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Proc sets? good or bad
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Proc sets are fine as long as the numbers behind them are balanced.
"Letting your gear kill for you" literally describes every build in the game unless you run around naked
Nop, not even close. A set giving u weapon dmg or ult still requires you to actually play the game, perform ur combos etc. It gives you stats but it still requires you to utilize those stats correctly to be efficient, it still requires to L2P.
Procs however are a different story. No need to L2P. A bad player puts them on and his performance is astronomically improving. Just light attack and let the gear apply pressure and burst people for you. So yeah, letting ur gear kill for you is a prety good description for proc sets.
Don't you proc a set by... let's say... playing the game?
I mean if you want to proc a set like... let's say, affliction, don't you have to use... uhmm, dmg skills?
What about a set like... Livewire. Don't you have to receive... dmg in such a way the proc actually works? And to do so, don't you have to use, hmmm, a defensive playing style that endures damage done, such as healing or blocking?
I mean, I don't know any proc set that does something just by slotting it, except maybe Necropotence.
Did you miss the part where i talked about proc sets doing dmg specifically and not those giving you stat bonuses. I mean, that was exactly my point, go back and read again.
But proc sets also requires you to do dmg and perform combos, is a trade off in which you lose stat potential (resource recovery, extra sustained dmg, extra healing, extra mitigation) for some extra dmg that works under specific conditions. Saying it carries your build is a bit too much. I agree that old proc sets were bad for the game in general, but in its current state they are not even close to what they used to be.
For example, if you want to combine winterborn with neri, you need: 1) a class that allows you to do frost dmg 2) a class with frost based skills 3) skills with a snare strong enough to let both effects work and not miss most ofthe procs (otherwise it is a waste of gear) 4) a 3rd set that allows you to use as much direct dmg frost skills as possible.
Of course when the combo works and kills enemies is gonna seem OP, but what you can't see is this: 1) you will not have much mitigation 2) you will not have much spell dmg, something that impacts your dmg, but impacts even more your healing
Then you will die more often in that set up tha in a regular one with a dmg set, a recovery set and a mitigation set.
If you manage to fare well with the combo neri + winterborn, then it is not because the sets carried you, but because you overcame the drawbacks of that set up. And to do so, you need skill more than anything. Anyone can do well in a balanced set up. Unbalanced set ups are those which require actual skill.
You are using a very specific example that doesnt represent reality and the concept of proc sets. Their concept is that they do huge amounts of damage with minimal effort while they also allow you to turtle up since they actually dont scale with stats and allow you to be tanky while doing extreme damage. I played a sloads, caluurion, valkyn back in the day. I was just randomly pressing buttons, no combos, no thinking. Just randomly pressing buttons and the damage was ridiculous. And thats the problem. I was playing horribly but it didnt matter. My gear was doing the damage for me.
Im not saying all proc sets are broken. There is a place for them for example like eternal hunt with unique proc conditions that offer utility without being oppressive in terms of damage and requiring skill to be effective, but sets like X% chance of dealing Y% damage while light attacking type of proc sets that can reliably be used as ur main source of damage are fundamentally horribly designed.
Well, with that regard I agree that proc sets that requires you just to LA are quite bad. But regarding the rest, which are the majority, what do we say?
I wish I could ever make work Storm Master, a set whose proc conditions are really stupid (a full heavy crit attack) which re now even more stupid with the current base crit chance... compared to Undaunted unveaver and infiltrator, that gives you the bonus just by using a stam/mag skill...
I don't think how those sets are in the same league than old sload's.
On the other hand, theer are sets like Buffer of the swift that reduce your dmg a 10% in PvP... and that's huge. It's even more than minor protection. Alfiq gives you a little less magicka than Necropotence. So there are sets which are unbalanced in the Proc area, while there are also quite unbalanced sets in the 100% bonus area. In the middle there are those trash sets few people use... and those are the ones that need some love...Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I don’t think proc sets will ever be really good.
Whenever there’s been a decent proc set it’s been nerfed due to player complaints. Even if they did rebalance some, it’d cause a tidal wave of complaints.
Some classes like NB don’t have any delayed damage attacks so can use them somewhat effectively, but if ever one’s effective there’ll be crying because the classes that don’t need them will perceive an advantage. The game is littered with proc sets that weren’t overtuned that are now garbage.
Just roll with it. Play a good class with a well rounded toolkit and go for max stats.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Considering Skoria usually hits for 3-4k on most ppl, if your Leap is hitting that low you aren't getting any kills without zerging.PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP1 -
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[Deleted User]Soul ShrivenHello everyone,
Recently we've had to remove a few posts for flaming and baiting, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment or action on one's account.
Thank you for understanding.0 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Considering Skoria usually hits for 3-4k on most ppl, if your Leap is hitting that low you aren't getting any kills without zerging.
Exactly.Retired until we break the Tank Meta1 -
evoniee✭✭✭✭my velidreth rarely hit, but i keep using it because playing bloodspawn / prirate skeleton / skeleton + chudan / slime craw are boring0 -
ThePhantomThorn✭✭✭✭phoenixkungfu wrote: »Pro sets suck bc they can't crit
proc setts critting is what caused the procalipse. id be all for a test on the pts about it, but then sets like zaan would really start to get insane.my velidreth rarely hit, but i keep using it because playing bloodspawn / prirate skeleton / skeleton + chudan / slime craw are boring
yep.
running sets like bloodspawn and chudan are just boring. not only that, they contribute to the tank meta. proc sets are really fun to use, but they are so unreliable that it almost hurts.0 -
ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭Proc sets are just weird. Free damage for doing nothing but what you already would have done? Naw1 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Considering Skoria usually hits for 3-4k on most ppl, if your Leap is hitting that low you aren't getting any kills without zerging.
With all the mitigation available , when I leap on a resist capped player in no-cp It hits for about 5-6k on average. With stuff like major protection leap hitting for 3k is a very realistic scenario.
Keep in mind my stamDK has near 6k weapon damage and the leap tooltip is near 20k.(It would a many times higher in CP I assume, but CP also comes with mitigation and a lot more sustain+ max HP so it kinda makes no diffence) Thats some ridicilous mitigation people have access to.Edited by Ragnarock41 on December 16, 2019 5:13PM0 -
Imryll✭✭✭✭✭My PvP main is currently using Thunderbug, Trinimac's Valor, and Skoria, so three proc sets. It's really fun, especially Thunderbug, but my sense is that I'm paying too high a price in stats to be truly effective. I play non-CP so take that as you will.0 -
ThePhantomThorn✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Considering Skoria usually hits for 3-4k on most ppl, if your Leap is hitting that low you aren't getting any kills without zerging.
With all the mitigation available , when I leap on a resist capped player in no-cp It hits for about 5-6k on average. With stuff like major protection leap hitting for 3k is a very realistic scenario.
Keep in mind my stamDK has near 6k weapon damage and the leap tooltip is near 20k. Thats some ridicilous mitigation people have access to.
But with the major protec Valkyn would be reduced. Valkyn tooltip is much lower.ZarkingFrued wrote: »Proc sets are just weird. Free damage for doing nothing but what you already would have done? Naw
I dont understand why people think proc sets are free damage.
You lose stats for the proc.
Eg. New moon and eternal hunt. You lose loads of base wd but you gain tune proc.
Not free.
Tbh after thinking about it today I think only two things about proc sets need a change.
1 - sets like veli, widowmaker, Selene, need to have the reaction time reduced so they can actually land. In pvp earlier maybe 1/10 of my veli procs hit.
Such as rather than 1 sec veli should be .5 sec,
2 - proc sets should crit. Why not?
The procalipse was caused by sets like viper doing all damage instantly. Not procs critting. I don’t think there are any undodgeable / unblockable burst proc sets around anymore.
Of course this would have to be tested on pts. Then no harm done if it’s bad.Edited by ThePhantomThorn on December 16, 2019 5:18PM0 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭ThePhantomThorn wrote: »I dont understand why people think proc sets are free damage.
You lose stats for the proc.
Eg. New moon and eternal hunt. You lose loads of base wd but you gain tune proc.
Not free.
"Free" means no resource cost. Losing out on stats is barely a cost if you gain more than you lose.ThePhantomThorn wrote: »Tbh after thinking about it today I think only two things about proc sets need a change.
1 - sets like veli, widowmaker, Selene, need to have the reaction time reduced so they can actually land. In pvp earlier maybe 1/10 of my veli procs hit.
Such as rather than 1 sec veli should be .5 sec,
2 - proc sets should crit. Why not?
The procalipse was caused by sets like viper doing all damage instantly. Not procs critting. I don’t think there are any undodgeable / unblockable burst proc sets around anymore.
Of course this would have to be tested on pts. Then no harm done if it’s bad.
No and no.
If you want to land your procs, you should have to work for it eg. time your cc. All procs should be like those sets instead of being guaranteed dmg or automatically forcing the target to spend a significant amount of resources with little to no effort/cost on the attacker's side.
Proc sets have high base tooltips to make up for lack of crits/scaling. If they are allowed to crit, the dmg has to be nerfed significantly.
Edited by Rianai on December 16, 2019 5:52PM1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ThePhantomThorn wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Considering Skoria usually hits for 3-4k on most ppl, if your Leap is hitting that low you aren't getting any kills without zerging.
With all the mitigation available , when I leap on a resist capped player in no-cp It hits for about 5-6k on average. With stuff like major protection leap hitting for 3k is a very realistic scenario.
Keep in mind my stamDK has near 6k weapon damage and the leap tooltip is near 20k. Thats some ridicilous mitigation people have access to.
But with the major protec Valkyn would be reduced. Valkyn tooltip is much lower.ZarkingFrued wrote: »Proc sets are just weird. Free damage for doing nothing but what you already would have done? Naw
I dont understand why people think proc sets are free damage.
You lose stats for the proc.
Eg. New moon and eternal hunt. You lose loads of base wd but you gain tune proc.
Not free.
Tbh after thinking about it today I think only two things about proc sets need a change.
1 - sets like veli, widowmaker, Selene, need to have the reaction time reduced so they can actually land. In pvp earlier maybe 1/10 of my veli procs hit.
Such as rather than 1 sec veli should be .5 sec,
2 - proc sets should crit. Why not?
The procalipse was caused by sets like viper doing all damage instantly. Not procs critting. I don’t think there are any undodgeable / unblockable burst proc sets around anymore.
Of course this would have to be tested on pts. Then no harm done if it’s bad.
So what you are saying is basically that sets almost being instant cast with tooltips pushing 20k and being able to crit are balanced because you lose 300 wpd dmg from hundings rage to get that effect. Got it, just when u thought it couldn't get any more ridiculous.0 -
ThePhantomThorn✭✭✭✭ThePhantomThorn wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Considering Skoria usually hits for 3-4k on most ppl, if your Leap is hitting that low you aren't getting any kills without zerging.
With all the mitigation available , when I leap on a resist capped player in no-cp It hits for about 5-6k on average. With stuff like major protection leap hitting for 3k is a very realistic scenario.
Keep in mind my stamDK has near 6k weapon damage and the leap tooltip is near 20k. Thats some ridicilous mitigation people have access to.
But with the major protec Valkyn would be reduced. Valkyn tooltip is much lower.ZarkingFrued wrote: »Proc sets are just weird. Free damage for doing nothing but what you already would have done? Naw
I dont understand why people think proc sets are free damage.
You lose stats for the proc.
Eg. New moon and eternal hunt. You lose loads of base wd but you gain tune proc.
Not free.
Tbh after thinking about it today I think only two things about proc sets need a change.
1 - sets like veli, widowmaker, Selene, need to have the reaction time reduced so they can actually land. In pvp earlier maybe 1/10 of my veli procs hit.
Such as rather than 1 sec veli should be .5 sec,
2 - proc sets should crit. Why not?
The procalipse was caused by sets like viper doing all damage instantly. Not procs critting. I don’t think there are any undodgeable / unblockable burst proc sets around anymore.
Of course this would have to be tested on pts. Then no harm done if it’s bad.
So what you are saying is basically that sets almost being instant cast with tooltips pushing 20k and being able to crit are balanced because you lose 300 wpd dmg from hundings rage to get that effect. Got it, just when u thought it couldn't get any more ridiculous.
i have said this numerous times.
they have a % chance.
they have a cooldownThePhantomThorn wrote: »I dont understand why people think proc sets are free damage.
You lose stats for the proc.
Eg. New moon and eternal hunt. You lose loads of base wd but you gain tune proc.
Not free.
"Free" means no resource cost. Losing out on stats is barely a cost if you gain more than you lose.ThePhantomThorn wrote: »Tbh after thinking about it today I think only two things about proc sets need a change.
1 - sets like veli, widowmaker, Selene, need to have the reaction time reduced so they can actually land. In pvp earlier maybe 1/10 of my veli procs hit.
Such as rather than 1 sec veli should be .5 sec,
2 - proc sets should crit. Why not?
The procalipse was caused by sets like viper doing all damage instantly. Not procs critting. I don’t think there are any undodgeable / unblockable burst proc sets around anymore.
Of course this would have to be tested on pts. Then no harm done if it’s bad.
No and no.
If you want to land your procs, you should have to work for it eg. time your cc. All procs should be like those sets instead of being guaranteed dmg or automatically forcing the target to spend a significant amount of resources with little to no effort/cost on the attacker's side.
Proc sets have high base tooltips to make up for lack of crits/scaling. If they are allowed to crit, the dmg has to be nerfed significantly.
the thing with working for procs i can understand. however, a set like selene, having a 1.3 sec cast time. or veli, having a 1 sec cast time, they are just too hard to hit. timing cc is great on paper, but because of immovabe pots and simply the target being cc immune, means that often, it just doesnt work. and im not asking for them to be unavoidable, just a little harder to. find that sweet spot.
ill have to disagree on point 2. sets like eternal hunt have a 8k tooltip. thats 4k after battle spirit. then apply resistances.
or what about
nerieneth. 9k tooltip. after battle spirit makes 4.5, than resistances.
dont forget both of these are easy to avoid and take a lot of skill to land procs.
sure, zaan and Caluurion's might be overtuned but they could be adjusted.
and not to mention impen...
tbh, proc sets stopped critting because of a few select sets over preforming. (old viper, old veli, old selene, old widowmaker)
this severely nerf all proc sets. even the ones that wernt over preforming. such as way of fire, or eternal hunt.
id be happy if some proc sets (zaan, Caluurion's,) that have very high tooltips, that were added after the nerf, to be reduced slightly. but as i mentioned, some sets didnt need a nerf, but got a blanket nerf.
and, if they were tested on the pts, and were op. no harm done.0 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »With all the mitigation available , when I leap on a resist capped player in no-cp It hits for about 5-6k on average. With stuff like major protection leap hitting for 3k is a very realistic scenario.
Keep in mind my stamDK has near 6k weapon damage and the leap tooltip is near 20k.(It would a many times higher in CP I assume, but CP also comes with mitigation and a lot more sustain+ max HP so it kinda makes no diffence) Thats some ridicilous mitigation people have access to.
Yeah so with all that mitigation factored in a Skoria on that death recap would be like 1-2k. Possibly less. So in other words, if you have a recap like that, you probably got rolled by a zerg while in your buddy's permafrost.PC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP0 -
regime211✭✭✭✭✭
✭ThePhantomThorn wrote: »So proc sets are a sensitive topic among long term players.
but are they all that bad?
viper for example. used to deal 12k? instant damage and could crit. now is 6.4k over 4 secs. and no crit.
i understand why they were op. undodgable procs that oneshotted... fun but op and bad overall.
but atm, very few proc sets are even viable.
sets like veli in my opinion are fine. avoidable, but deal good damage if hit.
however alot of proc sets are very underwhelming and almost useless.
i think buffing a few of the less viable proc sets would add some build diversity to endgame pvp.
so imo we need a middle ground where proc sets are viable, and good. but not op.
eg, a change that i would like to see to vipers, is the set would have a 50% chance to deal 8k (tooltip) instant damage on a melee attack with a 4 - 6 sec cooldown. this would not be able to crit of course. and for comparison veli has a 13k tooltip.
any thoughts?
and please take no notice of @pieratsos he is being rude and not contributing to this thread
Proc sets aren't even as good anymore to be honest, I would NOT even bother wasting my time bring concerned about them anymore.0 -
ThePhantomThorn✭✭✭✭ok looking at my build today i have a few quick points.
eternal hunt tooltip in cp is around 10k.
battle spirit makes 5k.
then add cp and other mitigation and that 10k looks more like 2k. is that ok for an easy to avoid proc?
or selene. 16k. battle spirit makes 8k, then mitigation. hits for 3 - 4k. for a set that requires a lot of skill to land, not much reward.
zaan and Caluurion's are ok as they are. but sets like the previously mentioned do too low damage to be viable. hence the reason why proc sets should crit. just nerf the ones that came in after the nerf.
so if i compared eternal hunt to new moon.
if i got a rune proc on an incap + bow, for example, my new moon would hit far harder, despite the hard to hit proc landing perfectly.
i understand why some people would be concerned that this would end up making another procalipse but at least test it on the pts.
proc sets stopped critting because some sets were op. these op sets have since been nerfed. now selene, veli, tremor and widowmaker all have proc times, and vipers is a dot.
no reason for the nerf to remain.
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Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ThePhantomThorn wrote: »proc sets stopped critting because some sets were op. these op sets have since been nerfed. now selene, veli, tremor and widowmaker all have proc times, and vipers is a dot.
no reason for the nerf to remain.
Says the NB main, the class besides sorc, that benefited most from proc sets doing ridiculous damage and the class that can force them to crit by stealthing. Yeah, no.
Damage should be done by players actively, not passively by a set. And if you think those sets were the only problem, you obviously had no idea how strong combat physician, prayer shawl, bahraha's curse, syvarra scales, fire, red mountain, iceheart, valkyn, infernal guardian, etc. were and in some cases on live still are if you're willing to build or play around the sets.
Can't forget all the healing sets and how broken they were as well, especially when stacked.
If you think the tank meta is bad now, just re-buff proc sets and you will see a definitely tank meta unlike any the game has ever seen.1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »With all the mitigation available , when I leap on a resist capped player in no-cp It hits for about 5-6k on average. With stuff like major protection leap hitting for 3k is a very realistic scenario.
The actual scenario is the Skoria wearer has 43k HP and one of their other sets is something like Bahraha's Curse. Zergers love Skoria, especially 43k HP DKs and all those Templars spamming beams at full health targets.Retired until we break the Tank Meta0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ThePhantomThorn wrote: »but atm, very few proc sets are even viable.
Viable used in a vacuum is very vague.
Are most proc sets viable for leaderboard topping score runs in vet trials? Some yes (monster sets) and most no.
Are proc set viable for a lesser experienced player to help them do ok with doing damage, yes. In most cases, or all, they require less skill to get the damage out.
Player skill should always trump the use of procs doing the heavy lifting.
which ironically isnt the case anymore in an increasing number of class and gear combinations - especially for magica builds this time.
this is due to the numerous nerfs to skills and mechanics that made proccs the go to meta again - because with some classes at this point you look at your toolkit and think: what am i going to kill pll with??? with only proccs allowing to layer enough dmg to kill a non braindead opponent...Edited by Derra on December 18, 2019 1:52PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
artal✭✭✭So i run in cyro vs stam dk 2h/snb and magblade. It seemed he was running fury and nma, magblade with alfiq and bright.
6 fights i killed them very easy with my dk. Next day they went proc sets. I struggled every fight. got them 2-3 times and they got me 2 times
The thing is there is no way for them to get me in normal dmg build while procs gave them that option.
Im not saying procs should get nerfed but for sure they are not deserving buffs.
I see proc conditions and cd being mentioned all the time as huge drawbacks but burst is what matters not cd. If you can align nice burst every 15 secs thats not bad. I have to time my burst with ult on wd/sd build to.
Im not some elitist, i also use proc sets from time to time to troll a bit, and sure it can be fun but its not demanding same skill level to be equally good.
Imo proc sets are here to stay but if that is so than there should be some proc conditions and delay to force people to at least think how to align them instead of just spamming skills and voila. Most of them are something like that and some that are not need to be looked at0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Zaan is crazy good. I don't know why so few people use it. I swapped Bloodspawn for Zaan just as an experiment and people start falling left and right in few GCD with little to no effort from my side. Not "lfg group players", but solo players who eagerly attacked me or tried to ambush me in resource towers and so on.0 -
khajiitNPC✭✭✭✭✭I’ve yet to run into a proc set that could delete me. Maybe when they could crit.
I personally don’t run proc sets, because a lot of the time there are other sets that are better. Upfront damage based on a chance is not something I like to gamble with. But I don’t look down on players who use offensive proc sets either — a lot of the time people who are dying to proc sets aren’t building properly, esp in noCP.0