for the first time last week and there were huge battles. And no lag. None. At least a hundred players fighting it out over a keep with no lag. Normal tactics fail because you will receive damage...

I suggest ZoS figure out what the difference is between non-veteran and veteran PvP servers.

One thing I noticed is that I was the only one running meteor.