AEcaps, zergballs and you

Lowbei

The argument has gone on for months now, and explaining the full details of the issue to someone is a daunting task. I will attempt to outline the issue.

1. PvP at its base is competitive.

2. Winning due to overwhelming numbers is not competitive.

3. Area caps promote zergball style gameplay.

4. Zergball PvP leads to victory going to the side with overwhelming numbers.

5. Without AE caps, a smart group of 4 could beat most anything.

6. With AE caps, a group of terrible players could always win due to numbers.

7. With AE caps, the biggest zerg always wins, leading to morale loss for outnumbered factions.

8. GW2 also has faction RvR, but due to AE caps, its zergball style combat leads most people to quit that game.

9. During beta, we asked Brian Wheeler directly if there would be AE caps, his vague answer sounded like a no, and was backed up by most tooltips having no mention of caps.

10. GW2 players who came here hearing about the much improved PvP, have now all left after seeing the same zergball mechanics here.

11. There is very little skill or even thought involved in following a zerg spamming impulse.

12. ZOS ignored a 89% vote against AE caps with thousands of votes. Most polling centers use a sample of about a thousand people to judge the opinions of millions.

13. ZOS gave no reasoning behind having the caps despite multiple "ask us anything" questions that were clearly ignored.

14. Our uproar with a clear "we dont want caps" was met with a response of "but caps always existed", despite that not being a factor in the equasion. We dont care if the caps always existed, we dont want them.

15. Continuing to ignore the issue while more and more zerg guilds form up zergballs, is destroying our trust in you to provide a place for quality PvP.


Lets stay constructive and positive and sort this mess out. Thanks.

FENGRUSH

Agree, great points.

Hoping @zos_brianwheeler will show up to this thread.

Armitas

We all know that the more skilled group should beat the unskilled group...but how far should that go? Should 4 players be able to kill 100? Yes, Thermopylae comes to mind. However Sparta wasn't worried about Persia taking their ball and going home because they were fighting for their lives.

I think it's obvious that the skilled players are the minority and the unskilled players are the majority. If 4 players are wiping 100 players and they lose every day they are going to unsub.

Unskilled players can derive strength by numbers whereas skilled players can derive strength through talent. So I think the real question is what should the maximum potential for a skilled group be? Should 4 be able to kill 100...50....30...15? I don't know what that number is, however I know where it is. The number lies where both skilled and unskilled players achieve enough success that they remain subbed.

I believe the AOE cap is meant to balance skilled groups with unskilled groups. I don't know if it is the ideal number or the ideal means but I do agree with the thought process in balancing the success of all players.

Lowbei

I dont know what that number is, but its higher than 6, of that I am sure.

Honfold

Armitas wrote: »

We all know that the more skilled group should beat the unskilled group...but how far should that go? Should 4 players be able to kill 100? Yes, Thermopylae comes to mind. However Sparta wasn't worried about Persia taking their ball and going home because they were fighting for their lives.

I think it's obvious that the skilled players are the minority and the unskilled players are the majority. If 4 players are wiping 100 players and they lose every day they are going to unsub.

Unskilled players can derive strength by numbers whereas skilled players can derive strength through talent. So I think the real question is what should the maximum potential for a skilled group be? Should 4 be able to kill 100...50....30...15? I don't know what that number is, however I know where it is. The number lies where both skilled and unskilled players achieve enough success that they remain subbed.

I believe the AOE cap is meant to balance skilled groups with unskilled groups. I don't know if it is the ideal number or the ideal means but I do agree with the thought process in balancing the success of all players.

I agree.

I dont get why people would want to be part of a zerg group, it just seems very boring. However, the skilled players are still performing very well. A group of 8 skilled coordinated players can still hold back a zerg. I was just watching someone stream their small squad holding back and occasionally wiping a zerg. Armitas summed up the point I was going to make pretty well.

Lowbei

its still possible, but it often feels like you are fighting the ae cap more than the zergers themselves.

Honfold

Don't get me wrong, it is still a little disheartening to see my faction or the other two form zerg impulse groups. Especially when they all sit in the same couple square feet of space. If they do remove AOE cap I think they should nerf AOEs in order to create more of a balance. For example, if a 60 man zerg roles through, then there should need to be 15+ coordinated people throwing down AOEs to kill them. As it stand right now 4 very skilled players would be able to wipe those 60 people with zero AOE cap.

I would be in favor of them increasing the AOE cap, though not by much.

Lowbei

Why shouldnt 4 skilled players be able to kill those 60 if they refuse to move out of an AE?

In PvE, if you stand in the aoe stuff, you die, and you only have yourself to blame. During trials, if all 12 stand in a big aoe fire pit, should 6 of them survive, or should all die from their ignorance? Why should PvP be more forgiving? If you were zerging and died to a smallman, your only thought should be "i messed up" instead of "they are OP".

krim

Has everyone been a part of a so called impulse/AoE spam group? If not try it out sometime before saying its boring and doesnt take skill or doesnt help to accomplish cyrodiil objectives.

On a side note i think there are AE caps because if there wasnt ulti gen would be ridiculous, and then it would really be an AE ulti spam fest.

Agrippa_Invisus

krim wrote: »

Has everyone been a part of a so called impulse/AoE spam group? If not try it out sometime before saying its boring and doesnt take skill or doesnt help to accomplish cyrodiil objectives.

On a side note i think there are AE caps because if there wasnt ulti gen would be ridiculous, and then it would really be an AE ulti spam fest.

Yes, I have been. Member of it and leader of another.

It's boring and takes no skill. Ultimately, only tactical decisions require real input/thought and that's just from the head of the train typically. A very skilled individual in this position can really make the team excel, but ultimately there's not a lot that needs working on from an individual character point of view.

Also, too, ulti generation is a whole different ball of wax that needs looking at. But it's a close cousin to the AE Caps.

Paladin_echo1

Hands down, this is what I saw earlier. The zergball in this game is TERRIBLE. Just watched some guys on Dawnbreaker get wrecked bad by that thing. Its about 30 people in a TIGHT zergball that just destroys everything. They were just toying with the people inside until they felt like taking the keep for almost 30 minutes. It was comical, but I think that their should be a penalty for being in large tight groups like that. Like losing CC protection/ Decreased CC protection. Normally I just summon a lot of dragonknights to pull them apart with chains which proves to be hightly effective, but the better answer is for them to penalize zergballs and LOWER THE AMOUNT OF SERVERS SO WE HAVE EVEN TEAMS.

krim

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Has everyone been a part of a so called impulse/AoE spam group? If not try it out sometime before saying its boring and doesnt take skill or doesnt help to accomplish cyrodiil objectives.

On a side note i think there are AE caps because if there wasnt ulti gen would be ridiculous, and then it would really be an AE ulti spam fest.

Yes, I have been. Member of it and leader of another.

It's boring and takes no skill. Ultimately, only tactical decisions require real input/thought and that's just from the head of the train typically. A very skilled individual in this position can really make the team excel, but ultimately there's not a lot that needs working on from an individual character point of view.

Also, too, ulti generation is a whole different ball of wax that needs looking at. But it's a close cousin to the AE Caps.

Ok i guess you guys werent that effective probably wiped a bunch huh.

Krinaman

So based on your list the overwhelming complaint seems to be one side outnumbering the other.

While I agree that is a problem I don't agree the solution is to create a situation where a "group of 4 could beat most anything". The solution is to balance the populations.

Lowbei

the concepts involved in the argument obviously went way over some peoples heads.

those 15 facts arent debatable. id recommend you reread them until you understand.

pitdemon_ESO

People may argue about what it's going to take to fix things (nerf impulse, un-nerf AE, institute ranged AEs and ranged CC, collision detection for PC's so we can set up tank walls), but i believe most will agree that the current meta in Cyrodiil stinks.


The day I stop PvPing is the day I cancel my sub, but I've given up objective-based gameplay and grouping in general until this is fixed.

Agrippa_Invisus

krim wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Has everyone been a part of a so called impulse/AoE spam group? If not try it out sometime before saying its boring and doesnt take skill or doesnt help to accomplish cyrodiil objectives.

On a side note i think there are AE caps because if there wasnt ulti gen would be ridiculous, and then it would really be an AE ulti spam fest.

Yes, I have been. Member of it and leader of another.

It's boring and takes no skill. Ultimately, only tactical decisions require real input/thought and that's just from the head of the train typically. A very skilled individual in this position can really make the team excel, but ultimately there's not a lot that needs working on from an individual character point of view.

Also, too, ulti generation is a whole different ball of wax that needs looking at. But it's a close cousin to the AE Caps.

Ok i guess you guys werent that effective probably wiped a bunch huh.

Ahh, I see.

Without an argument, you fall back on attempting to insult my skills as a player.

Bravo, that obviously makes all your points in a clear and succinct manner. You have shown yourself a debater on par with the greats. They should rename Lincoln-Douglas debates after yourself.

In short, your fallacious argument has completely overwhelmed my reasonable statements with great aplomb.

Lowbei

agreed, and the only people who seem to think ae caps are good, also happen to be in the zergball.

coincidence?

FENGRUSH

krim wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Has everyone been a part of a so called impulse/AoE spam group? If not try it out sometime before saying its boring and doesnt take skill or doesnt help to accomplish cyrodiil objectives.

On a side note i think there are AE caps because if there wasnt ulti gen would be ridiculous, and then it would really be an AE ulti spam fest.

Yes, I have been. Member of it and leader of another.

It's boring and takes no skill. Ultimately, only tactical decisions require real input/thought and that's just from the head of the train typically. A very skilled individual in this position can really make the team excel, but ultimately there's not a lot that needs working on from an individual character point of view.

Also, too, ulti generation is a whole different ball of wax that needs looking at. But it's a close cousin to the AE Caps.

Ok i guess you guys werent that effective probably wiped a bunch huh.

try it out sometime before saying its boring and doesnt take skill or doesnt help to accomplish cyrodiil objectives

So when Agrippa points out hes actually done this and led it, you tell him he didnt do it effectively? How does that go against the point of

1) its boring
2) it doesnt take skill
3) help accomplish objectives

As someone whos fought against them, I can attest that it does indeed accomplish objective taking. As someone whos tried it once on a very small scale, I can confirm very little skill was used, and that it was boring and a waste of time if it were the future of pvp.

Clearly youre blindly arguing in favor of your top rated activity in cyrodill. Unfortunately, youre throwing out about 95% of the skill pool when using this strat in game and running a single bar without thinking.

It is true that you could technically script a majority of what happens in these groups without much effort at all. Its essentially like running an auto assist/skill use in a tab target game. Sick skills.

frwinters_ESO

I honestly think if we never knew about the AoE cap or not and made it a big deal, the zergball may not have happened. Everyone played fine until they found out about the AoE cap. The cap was in place since say one, and no one knew really until it was released. then EXPLOSION OF RAGE ensues.

If the AoE cap is removed, the zergball still wins no matter what. It no longer matters. Think logically. You have 20 people in zergball, each can affect up to 6 people, that means each person can damage up to 120 players max, maybe split that in half for the people healing the zergball, so those doing damage can affect up to 60 people approximately. So lets remove the cap and keep the zergball. Now they can affect "x" where x = any number of people stuck in the radius which can be anyware from 1 to how ever many mobs we can have standing in one spot, so maybe infinite. You can stack 100 people in one spot and the zergball can run over that spot and all 100 players will now take damage and die. you can stack 200 people in the same spot, all 200 people will be affected.

Guess what this will turn into? Zergball Vs Zergball. That's what would happen if AoE cap is removed. Zergball vs Zergball may even be happening now, but at least they are only doing a fraction of the damage they could possibly due thanks to AoE caps.

The only way to stop the zergball....is to.... *insert bad word of choice here*

krim

Lowbei wrote: »

the concepts involved in the argument obviously went way over some peoples heads.

those 15 facts arent debatable. id recommend you reread them until you understand.

Facts? its a QQ post other then number 1, something that a lot of you people arent because its all complaining and excuse making that your not having fun in PvP. Thats how i see it.

Lowbei

we are not arguing if the ae cap is a good or bad thing, as it has already been proven that it has destroyed gw2 pvp and is quickly doing the same here.

if you are still arguing this, then you are so far behind the debate that its pointless trying to catch you up. you need to reread the 15 points, over and over, until you have caught up.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

pitdemon_ESO wrote: »

The day I stop PvPing is the day I cancel my sub, but I've given up objective-based gameplay and grouping in general until this is fixed.

When I want PvP now, going back to War of the Roses.
I will keep my sub in TESO for the time been, playing with friends and help them with quests etc. But until they fix the Vampires and some of their synergies
(eg Bat Swarm -> Standard of might from the same DK Vamp in less than 10 seconds) I will stay away.

As TESO is right now, you cannot fight with weapons at all. Is pointless and useless to go for non magicka build. And no matter how good I am with my magicka build Templar (and indeed I am), is boring and not fun.

Should be called "The Elder Spellcasters Online".

ThyIronFist

krim wrote: »

Has everyone been a part of a so called impulse/AoE spam group? If not try it out sometime before saying its boring and doesnt take skill or doesnt help to accomplish cyrodiil objectives.

On a side note i think there are AE caps because if there wasnt ulti gen would be ridiculous, and then it would really be an AE ulti spam fest.

I have been a part of such a group for a short while. It was the most boring and unskilled PvP I have ever experiened. We used TS3 as we always do when PvPing, but after a while most of us were like "f*ck this sh*t".

We now run a normal guild group where people are free to do what they want, some of us are DKs that charge into battle, some of us are Templar healers, others are single-target NBs and Sorcs. That is fun and this is how PvP is supposed to be. And not these annoying zergballs that just farm people for AP and think they are skilled and competitive players. LMAO.

Zergballs will sooner or later kill PvP, even I am slowly playing less and less because I get sick and tired of seeing zergballs just choo-choo'ing through everything.

pitdemon_ESO

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

pitdemon_ESO wrote: »

The day I stop PvPing is the day I cancel my sub, but I've given up objective-based gameplay and grouping in general until this is fixed.

When I want PvP now, going back to War of the Roses.
I will keep my sub in TESO for the time been, playing with friends and help them with quests etc. But until they fix the Vampires and some of their synergies
(eg Bat Swarm -> Standard of might from the same DK Vamp in less than 10 seconds) I will stay away.

As TESO is right now, you cannot fight with weapons at all. Is pointless and useless to go for non magicka build. And no matter how good I am with my magicka build Templar (and indeed I am), is boring and not fun.

Should be called "The Elder Spellcasters Online".

I still very much enjoy my 1v1s and 1v2s, and me and another stealther taking on the entire herd will never get old in my book, but you're right about a few abilities needing to be looked at.

As for weapons, I play a mixed character personally (1800/3000/1800) and love it. I'm probably useless in PvE but I do ok for a poor, underpowered, underleveled Nightblade

SBR_QuorTek

For starters... and which is important to point out... we have no rights and says in what way the game go.. we do not even own our accounts.

Keep in mind that often they do react towards what they actually see themself inside the game... and partially.. even if a thread has 10k views.. does not mean that 10K peopel actually viewed it and also keep in mind... that even if let us say a 1000 people voted, the obvious yes/no sayers... then it is still only a fragment of the game population.

But the result woudl be the same with or without caps game wise... the reason why they added caps is that a group of 5 wont be able to whipe a group of 24 though... alot of people was in uproar about that as well.

Yes I know it would be nice if I could go there and talon 50 players with my DK followed by a couple of standarts... could be fun along side with a couple of others... but I also would or could see for myself that, that is waaay to powerfull and we would be back to the beginning again with complaining about a few people wasting an entire group of pro's.

Logic bound to this.. move back to something and other old problems will turn up...

Lowbei

again, public polling usually uses a sample of 1-2k to judge the opinions of millions, so your point is invalid.

also, you obviously arent caught up to the rest of us if you are still arguing this. reread the 15 points until you catch up, thanks.

krim

ThyIronFist wrote: »

krim wrote: »

Has everyone been a part of a so called impulse/AoE spam group? If not try it out sometime before saying its boring and doesnt take skill or doesnt help to accomplish cyrodiil objectives.

On a side note i think there are AE caps because if there wasnt ulti gen would be ridiculous, and then it would really be an AE ulti spam fest.

I have been a part of such a group for a short while. It was the most boring and unskilled PvP I have ever experiened. We used TS3 as we always do when PvPing, but after a while most of us were like "f*ck this sh*t".

We now run a normal guild group where people are free to do what they want, some of us are DKs that charge into battle, some of us are Templar healers, others are single-target NBs and Sorcs. That is fun and this is how PvP is supposed to be. And not these annoying zergballs that just farm people for AP and think they are skilled and competitive players. LMAO.

Zergballs will sooner or later kill PvP, even I am slowly playing less and less because I get sick and tired of seeing zergballs just choo-choo'ing through everything.

Im curious what was so boring about it? How is it different from what you guys are doing now?

krim

Lowbei wrote: »

we are not arguing if the ae cap is a good or bad thing, as it has already been proven that it has destroyed gw2 pvp and is quickly doing the same here.

if you are still arguing this, then you are so far behind the debate that its pointless trying to catch you up. you need to reread the 15 points, over and over, until you have caught up.

Forget GW2 this isnt GW.

Do you really think removing the AE cap is going to stop this so called zerg balling? Do you think your group of 4 is going to take on a group of 6 much less a group of 24 doing the same exact thing you are with the same skill lvl? No its not happening.

Cyrodiil is a open world pvp with big number of players fighting at any given time.. This isnt a 10v10 BG, if you run into a much larger group then yours of course your going to get *** . Obviously thats not competition but until you can match the competition i dont think cyrodiil is supposed to be that, its war.

Lowbei

again, you are so far behind the discussion that it would be a waste of time to attempt to catch you up.

reread the 15 points until you get it.

FENGRUSH

krim wrote: »

Lowbei wrote: »

we are not arguing if the ae cap is a good or bad thing, as it has already been proven that it has destroyed gw2 pvp and is quickly doing the same here.

if you are still arguing this, then you are so far behind the debate that its pointless trying to catch you up. you need to reread the 15 points, over and over, until you have caught up.

Forget GW2 this isnt GW.

Do you really think removing the AE cap is going to stop this so called zerg balling? Do you think your group of 4 is going to take on a group of 6 much less a group of 24 doing the same exact thing you are with the same skill lvl? No its not happening.

Cyrodiil is a open world pvp with big number of players fighting at any given time.. This isnt a 10v10 BG, if you run into a much larger group then yours of course your going to get *** . Obviously thats not competition but until you can match the competition i dont think cyrodiil is supposed to be that, its war.

Columba

There is zero "proof" as to what killed Gw2 or if indeed it was ever killed. It's unknowable and subjective.

There is also zero proof that AOE cap removal will improve the game. It's a feature you want, but don't confuse it as a fact.

I think steps should be taken to discourage zerging and make smaller skirmishes more feasible, but I can get smaller skirmishes today without anything as drastic as an aoe cap removal. I remember 30 people standing motionless in daoc due to one aoe stun, and each getting decimated one by one. No thanks. Playing the game of who can fire the aoe first is no less mindless than spamming impulse.