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The wider implications of large scale duping
Magischzwei
✭✭✭
There is an element to every MMO that is subscription based, an element that is defining and valiantly defended by all its supporters - the Longevity.
What happened in this Guild Bank duping Fiasco might very well be killer for a large amount of people for these things. To understand this you need to understand all the large scale elements that make a game gain longevity - and the effects of possible large scale duping has on them.
PVP Progression
This one is easy. VR players with full legendary sets and ill-gotten gains from duping will dominate and have massive advantage over normal people for until the next expansion to come. This also connects to indirect beneficiarys from this incidents and, even to a lesser extent, to the PvE side of the fiaso - more on that later.
God forbid people can also, and actually, completly invalidate and bypass the main element of the PvP System right now - the siege weapons. How much can you compete with a raid with infinite siege weapons and forward camps at their disposal? You can't. This is especially devastating.
Unfair advantage like this is killer for a competitive system like this.
PVE Progression
People with gains from the duping might very well already have the best equipment in the game, and might very well have steamrolled through the veteran and dungeon content by now because they could bypass the balance element of this entirely - by the use of full legendary sets and enchantments when the game clearly wasn't balanced for people to have that. Future content, once released, will be a blitz for these people too - as it will not be and is not balanced on you having to have the very best gear to get there.
Crafting Skills
Wether it be buying items to deconstruct or duping the materials to craft stuff outright - people can entirely bypass crafting progression with the duping of items and gold.
Secondary Beneficators
These people will be extremly hard to track and some of them will even be unknowing of their status, and the effects they cause on the game is just as bad.
Hiding the Evidence
Can be done very easily and on multiple levels. Wether it is spending duped gold, selling duped items, laundering stuff over multiple accounts, hiding it in pending mail, pending auction house retrievals, dead guilds, etc. pp. You name it. There is absolutely no way to track all major consequences emanating from this.
Hell, even the accelerated progression of people due to dropped market prices will have severe negative impacts on the game's future.
The main issue is in a game like TESO, where EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME is compromised by this, and a bug that has supposedly been PRESENT SINCE CLOSED BETA, the effects of something like this are of an unheard of magnitude and will require drastic steps to remedy.
As solution I can really only see them doing a complete rollback to before the bug existed for everyone, that meaning, since this is apparently a bug since closed
beta, a complete relaunch.
I feel this way because there will be more people affected later down the line realising they cannot compete with duping beneficiaries in ANY aspect of the game then there will be pissed people now.
EDIT: Topic updated with more input from others, thanks people
Edited by Magischzwei on April 18, 2014 2:29PM What happened in this Guild Bank duping Fiasco might very well be killer for a large amount of people for these things. To understand this you need to understand all the large scale elements that make a game gain longevity - and the effects of possible large scale duping has on them.
PVP Progression
This one is easy. VR players with full legendary sets and ill-gotten gains from duping will dominate and have massive advantage over normal people for until the next expansion to come. This also connects to indirect beneficiarys from this incidents and, even to a lesser extent, to the PvE side of the fiaso - more on that later.
God forbid people can also, and actually, completly invalidate and bypass the main element of the PvP System right now - the siege weapons. How much can you compete with a raid with infinite siege weapons and forward camps at their disposal? You can't. This is especially devastating.
Unfair advantage like this is killer for a competitive system like this.
PVE Progression
People with gains from the duping might very well already have the best equipment in the game, and might very well have steamrolled through the veteran and dungeon content by now because they could bypass the balance element of this entirely - by the use of full legendary sets and enchantments when the game clearly wasn't balanced for people to have that. Future content, once released, will be a blitz for these people too - as it will not be and is not balanced on you having to have the very best gear to get there.
Crafting Skills
Wether it be buying items to deconstruct or duping the materials to craft stuff outright - people can entirely bypass crafting progression with the duping of items and gold.
Secondary Beneficators
These people will be extremly hard to track and some of them will even be unknowing of their status, and the effects they cause on the game is just as bad.
Hiding the Evidence
Can be done very easily and on multiple levels. Wether it is spending duped gold, selling duped items, laundering stuff over multiple accounts, hiding it in pending mail, pending auction house retrievals, dead guilds, etc. pp. You name it. There is absolutely no way to track all major consequences emanating from this.
Hell, even the accelerated progression of people due to dropped market prices will have severe negative impacts on the game's future.
The main issue is in a game like TESO, where EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME is compromised by this, and a bug that has supposedly been PRESENT SINCE CLOSED BETA, the effects of something like this are of an unheard of magnitude and will require drastic steps to remedy.
As solution I can really only see them doing a complete rollback to before the bug existed for everyone, that meaning, since this is apparently a bug since closed
beta, a complete relaunch.
I feel this way because there will be more people affected later down the line realising they cannot compete with duping beneficiaries in ANY aspect of the game then there will be pissed people now.
EDIT: Topic updated with more input from others, thanks people
10
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Goldie✭✭✭✭✭Magischzwei wrote: »There is an element to every MMO that is subscription based, an element that is defining and valiantly defended by all its supporters - the Longevity.
What happened in this Guild Bank duping Fiasco might very well be killer for a large amount of people for these things. To understand this you need to understand all the large scale elements that make a game gain longevity - and the effects of possible large scale duping has on them.
PVP Progression
This one is easy. VR players with full legendary sets and ill-gotten gains from duping will dominate and have massive advantage over normal people for until the next expansion to come. This also connects to indirect beneficiarys from this incidents and, even to a lesser extent, to the PvE side of the fiaso - more on that later.
Unfair advantage like this is killer for a competitive system like this.
PVE Progression
People with gains from the duping might very well already have the best equipment in the game, and might very well have steamrolled through the veteran and dungeon content by now because they could bypass the balance element of this entirely - by the use of full legendary sets and enchantments when the game clearly wasn't balanced for people to have that. Future content, once released, will be a blitz for these people too - as it will not be and is not balanced on you having to have the very best gear to get there.
Crafting Skills
Wether it be buying items to deconstruct or duping the materials to craft stuff outright - people can entirely bypass crafting progression with the duping of items and gold.
Secondary Beneficators
These people will be extremly hard to track and some of them will even be unknowing of their status, and the effects they cause on the game is just as bad.
As solution I can really only see them doing a complete rollback to before the bug existed for everyone, that meaning, since this is apparently a bug since closed beta, a complete relaunch.
A complete rollback would make sense, but how many people would walk away from the game? I saw the youtube video the guy posted, showing off that he could dupe items and I hope he gets smacked with the ban hammer right across his basement dwelling, pie hole!
"Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves" - M'aiq the Liar2 -
Magischzwei✭✭✭I feel more people are going to be affected if they notice months later they have no way of competing with duping beneficiaries.
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GrundelWolfe✭✭I don't know if I would continue playing if they did a complete reset/rollback. I've put a lot of time into reaching VR2.
It's bad enough that the only content for veteran ranks right now is to do the other alliance quests. Having to restart would be miserable.0 -
otomodachi✭✭✭Magischzwei wrote: »There is an element to every MMO that is subscription based, an element that is defining and valiantly defended by all its supporters - the Longevity.
What happened in this Guild Bank duping Fiasco might very well be killer for a large amount of people for these things. To understand this you need to understand all the large scale elements that make a game gain longevity - and the effects of possible large scale duping has on them.
PVP Progression
This one is easy. VR players with full legendary sets and ill-gotten gains from duping will dominate and have massive advantage over normal people for until the next expansion to come. This also connects to indirect beneficiarys from this incidents and, even to a lesser extent, to the PvE side of the fiaso - more on that later.
Unfair advantage like this is killer for a competitive system like this.
PVE Progression
People with gains from the duping might very well already have the best equipment in the game, and might very well have steamrolled through the veteran and dungeon content by now because they could bypass the balance element of this entirely - by the use of full legendary sets and enchantments when the game clearly wasn't balanced for people to have that. Future content, once released, will be a blitz for these people too - as it will not be and is not balanced on you having to have the very best gear to get there.
Crafting Skills
Wether it be buying items to deconstruct or duping the materials to craft stuff outright - people can entirely bypass crafting progression with the duping of items and gold.
Secondary Beneficators
These people will be extremly hard to track and some of them will even be unknowing of their status, and the effects they cause on the game is just as bad.
As solution I can really only see them doing a complete rollback to before the bug existed for everyone, that meaning, since this is apparently a bug since closed beta, a complete relaunch.
I just want to point out the bigger issue is duped seige equipment. As someone is inevitably going to roll in and point this out because they only read the OP, I wonder if you'd consider adding this to that part.
Legendary player gear isn't that big a boost, it's a boost, but the consensus from what *I* have personally seen on other forums is that the seige EQ is the big dealbreaker. And enchanting skill levels. What do you gain by criticizing a CSR complaint?1 -
otomodachi✭✭✭Magischzwei wrote: »There is an element to every MMO that is subscription based, an element that is defining and valiantly defended by all its supporters - the Longevity.
What happened in this Guild Bank duping Fiasco might very well be killer for a large amount of people for these things. To understand this you need to understand all the large scale elements that make a game gain longevity - and the effects of possible large scale duping has on them.
PVP Progression
This one is easy. VR players with full legendary sets and ill-gotten gains from duping will dominate and have massive advantage over normal people for until the next expansion to come. This also connects to indirect beneficiarys from this incidents and, even to a lesser extent, to the PvE side of the fiaso - more on that later.
Unfair advantage like this is killer for a competitive system like this.
PVE Progression
People with gains from the duping might very well already have the best equipment in the game, and might very well have steamrolled through the veteran and dungeon content by now because they could bypass the balance element of this entirely - by the use of full legendary sets and enchantments when the game clearly wasn't balanced for people to have that. Future content, once released, will be a blitz for these people too - as it will not be and is not balanced on you having to have the very best gear to get there.
Crafting Skills
Wether it be buying items to deconstruct or duping the materials to craft stuff outright - people can entirely bypass crafting progression with the duping of items and gold.
Secondary Beneficators
These people will be extremly hard to track and some of them will even be unknowing of their status, and the effects they cause on the game is just as bad.
As solution I can really only see them doing a complete rollback to before the bug existed for everyone, that meaning, since this is apparently a bug since closed beta, a complete relaunch.
A complete rollback would make sense, but how many people would walk away from the game? I saw the youtube video the guy posted, showing off that he could dupe items and I hope he gets smacked with the ban hammer right across his basement dwelling, pie hole!
I just feel like you should consider, if we're talking about the same person, that that person posted here a week ago spreading word about this after having (supposedly!) reported it to ZO through more discrete channels and getting no response. If we're talking about the same person, the reason for the publicity was to force the issue to be addressed because it was at least somewhat widespread and ongoing.What do you gain by criticizing a CSR complaint?1 -
Endolith✭✭✭They won't do a complete rollback/relaunch. It's a nonstarter in terms of suggestions for how to deal with the problem.1 -
Cously✭✭✭✭✭
✭And here I was confident of a good launch. If you rollback servers (which I'm totally up to) please rollback the subscription days too!!3 -
Perhaps include also that multiple accounts lead to easy laundering and the ability to funnel items into limbo storage eg. Awaiting mail , hidden on guild store of unpopulated guild. resets are the only option.Edited by marcweiss81nrb19_ESO on April 18, 2014 2:19PM1
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DamiaSoul ShrivenI support rollback to a completely new game, enough, this game is ruined already. they can not find the items for every single player, impossible.
so unless you want to suffer in pvp without any solution, get killed by god players in full legendary then the only option is start from zero!
don't listen to the dupers whining because you are taking away their income from gold and item sales!!!
rollback or quit that's the option you have, if they don't rollback I quit, not going to waiste my time on a game that you cant win!.0 -
AstroCat✭✭✭What is the official statement on ZOE's remedy for this absolutely disastrous exploit?Edited by AstroCat on April 18, 2014 2:20PM0 -
Evergreen✭✭✭Magischzwei wrote: »I feel more people are going to be affected if they notice months later they have no way of competing with duping beneficiaries.
This is an excellent point and its critical Zenimax levels the playing field now for honest players if they cannot somehow wipe out all the duped items and gold gained.Edited by Evergreen on April 18, 2014 2:21PM1 -
o_0✭✭✭✭They won't post on it because that would be confirming it exists. They just reply with there scripted please report cheaters. Sure we all know it's happening, they do as well. But no developer wants to "confirm" it.
As long as I can remember every MMO has been plagued with duping problems. Seems no matter how much is learned over time. No developer has been able to prevent it.0 -
Magischzwei✭✭✭Updated the OP with the input all you guys gave - Bump for awareness.
Lets get this noticed.
Also the discrepancy between this one and other mmos is that the entirety of the games progression in every area of the game can be bypassed by duping - contrary to things like wow or guild wars where the best stuff doesnt come from crafting.Edited by Magischzwei on April 18, 2014 2:25PM0 -
Hadria✭✭✭✭I blame PTS players I'm sure they knew about this bs and didn't say ***! now look what we got going on.
People always tryin to screw everyone over.GrundelWolfe wrote: »I don't know if I would continue playing if they did a complete reset/rollback. I've put a lot of time into reaching VR2.
It's bad enough that the only content for veteran ranks right now is to do the other alliance quests. Having to restart would be miserable.
well that sucks for you, not even suppose to be in the VR yet.
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South_of_Heaven✭✭✭Crafting skill levels, leveling, equipment, trading, economy pvp, sieges, emperorships.
Everything has been compromised by duping.
They would never completely relaunch. But they OUGHT to do something drastic.3 -
wolfguard101✭✭✭Wow I had not realised how big an issue this had become.. always amazes me that so many people will cheat their way to the top.. Only answer to this is to ban all accounts who have utilised this cheat no matter whether it was one item or 100. This dies explain why my pvp experience has been dramatically different since live release.1
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Aci✭✭✭Id agree on whatever if it helps the game but believe me a rollback will end many subscribtions. Angry customers will flood this forum. I even wouldnt mind a complete relaunch of the game if that would fix things.0 -
AstroCat✭✭✭This problem is so wide spread and terrible I fear it is going to take a big move in order to make things right. Rollback if necessary with free time to compensate might be the only option, which is just nuts!1
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Scyrinal✭The fact that items could be duped at all was a MASSIVE oversight by the devs. A rollback of all gold and gear would make a LOT of people mad. However a rollback of all siege equipment and gold might be enough to remove most of the effects of the duping, as legendary gear will at least in theory become outdated. At least thats what I think.2
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GrundelWolfe✭✭portallib14_ESO wrote: »I blame PTS players I'm sure they knew about this bs and didn't say ***! now look what we got going on.
People always tryin to screw everyone over.GrundelWolfe wrote: »I don't know if I would continue playing if they did a complete reset/rollback. I've put a lot of time into reaching VR2.
It's bad enough that the only content for veteran ranks right now is to do the other alliance quests. Having to restart would be miserable.
well that sucks for you, not even suppose to be in the VR yet.
@portallib14_ESO Really? Please point me to the manual that tells me exactly how to play the game so that I may begin to play "properly."
:rolleyes:
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Mufasa✭✭✭portallib14_ESO wrote: »I blame PTS players I'm sure they knew about this bs and didn't say ***! now look what we got going on.
People always tryin to screw everyone over.GrundelWolfe wrote: »I don't know if I would continue playing if they did a complete reset/rollback. I've put a lot of time into reaching VR2.
It's bad enough that the only content for veteran ranks right now is to do the other alliance quests. Having to restart would be miserable.
well that sucks for you, not even suppose to be in the VR yet.
It has actually been confirmed that the PTS players did in fact report this months ago....
Also, from what I am reading you can not dupe anything that does not stack. So pvp items are fine.
Also, most Vets are running around in blue/epic anyways. And from what I can tell increasing from Epic to Leg only increases stats 4-6%. Considering how pvp scales atm, this is a non issue.
Secondly, they did not ban/roll back for the Alliance Point "Kill 20 Player" quest that was abused. Which means those who did in the first few days have such a huge lead on the boards, no one else can statistically catch up until the campaigns reset in 2 and a half months.... Which seems far more game breaking to me considering that is why most pvp.
Just trying to be realistic. But imagine the subscription losses from roll backs. Time invest, people would not tolerate that.
PS~ Wth are you talking about, "not supposed to be in the VR yet"??? I have put in 9.5 days of in game time and am rightfully VR6.... Get out of here with your poverty play time expectations for others. I took vacation for this game. I am using it.
Edited by Mufasa on April 18, 2014 2:31PM0 -
Zargorius✭✭✭✭Has the sky fallen yet? No? Good then, see you in game!Honor is a dead man's code.2 -
Fennec✭✭Idiot's, zenimax can look through the guild history logs, even you can look through the guild history logs of what has been withdrawed and depoisted in the guild bank.
The dupers will get banned soon enough, and the items/gold will be deleted for 50 to 60%. Maybe not everything, but atleast a huge amount of it.0 -
Magischzwei✭✭✭portallib14_ESO wrote: »I blame PTS players I'm sure they knew about this bs and didn't say ***! now look what we got going on.
People always tryin to screw everyone over.GrundelWolfe wrote: »I don't know if I would continue playing if they did a complete reset/rollback. I've put a lot of time into reaching VR2.
It's bad enough that the only content for veteran ranks right now is to do the other alliance quests. Having to restart would be miserable.
well that sucks for you, not even suppose to be in the VR yet.
It has actually been confirmed that the PTS players did in fact report this months ago....
Also, from what I am reading you can not dupe anything that does not stack. So pvp items are fine.
Also, most Vets are running around in blue/epic anyways. And from what I can tell increasing from Epic to Leg only increases stats 4-6%. Considering how pvp scales atm, this is a non issue.
Secondly, they did not ban/roll back for the Alliance Point "Kill 20 Player" quest that was abused. Which means those who did in the first few days have such a huge lead on the boards, no one else can statistically catch up until the campaigns reset in 2 and a half months.... Which seems far more game breaking to me considering that is why most pvp.
Just trying to be realistic. But imagine the subscription losses from roll backs. Time invest, people would not tolerate that.
PS~ Wth are you talking about, "not supposed to be in the VR yet"??? I have put in 9.5 days of in game time and am rightfully VR6.... Get out of here with your poverty play time expectations for others. I took vacation for this game. I am using it.
Some valid points made, but siege camps and siege weapons could in fact be duped, there also wasn't only one of these bugs around.
The campaign thingy seems to actually support my points.
Also, legendary enchantments have a larger impact then 6%
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AstroCat✭✭✭Well I'd say the sky has fallen in Tamriel, so, yeah maybe not see you in game?! All depends on how ZOE reacts to this terrible situation.0
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scruffycavetroll✭✭✭South_of_Heaven wrote: »Crafting skill levels, leveling, equipment, trading, economy pvp, sieges, emperorships.
Everything has been compromised by duping.
They would never completely relaunch. But they OUGHT to do something drastic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yis9q5C9TX0
"I HOPE THIS ISN'T GAMEBREAKING"
This might cause me to cancel. this entire game is screwed.
they need to fully reset everything...rerelease from scratch. this is bull$%@t
Edit: I'm sorry, this is beta bull#$%tEdited by scruffycavetroll on April 18, 2014 2:39PM1 -
Magischzwei✭✭✭Idiot's, zenimax can look through the guild history logs, even you can look through the guild history logs of what has been withdrawed and depoisted in the guild bank.
The dupers will get banned soon enough, and the items/gold will be deleted for 50 to 60%. Maybe not everything, but atleast a huge amount of it.
1/10 you haven't read the entire op.
On topic:
The secondary beneficiaries and the already spent stuff is most likely unable to be traced.
Suppose someone duped and traded their friend a stack of Rosin and 100k gold. The friend then went on to upgrade his gear and use the gold on advancing his profession, or buying siege weapons.
How do you track that?
Suppose someone did this via second account, how do you track that?
Suppose someone did this over 4 links, how do you track that?
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Mufasa✭✭✭Magischzwei wrote: »
Also, legendary enchantments have a larger impact then 6%
I upgraded a VR 6 weapon from epic to legendary. Went from 120dmg to 125dmg. That is in no way game breaking and only a 6% increase.
Also;
South_of_Heaven is a huge fear monger lol. Let me bold everything and tell everyone the sky is falling. Give me a break. Had you not read about it here you would not even be aware.
Edited by Mufasa on April 18, 2014 2:38PM0 -
Wolfster✭✭✭A rollback kills this game. You care, most care more about their investment for the last few weeks.1