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ZOS, please verify that Justice System will be 100% optional for provisioners

  • Cuyler
    Cuyler
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    Tandor wrote: »
    My concern about looting containers for e.g. provisioning mats is that I don't have a problem with being caught by a NPC guard and being pursued for stealing, as per ES games, but as someone with no interest in PvP I have no desire to open the wrong container and find myself enabled for PvP.

    I assume that owned containers (as well as NPCs) will have some kind of indication that they are part of the justice system so that they can be avoided if desired. I certainly hope that's the case.

    Items that are considered stealing (as in past ES games) show in red, much like the important "quest changing" responses in the discussion options when questing in PvE.

    In past ES games it was ok to open the container to look at the items as long as you didn't goes as far to take anything. I assume the same applies here.
    Edited by Cuyler on December 8, 2014 5:05PM
    Guild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
    CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
    "How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]
  • Potenza
    Potenza
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    Cuyler wrote: »
    They probly are not going to add more barrels and crates in the game to accommodate the justice system and are going to utilize the existing containers. So us provisioners are going to have to be careful. I just know Im gonna get nailed stealing by accident with this system. Not looking forward to it.

    If you've ever played an ES game before this is nothing new aka non issue

    Yes I have played ES games before. However, ESO is different, and we are accustomed to playing it a certain way. Now they are going to change it, so it can cause a problem for provisioners who are accustomed to playing it a certain way.
  • Enodoc
    Enodoc
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    Tandor wrote: »
    My concern about looting containers for e.g. provisioning mats is that I don't have a problem with being caught by a NPC guard and being pursued for stealing, as per ES games, but as someone with no interest in PvP I have no desire to open the wrong container and find myself enabled for PvP.

    I assume that owned containers (as well as NPCs) will have some kind of indication that they are part of the justice system so that they can be avoided if desired. I certainly hope that's the case.
    That's a good point, and makes me wonder whether the PvP will scale based on bounty; you shouldn't be able to kill someone just because they stole an apple.

    NPC guards will try to arrest someone first; perhaps you only get flagged for PvP if you flee the guards? Or if you're at a certain level of Heat where the guards do not bother trying to arrest you?
    Edited by Enodoc on December 8, 2014 5:06PM
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  • Gix
    Gix
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    Tandor wrote: »
    as someone with no interest in PvP I have no desire to open the wrong container and find myself enabled for PvP.
    Why do you assume that you'll automatically get flagged for PvP by stealing random junk from containers?

    You only get flagged for PvP if you get caught and refuse to pay the fines... in which case, you'd still be fighting super powerful guards to begin with. The PvP mechanic is to dissuade players from exploiting the combat AI.
  • Kraven
    Kraven
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    Tandor wrote: »
    My concern about looting containers for e.g. provisioning mats is that I don't have a problem with being caught by a NPC guard and being pursued for stealing, as per ES games, but as someone with no interest in PvP I have no desire to open the wrong container and find myself enabled for PvP.

    I assume that owned containers (as well as NPCs) will have some kind of indication that they are part of the justice system so that they can be avoided if desired. I certainly hope that's the case.

    Justice is a toggle. On or Off.
    1.6 will not contain the PvP aspect of Justice but eventually that will be added.

    So you're fine for 1.6 but when they add in the final pieces of the puzzle and the PvP part you can simply disable justice. Doing so means you won't be able to pick those locks, open those containers or rob those chests but that's the choice to make.

    People are bound to complain that they want to steal from that chest in the castle without having to worry about PvP. But people have this mindset that actions shouldn't have any consequence at all...
    V14 - IMPERIAL NIGHTBLADE - DPS/TANK
    V13 - BRETON SORCERER - HEALS/DPS
    V2 - REDGUARD DRAGONKNIGHT - MELEE DPS
    V1 - BRETON TEMPLAR - TANK/DPS

    to be continued... Nevermind, no longer "to be continued"
  • Cuyler
    Cuyler
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    Cuyler wrote: »
    They probly are not going to add more barrels and crates in the game to accommodate the justice system and are going to utilize the existing containers. So us provisioners are going to have to be careful. I just know Im gonna get nailed stealing by accident with this system. Not looking forward to it.

    If you've ever played an ES game before this is nothing new aka non issue

    Yes I have played ES games before. However, ESO is different, and we are accustomed to playing it a certain way. Now they are going to change it, so it can cause a problem for provisioners who are accustomed to playing it a certain way.

    If you really have played any ES game before you should have been accustomed to having to deal with the "stealing" issue. Coming to ESO where everything was lootable should have felt foreign to you.

    This should have been in the game from day one (In my opinion they should not have released the game with out it). You had to know this was coming eventually and they change things all the time. You were expecting something else?

    Edit: Speeling
    Edited by Cuyler on December 8, 2014 5:29PM
    Guild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
    CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
    "How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]
  • Tandor
    Tandor
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    Tandor wrote: »
    My concern about looting containers for e.g. provisioning mats is that I don't have a problem with being caught by a NPC guard and being pursued for stealing, as per ES games, but as someone with no interest in PvP I have no desire to open the wrong container and find myself enabled for PvP.

    I assume that owned containers (as well as NPCs) will have some kind of indication that they are part of the justice system so that they can be avoided if desired. I certainly hope that's the case.

    1.6 will introduce no PVP. The Justice system will be entirely PVE at the start.

    At the start, yes, but not thereafter. I wish there would then be an option to restrict it to PvE so that those who want open world PvP can use the justice system to that end, while those who don't can avoid it while enjoying the PvE aspects of the justice system as per the ES games.
  • Potenza
    Potenza
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    Cuyler wrote: »
    Cuyler wrote: »
    They probly are not going to add more barrels and crates in the game to accommodate the justice system and are going to utilize the existing containers. So us provisioners are going to have to be careful. I just know Im gonna get nailed stealing by accident with this system. Not looking forward to it.

    If you've ever played an ES game before this is nothing new aka non issue

    Yes I have played ES games before. However, ESO is different, and we are accustomed to playing it a certain way. Now they are going to change it, so it can cause a problem for provisioners who are accustomed to playing it a certain way.

    If you really have played any ES game before you should have been accustomed to having to deal with the "stealing" issue. Coming to ESO where everything was lootable should have felt foreign to you.

    This should have been in the game from day one. You had to know this was coming eventually and they change things all the time. You were expecting something else?

    But it has not been in the game since day one. Its going to be a change in gameplay. As long as there is a toggle to opt out I don't see it as a problem.
  • Welka
    Welka
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    This topic is being bookmarked in my "lol topics" folder straight away. Thanks OP for being so funny :)
  • Nihil
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  • TequilaFire
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    If it is red don't take it.
    I recently noticed Wayrest guards have 147K+ hp. lol
  • Koensol
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    Can I please get the loot from the dungeon without having to fight the boss? .... Seriously OP, what logic is that.
  • AlnilamE
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    Because, if you read my signature, all I do is PvP and stock up potions and food in order to PvP. The "stocking" process is not very long right now, which means I can get pretty quickly to PvP. Making me take longer to restock due to some stupid new system I can't opt out of = making me do !@#$%^ work in order to get to the fun.

    I think it will be fairly easy to find good looting spots for provisioning. There are a ton of bandit camps or dungeons all over the place that are full of containers. All you have to do once the new system is out is scout out a few convenient locations in a zone of the appropriate level and just go straight to those when you want to stock up.

    I don't think it's going to be an issue at all.
    The Moot Councillor
  • Lukati_K
    Lukati_K
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    Koensol wrote: »
    Can I please get the loot from the dungeon without having to fight the boss? .... Seriously OP, what logic is that.

    Why would you ever want to face any sort of adversity or any situation which requires a bit of critical thinking and planning? I'd much rather have a system in place where I can easily circumnavigate any difficult situation the game and its devs might have in store for me, just by checking a box in my settings.
  • Audigy
    Audigy
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    Enodoc wrote: »
    I agree, confirmation is needed, because I actually was assuming it meant the opposite; ie, if you opt-out of the Justice System, those barrels and crates would just not be interactable at all.

    However, it may not be as bad as you think. Only containers at stalls and within houses and stores are likely to be "owned", whereas barrels and crates at the docks, around the marketplace (but away from the stalls) would not be. Also, the barrels and crates within delves, caves and ruins would not be owned either.

    Well,

    if you do a dungeon then you cant steal as those are NPCs that you actually have to kill. If you walk through Tamriel and find a barrel or chest with nobody close then this wont be stealing either as they don't belong to anyone and are abandoned.

    However,

    in towns you will be stealing as the stuff there belongs to vendors, house owners or shop keepers.

    Most buildings will be locked anyways so you can not just get in there and farm desks anymore, which is good and more realistic.
  • ZOS_MSchroeder
    ZOS_MSchroeder
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    We can confirm that you will NOT have to steal in order to provision. The Justice System and the Provisioning Revamp are both coming in Update 6, which means that you’ll have lots of ways to acquire your provisioning ingredients:
    • As before, you can take items from furniture, baskets, and the many containers found throughout Tamriel. While many of these will be owned by someone – and thus, subject to Justice – not all of them will be. If you take items from an unowned container, those items will be yours, free and clear. You’ll be able to tell at a glance whether taking from the container is theft or not, just like in previous Elder Scrolls games.
    • Similarly, the individual ingredients you find on tables and in the world will be available, and though some will be owned, not all will be. If an apple is sitting on a table and is not owned by someone, then you can take it and use it in your recipes without consequence. Again, you’ll be able to tell at a glance whether taking the item is theft or not.
    • Grocers, Brewers, and Cooks have had their stores updated. From them, you’ll be able to purchase all the ingredients you need for any recipe (excepting, of course, rare ingredients).
    • Animals in the wilderness will drop meat that you can use to cook with, as well. If you need meat, you can simply go hunt wild deer or rabbits. Of course, if you WANT to break the law, then livestock animals like cows are also available for illicit slaughter.
    • Similarly, you’ll be able to fillet the many common fish you find from fishing holes, and use their meat in recipes.
    • Hirelings will still deliver materials to you on a regular basis. In fact, they’ll be delivering larger amounts of materials than before.
    • Provisioning Writs will continue to provide large quantities of materials to whoever is willing to work for them.

    Between all these sources, we feel that both ne’er-do-well and saintly provisioners will have a wide variety of options for procuring their ingredients.
    Michael Schroeder
    Senior Systems Designer - The Elder Scrolls Online
    Staff Post
  • Merrak
    Merrak
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    I asked the question during the ESO Live from last Friday. Look for the question from Forgebreaker. The answer from the dev that Gina was interviewing was that if you are not participating in the system, or toggle it off, everything remains the same as it is now for you.
    Merrak | Templar Main
    The Descendants | NA Server | Daggerfall Covenant
  • Tandor
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    MSchroeder wrote: »

    Between all these sources, we feel that both ne’er-do-well and saintly provisioners will have a wide variety of options for procuring their ingredients.

    Thanks for that detailed explanation @MSchroeder, greatly appreciated.

  • Tandor
    Tandor
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    Kraven wrote: »

    People are bound to complain that they want to steal from that chest in the castle without having to worry about PvP. But people have this mindset that actions shouldn't have any consequence at all...

    You're confusing PvE consequences, which non-PvPer's are perfectly happy with as a part of any Justice System, with PvP consequences which is a different matter altogether.
  • Merlin13KAGL
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    There will be plenty of free mats to be had, and it won't take a rocket scientist to figure out what's fair game and what's obviously owned.

    It's not as if there is any difficulty finding mats now.

    If you do opt out, you should simply not have the option to loot those containers or they should show up empty.

    Opting out shouldn't give you free run without consequence.

    Looking in the container was generally ok, if it wasn't a chest.

    Taking from it, item likely outlined in Red, another story. Your opt out will consists of turning off Autoloot for a bit.
    Edited by Merlin13KAGL on December 8, 2014 6:47PM
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

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  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    I'm more concerned with thieves having a better chance of gathering things like recipes and motifs and those of us that aren't going to steal hoping to randomly find one out of the random trunk we come across out of a city. If the locations to find them stay as they are now and trunks/dressers/cabinets in cities have to be stolen from, then thieves will pretty much own the market on them. I can count the times on one finger that someone in my group has found a good item like that randomly in the wild, but passing through a home or castle you can check a bunch of containers and have pretty good luck.

    Edit: also have to add I'm even more concerned that they ignored this issue when I asked it for ESO live (and I asked it in the pre-live thread here, early and wasn't the only one to ask it). They talked the normal opt-in stuff they I already gathered from previous talk, but wouldn't clarify how this issue would wash out.
    Edited by xaraan on December 8, 2014 7:32PM
    -- @xaraan --
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    AD • NA • PC
  • Darlgon
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    Islyn wrote: »

    Where is this stated as fact rather than the 'an idea we had but have not committed to yet' thread on these forums?

    Have source? I would like to read it if so - because a lot of people say the above but I have not seen anything definite stated by ZOS yet.

    Stop being a whiner and WATCH THE ESO LIVE that the poster above linked. \

    Actually, practically every comment in this thread either came from that show or shows you never took the time to find out, just came to the forums to wave your pitchforks.
    Edited by Darlgon on December 8, 2014 7:00PM
    Power level to CP160 in a week:
    Where is the end game? You just played it.
    Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
    Where is new content? Sigh.
  • onlinegamer1
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    MSchroeder wrote: »
    We can confirm that you will NOT have to steal in order to provision. The Justice System and the Provisioning Revamp are both coming in Update 6, which means that you’ll have lots of ways to acquire your provisioning ingredients:
    • As before, you can take items from furniture, baskets, and the many containers found throughout Tamriel. While many of these will be owned by someone – and thus, subject to Justice – not all of them will be. If you take items from an unowned container, those items will be yours, free and clear. You’ll be able to tell at a glance whether taking from the container is theft or not, just like in previous Elder Scrolls games.
    • Similarly, the individual ingredients you find on tables and in the world will be available, and though some will be owned, not all will be. If an apple is sitting on a table and is not owned by someone, then you can take it and use it in your recipes without consequence. Again, you’ll be able to tell at a glance whether taking the item is theft or not.
    • Grocers, Brewers, and Cooks have had their stores updated. From them, you’ll be able to purchase all the ingredients you need for any recipe (excepting, of course, rare ingredients).
    • Animals in the wilderness will drop meat that you can use to cook with, as well. If you need meat, you can simply go hunt wild deer or rabbits. Of course, if you WANT to break the law, then livestock animals like cows are also available for illicit slaughter.
    • Similarly, you’ll be able to fillet the many common fish you find from fishing holes, and use their meat in recipes.
    • Hirelings will still deliver materials to you on a regular basis. In fact, they’ll be delivering larger amounts of materials than before.
    • Provisioning Writs will continue to provide large quantities of materials to whoever is willing to work for them.

    Between all these sources, we feel that both ne’er-do-well and saintly provisioners will have a wide variety of options for procuring their ingredients.

    So, what you're saying is, we'll all be cancelling our accounts UNLESS the speed at which we get our key ingredients for purple food is effectively (with the changes) the same speed we get them now.

    If its considerably slower to get the same amount of these ingredients, will ZOS consider that a bug, or will you intentionally be making it slower to get them?
  • Ysne58
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    Wait. Will the justice system be opt in or opt out? @ZOS_GinaBruno‌
  • onlinegamer1
    onlinegamer1
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    MSchroeder wrote: »
    We can confirm that you will NOT have to steal in order to provision.

    That wasn't the question. The question was, will the Justice system be optional (specifically, a setting we can turn on and off)?
  • kongkim
    kongkim
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    MSchroeder wrote: »
    We can confirm that you will NOT have to steal in order to provision. The Justice System and the Provisioning Revamp are both coming in Update 6, which means that you’ll have lots of ways to acquire your provisioning ingredients:
    • As before, you can take items from furniture, baskets, and the many containers found throughout Tamriel. While many of these will be owned by someone – and thus, subject to Justice – not all of them will be. If you take items from an unowned container, those items will be yours, free and clear. You’ll be able to tell at a glance whether taking from the container is theft or not, just like in previous Elder Scrolls games.
    • Similarly, the individual ingredients you find on tables and in the world will be available, and though some will be owned, not all will be. If an apple is sitting on a table and is not owned by someone, then you can take it and use it in your recipes without consequence. Again, you’ll be able to tell at a glance whether taking the item is theft or not.
    • Grocers, Brewers, and Cooks have had their stores updated. From them, you’ll be able to purchase all the ingredients you need for any recipe (excepting, of course, rare ingredients).
    • Animals in the wilderness will drop meat that you can use to cook with, as well. If you need meat, you can simply go hunt wild deer or rabbits. Of course, if you WANT to break the law, then livestock animals like cows are also available for illicit slaughter.
    • Similarly, you’ll be able to fillet the many common fish you find from fishing holes, and use their meat in recipes.
    • Hirelings will still deliver materials to you on a regular basis. In fact, they’ll be delivering larger amounts of materials than before.
    • Provisioning Writs will continue to provide large quantities of materials to whoever is willing to work for them.

    Between all these sources, we feel that both ne’er-do-well and saintly provisioners will have a wide variety of options for procuring their ingredients.

    So, what you're saying is, we'll all be cancelling our accounts UNLESS the speed at which we get our key ingredients for purple food is effectively (with the changes) the same speed we get them now.

    If its considerably slower to get the same amount of these ingredients, will ZOS consider that a bug, or will you intentionally be making it slower to get them?

    LOL. Can i have your stuff :D

    @MSchroeder Sounds really cool. Looking so much forward to this patch.
    Edited by kongkim on December 8, 2014 7:37PM
  • ItsMeToo
    ItsMeToo
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    MSchroeder wrote: »
    We can confirm that you will NOT have to steal in order to provision.

    That wasn't the question. The question was, will the Justice system be optional (specifically, a setting we can turn on and off)?

    yes
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  • Jayne_Doe
    Jayne_Doe
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    xaraan wrote: »
    I'm more concerned with thieves having a better chance of gathering things like recipes and motifs and those of us that aren't going to steal hoping to randomly find one out of the random trunk we come across out of a city. If the locations to find them stay as they are now and trunks/dressers/cabinets in cities have to be stolen from, then thieves will pretty much own the market on them. I can count the times on one finger that someone in my group has found a good item like that randomly in the wild, but passing through a home or castle you can check a bunch of containers and have pretty good luck.

    This is also something that came to my mind while reading this thread. The problem with a game like ESO, is that you cannot purchase recipes or motifs and most ingredients (although it looks like you'll be able to with the revamped provisioning, except for, of course, rare ingredients). When you have to rely on looting to find a recipe to cook with, of course you're going to want to have the maximum amount of containers in which to find said recipe and its ingredients.

    It looks like the revamped provisioning will take care of the ingredients, but if you still have to hunt for recipes, and most of the recipe containers are in houses and castles and inns, then it would seem that you will have less opportunity to find them. I'm not saying I don't want consequences, and am fine with NPCs now owning things. But, ZOS should then increase the drop rate for items that are only obtainable by looting (or spending exorbitant amounts at a guild trader). I think someone mentioned them reducing the amount of junk loot, which would also help.

    Basically, if you've put in place a system (provisioning) that requires looting in order to succeed (you need to loot recipes and still need to loot rare ingredients), then reduce the opportunity for acquiring the necessary components to craft, I can see why people are concerned. But, if they reduce junk loot and increase the likelihood of finding recipes (NOT dramatically), then it should be fine.
  • Nestor
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    xaraan wrote: »
    I'm more concerned with thieves having a better chance of gathering things like recipes and motifs and those of us that aren't going to steal hoping to

    I wonder what this will do to the prices of Motifs and Recipes. As it stands now, most of them I find are in containers in places like banks and manor houses. If these containers become owned, then the prices are going to skyrocket.

    Now I wonder if I should sell the 30 extra blue motifs I have or not.

    Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.

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  • kongkim
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    Jayne_Doe wrote: »
    xaraan wrote: »
    I'm more concerned with thieves having a better chance of gathering things like recipes and motifs and those of us that aren't going to steal hoping to randomly find one out of the random trunk we come across out of a city. If the locations to find them stay as they are now and trunks/dressers/cabinets in cities have to be stolen from, then thieves will pretty much own the market on them. I can count the times on one finger that someone in my group has found a good item like that randomly in the wild, but passing through a home or castle you can check a bunch of containers and have pretty good luck.

    This is also something that came to my mind while reading this thread. The problem with a game like ESO, is that you cannot purchase recipes or motifs and most ingredients (although it looks like you'll be able to with the revamped provisioning, except for, of course, rare ingredients). When you have to rely on looting to find a recipe to cook with, of course you're going to want to have the maximum amount of containers in which to find said recipe and its ingredients.

    It looks like the revamped provisioning will take care of the ingredients, but if you still have to hunt for recipes, and most of the recipe containers are in houses and castles and inns, then it would seem that you will have less opportunity to find them. I'm not saying I don't want consequences, and am fine with NPCs now owning things. But, ZOS should then increase the drop rate for items that are only obtainable by looting (or spending exorbitant amounts at a guild trader). I think someone mentioned them reducing the amount of junk loot, which would also help.

    Basically, if you've put in place a system (provisioning) that requires looting in order to succeed (you need to loot recipes and still need to loot rare ingredients), then reduce the opportunity for acquiring the necessary components to craft, I can see why people are concerned. But, if they reduce junk loot and increase the likelihood of finding recipes (NOT dramatically), then it should be fine.

    When stealing things you also run a risk to be seen. So ofc. it has to be easier to get what you like this way. bit again with a risk of loosing it all if they catch you.
    If the drop rate is higher no one will steal stuff and it will break the system.
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