Class Balancing - Please stop the nerfs

Goibot

Our little community is hurting, quite a few people have already left and a lot of others are just riding out their current sub. The reasons are too numerous to list and range from bad customer service to lag in Cyodil and the VR content being very powerful with thousands of problems in between. I want ESO to grow a happy player base where people work together to get things done but that is not what ESO is promoting.

We are now getting to the point where the developers are trying to balance the classes. I think we can all see what two classes are strong and what two are on the short end of the dps list. Every leaderboard and list states it clearly.

The dev's have so far tried to do a balancing act (and very badly) by nerfing whatever they thought was too powerful. First before anything in a skill line is nerfed the line itself should be fixed. The Vamp line for example, it has had a pretty serious nerf to its stages and mist form but the line itself is still broken (just one example).

Next when they slammed the hammer down, they hit one of the weakest skill lines out there. Melee Templars comes to mind with biting jabs. Yes they are going to revert the global cool down back to where it was but they are still going to nerf the cost of it. Why? It defies all logic. I ask again why nerf one of the weakest classes at all?

Now when they get around to nerfing the strongest two classes what is going to happen? I can tell you what happened with the Templar nerf, there was a lot of rage quit and unsub. That nerf still defies all logic. I suspect Sorc and DK's will experience the same thing. When you change a skill where it doesn't allow a player to do what he could do the day before all you do is make people mad.

I have a suggestion for you in your balancing act:
1. Stop the nerfs! Just stop them, let the player base feel confident that they wont have to respec or reroll every patch. Stop the cycle of rage/quit/unsub
2. Fix the skill lines before you start adjusting them. Yes all of them.
3. Use buffing to adjust the classes instead of nerfing them. The VR content is pretty tough to solo and could withstand this with no problem.

I know this is a strange concept for developers but think of the difference it would make in our little community. I believe we would have a happier community of players and you might be able to stay P2P longer.

If you continue this path you will loose a lot more players.
My two cents.

someuser

@‌Goibot I agree.

I would even go a step further, continuing that logic, and say there should be no more content updates until they get any existing broken content fixed. No reason to compound any issues with additional layers of code.

But there isn't a chance in hell that is going to happen (sadly).

Gern_Verkheart

I couldn't agree more. I don't know why devs in every MMO seem to be obsessed with nerfing, as opposed to buffing the classes that are lagging behind.

someuser

@Gern_Verkheart I agree.

Why not BUFF the nightblades and templars to the level of DK and sorcs and than adjust the mob difficulty to make sure its not a complete faceroll???

Just from a marketing standpoint, why do you want to lose subs prematurely? As the OP said, who wants to log on to their toon only to be weaker than they were just the day before? Especially if your class is already behind the curve.

WHY add a GCD on bitting jabs??? I seriously don't care if they just put a timer on the move just to stop people from spamming it, but WHAT point does it serve to nerf a class just to address bots?? Not fair to the paying customer base.

/rant over

Nox_Aeterna

Hehe , well i still got 8 days left :P.

Zen clearly got nearly no idea what the hell is going on in their game , reason they went after bitting jabs on templars , while DKs and Sorcs keep their place at the top.

pknecron

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Hehe , well i still got 8 days left :P.

Zen clearly got nearly no idea what the hell is going on in their game , reason they went after bitting jabs on templars , while DKs and Sorcs keep their place at the top.

If you read the latest patch notes for the next patch you would see they are fixing the lag issue with biting jabs because it was a bug and not intentional.

Goibot

pknecron wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Hehe , well i still got 8 days left :P.

Zen clearly got nearly no idea what the hell is going on in their game , reason they went after bitting jabs on templars , while DKs and Sorcs keep their place at the top.

If you read the latest patch notes for the next patch you would see they are fixing the lag issue with biting jabs because it was a bug and not intentional.

I'm sorry, but I do disagree with you. They did the nerf intentionally. They said the mistake that they made was doing it by stealth and not putting it in the patch notes, That was not intended. Also the new cost in manna is going to be an intentional nerf as well. It really defies logic, doesn't it.

Gigamatic

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Zen clearly got nearly no idea what the hell is going on in their game , reason they went after bitting jabs on templars , while DKs and Sorcs keep their place at the top.

That was their "fix" for gold farmers. There are soooooo many issues that are mounting for this game, ZOS doesn't know where to begin. Their first thought was to give more content to try to keep players content while they do their best to tackle the overwhelming issues like broken NB skills, the complete imbalance of Magicka/Stam skills, and to go back to the blatant botting that is so easily accomplished with some simple scripts. Game is a complete mess, and they have no immediate answers to the issues at hand. Yes they'll fix the bugs, the skills, class imbalance, content balance(ie: Vr leveling), and maybe get to the Magicka/Stam balance. By looking at the list I just created, you're looking at 6 months plus before you start seeing some actual true balance. True balance doesn't mean perfection, that doesn't ever occur in MMOs. I mean where all classes are relatively close to balance, and you don't hit brick walls, and broken/bugged quests throughout your experience. To sum it up, game will be long dead before that goal is reached.

Nox_Aeterna

pknecron wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Hehe , well i still got 8 days left :P.

Zen clearly got nearly no idea what the hell is going on in their game , reason they went after bitting jabs on templars , while DKs and Sorcs keep their place at the top.

If you read the latest patch notes for the next patch you would see they are fixing the lag issue with biting jabs because it was a bug and not intentional.

Quite sure they never said it was a bug , just a not listed balance change they made , which got a major backlash from the templars ofc and thus they changed their mind about.

So yes , i knew they were going to revert it back eventually , it was said so in the other thread , still , i will believe it when i see it working.

Also , i want to see about that magicka cost change they had in mind for it. If we can barely use it just the same , then i still have no reason to resub.

Like the OP himself said , when you are already behind , getting hit even more , by unbiased devs :P , annoys you even more than it normally would.

Ragekniv

Zenimax's motives bear scrutiny.

Why would you leave two classes woefully at a disadvantage after Beta and three months of release without effectively addressing the need for balance?

Why would you nerf a Templar class skill abused by bots rather than deal with the bots?

Templars already had the worst DPS of all classes. No other class had its resource mechanic completely removed from Beta.

Why have NB's had to wait for three months to begin having their broken class addressed?

Why are OP Sorcs and DKs continually not addressed? Face rolling VR content and as stated disproportionately represented in Craglorn trials.

Beta and three months worth of legitimate subscription player base loyalty should bear more fruit from Zenimax.

How long will a two class format remain defensible as balanced. A significant percentage of player base remain hopeful but understandably upset.

I still log onto my VR6 Templar from time to time but recent action on biting jabs and remaining class imbalance infuriates me.

I want to play a Templar, in any style of play, the way I want to play the way Zenimax sold all classes to the optimistic masses of ESO subscribers.

iuki

Hum, far as I can tell 99.99% of complaints about sorcs is bolt escape.

I guess they will nerf that into the ground so it's useless and then we can all just play DKs instead since they are a better 'sorc' than a real one. Bolt escape is the sorc's class defining skill so once it's gutted there will be not much left. GG.

Misery loves company and QQ rules balancing after all!

Nox_Aeterna

Gigamatic wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Zen clearly got nearly no idea what the hell is going on in their game , reason they went after bitting jabs on templars , while DKs and Sorcs keep their place at the top.

That was their "fix" for gold farmers. There are soooooo many issues that are mounting for this game, ZOS doesn't know where to begin. Their first thought was to give more content to try to keep players content while they do their best to tackle the overwhelming issues like broken NB skills, the complete imbalance of Magicka/Stam skills, and to go back to the blatant botting that is so easily accomplished with some simple scripts. Game is a complete mess, and they have no immediate answers to the issues at hand. Yes they'll fix the bugs, the skills, class imbalance, content balance(ie: Vr leveling), and maybe get to the Magicka/Stam balance. By looking at the list I just created, you're looking at 6 months plus before you start seeing some actual true balance. True balance doesn't mean perfection, that doesn't ever occur in MMOs. I mean where all classes are relatively close to balance, and you don't hit brick walls, and broken/bugged quests throughout your experience. To sum it up, game will be long dead before that goal is reached.

While yes , i do see that the bots are the most obvious reason , i still try to stay in denial about this.

I really just dont want to accept zen would nerf a class because of bots.

Because when i trully do so , it will be when i will lose all faith their team will ever do a decent work in this game.

Gigamatic

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

While yes , i do see that the bots are the most obvious reason , i still try to stay in denial about this.

I really just dont want to accept zen would nerf a class because of bots.

Because when i trully do so , it will be when i will lose all faith their team will ever do a decent work in this game.

That's exactly why they did it. Most gold farmers are multi-boxing four toons. However, they're barely gearing more than the main one they run. They wanted that CD to disrupt the group, and hope for deaths on some of the toons within the group. Look at most if not all the farmers next time you're on, and you'll notice a pattern. One, they're all templars, and two, they all use biting jabs. Having 4 players using biting jabs on 2-3 targets at once is easy sauce. That makes the gold farming extremely efficient.

anakaki

My issues with templar is lack of aoe, low dps, long cast times and only marginal better healers than sorc. So why bring a temp? Anywhere.

How this went through launch is beyond me. I know people joke about it but I seriously think they didn't test templars on end content nor compared the lack of dps/skill mechanics vs the other two playable classes, at all.

iuki

anakaki wrote: »

My issues with templar is lack of aoe, low dps, long cast times and only marginal better healers than sorc. So why bring a temp? Anywhere.

How this went through launch is beyond me. I know people joke about it but I seriously think they didn't test templars on end content nor compared the lack of dps/skill mechanics vs the other two playable classes, at all.

If you want AoE, use a destruction staff just like sorcs. Sorcs only really have one AoE and that's lighting pool or whatever but that spell sucks so bad that there is no real reason to put it on the bar unless you DON'T have impulse.

Btw, Sorcs can't cleanse....so temps are the superior healer hands down imo.

anakaki

iuki wrote: »

anakaki wrote: »

My issues with templar is lack of aoe, low dps, long cast times and only marginal better healers than sorc. So why bring a temp? Anywhere.

How this went through launch is beyond me. I know people joke about it but I seriously think they didn't test templars on end content nor compared the lack of dps/skill mechanics vs the other two playable classes, at all.

If you want AoE, use a destruction staff just like sorcs. Sorcs only really have one AoE and that's lighting pool or whatever but that spell sucks so bad that there is no real reason to put it on the bar unless you DON'T have impulse.

Btw, Sorcs can't cleanse....so temps are the superior healer hands down imo.

You dont get it. Sorcs heal without casualties in trials but deal triple amount of dps. Why would you bring a temp?

Get it now?

If your being outdpsd by a templar your doing it wrong.

anakaki

iuki wrote: »

anakaki wrote: »

My issues with templar is lack of aoe, low dps, long cast times and only marginal better healers than sorc. So why bring a temp? Anywhere.

How this went through launch is beyond me. I know people joke about it but I seriously think they didn't test templars on end content nor compared the lack of dps/skill mechanics vs the other two playable classes, at all.

If you want AoE, use a destruction staff just like sorcs. Sorcs only really have one AoE and that's lighting pool or whatever but that spell sucks so bad that there is no real reason to put it on the bar unless you DON'T have impulse.

Btw, Sorcs can't cleanse....so temps are the superior healer hands down imo.

And I'm not saying sorc should get nerfed, not dk either. I want a major buff/fix to templar and NB. Now, not later when it's too late.

iuki

So nerf the crap out of sorcs b/c Templars need a buff...got it.

Gigamatic

I was going to make a long post today regarding balance, and I decided it wasn't worth the time. Since this is a post regarding balance, I will make a quick summary of why the game is broken. I can sum it up in two reasons. First reason: they made all the class skills magicka based. Second reason: they made all damage of skills based off the amount of said power used for that skill. Simply put, they immediately imbalanced the game from the get go. We can all go deep into the underlying issues, look at numbers per cost, gear for regen and all that, but it's not necessary. The root of the problem are the two reasons I listed. When people made a character, they never said "I'm going to be a bowman with DK skills." Or "I'm going to be a sword&board Sorc, that would be cool." They all chose their character based on the class skills they most connected with. It's that simple! By putting all class skills as a magicka spender, every single player is going to do their best to obtain the most magicka and magicka regen to utilize their class skills. Which simlpy puts the game at an imbalance.

anakaki

iuki wrote: »

So nerf the crap out of sorcs b/c Templars need a buff...got it.

Did you even read my post above yours?

Goibot

Gigamatic wrote: »

I was going to make a long post today regarding balance, and I decided it wasn't worth the time. Since this is a post regarding balance, I will make a quick summary of why the game is broken. I can sum it up in two reasons. First reason: they made all the class skills magicka based. Second reason: they made all damage of skills based off the amount of said power used for that skill. Simply put, they immediately imbalanced the game from the get go. We can all go deep into the underlying issues, look at numbers per cost, gear for regen and all that, but it's not necessary. The root of the problem are the two reasons I listed. When people made a character, they never said "I'm going to be a bowman with DK skills." Or "I'm going to be a sword&board Sorc, that would be cool." They all chose their character based on the class skills they most connected with. It's that simple! By putting all class skills as a magicka spender, every single player is going to do their best to obtain the most magicka and magicka regen to utilize their class skills. Which simlpy puts the game at an imbalance.

I agree, every Stam weapon in the game cannot compare to the magic lines. I went through 3 builds before I figured that out. I am now on my fourth and it includes a Resto and Dest staf. It is hard to bring up two new skill lines at V5.

subecsanur

Goibot wrote: »

Our little community is hurting, quite a few people have already left and a lot of others are just riding out their current sub. The reasons are too numerous to list and range from bad customer service to lag in Cyodil and the VR content being very powerful with thousands of problems in between. I want ESO to grow a happy player base where people work together to get things done but that is not what ESO is promoting.

We are now getting to the point where the developers are trying to balance the classes. I think we can all see what two classes are strong and what two are on the short end of the dps list. Every leaderboard and list states it clearly.

The dev's have so far tried to do a balancing act (and very badly) by nerfing whatever they thought was too powerful. First before anything in a skill line is nerfed the line itself should be fixed. The Vamp line for example, it has had a pretty serious nerf to its stages and mist form but the line itself is still broken (just one example).

Next when they slammed the hammer down, they hit one of the weakest skill lines out there. Melee Templars comes to mind with biting jabs. Yes they are going to revert the global cool down back to where it was but they are still going to nerf the cost of it. Why? It defies all logic. I ask again why nerf one of the weakest classes at all?

Now when they get around to nerfing the strongest two classes what is going to happen? I can tell you what happened with the Templar nerf, there was a lot of rage quit and unsub. That nerf still defies all logic. I suspect Sorc and DK's will experience the same thing. When you change a skill where it doesn't allow a player to do what he could do the day before all you do is make people mad.

I have a suggestion for you in your balancing act:
1. Stop the nerfs! Just stop them, let the player base feel confident that they wont have to respec or reroll every patch. Stop the cycle of rage/quit/unsub
2. Fix the skill lines before you start adjusting them. Yes all of them.
3. Use buffing to adjust the classes instead of nerfing them. The VR content is pretty tough to solo and could withstand this with no problem.

I know this is a strange concept for developers but think of the difference it would make in our little community. I believe we would have a happier community of players and you might be able to stay P2P longer.

If you continue this path you will loose a lot more players.
My two cents.

I think it is only fair at what was stated above, especially if they are reluctant to decrease or remove the cost of a respec or attribute redistribution. At least give some satisfaction and comfort to those who have already invested time to level regardless of the broken classes.

Goibot

iuki wrote: »

So nerf the crap out of sorcs b/c Templars need a buff...got it.

Sorry I disagree. No nerf needed just buff the lower classes. The nerf hammer will just give us a ghost town to play in.

someuser

RE: Templar Bitting Jab "hotfix"

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

On Monday (6/2) during the regular maintenance period, we’ll be pushing an incremental patch to the live megaservers. The patch includes a handful of important fixes and improvements. We’re still working on finalizing the complete patch notes, but we wanted to share some of the highlights with you now:

Templar

• Puncturing Strikes: Reduced the global cooldown triggered after this ability is used, and slightly increased the ability resource cost. This change impacts Puncturing Strikes and all its morphs.

Please note that @ZOS_JessicaFolsom said they will reduce the GLOBAL COOL DOWN of puncturing strikes (which morphs into bitting jabs) and INCREASE the magika cost.

So, they're not reverting anything completely rather tweaking the nerf. I am 100% ok with a CD on puncturing strikes, just not a GCD. It really throws me off when I can't do a single move after using bitting jabs in the heat of combat while my squishy cloth Templar is in melee range.

But as I said in the above quoted thread, I'll give it a fair shake and not completely trash the "fix" until I tried it... But I still think the GCD is ridiculous

anakaki

someuser wrote: »

RE: Templar Bitting Jab "hotfix"

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

On Monday (6/2) during the regular maintenance period, we’ll be pushing an incremental patch to the live megaservers. The patch includes a handful of important fixes and improvements. We’re still working on finalizing the complete patch notes, but we wanted to share some of the highlights with you now:

Templar

• Puncturing Strikes: Reduced the global cooldown triggered after this ability is used, and slightly increased the ability resource cost. This change impacts Puncturing Strikes and all its morphs.

Please note that @ZOS_JessicaFolsom said they will reduce the GLOBAL COOL DOWN of puncturing strikes (which morphs into bitting jabs) and INCREASE the magika cost.

So, they're not reverting anything completely rather tweaking the nerf. I am 100% ok with a CD on puncturing strikes, just not a GCD. It really throws me off when I can't do a single move after using bitting jabs in the heat of combat while my squishy cloth Templar is in melee range.

But as I said in the above quoted thread, I'll give it a fair shake and not completely trash the "fix" until I tried it... But I still think the GCD is ridiculous

There are so many other issues with templar. I can't believe all the rage as if this would sort out anything.

Ragekniv

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Gigamatic wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Zen clearly got nearly no idea what the hell is going on in their game , reason they went after bitting jabs on templars , while DKs and Sorcs keep their place at the top.

That was their "fix" for gold farmers. There are soooooo many issues that are mounting for this game, ZOS doesn't know where to begin. Their first thought was to give more content to try to keep players content while they do their best to tackle the overwhelming issues like broken NB skills, the complete imbalance of Magicka/Stam skills, and to go back to the blatant botting that is so easily accomplished with some simple scripts. Game is a complete mess, and they have no immediate answers to the issues at hand. Yes they'll fix the bugs, the skills, class imbalance, content balance(ie: Vr leveling), and maybe get to the Magicka/Stam balance. By looking at the list I just created, you're looking at 6 months plus before you start seeing some actual true balance. True balance doesn't mean perfection, that doesn't ever occur in MMOs. I mean where all classes are relatively close to balance, and you don't hit brick walls, and broken/bugged quests throughout your experience. To sum it up, game will be long dead before that goal is reached.

While yes , i do see that the bots are the most obvious reason , i still try to stay in denial about this.

I really just dont want to accept zen would nerf a class because of bots.

Because when i trully do so , it will be when i will lose all faith their team will ever do a decent work in this game.

I appreciate your heart my brethren Templar but ask yourself why would they ninja nerf biting jabs if not for abuse by bots.

Bots use biting jabs, likely for the high crit potential in combination.

Templars already had the worst DPS of all classes. Templars are the only class that had their resource mechanic completely removed out of Beta.

I'm sorry to say but I hope you like feeding your horse and kicking stones on the edge of the ESO sandbox.

Any effective balance of all classes will likely exceed the attrition rate of ESO's player base.

Look at your friends list and guilds, just how active are they anymore?

pecheckler

reason people are leaving is simple... nightblades and templars are not even close to sorc and dk

Khazaad

If I had two cents for every time someone gave their two cents...

... it would be weird and I'd just wonder why where the hell all those pennies were coming from.

Loco_Mofo

pecheckler wrote: »

reason people are leaving is simple... nightblades and templars are not even close to sorc and dk

This.

People can deny this all they want, but I bet they haven't tried to find a group in Craglorn or even vet dungeons using either class. It's not fun.

Shaun98ca2

Goibot wrote: »

Stop the Nefts.

This is the dumbest thing I have EVER heard. So you have a class that say single handedly destroys everything in the game with the push of 1 button as a kill switch to all mobs and you say leave it.

On the contrary to what people think the devs don't just neft things cause people are crying they nerf them because they aren't balance they way the devs invisioned them to be with the content.

Most gamers cry for nerf cause they can TELL an ability isn't in line with the content, while the ones using it think its ok to destroy all the content with great ease.

You nerft things to create a balance between the players and the content. If the player doesn't like the nerf then they aren't here to "play" the game.

Deinokb16_ESO

Even they said it would be xxx.xxx.xxx ways to build your character, when you add content like the trials, all that X builds come to 1 or 2 viable per class, it's in that moment when you see the weaknesses and the opnesses of classes. From my point of view, Templars have been relegated to their heal branch and I think they will remain like that during the whole game.