Player Scam Policy

Jadeviper1974

starkerealm wrote: »

Stanley wrote: »

there is no right of appeal offered here and no specific citing of any clause within the TOS.

That's because it was a warning, no action was taken. They said, "hey, cut this out."

So, what could you appeal?

You want them to unwarn you? Take away your memory of being told to cut it out? Closest you can get to that is probably by downing a fifth of absinthe and waking up tomorrow wondering why your pants are now stapled to the ceiling.

I have had several nights like that once.

Jadeviper1974

Stanley wrote: »

Here we go .. it has started already.

CS deciding what agreements players have made and suspending players who they decide are lying to other players.. madness

"Greetings.

It has been reported to us, that you have been scamming certain players by offering them a vampire bite - getting the money off them and leaving without keeping your part of the deal.
Due to your chatlog I can verify that the actions you took are against our terms of service.

This is a written first warning.
Do not continue with this behavior, or further actions against you have to be taken - leading to suspension from the game or, if continued, permanent ban.

Kind Regards,"

there is no right of appeal offered here and no specific citing of any clause within the TOS.

Uhhh, they have the chat log of you doing it, that is the equivalent of a video of you paying an undercover cop for drugs. Except you got off with a warning.

Holycannoli

Jadeviper1974 wrote: »

As far as I am concerned their warning was the TOS, so banning them out of had is perfectly acceptable.

I'm not against that, I'm really not. You scam, you get banned, and then maybe I can come to the forum and drink delicious scammer tears. I get a nice sense of satisfaction when scammers and cheaters are banned and they plead their lying cases or or just complain.

TheSzerdi

Sedalias_Hope wrote: »

OMG! Wouldn't that be so freaking awesome. I love it! Yes by all means then let the freaking cheats, cheat, but if you get caught.... Paying the fine, Oh wait, you don't have enough gold? I am sorry now you cannot leave x area, FILLED with other low life criminals that got caught. Oh wait, like in real life you come into town with your band of thieves and the town AND PLAYERS in that town rally, kill you and spawncamp your corpse for a freaking month until you stop resubscribing Oh a lil gangland justice

The problem with this is that the bandits are almost always the hardcore pvp players and destroy the "honest craftsmen" and other "good guy" players. I love being the bandit. UO offered this initially, but the carebears cried and Trammel was born. UO wasn't fun after that, at least for me.

Lovely

TheSzerdi wrote: »

So if you role play a shady character that rips people off you should be punished for it?

But can I roleplay a character that kills you for being screwed over? And by kill, I mean your character is dead and can no longer be played. Or at least gather a few people, beat you up and take our money back.

As long as we can't have both sides of the roleplay and your character is actually immune to consequences, than this is not your 'character' roleplaying messing with people, it is YOU messing with people.

Epona222

I don't necessarily think people should be able to get away with doing it - but on the other hand if you fall for it, that's not particularly bright. I have a bridge for sale....

Kililin

It does not matter if you are bright.
In fact if someone was mentally *** (in the medical sense) it would be even worse to scam him.

This mentality really scares me, because i believe some of you are not trolling but really think that it is totally ok to take advantage of others, just because it is possible or their shortcomings make it possible. But maybe it is just nerd-revenge for being bullied in school, i dont know.

Edit: as english is not my first language, how do you say ret-ar-ded in a proper or political correct way? (Thats not censored)
edit2: Hm now i am puzzled, at first it was censored, like ***, after my first edit it was visible agein?

nudel

Kililin wrote: »

It does not matter if you are bright.
In fact if someone was mentally *** (in the medical sense) it would be even worse to scam him.

This mentality really scares me, because i believe some of you are not trolling but really think that it is totally ok to take advantage of others, just because it is possible or their shortcomings make it possible. But maybe it is just nerd-revenge for being bullied in school, i dont know.

Edit: as english is not my first language, how do you say ret-ar-ded in a proper or political correct way? (Thats not censored)
edit2: Hm now i am puzzled, at first it was censored, like ***, after my first edit it was visible agein?

I believe the politically correct term in use today is 'developmentally disabled'.

SteveCampsOut

Here's my solution! Turn Vampire and Werewolf Bites into "Instanced Solo Dungeons"! Nobody can camp your instance! Problem solved! Whiners go bite someone else now!

ElliottXO

You shouldn't be paying for bites, then people would stop camping the spawn points. It's really that simple.

If you get screwed over it's your problem. The game never intended that you become a vampire on level 5.

Seriously, this game has far bigger problems than this at the moment. If they really waste their time investigating these kind of reports rather than the 10.000 bot reports, then zenimax is really setting its priorities wrong.

starkerealm

Makkir wrote: »

Most other games have policies against intentionally taking advantage of other players. If they wrote out a "Written Agreement" in game in chat "I will bite you for 20k" and one party paid, then the other party is expected to follow through. I doubt, if it really did go down like that, it would be tolerable. In an MMO we are expected to have social interactions like these.

In the, not-that-it-matters category, because everything's in written form, due to the chat logs, it is technically a contract in some states. Hell, even a non-verbal agreement can create an estoppel in the real world.

Taking it to small claims court would be hilarious, and implausible for a number of reasons, but it is just this side of technically possible

BenjaminKacher_ESO

Coming from another game designed for adults instead of children (EvE online) I'm used to scamming which is not only allowed by the devs but encouraged.

It all depends what player base you want for the game, a bunch of 12 year olds like WoW or a bunch of mature adults like EvE.

Evelyn_Nightingale

Kililin wrote: »

It does not matter if you are bright.
In fact if someone was mentally *** (in the medical sense) it would be even worse to scam him.

This mentality really scares me, because i believe some of you are not trolling but really think that it is totally ok to take advantage of others, just because it is possible or their shortcomings make it possible. But maybe it is just nerd-revenge for being bullied in school, i dont know.

Edit: as english is not my first language, how do you say ret-ar-ded in a proper or political correct way? (Thats not censored)
edit2: Hm now i am puzzled, at first it was censored, like ***, after my first edit it was visible agein?

Mentally disabled or mentally handicapped is politically correct. @Kililin

Evelyn_Nightingale

Some people are overly trusting, but that doesn't excuse the con artist. In other MMOs was always confused when people I just met in game would hand valuables to me and ask me to hold onto them so they could transfer the goods to another character.

I once even told a guy, "Really? You know, I could easily run off with all your stuff," to which he replied, "I can tell you're a good person." He was overly trusting; I could have been pretending to be something I'm not, which is very easy over the internet. I did not steal his stuff because I value my honor and I'm not a jerk.

Saint_JiubB14_ESO

BenjaminKacher_ESO wrote: »

Coming from another game designed for adults instead of children (EvE online) I'm used to scamming which is not only allowed by the devs but encouraged.

It all depends what player base you want for the game, a bunch of 12 year olds like WoW or a bunch of mature adults like EvE.

Well that sounds like a terrible game. The only games I know that actually allow scamming are games where there are safeguards available to players so they don't get scammed (basically if it happens it is because you did something stupid and didn't use in-game mechanics). Since there is no way to regulate the exchange of Bites for money it is up to ZOS to determine if this is a problem. Given that there are basically no repercussions (again games with legal scamming I know of allow naming and shaming on forums where lists of known scammers are posted) I think it should be a bannable offense. But ZOS can also implement changes so that it could fall into the category of 'buyer beware', but right now the current design does not support that mentality.

Also for clarification, the TOS are broadly written, they are not a full list and ZOS reserves the right to make final judgements. Even so, intentionally blockading players from specific content would likely fall under the "interfere with normal game play' clause in the TOS.

I generally think this is problematic, but I don't see it as dire as others, my guild has several WWs and Vamps, as far as I know they had no problems getting that way. ZOS can probably do something about it, I just hope it is the right decision.

Kililin

@nudel @Evelyn_Nightingale‌ Thanks!

Saint_JiubB14_ESO wrote: »

BenjaminKacher_ESO wrote: »

Coming from another game designed for adults instead of children (EvE online) I'm used to scamming which is not only allowed by the devs but encouraged.

It all depends what player base you want for the game, a bunch of 12 year olds like WoW or a bunch of mature adults like EvE.

Well that sounds like a terrible game. The only games I know that actually allow scamming are games where there are safeguards available to players so they don't get scammed (basically if it happens it is because you did something stupid and didn't use in-game mechanics). Since there is no way to regulate the exchange of Bites for money it is up to ZOS to determine if this is a problem. Given that there are basically no repercussions (again games with legal scamming I know of allow naming and shaming on forums where lists of known scammers are posted) I think it should be a bannable offense. But ZOS can also implement changes so that it could fall into the category of 'buyer beware', but right now the current design does not support that mentality.

Also for clarification, the TOS are broadly written, they are not a full list and ZOS reserves the right to make final judgements. Even so, intentionally blockading players from specific content would likely fall under the "interfere with normal game play' clause in the TOS.

I generally think this is problematic, but I don't see it as dire as others, my guild has several WWs and Vamps, as far as I know they had no problems getting that way. ZOS can probably do something about it, I just hope it is the right decision.

@BenjaminKacher_ESO‌

Eve has a few terrible players,
http://jestertrek.blogspot.co.at/2014/03/the-bonus-round.html
http://www.minerbumping.com/2014/03/erotica-1-banned-from-eve-acquires.html
If you really think such things are either ok or mature, i dont know what to say without violating forum rules.
Frankly the ones in my example are sociopaths.

@Saint_JiubB14_ESO‌ Good point with the naming and shaming lists, actually this rule forces zenimax do act against scammers. Either that or they are actively protecting them, which is unlikely.

BenjaminKacher_ESO

Kililin wrote: »

@BenjaminKacher_ESO‌

Eve has a few terrible players,
http://jestertrek.blogspot.co.at/2014/03/the-bonus-round.html
http://www.minerbumping.com/2014/03/erotica-1-banned-from-eve-acquires.html
If you really think such things are either ok or mature, i dont know what to say without violating forum rules.
Frankly the ones in my example are sociopaths.

People like that exist in every game.
My point was that things like scamming and a rough learning curve makes the kids rage quit after a month and thus keeps the player base more mature.

I really don't care one way or another what they do about scammers in this game, I'm just saying if you want a more mature player base I wouldn't punish people for it. Let the players learn for themselves.

Jadeviper1974

starkerealm wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Most other games have policies against intentionally taking advantage of other players. If they wrote out a "Written Agreement" in game in chat "I will bite you for 20k" and one party paid, then the other party is expected to follow through. I doubt, if it really did go down like that, it would be tolerable. In an MMO we are expected to have social interactions like these.

In the, not-that-it-matters category, because everything's in written form, due to the chat logs, it is technically a contract in some states. Hell, even a non-verbal agreement can create an estoppel in the real world.

Taking it to small claims court would be hilarious, and implausible for a number of reasons, but it is just this side of technically possible

I can already hear the Judge; "You are suing for whaaa'", give the judge a deep south accent its even funnier.

Kililin

BenjaminKacher_ESO wrote: »

Kililin wrote: »

@BenjaminKacher_ESO‌

Eve has a few terrible players,
http://jestertrek.blogspot.co.at/2014/03/the-bonus-round.html
http://www.minerbumping.com/2014/03/erotica-1-banned-from-eve-acquires.html
If you really think such things are either ok or mature, i dont know what to say without violating forum rules.
Frankly the ones in my example are sociopaths.

People like that exist in every game.
My point was that things like scamming and a rough learning curve makes the kids rage quit after a month and thus keeps the player base more mature.

I really don't care one way or another what they do about scammers in this game, I'm just saying if you want a more mature player base I wouldn't punish people for it. Let the players learn for themselves.

I can not think of any worse incident than this bonus round ***, there is much discussion about it. And even CCP recognized that it was over the top.
Certainly it does not exist in any other game, in most games you are banned for less.

Also i dont think you are right in your assertion, i am quite old and would believe mature, never got scammed in eve and stopped playing because they support and accept behavior that is against the law in the real world.
Otoh there are lots of immature people who think it is very funny to mess with other people/players.

I do not believe in teaching a 12 year old, as you put it, that it is perfectly ok to commit fraud and/or theft. (btw this game is rated M)

p.s.: in my opinion there is no direct correlation between age and how mature one behaves.

Jadeviper1974

"p.s.: in my opinion there is no direct correlation between age and how mature one behaves."

Especially on the internet.

ebunts14_ESO

All I will say is that a cs rep. has already stated that if you been paid to bite someone and you don't, then it violates the Terms of Service. Thus it is a scam. It's not role-playing or any other excuse that you want to try and use.

tstar420

DanteYoda wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

TheSzerdi wrote: »

Is there one? Or is it whatever you can get away with like in EVE?

Say you offer vamp bite for 20k, collect the gold, then walk away. Will ESO punish people for scamming or is it legit?

Edit to add: I searched support and forums, but didn't see an answer.

Scamming violates our terms of service and we will address it accordingly.

Now that is awesome, thanks for responding.

US megaserver godlucifer is character name Scammer for sure I sent in a post but I doubt it will fix the issue...

Silestia

Kililin wrote: »

You can not roleplay a criminal without some kind of legal system.
For example if your legal status was lowered with every criminal action, to the point you became attackable by your own faction it would be ok for me. And you could roleplay a criminal/outlawed, but this game does not provide the mechanics, therefore it is forbidden by the TOS.

I like this idea

"I am just RPing honest" will become a valid excuse when and if a fully functioning IC justice system with enforceable punishments becomes available as the consequence like outlawry, which would basically be flagged for FFA open world PvP everywhere for a certain period of time without the ability to opt out, with heralds announcing the arrival of the punished one in the hub towns of the area with a quest that has rewards for hunting them down that would interest VR 10 players...

LimeCupcake

You can't brutally murder other players repeatedly in this game, so I feel like ripping some one off should be a punishable crime. Now if I can sneak into a players house that ripped me off kill him and take all his stuff it might be a different story.

Silestia

BenjaminKacher_ESO wrote: »

Coming from another game designed for adults instead of children (EvE online) I'm used to scamming which is not only allowed by the devs but encouraged.

It all depends what player base you want for the game, a bunch of 12 year olds like WoW or a bunch of mature adults like EvE.

EvE is probably a bad example there, a lot of 'mature' adults steer clear of that game because of its poisonous reputation that sometimes makes headlines for all the wrong reasons.

Mud_Puppy

How about don't buy bites. Thanks to this recent nerf and the reskill I got THE DAY BEFORE the nerf ive paid well over 30k just to deal with getting rid of vamp.