Proc sets? good or bad

pieratsos

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Bloodspawn isn't free damage though. It gives you some defense and a bit of ultimate so that you can tune your build accordingly. It's not just "light attack to win". We need to stop empowering people who have no idea wtf they're doing in pvp. Proc sets, siege, forward camps, buffing light attacks -- you're not a better player the game was just made easier for you.

exactly. free defence and ult.
and who said proc sets are for noobs. theyre fun to theory craft with. im just asking for them to be more viable. not be able to 'light attack to win'

Ult is useless if you don't know how to utilize ur ults. Free resistances are useless if u don't know how to defend.

A 20k tooltip that doesn't give a damn about how bad u are and u can't keep ur buffs up and procs by light attacking is not useless no matter how bad the player is and perfectly describes the concept "light attack to win".

They are not fun. They are just horribly designed and promote unhealthy and skilless gameplay.

Show me a video of a competent player dying to procs only with no other sources of damage and you might have an argument there.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

A lot of them are complete garbage, and are strictly for "fun" builds.

The only viable ones are Velidreth, Zaan, Skoria (sort-of,) and (no-cp) Auroran's Thunder+Overwhelming Surge.

I'm not counting defensive sets. Technically Seventh and Fury could be labeled as "proc sets" too.

exactly
on my nb in nocp i run viper sloads valkyn. hits good damage, but really sucks against anyone with good hots. hence why sucks in cp. mostly its really fun to play.

Uhh, dunno why i bother but i did it anw. So i dusted off dear old selene from the bank and put it on a naked char with a random 2h sword and normal CP layout. Tooltip was roughly 16.5k. Add some multipliers like minor berserk or vulnerability and 20k isnt such a fictional number anymore. And guess how it procs... Bingo, from light attacks. Then i tried caluurions with a normal CP layout and minor berserk. And surprise surprise. 19k.

But oh yeah, i forgot, thats with CP and it doesnt count. We should use no CP as our standard. Well the irony is that proc sets are actually exponentially stronger in no CP which is the whole point why you are playing a full proc build in no CP.

So to recap, you prety much didnt address the point about the horrible concept of proc sets and you resorted to strawman arguments to make ur point, and you got debunked at ur own strawman arguments.

But yeah im sure, its prety fun to theory craft a viper sload valkyn build. Really intense theorycraft right there.

WreckfulAbandon

xylena wrote: »

Would you accept death recaps with Skoria hitting harder than its wearer's Ferocious Leap ulti, or Caluurion hitting harder than its wearer's Soul Harvest ulti?

The problem with many proc sets is not their damage, but their trivial proc conditions, like the aforementioned Skoria and Caluurion. Curse of Doylemish can reach near a 20k tooltip IIRC, but nobody uses it because it's too hard to proc reliably.

Also, it helps to be clear that you're talking about "damage proc sets" not just "proc sets" so to avoid pointless comparisons between Bloodspawn and Velidreth.

I mean aside from the fact that's pretty much mathematically impossible for Skoria to hit higher than leap in the same recap from the same user, yes, I would accept it. Even tremorscale + viper back in the day was usually not enough to carry a less competent player to victory over someone better. It made 1vX harder but still not impossible. Procs add an extra layer to theorycrafting and build diversity as long as it's not completely over the top numbers-wise.

pieratsos wrote: »

Nice strawman right there. Its almost like a trend when it comes to proc sets and those who defend them. Because you cant actually debunk the fact that they are horribly designed and skilless, you all resort to arguments like "show me a video of competent dying to just procs". lol

Nice, that was really smooth to insert the word "fact" into the argument when really just describing your own thoughts. I surrender to your masterful rhetoric.

I must say that one of the most fun things about running procs is all the salt you get from people you your gear killed

Xvorg

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Proc sets are fine as long as the numbers behind them are balanced.

"Letting your gear kill for you" literally describes every build in the game unless you run around naked

Nop, not even close. A set giving u weapon dmg or ult still requires you to actually play the game, perform ur combos etc. It gives you stats but it still requires you to utilize those stats correctly to be efficient, it still requires to L2P.

Procs however are a different story. No need to L2P. A bad player puts them on and his performance is astronomically improving. Just light attack and let the gear apply pressure and burst people for you. So yeah, letting ur gear kill for you is a prety good description for proc sets.

Don't you proc a set by... let's say... playing the game?

I mean if you want to proc a set like... let's say, affliction, don't you have to use... uhmm, dmg skills?

What about a set like... Livewire. Don't you have to receive... dmg in such a way the proc actually works? And to do so, don't you have to use, hmmm, a defensive playing style that endures damage done, such as healing or blocking?

I mean, I don't know any proc set that does something just by slotting it, except maybe Necropotence.

Did you miss the part where i talked about proc sets doing dmg specifically and not those giving you stat bonuses. I mean, that was exactly my point, go back and read again.

But proc sets also requires you to do dmg and perform combos, is a trade off in which you lose stat potential (resource recovery, extra sustained dmg, extra healing, extra mitigation) for some extra dmg that works under specific conditions. Saying it carries your build is a bit too much. I agree that old proc sets were bad for the game in general, but in its current state they are not even close to what they used to be.

For example, if you want to combine winterborn with neri, you need: 1) a class that allows you to do frost dmg 2) a class with frost based skills 3) skills with a snare strong enough to let both effects work and not miss most ofthe procs (otherwise it is a waste of gear) 4) a 3rd set that allows you to use as much direct dmg frost skills as possible.

Of course when the combo works and kills enemies is gonna seem OP, but what you can't see is this: 1) you will not have much mitigation 2) you will not have much spell dmg, something that impacts your dmg, but impacts even more your healing

Then you will die more often in that set up tha in a regular one with a dmg set, a recovery set and a mitigation set.

If you manage to fare well with the combo neri + winterborn, then it is not because the sets carried you, but because you overcame the drawbacks of that set up. And to do so, you need skill more than anything. Anyone can do well in a balanced set up. Unbalanced set ups are those which require actual skill.

pieratsos

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Bloodspawn isn't free damage though. It gives you some defense and a bit of ultimate so that you can tune your build accordingly. It's not just "light attack to win". We need to stop empowering people who have no idea wtf they're doing in pvp. Proc sets, siege, forward camps, buffing light attacks -- you're not a better player the game was just made easier for you.

exactly. free defence and ult.
and who said proc sets are for noobs. theyre fun to theory craft with. im just asking for them to be more viable. not be able to 'light attack to win'

Ult is useless if you don't know how to utilize ur ults. Free resistances are useless if u don't know how to defend.

A 20k tooltip that doesn't give a damn about how bad u are and u can't keep ur buffs up and procs by light attacking is not useless no matter how bad the player is and perfectly describes the concept "light attack to win".

They are not fun. They are just horribly designed and promote unhealthy and skilless gameplay.

Show me a video of a competent player dying to procs only with no other sources of damage and you might have an argument there.

Nice strawman right there. Its almost like a trend when it comes to proc sets and those who defend them. Because you cant actually debunk the fact that they are horribly designed and skilless, you all resort to arguments like "show me a video of competent dying to just procs". lol

its because people dont die to just procs.
people might have a proc on their recap, but they will also have a few spammables la ect. using a proc set with a build is like using hundings to increase skill damage. they both increase damage delt. in different ways.
you cant just kill with procs, or with the light attack spam like you suggested. it takes combos or sustained pressure WITH proc sets.

Did you actually compared hundings rage with proc sets that can hit harder than freaking ults?

Ok, let me ask you a question and answer honestly without changing the topic or using a strawman argument again. Take a very bad player as an example using 2 builds. One of them is a full proc build like urs and the other one has no proc sets involved. Which build will give said player better results? Remember, we are talking about a very bad player.

pieratsos

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Proc sets are fine as long as the numbers behind them are balanced.

"Letting your gear kill for you" literally describes every build in the game unless you run around naked

Nop, not even close. A set giving u weapon dmg or ult still requires you to actually play the game, perform ur combos etc. It gives you stats but it still requires you to utilize those stats correctly to be efficient, it still requires to L2P.

Procs however are a different story. No need to L2P. A bad player puts them on and his performance is astronomically improving. Just light attack and let the gear apply pressure and burst people for you. So yeah, letting ur gear kill for you is a prety good description for proc sets.

Don't you proc a set by... let's say... playing the game?

I mean if you want to proc a set like... let's say, affliction, don't you have to use... uhmm, dmg skills?

What about a set like... Livewire. Don't you have to receive... dmg in such a way the proc actually works? And to do so, don't you have to use, hmmm, a defensive playing style that endures damage done, such as healing or blocking?

I mean, I don't know any proc set that does something just by slotting it, except maybe Necropotence.

Did you miss the part where i talked about proc sets doing dmg specifically and not those giving you stat bonuses. I mean, that was exactly my point, go back and read again.

and please. they were making a passing statement. dont make a big deal that someone forgot a minor detail from earlier in the thread

My point was that damage proc sets are the issue and i compared them with procs giving set bonuses arguing that the latter actually requires you to play the game and use ur abilities effectively to get their effectiveness while the former doesnt cause it literally deals damage for with minimal effort.

And he replied with dont you still have to play the game effectively when using proc sets using examples with proc sets giving stat bonuses which is prety much the exact same thing that i said.

It wasnt a minor detail, it was literally the entire point of my argument and im baffled about the fact that you still dont know it considering that it was repeatedly pointed at you. Its like u are off topic.

ThePhantomThorn

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Bloodspawn isn't free damage though. It gives you some defense and a bit of ultimate so that you can tune your build accordingly. It's not just "light attack to win". We need to stop empowering people who have no idea wtf they're doing in pvp. Proc sets, siege, forward camps, buffing light attacks -- you're not a better player the game was just made easier for you.

exactly. free defence and ult.
and who said proc sets are for noobs. theyre fun to theory craft with. im just asking for them to be more viable. not be able to 'light attack to win'

Ult is useless if you don't know how to utilize ur ults. Free resistances are useless if u don't know how to defend.

A 20k tooltip that doesn't give a damn about how bad u are and u can't keep ur buffs up and procs by light attacking is not useless no matter how bad the player is and perfectly describes the concept "light attack to win".

They are not fun. They are just horribly designed and promote unhealthy and skilless gameplay.

Show me a video of a competent player dying to procs only with no other sources of damage and you might have an argument there.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

A lot of them are complete garbage, and are strictly for "fun" builds.

The only viable ones are Velidreth, Zaan, Skoria (sort-of,) and (no-cp) Auroran's Thunder+Overwhelming Surge.

I'm not counting defensive sets. Technically Seventh and Fury could be labeled as "proc sets" too.

exactly
on my nb in nocp i run viper sloads valkyn. hits good damage, but really sucks against anyone with good hots. hence why sucks in cp. mostly its really fun to play.

Uhh, dunno why i bother but i did it anw. So i dusted off dear old selene from the bank and put it on a naked char with a random 2h sword and normal CP layout. Tooltip was roughly 16.5k. Add some multipliers like minor berserk or vulnerability and 20k isnt such a fictional number anymore. And guess how it procs... Bingo, from light attacks. Then i tried caluurions with a normal CP layout and minor berserk. And surprise surprise. 19k.

But oh yeah, i forgot, thats with CP and it doesnt count. We should use no CP as our standard. Well the irony is that proc sets are actually exponentially stronger in no CP which is the whole point why you are playing a full proc build in no CP.

So to recap, you prety much didnt address the point about the horrible concept of proc sets and you resorted to strawman arguments to make ur point, and you got debunked at ur own strawman arguments.

But yeah im sure, its prety fun to theory craft a viper sload valkyn build. Really intense theorycraft right there.

ok. take your 20k viper and 19k caluurions and light attack someone to death in a proper pvp encounter. and yes. it is fun to theorycraft an off meta pvp build.

pieratsos

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Nice, that was really smooth to insert the word "fact" into the argument when really just describing your own thoughts. I surrender to your masterful rhetoric.

Well if u consider proc sets doing huge amounts of dmg with extremely minimal effort as skilled gameplay then you have extremely low standards about the term skill and known common facts normally dont apply to you.

I must say. One of the most fun things about those who defend proc sets, is that they actually think that its good theorycraft to throw a bunch of proc sets together and that it requires skill to play such builds.

ThePhantomThorn

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Bloodspawn isn't free damage though. It gives you some defense and a bit of ultimate so that you can tune your build accordingly. It's not just "light attack to win". We need to stop empowering people who have no idea wtf they're doing in pvp. Proc sets, siege, forward camps, buffing light attacks -- you're not a better player the game was just made easier for you.

exactly. free defence and ult.
and who said proc sets are for noobs. theyre fun to theory craft with. im just asking for them to be more viable. not be able to 'light attack to win'

Ult is useless if you don't know how to utilize ur ults. Free resistances are useless if u don't know how to defend.

A 20k tooltip that doesn't give a damn about how bad u are and u can't keep ur buffs up and procs by light attacking is not useless no matter how bad the player is and perfectly describes the concept "light attack to win".

They are not fun. They are just horribly designed and promote unhealthy and skilless gameplay.

Show me a video of a competent player dying to procs only with no other sources of damage and you might have an argument there.

Nice strawman right there. Its almost like a trend when it comes to proc sets and those who defend them. Because you cant actually debunk the fact that they are horribly designed and skilless, you all resort to arguments like "show me a video of competent dying to just procs". lol

its because people dont die to just procs.
people might have a proc on their recap, but they will also have a few spammables la ect. using a proc set with a build is like using hundings to increase skill damage. they both increase damage delt. in different ways.
you cant just kill with procs, or with the light attack spam like you suggested. it takes combos or sustained pressure WITH proc sets.

Did you actually compared hundings rage with proc sets that can hit harder than freaking ults?

Ok, let me ask you a question and answer honestly without changing the topic or using a strawman argument again. Take a very bad player as an example using 2 builds. One of them is a full proc build like urs and the other one has no proc sets involved. Which build will give said player better results? Remember, we are talking about a very bad player.

yes.
becuase.
proc sets.
have.
a.
cooldown.
like.
ults.

hundings is reliable 100% uptime. if i were to do a light attack dizzy swing on a dummy for 10 sec, what would pull higher?
5pc hundings or a 2pc carluurion. (no other set or modifiers) sounds like a fair test. idc about result but thats how you test things. would you like me to compare it to a skill? comparing sets to skills is hard.

as for your question. this bad player.
ill put them on my full proc build for example ( sloads, viper, valkyn )
they would die instantly because i have only 18k hp and 20k stam and rely on kiting and mobility to survive.
another build.
how about a magplar on sloads overwhelming and valkyn. mashing jabs
and a meta magplar. mashing jabs.
tbh there isnt much of a difference. sure one does higher, IF they get the procs. over a fair test period they would average the same.
in a pvp scenario both would preform the same until instantaneous death due to being a bad player.

ThePhantomThorn

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Nice, that was really smooth to insert the word "fact" into the argument when really just describing your own thoughts. I surrender to your masterful rhetoric.

Well if u consider proc sets doing huge amounts of dmg with extremely minimal effort as skilled gameplay then you have extremely low standards about the term skill and known common facts normally dont apply to you.

I must say. One of the most fun things about those who defend proc sets, is that they actually think that its good theorycraft to throw a bunch of proc sets together and that it requires skill to play such builds.

as i said in the previous post, my proc build ( sloads viper valkyn ) has very little hp and max stam. i also have very little wd compared to other builds.
my defence is dodging and kiting. with a few cloaks.
my offence is applying dots and hitting a few spammables. maybe throwing in an ult or an execute.
this is called a GLASS CANNON
that term refers to a build that is very weak defensively but very strong offensively.
this build is rather difficult to play. id say a 7/10. because of how squishy it is and how little stats i have to work with.

ThePhantomThorn

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Proc sets are fine as long as the numbers behind them are balanced.

"Letting your gear kill for you" literally describes every build in the game unless you run around naked

Nop, not even close. A set giving u weapon dmg or ult still requires you to actually play the game, perform ur combos etc. It gives you stats but it still requires you to utilize those stats correctly to be efficient, it still requires to L2P.

Procs however are a different story. No need to L2P. A bad player puts them on and his performance is astronomically improving. Just light attack and let the gear apply pressure and burst people for you. So yeah, letting ur gear kill for you is a prety good description for proc sets.

Don't you proc a set by... let's say... playing the game?

I mean if you want to proc a set like... let's say, affliction, don't you have to use... uhmm, dmg skills?

What about a set like... Livewire. Don't you have to receive... dmg in such a way the proc actually works? And to do so, don't you have to use, hmmm, a defensive playing style that endures damage done, such as healing or blocking?

I mean, I don't know any proc set that does something just by slotting it, except maybe Necropotence.

Did you miss the part where i talked about proc sets doing dmg specifically and not those giving you stat bonuses. I mean, that was exactly my point, go back and read again.

and please. they were making a passing statement. dont make a big deal that someone forgot a minor detail from earlier in the thread

My point was that damage proc sets are the issue and i compared them with procs giving set bonuses arguing that the latter actually requires you to play the game and use ur abilities effectively to get their effectiveness while the former doesnt cause it literally deals damage for with minimal effort.

And he replied with dont you still have to play the game effectively when using proc sets using examples with proc sets giving stat bonuses which is prety much the exact same thing that i said.

It wasnt a minor detail, it was literally the entire point of my argument and im baffled about the fact that you still dont know it considering that it was repeatedly pointed at you. Its like u are off topic.

he did this he did that.

ThePhantomThorn

and could everyone just listen to @Xvorg
he is actually making sense.
and sry for the like 4 posts in a row

pieratsos

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Proc sets are fine as long as the numbers behind them are balanced.

"Letting your gear kill for you" literally describes every build in the game unless you run around naked

Nop, not even close. A set giving u weapon dmg or ult still requires you to actually play the game, perform ur combos etc. It gives you stats but it still requires you to utilize those stats correctly to be efficient, it still requires to L2P.

Procs however are a different story. No need to L2P. A bad player puts them on and his performance is astronomically improving. Just light attack and let the gear apply pressure and burst people for you. So yeah, letting ur gear kill for you is a prety good description for proc sets.

Don't you proc a set by... let's say... playing the game?

I mean if you want to proc a set like... let's say, affliction, don't you have to use... uhmm, dmg skills?

What about a set like... Livewire. Don't you have to receive... dmg in such a way the proc actually works? And to do so, don't you have to use, hmmm, a defensive playing style that endures damage done, such as healing or blocking?

I mean, I don't know any proc set that does something just by slotting it, except maybe Necropotence.

Did you miss the part where i talked about proc sets doing dmg specifically and not those giving you stat bonuses. I mean, that was exactly my point, go back and read again.

But proc sets also requires you to do dmg and perform combos, is a trade off in which you lose stat potential (resource recovery, extra sustained dmg, extra healing, extra mitigation) for some extra dmg that works under specific conditions. Saying it carries your build is a bit too much. I agree that old proc sets were bad for the game in general, but in its current state they are not even close to what they used to be.

For example, if you want to combine winterborn with neri, you need: 1) a class that allows you to do frost dmg 2) a class with frost based skills 3) skills with a snare strong enough to let both effects work and not miss most ofthe procs (otherwise it is a waste of gear) 4) a 3rd set that allows you to use as much direct dmg frost skills as possible.

Of course when the combo works and kills enemies is gonna seem OP, but what you can't see is this: 1) you will not have much mitigation 2) you will not have much spell dmg, something that impacts your dmg, but impacts even more your healing

Then you will die more often in that set up tha in a regular one with a dmg set, a recovery set and a mitigation set.

If you manage to fare well with the combo neri + winterborn, then it is not because the sets carried you, but because you overcame the drawbacks of that set up. And to do so, you need skill more than anything. Anyone can do well in a balanced set up. Unbalanced set ups are those which require actual skill.

You are using a very specific example that doesnt represent reality and the concept of proc sets. Their concept is that they do huge amounts of damage with minimal effort while they also allow you to turtle up since they actually dont scale with stats and allow you to be tanky while doing extreme damage. I played a sloads, caluurion, valkyn back in the day. I was just randomly pressing buttons, no combos, no thinking. Just randomly pressing buttons and the damage was ridiculous. And thats the problem. I was playing horribly but it didnt matter. My gear was doing the damage for me.

Im not saying all proc sets are broken. There is a place for them for example like eternal hunt with unique proc conditions that offer utility without being oppressive in terms of damage and requiring skill to be effective, but sets like X% chance of dealing Y% damage while light attacking type of proc sets that can reliably be used as ur main source of damage are fundamentally horribly designed.

pieratsos

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Bloodspawn isn't free damage though. It gives you some defense and a bit of ultimate so that you can tune your build accordingly. It's not just "light attack to win". We need to stop empowering people who have no idea wtf they're doing in pvp. Proc sets, siege, forward camps, buffing light attacks -- you're not a better player the game was just made easier for you.

exactly. free defence and ult.
and who said proc sets are for noobs. theyre fun to theory craft with. im just asking for them to be more viable. not be able to 'light attack to win'

Ult is useless if you don't know how to utilize ur ults. Free resistances are useless if u don't know how to defend.

A 20k tooltip that doesn't give a damn about how bad u are and u can't keep ur buffs up and procs by light attacking is not useless no matter how bad the player is and perfectly describes the concept "light attack to win".

They are not fun. They are just horribly designed and promote unhealthy and skilless gameplay.

Show me a video of a competent player dying to procs only with no other sources of damage and you might have an argument there.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

A lot of them are complete garbage, and are strictly for "fun" builds.

The only viable ones are Velidreth, Zaan, Skoria (sort-of,) and (no-cp) Auroran's Thunder+Overwhelming Surge.

I'm not counting defensive sets. Technically Seventh and Fury could be labeled as "proc sets" too.

exactly
on my nb in nocp i run viper sloads valkyn. hits good damage, but really sucks against anyone with good hots. hence why sucks in cp. mostly its really fun to play.

Uhh, dunno why i bother but i did it anw. So i dusted off dear old selene from the bank and put it on a naked char with a random 2h sword and normal CP layout. Tooltip was roughly 16.5k. Add some multipliers like minor berserk or vulnerability and 20k isnt such a fictional number anymore. And guess how it procs... Bingo, from light attacks. Then i tried caluurions with a normal CP layout and minor berserk. And surprise surprise. 19k.

But oh yeah, i forgot, thats with CP and it doesnt count. We should use no CP as our standard. Well the irony is that proc sets are actually exponentially stronger in no CP which is the whole point why you are playing a full proc build in no CP.

So to recap, you prety much didnt address the point about the horrible concept of proc sets and you resorted to strawman arguments to make ur point, and you got debunked at ur own strawman arguments.

But yeah im sure, its prety fun to theory craft a viper sload valkyn build. Really intense theorycraft right there.

ok. take your 20k viper and 19k caluurions and light attack someone to death in a proper pvp encounter. and yes. it is fun to theorycraft an off meta pvp build.

And moving the goal posts again. Lmao.
I also played a sload, caluurion valkyn back in the day. Didnt think of it as much of a theorycrafted build. I just threw some procs together. I dont think that theorycrafting means what you think it means. And please dont tell me that you think that it actually requires skill to play crap like that.

ThePhantomThorn

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Proc sets are fine as long as the numbers behind them are balanced.

"Letting your gear kill for you" literally describes every build in the game unless you run around naked

Nop, not even close. A set giving u weapon dmg or ult still requires you to actually play the game, perform ur combos etc. It gives you stats but it still requires you to utilize those stats correctly to be efficient, it still requires to L2P.

Procs however are a different story. No need to L2P. A bad player puts them on and his performance is astronomically improving. Just light attack and let the gear apply pressure and burst people for you. So yeah, letting ur gear kill for you is a prety good description for proc sets.

Don't you proc a set by... let's say... playing the game?

I mean if you want to proc a set like... let's say, affliction, don't you have to use... uhmm, dmg skills?

What about a set like... Livewire. Don't you have to receive... dmg in such a way the proc actually works? And to do so, don't you have to use, hmmm, a defensive playing style that endures damage done, such as healing or blocking?

I mean, I don't know any proc set that does something just by slotting it, except maybe Necropotence.

Did you miss the part where i talked about proc sets doing dmg specifically and not those giving you stat bonuses. I mean, that was exactly my point, go back and read again.

But proc sets also requires you to do dmg and perform combos, is a trade off in which you lose stat potential (resource recovery, extra sustained dmg, extra healing, extra mitigation) for some extra dmg that works under specific conditions. Saying it carries your build is a bit too much. I agree that old proc sets were bad for the game in general, but in its current state they are not even close to what they used to be.

For example, if you want to combine winterborn with neri, you need: 1) a class that allows you to do frost dmg 2) a class with frost based skills 3) skills with a snare strong enough to let both effects work and not miss most ofthe procs (otherwise it is a waste of gear) 4) a 3rd set that allows you to use as much direct dmg frost skills as possible.

Of course when the combo works and kills enemies is gonna seem OP, but what you can't see is this: 1) you will not have much mitigation 2) you will not have much spell dmg, something that impacts your dmg, but impacts even more your healing

Then you will die more often in that set up tha in a regular one with a dmg set, a recovery set and a mitigation set.

If you manage to fare well with the combo neri + winterborn, then it is not because the sets carried you, but because you overcame the drawbacks of that set up. And to do so, you need skill more than anything. Anyone can do well in a balanced set up. Unbalanced set ups are those which require actual skill.

You are using a very specific example that doesnt represent reality and the concept of proc sets. Their concept is that they do huge amounts of damage with minimal effort while they also allow you to turtle up since they actually dont scale with stats and allow you to be tanky while doing extreme damage. I played a sloads, caluurion, valkyn back in the day. I was just randomly pressing buttons, no combos, no thinking. Just randomly pressing buttons and the damage was ridiculous. And thats the problem. I was playing horribly but it didnt matter. My gear was doing the damage for me.

Im not saying all proc sets are broken. There is a place for them for example like eternal hunt with unique proc conditions that offer utility without being oppressive in terms of damage and requiring skill to be effective, but sets like X% chance of dealing Y% damage while light attacking type of proc sets that can reliably be used as ur main source of damage are fundamentally horribly designed.

back in the day. summerset? when sloads was the most op thing ingame?
and yes they CAN do huge damage, but they are very hard to land in a real pvp scenario.

ThePhantomThorn

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Bloodspawn isn't free damage though. It gives you some defense and a bit of ultimate so that you can tune your build accordingly. It's not just "light attack to win". We need to stop empowering people who have no idea wtf they're doing in pvp. Proc sets, siege, forward camps, buffing light attacks -- you're not a better player the game was just made easier for you.

exactly. free defence and ult.
and who said proc sets are for noobs. theyre fun to theory craft with. im just asking for them to be more viable. not be able to 'light attack to win'

Ult is useless if you don't know how to utilize ur ults. Free resistances are useless if u don't know how to defend.

A 20k tooltip that doesn't give a damn about how bad u are and u can't keep ur buffs up and procs by light attacking is not useless no matter how bad the player is and perfectly describes the concept "light attack to win".

They are not fun. They are just horribly designed and promote unhealthy and skilless gameplay.

Show me a video of a competent player dying to procs only with no other sources of damage and you might have an argument there.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

A lot of them are complete garbage, and are strictly for "fun" builds.

The only viable ones are Velidreth, Zaan, Skoria (sort-of,) and (no-cp) Auroran's Thunder+Overwhelming Surge.

I'm not counting defensive sets. Technically Seventh and Fury could be labeled as "proc sets" too.

exactly
on my nb in nocp i run viper sloads valkyn. hits good damage, but really sucks against anyone with good hots. hence why sucks in cp. mostly its really fun to play.

Uhh, dunno why i bother but i did it anw. So i dusted off dear old selene from the bank and put it on a naked char with a random 2h sword and normal CP layout. Tooltip was roughly 16.5k. Add some multipliers like minor berserk or vulnerability and 20k isnt such a fictional number anymore. And guess how it procs... Bingo, from light attacks. Then i tried caluurions with a normal CP layout and minor berserk. And surprise surprise. 19k.

But oh yeah, i forgot, thats with CP and it doesnt count. We should use no CP as our standard. Well the irony is that proc sets are actually exponentially stronger in no CP which is the whole point why you are playing a full proc build in no CP.

So to recap, you prety much didnt address the point about the horrible concept of proc sets and you resorted to strawman arguments to make ur point, and you got debunked at ur own strawman arguments.

But yeah im sure, its prety fun to theory craft a viper sload valkyn build. Really intense theorycraft right there.

ok. take your 20k viper and 19k caluurions and light attack someone to death in a proper pvp encounter. and yes. it is fun to theorycraft an off meta pvp build.

And moving the goal posts again. Lmao.
I also played a sload, caluurion valkyn back in the day. Didnt think of it as much of a theorycrafted build. I just threw some procs together. I dont think that theorycrafting means what you think it means. And please dont tell me that you think that it actually requires skill to play crap like that.

my build is designed as a poison assassin themed build.
and i assume 'back in the day' refers to summerset?
in sumerset sloads was op.
and glass cannons take skill. the sets being run make no difference.

pieratsos

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Nice, that was really smooth to insert the word "fact" into the argument when really just describing your own thoughts. I surrender to your masterful rhetoric.

Well if u consider proc sets doing huge amounts of dmg with extremely minimal effort as skilled gameplay then you have extremely low standards about the term skill and known common facts normally dont apply to you.

I must say. One of the most fun things about those who defend proc sets, is that they actually think that its good theorycraft to throw a bunch of proc sets together and that it requires skill to play such builds.

as i said in the previous post, my proc build ( sloads viper valkyn ) has very little hp and max stam. i also have very little wd compared to other builds.
my defence is dodging and kiting. with a few cloaks.
my offence is applying dots and hitting a few spammables. maybe throwing in an ult or an execute.
this is called a GLASS CANNON
that term refers to a build that is very weak defensively but very strong offensively.
this build is rather difficult to play. id say a 7/10. because of how squishy it is and how little stats i have to work with.

Dodging and kiting is the main defence of stamblades. You didnt reinvent the wheel or did something outside of the box. Your build actually allows to go full sustain that will directly impact ur survivability as well cause you literally dont have to invest at all into damage since your gear takes care of ur damage.

Thanks for proving my point. You literally said that u are just applying dots here and there with some random spammables, maybe an ult if you feel like. Basically just randomly pressing buttons not having to bother with combos and stuff like that like normal builds cause ur gear is doing the damage for you and carrying you.

You are not playing a glass cannon. Glass cannons refer to builds that put everything into damage and use actual combos to do massive damage and builds like that in terms of skill cap are night and day difference compared to urs. You are not playing a glass cannon, you are playing a proctato build and its not difficult to play at all. Your standards of what difficult is are actually extremely low. First learn what a combo actually is and then come back and talk about skill.

pieratsos

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Bloodspawn isn't free damage though. It gives you some defense and a bit of ultimate so that you can tune your build accordingly. It's not just "light attack to win". We need to stop empowering people who have no idea wtf they're doing in pvp. Proc sets, siege, forward camps, buffing light attacks -- you're not a better player the game was just made easier for you.

exactly. free defence and ult.
and who said proc sets are for noobs. theyre fun to theory craft with. im just asking for them to be more viable. not be able to 'light attack to win'

Ult is useless if you don't know how to utilize ur ults. Free resistances are useless if u don't know how to defend.

A 20k tooltip that doesn't give a damn about how bad u are and u can't keep ur buffs up and procs by light attacking is not useless no matter how bad the player is and perfectly describes the concept "light attack to win".

They are not fun. They are just horribly designed and promote unhealthy and skilless gameplay.

Show me a video of a competent player dying to procs only with no other sources of damage and you might have an argument there.

Nice strawman right there. Its almost like a trend when it comes to proc sets and those who defend them. Because you cant actually debunk the fact that they are horribly designed and skilless, you all resort to arguments like "show me a video of competent dying to just procs". lol

its because people dont die to just procs.
people might have a proc on their recap, but they will also have a few spammables la ect. using a proc set with a build is like using hundings to increase skill damage. they both increase damage delt. in different ways.
you cant just kill with procs, or with the light attack spam like you suggested. it takes combos or sustained pressure WITH proc sets.

Did you actually compared hundings rage with proc sets that can hit harder than freaking ults?

Ok, let me ask you a question and answer honestly without changing the topic or using a strawman argument again. Take a very bad player as an example using 2 builds. One of them is a full proc build like urs and the other one has no proc sets involved. Which build will give said player better results? Remember, we are talking about a very bad player.

yes.
becuase.
proc sets.
have.
a.
cooldown.
like.
ults.

hundings is reliable 100% uptime. if i were to do a light attack dizzy swing on a dummy for 10 sec, what would pull higher?
5pc hundings or a 2pc carluurion. (no other set or modifiers) sounds like a fair test. idc about result but thats how you test things. would you like me to compare it to a skill? comparing sets to skills is hard.

as for your question. this bad player.
ill put them on my full proc build for example ( sloads, viper, valkyn )
they would die instantly because i have only 18k hp and 20k stam and rely on kiting and mobility to survive.
another build.
how about a magplar on sloads overwhelming and valkyn. mashing jabs
and a meta magplar. mashing jabs.
tbh there isnt much of a difference. sure one does higher, IF they get the procs. over a fair test period they would average the same.
in a pvp scenario both would preform the same until instantaneous death due to being a bad player.

Well caluurion is a 5 piece set so dunno why you would use 2 pieces. And no thats not how you test things in PVP but im not surprised you dont get it considering you dont seem to know much about it.

Yes there is a huge difference. Cause the player is bad and cant perform combos meaning his sets providing him with weapon damage wont do jack ***. While on the other hand he can play a build like urs, do no combo at all like you and just randomly press buttons while his gear ramps up the damage for him. You know like in ur case. Dunno why i asked you the question anw.

ThePhantomThorn

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Nice, that was really smooth to insert the word "fact" into the argument when really just describing your own thoughts. I surrender to your masterful rhetoric.

Well if u consider proc sets doing huge amounts of dmg with extremely minimal effort as skilled gameplay then you have extremely low standards about the term skill and known common facts normally dont apply to you.

I must say. One of the most fun things about those who defend proc sets, is that they actually think that its good theorycraft to throw a bunch of proc sets together and that it requires skill to play such builds.

as i said in the previous post, my proc build ( sloads viper valkyn ) has very little hp and max stam. i also have very little wd compared to other builds.
my defence is dodging and kiting. with a few cloaks.
my offence is applying dots and hitting a few spammables. maybe throwing in an ult or an execute.
this is called a GLASS CANNON
that term refers to a build that is very weak defensively but very strong offensively.
this build is rather difficult to play. id say a 7/10. because of how squishy it is and how little stats i have to work with.

Dodging and kiting is the main defence of stamblades. You didnt reinvent the wheel or did something outside of the box. Your build actually allows to go full sustain that will directly impact ur survivability as well cause you literally dont have to invest at all into damage since your gear takes care of ur damage.

Thanks for proving my point. You literally said that u are just applying dots here and there with some random spammables, maybe an ult if you feel like. Basically just randomly pressing buttons not having to bother with combos and stuff like that like normal builds cause ur gear is doing the damage for you and carrying you.

You are not playing a glass cannon. Glass cannons refer to builds that put everything into damage and use actual combos to do massive damage and builds like that in terms of skill cap are night and day difference compared to urs. You are not playing a glass cannon, you are playing a proctato build and its not difficult to play at all. Your standards of what difficult is are actually extremely low. First learn what a combo actually is and then come back and talk about skill.

'everything into damage' all three sets are into damage.
ok im going to say this for the last time.
i.
have.
18k hp and 23k stam.
10k mag
2.3k stam recov
1.2k mag recov.
3.8k wd
my 'combo'
is draining shot into pi.
throwing a ballista if its a sorc.
ambushing and doing some quick sa bash combos. COMBOS. light attack - surprise attack - bash
maybe an incap as well.
finish of with execute.

hitting spammables and ults vary on the situation, as any experienced pvper would know. why should i drop my ult if theyre squish af. or why should i hit my spammable if im going to be hit by a dragon leap. my gameplay is highly dynamic.
my combat depends on who im fighting. far from random buttons.
do you expect everyone to follow a set static rotation in pvp?

and what full sustain?

ThePhantomThorn

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Bloodspawn isn't free damage though. It gives you some defense and a bit of ultimate so that you can tune your build accordingly. It's not just "light attack to win". We need to stop empowering people who have no idea wtf they're doing in pvp. Proc sets, siege, forward camps, buffing light attacks -- you're not a better player the game was just made easier for you.

exactly. free defence and ult.
and who said proc sets are for noobs. theyre fun to theory craft with. im just asking for them to be more viable. not be able to 'light attack to win'

Ult is useless if you don't know how to utilize ur ults. Free resistances are useless if u don't know how to defend.

A 20k tooltip that doesn't give a damn about how bad u are and u can't keep ur buffs up and procs by light attacking is not useless no matter how bad the player is and perfectly describes the concept "light attack to win".

They are not fun. They are just horribly designed and promote unhealthy and skilless gameplay.

Show me a video of a competent player dying to procs only with no other sources of damage and you might have an argument there.

Nice strawman right there. Its almost like a trend when it comes to proc sets and those who defend them. Because you cant actually debunk the fact that they are horribly designed and skilless, you all resort to arguments like "show me a video of competent dying to just procs". lol

its because people dont die to just procs.
people might have a proc on their recap, but they will also have a few spammables la ect. using a proc set with a build is like using hundings to increase skill damage. they both increase damage delt. in different ways.
you cant just kill with procs, or with the light attack spam like you suggested. it takes combos or sustained pressure WITH proc sets.

Did you actually compared hundings rage with proc sets that can hit harder than freaking ults?

Ok, let me ask you a question and answer honestly without changing the topic or using a strawman argument again. Take a very bad player as an example using 2 builds. One of them is a full proc build like urs and the other one has no proc sets involved. Which build will give said player better results? Remember, we are talking about a very bad player.

yes.
becuase.
proc sets.
have.
a.
cooldown.
like.
ults.

hundings is reliable 100% uptime. if i were to do a light attack dizzy swing on a dummy for 10 sec, what would pull higher?
5pc hundings or a 2pc carluurion. (no other set or modifiers) sounds like a fair test. idc about result but thats how you test things. would you like me to compare it to a skill? comparing sets to skills is hard.

as for your question. this bad player.
ill put them on my full proc build for example ( sloads, viper, valkyn )
they would die instantly because i have only 18k hp and 20k stam and rely on kiting and mobility to survive.
another build.
how about a magplar on sloads overwhelming and valkyn. mashing jabs
and a meta magplar. mashing jabs.
tbh there isnt much of a difference. sure one does higher, IF they get the procs. over a fair test period they would average the same.
in a pvp scenario both would preform the same until instantaneous death due to being a bad player.

Well caluurion is a 5 piece set so dunno why you would use 2 pieces. And no thats not how you test things in PVP but im not surprised you dont get it considering you dont seem to know much about it.

Yes there is a huge difference. Cause the player is bad and cant perform combos meaning his sets providing him with weapon damage wont do jack ***. While on the other hand he can play a build like urs, do no combo at all like you and just randomly press buttons while his gear ramps up the damage for him. You know like in ur case. Dunno why i asked you the question anw.

my deepest apologies for my typing error.

if two equally bad players are mashing the same button they get killed. adding spell damage and max mag or a proc makes no difference to a bad player. the 'randomly press buttons' combo would have no effect. mashing jabs would be equally effective on a proc or non proc setup
a skilled player can make use of both as proc sets play differently to stat sets as they have a flat chance / condition to proc. which a skilled player can take advantage of.
and i will redirect you to the above post about my build.

and i am sick of answering your frankly stupid, close minded questions.
unless you have a reasonable contribution to this thread, please stop wasting everyone's time.

Rianai

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

there is no set that does anywhare near that amount of damage so stop using it as an example.

Zaan has a base! tooltip of 46440.

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I mean aside from the fact that's pretty much mathematically impossible for Skoria to hit higher than leap in the same recap from the same user, yes, I would accept it.

On a low dmg build this is easily possible.

WreckfulAbandon

Rianai wrote: »

On a low dmg build this is easily possible.

Even on a low damage build it would be close. Leap has a great damage coefficient. That's not a good example of dmg procs overperforming.

pieratsos

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

On a low dmg build this is easily possible.

Even on a low damage build it would be close. Leap has a great damage coefficient. That's not a good example of dmg procs overperforming.

Leap is one of hardest hitting ults in the game. The fact that sets being able to Proc with minimal effort are even comparable to leap is enough to understand their broken nature.

ThePhantomThorn

Rianai wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

there is no set that does anywhare near that amount of damage so stop using it as an example.

Zaan has a base! tooltip of 46440.

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I mean aside from the fact that's pretty much mathematically impossible for Skoria to hit higher than leap in the same recap from the same user, yes, I would accept it.

On a low dmg build this is easily possible.

While yes, some proc sets CAN hit as hard as ults, it’s rather rare.
For example, zaan. It has, as you mentioned, the potential to deal massive damage.
However, zaan is very easy to counter. Tbh I can’t remember any death recaps with zaan hitting me for any noticeable amount.

And with regards to the “low damage build,” who would be running a build like that?

But while proc sets CAN hit very hard, the fundamental issue is how unreliable they are. Valykn COULD proc in your burst combo, nuking a player. Or it could proc at another time, on a different player, or not proc at all. And many sets such as widow maker and Selene are so easy to dodge they are virtually useless

ThePhantomThorn

Oh and I think I should have said this much earlier
This thread is about proc sets and how bad they are in cp pvp. No cp is fine imo

Rianai

Zaan is only easily countered as nb - and even then it forces the target into defense, just because someone happened to light attack. The dmg it can deal is absolutely *** and counterplay - that can be countered too - does not justify those numbers at all.

And plenty of players run low (skill) dmg builds. Your own triple proc build is an example. Proc "tanks" are also very common. Procs hitting harder than ults is not that rare.
And the "unreliability" of skoria (or other procs) is a non issue because of the low cd, the trivial proc condition and because the user can actually time his burst arround the proc - but the latter would require a bit more than randomly pressing buttons, which seems to be too difficult for many - this is also the reason why sets like selene are "useless".

Also proc sets aren't bad with CP - it is just generally easier to survive there.

pieratsos

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

there is no set that does anywhare near that amount of damage so stop using it as an example.

Zaan has a base! tooltip of 46440.

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I mean aside from the fact that's pretty much mathematically impossible for Skoria to hit higher than leap in the same recap from the same user, yes, I would accept it.

On a low dmg build this is easily possible.

While yes, some proc sets CAN hit as hard as ults, it’s rather rare.
For example, zaan. It has, as you mentioned, the potential to deal massive damage.
However, zaan is very easy to counter. Tbh I can’t remember any death recaps with zaan hitting me for any noticeable amount.

And with regards to the “low damage build,” who would be running a build like that?

But while proc sets CAN hit very hard, the fundamental issue is how unreliable they are. Valykn COULD proc in your burst combo, nuking a player. Or it could proc at another time, on a different player, or not proc at all. And many sets such as widow maker and Selene are so easy to dodge they are virtually useless

Anyone actually. Procs do not scale with ur stats allowing you to completely disregard ur offense and focus on defence and sustain while the procs are taking care of the damage.

You literally said that ur build is a "glass cannon" but ur stamina is trash. That is the definition of irony. Glass cannon means putting everything into damage and yet ur build allows you to play with crap offensive stats and huge sustain capabilities without losing any damage. This is fundamentally horribly designed.

ThePhantomThorn

pieratsos wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

there is no set that does anywhare near that amount of damage so stop using it as an example.

Zaan has a base! tooltip of 46440.

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

I mean aside from the fact that's pretty much mathematically impossible for Skoria to hit higher than leap in the same recap from the same user, yes, I would accept it.

On a low dmg build this is easily possible.

While yes, some proc sets CAN hit as hard as ults, it’s rather rare.
For example, zaan. It has, as you mentioned, the potential to deal massive damage.
However, zaan is very easy to counter. Tbh I can’t remember any death recaps with zaan hitting me for any noticeable amount.

And with regards to the “low damage build,” who would be running a build like that?

But while proc sets CAN hit very hard, the fundamental issue is how unreliable they are. Valykn COULD proc in your burst combo, nuking a player. Or it could proc at another time, on a different player, or not proc at all. And many sets such as widow maker and Selene are so easy to dodge they are virtually useless

Anyone actually. Procs do not scale with ur stats allowing you to completely disregard ur offense and focus on defence and sustain while the procs are taking care of the damage.

You literally said that ur build is a "glass cannon" but ur stamina is trash. That is the definition of irony. Glass cannon means putting everything into damage and yet ur build allows you to play with crap offensive stats and huge sustain capabilities without losing any damage. This is fundamentally horribly designed.

That’s because I am sacrificing sets with a stam bonus like shackle or Spriggans for sets like Sloads and
vipers.
Putting all sets into damage. Same thing, just different damage sources
And what huge sustain? 2.3k stam and 1.2k mag is hardly huge. And remember my extremely low stat pool.

But back to the point.
Zaan can be counterd by los in any class. And simply by moving away. Not a nb skill.

On my build that you insist is low damage, my Valkyn tooltip is 4K under my incap. Hardly as high.
And there is no guarantee of the proc

And perhaps the proc sets not scaling with damage is not good. Maybe it should. Kinda the whole point of this thread

Rianai

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Zaan can be counterd by los in any class. And simply by moving away. Not a nb skill.

Does not work if the user (or rather "wearer") moves too. But i get it, it would require some additional button presses and that's too complicated.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

On my build that you insist is low damage, my Valkyn tooltip is 4K under my incap. Hardly as high.
And there is no guarantee of the proc

Most likely because of CP (Skoria is a mag dmg set after all). And it is still stupid to compare procs to ultimates. There is a reason everyone can only use one ultimate at a time. And it will proc if you have some dots.

ThePhantomThorn

Ok I am going to say:
This post is about how proc sets need to be edited to make them more viable, but not op, in cp pvp.
If you think proc sets are a bad thing, say that and leave.
Please respect others opinions and don’t insult others.

If you have something constructive to say please say it.

ThePhantomThorn

Rianai wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Zaan can be counterd by los in any class. And simply by moving away. Not a nb skill.

Does not work if the user (or rather "wearer") moves too. But i get it, it would require some additional button presses and that's too complicated.

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

On my build that you insist is low damage, my Valkyn tooltip is 4K under my incap. Hardly as high.
And there is no guarantee of the proc

Most likely because of CP (Skoria is a mag dmg set after all). And it is still stupid to compare procs to ultimates. There is a reason everyone can only use one ultimate at a time. And it will proc if you have some dots.

I can see what you mean now. Zaan, if the user positions themselves right can be insanely strong.
Perhaps too strong.

Valkyn however, has a very small (8%) proc chance. And while it does proc easily on dot builds, I think it is ok to have that cooldown.
As for the damage, which I failed to include cp in, you are right. On a mag class the set could very well hit as hard as an ult.
I think rather than reducing damage how about making it not lock on like meteor, and instead just drop on the location where it procs. Dealing x damage on that location, and y damage around it. Good compromise? Adds some counterplay.