PTS Update 24 - Feedback Thread for Nightblade

ZOS_GinaBruno · September 2019

This is the official feedback thread for Nightblades. Please read through all the changes in the patch notes and try them out on the PTS before providing feedback in this thread. Thank you!

actosh · September 2019

@ZOS_Gilliam

Thanks for adding aoe minor vul on Lotus fan, rly like it on my tank and free´s a set on our healers.

Dark Shade, is still kinda meh, since u get downtimes in aoe on minor maim, so stick to heroic ist is

.

Sustain is still okay on the class as a tank.

Would still love to see the drained wep/spel mg get transfered over to allies, but then it may would need to loose major brut/spell. But would be awesome as ***, to kinda buff your grp a bit.

Can give no feedback on STamblade for now.

SidraWillowsky · September 2019

Zalathorm · September 2019

1. Revert the grim focus nerf, which was nerfed on principle because you said that passive AND active damage boosts on the same ability was too much: You took away the berserk buff. You added damage mitigation on a DPS ability. Something that no stamblade in PVE wanted. Now, tanks use it but dont use the proc. Stamblades still have to use it, but dont care about the damage mitigation. Keep this a burst ability and add back minor beserk. Help the night blade tanks on a different ability.
2. You gave stam sorcs essentially the same ability, that does passive damage (increased LA's), 5% max stam, AND the damage on proc! Completely inconsistent.
3. Revert surprise attack nerf. Add major fracture back on it. The current debuff on it is a joke. Major fracture on the spammable makes nightblades a great mechanics class, someone who can be sent to kill the crystal, orbs, whatever more efficiently than other classes and gives them a niche.
4. 3. Revert incap nerf. Silence is beyond bad. As people have pointed out for months, incap is unusable because the silence is not debilitating, and will make them CC immune from more potent forms of CC.
5. Drain Power - Please make this ability usable in PVE. Having it give a buff you already get from weapon power pots make it essentially pointlesss. A good class AOE is needed!

Stamblades were in the 4th tier of PVE DPS. Simply reverting some of your changes will put them more even with stamcros and stamsorcs.

Lybal · September 2019

My answer there will be only as a Stamnb pov in pvp.

I won't talk much about balance, but more about gameplay and how the class feels, since idc that much if nb is bad or not, one class have to be in the lower tier, idc if that's nb or an other one, and I don't think it would lead to anything constructive to debate about that.

My issue rg is that these last patch made my stamnb more and more frustrating to play.
His burst became more unreliable with his 2 main burst abilities (Relentless Focus and Incap) that are now delayed and got a low hit rate against good players when used in a proper combo.
His defensive ult also became more unreliable with this cast time, it's used in contexts where I need to react very fast and most of the time I just can't do it, and I usually also need to block in these situations, leading in a lot of situations where I cancel it due to the fact that, in the panic, I block after using my ult.

To resume, there's too much counterplay to my burst and I don't have any reliable defensive ult (Undo bug and not working half the time is as frustrating as Soul Siphon), and it leads to a lot of frustrating situations.

And now, this patch nerf Shade, lowering his range from 36 meters in pvp with passiv to 22, which is very huge. apparently they said that the tooltip was bug in the live, so it's only 6 meter and not 14, but that doesn't change anything to my message.
This skill promotes a strategical gameplay, it's a very fun skill to use, very rewarding and difficult to master, and if I wouldn't complain too much if nb get a nerf, no matter his state, I really dislike that they decided to nerf this one very interesting skill.
The fact that they justify it to make it so it respects gapcloser standard really doesn't feel like a correct justification to me, it wasn't use like any other gapcloser, it's a very unique skill and I don't think it can be put in the same case of other gapcloser.

I just feel like my Stamnb is less and less funnier to play each patch, and the decision to nerf shade and not something else is another step in this direction to me.

brandonv516 · September 2019

Posted in another thread but I'm also listing it here. Please take the time to read this @ZOS_Gilliam

Hi there,

I'm going to comment on some NB changes from my perspective:

Shadow Image nerfed again.
-Yes it's only a drop of 6m but it will be noticeable, just like the cost increase was last patch.
*Need to confirm if this skill is currently buffed by the Assault passive (Reach) and also by Battle Spirit where 28m skills get a range buff - if so that 6m becomes much more and will be extremely noticeable!
-Decreased the damage - just silly.

Should Soul Siphon still have a cast time since it's a burst healing ultimate? Should the duration be extended?
Please consider these questions.

Soul Tether gets a heal buff. I'm salivating. That might be very dangerous!
Is it 50% of ALL damage dealt on the first hit of ALL enemies combined?
e.g. 5,000 initial damage x 6 still makes it a 15k heal.

Refreshing Path - I'd like to see some damage added back to it, but it would probably get it's heal nerfed so it's probably best left untouched - I'm torn.
*I didn't see a fix for it not proccing the Transmutation set like it did before Scalebreaker. Needs clarification if intended.

The changes to Lotus Fan are going to be interesting. I know many bombers who don't gap close, but I can definitely see them consider using it now so the entire group is hit with that Minor Vulnerability.

Mass Hysteria still needs some love. Attach a Minor buff to it already or something else that's unique!

The changes go Twisting Path, Cripple, and Dark Shades all make sense.

All for now!

Vlad9425 · September 2019

Problems with Stamblade and how to improve them:

Relentless Focus is an empty cast, uses up resources but you gain nothing for activating it and must build stacks - We need to be given something for activating the ability, maybe give us berserk back for 10 seconds because NB burst is pretty bad at the moment compared to other classes.
Surprise Attack Armor debuff is too weak and too awkward to apply - the current armor debuff is way too insignificant and may as well not exist, give us back Major fracture as this was a good tool to use against tanky builds or give us minor fracture for the group utility.
Incap strike silence is an awful and weak effect and needs to be removed - Onslaught and DBoS are way more effective than incap right now and the silence does very little to help nightblades. Add back in the stun to incap and remove the silence and call it a day with that ability.
Mass Hysteria - this ability is literally weaker than the fighters guild variant and it used to be a class defining ability - Add a slight snare to this ability as Stam NBs don't have very many snares in their kit anymore.

Everything else can be left as is but at least some kind of buffs are needed for this class.

MattVH · September 2019

Shadow Image is way too unique, indirect and pretty tough to master to nerf the range like that after all these years. There's been way too much time for us to get used to it's range. Increasing its cost made more sense (although I'd wish that the stamblade would stop being touched in every single spot in a negative way of late).

I get it. Its nice to have a rule and clear reason behind all the numbers, like range. But this skill is way more unique than all the other 'gap closers' out there and shouldn't be treated as such. It's way too different.

brandonv516 · September 2019

MattVH wrote: »

Shadow Image is way too unique, indirect and pretty tough to master to nerf the range like that after all these years. There's been way too much time for us to get used to it's range. Increasing its cost made more sense (although I'd wish that the stamblade would stop being touched in every single spot in a negative way of late).

I get it. Its nice to have a rule and clear reason behind all the numbers, like range. But this skill is way more unique than all the other 'gap closers' out there and shouldn't be treated as such. It's way too different.

+1 well said

susmitds · September 2019

Shadow Image range nerf will kill the viability of magblade open world outside gank builds.

Please rethink this change.

It is not a standard gap maker. Instead it takes four steps of pre-positioning, initial activation, kiting and finally teleport to pull off. A multi step process should reward more than a single step spammable gap closer.

It is one of the few skills in the game that rewards active thinking and planning. From what I checked in the brief time since PTS uptime was that the range nerf was feelable significantly and made certain maneuver styles impossible to execute now. In fact, the range feels so short now that I kept accidentally placing a new shade instead of teleporting, killing my magicka.

It is already a lot harder to sustain since the cost nerf last patch. Changes like this will push more NBs to gank rather than play skillfully.

An exception or rule breaker is direly needed here.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam

brandonv516 · September 2019

The fact that you consider Shadow Image as a gap closer, when in reality it's a strategic tool for escaping, shows how out of touch your are with your game.

Edit: Apparently it's a gap creator. I mean anything could be interpreted as that.

Off the top of my head, the following could be considered as gap creators:

Any hard CC (Flame Clench, Fear, etc.)
Any soft CC (Wall of Frost, Cripple, etc.)
Streak
Dodge roll

So make them all 22m range?

Thanatos_inside · September 2019

Shadow Image just dont touch it. Nb already need a buff and u r still nerfing it... From patch to patch.

Ragnaroek93 · September 2019

Thanks for nerfing mag and stamnb even more. After taking away fracture (which increased my effective damage up to 16% against resist capped tanks before) and defile from Stamnb you also nerf the dots by 50% (which magblade really relies on) and no word about the cast time on Incap. I can't even block cast the ability anymore on a squishy meele class for **** sake. Oh but Shadow Image surely needed a nerf, was just too op. When do we nerf Cloak? Can we just delete Nb from the game (together with Necromancer and Dk while you're at it)?

My build got straight up nerfed for three patches in a row now, completely ignoring that it's already out of meta since two patches. I'm so done with testing on PTS (I tested every single PTS for the past 3-4 years) and with this game. It's zero fun getting nerfed all the time (seriously, I'd rather have you to ignore balance completely instead of removing everything what is fun to play for the sake of balance which doesn't exist anyways). You promised us more class identity in this patch and all we get is another nerf festival. You're doing very well in killing off every hype around a DLC or xpac with these ridiculous combat nerfs.

brandonv516 · September 2019

It just feels like Cloak will be "adjusted" next patch.

I always said that would be the last straw but I haven't seen this sweet new Shadow Image yet, so only time will tell...

AuraoftheAzureSea · September 2019

I honestly don't know what to say other than I completely stopped DPSing on nightblade (and in general, but mostly because I main nightblades) last patch, and it looks like that won't be changing anytime soon.

I've said this in other threads but, stamina and magicka nightblade dps have more complicated, more dynamic rotations with less or equivalent potential damage, making them not worth the effort of putting time into mastering anymore because there is no reward for your effort in PvE. Why do stamblade when you could do any other stam class for less work? The amount that they've been hit is almost entirely due to PvP and I don't know how many times this needs to be said, but you need to separate your PvP balancing from your PvE balancing. You already do this with some skills, so why hasn't this happened in general?

Bring SA's major fracture back. Revert the changes to grim focus. It honestly blows my mind that you are giving sorc what is essentially grim focus 2.0 while ruining the nightblade version. The grim focus stacks are not helpful in the least. If I'm in a squishy place, I slot Blade Cloak (or even Mirage) instead of running a damage dealing skill. Damage mitigation that relies on not procc'ing a significant damage dealing attack (and the only reason you would even bother running this!), that is rarely even going to be left at max stacks, is just... not worth it. If I wasn't going to proc grim focus, I might as well run a different defensive skill. It's just, why? It's such a weird combination. It made sense before, but now?

For general (not specifically nightblade but still relevant) feedback, I like that spammables are coming back, because I hated the dot meta. I don't think nerfing damage across the board to this level is the solution to your problems. The new dungeon boss dps races (like vLoM) and vSS achievements were clearly designed around the current top tier damage numbers. I'm a diehard nightblade fan, and since the last patch I switched from dps to running a nbhealer. And just running through all of the vDLC dungeons in a short time frame with mostly the same players (but also some pugs), it's so very clear that the vDLCs get more and more difficult the newer they are. I am not necessarily talking about mechanics, but about the dps race elements for some of the bosses, and the ability for most people to accomplish speedruns.

If you are going to nerf dps across the board in some attempt and standardizing things, you need to also standardize the dungeons in the same go. It's one thing if dungeons are a bit harder, but it's quite another if players who used to be able to clear veteran DLCs - who know the mechanics - are no longer able to do so. It isn't wise to punish 99%+ of your paying customers because three trial groups stack stamcros and barely manage to beat your most difficult trials achievements.

Uh, back to nightblade. Right... as a healer and a tank, I have no complaints really other than no, I don't think refreshing paths needs to deal damage(referring to someone else's comment). What tank/healer needs that? DPS would run the other morph, anyway, and losing healing would not be worth it!

I only hope that I will still have other friends willing to run dps so that I can continue to nightblade heal or tank until this gets under control. If not, well...

Royalthought · September 2019

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Problems with Stamblade and how to improve them:
Relentless Focus is an empty cast, uses up resources but you gain nothing for activating it and must build stacks - We need to be given something for activating the ability, maybe give us berserk back for 10 seconds because NB burst is pretty bad at the moment compared to other classes.

Surprise Attack Armor debuff is too weak and too awkward to apply - the current armor debuff is way too insignificant and may as well not exist, give us back Major fracture as this was a good tool to use against tanky builds or give us minor fracture for the group utility.

Incap strike silence is an awful and weak effect and needs to be removed - Onslaught and DBoS are way more effective than incap right now and the silence does very little to help nightblades. Add back in the stun to incap and remove the silence and call it a day with that ability.

Mass Hysteria - this ability is literally weaker than the fighters guild variant and it used to be a class defining ability - Add a slight snare to this ability as Stam NBs don't have very many snares in their kit anymore.

Everything else can be left as is but at least some kind of buffs are needed for this class.

^^^
Big facts

SidraWillowsky · September 2019

AuraoftheAzureSea wrote: »

I honestly don't know what to say other than I completely stopped DPSing on nightblade (and in general, but mostly because I main nightblades) last patch, and it looks like that won't be changing anytime soon.

I've said this in other threads but, stamina and magicka nightblade dps have more complicated, more dynamic rotations with less or equivalent potential damage, making them not worth the effort of putting time into mastering anymore because there is no reward for your effort in PvE. Why do stamblade when you could do any other stam class for less work? The amount that they've been hit is almost entirely due to PvP and I don't know how many times this needs to be said, but you need to separate your PvP balancing from your PvE balancing. You already do this with some skills, so why hasn't this happened in general?

Bring SA's major fracture back. Revert the changes to grim focus. It honestly blows my mind that you are giving sorc what is essentially grim focus 2.0 while ruining the nightblade version. The grim focus stacks are not helpful in the least. If I'm in a squishy place, I slot Blade Cloak (or even Mirage) instead of running a damage dealing skill. Damage mitigation that relies on not procc'ing a significant damage dealing attack (and the only reason you would even bother running this!), that is rarely even going to be left at max stacks, is just... not worth it. If I wasn't going to proc grim focus, I might as well run a different defensive skill. It's just, why? It's such a weird combination. It made sense before, but now?

Yep... magblade's rotation has been horrifically unforgiving for a while now (and clunky!) and the amount of work you have to do to get DPS that's just OK isn't worth it. I tested a stamblade on the PTS today and their rotation is approaching that as well... an overly-dynamic, clunky mess, and its DPS numbers no longer make up for that. On magblade and now stamblade, messing up even once can drop your DPS by over 5k on a 6 mil dummy. In comparison:

Magden (my current main): the rotation's pretty dynamic, but it feels fluid and is easy to weave. Mistakes will obviously always result in a DPS loss, but it's not an automatic throwaway parse if that happens. My skills all reliably go off when a press a button, which I cannot say is a thing for my NBs. 21 mil iron atro DPS is over 10k higher than either NB spec.

Magplar (PTS-only; have parsed with it maybe 10-15 times): mash buttons randomly, trying to remember what Acast told me to do but messing up spectacularly. Still an easy 40k DPS on a 6 mil.

Stamcro (PTS only; I think I parsed exactly twice on this): I feel like I could pretty much bash my head into my controller repeatedly and still get 40+k on the 6 mil. The class is stupid powerful.

Stamsorc (PTS only; parsed maybe 15 times): the lack of class identity makes stamsorcs difficult. There aren't a lot of options in terms of skills, though I haven't tried in this iteration of the PTS. Its DPS is about on par with my stamblade -maybe a bit lower- but it's far more consistent. I don't go into parses with the sense of dread that I do my stamblade.

In terms of percent change, my 6 mil numbers are pretty similar for my stamblade and magden on live- around 50k DPS each. For the stamblade this doesn't at all carry over to actual game content, so I don't really play her. Anyway, in the PTS I'm hitting about 36k on the stamblade and 42k on the magden on the same 6 mil- that's about a 16% DPS loss for the magden and a 28% DPS loss for the stamblade. And that is JUST in a single-target situation, which is what stamblades are good at (or used to be good at). I've not yet tried a magblade in there.

Nightblades have been getting slowly dismembered for some time now, but up until Scalebreaker there were ways to adapt that didn't interfere with my level of enjoyment when playing them. However- my magblade became a thief, and the meta felt so weird and clunky on my stamblade that I just sort of gave up. While her numbers were ok on target dummies, this wasn't reflected when it came to actual gameplay. IMO there is NO reason to try to deal with the messy, awful stamblade rotation and playstyle (melee range without melee payoff) when I can remain comfortably far from enemies on my magden while dealing close to twice the DPS of the stamblade and actually staying alive.

My stamblade's going on an extended sabbatical at the very least... the class feels hollow. Maybe a year ago is was overperforming, but that hasn't been the case for quite some time now so these nerfs are just insane.

ccfeeling · September 2019

Why you guys nerf NB over and over ?
WTF

Deathztalker · September 2019

Some of the purposed changes seem to be off target? What is the plan to fix NB PVE ranged stamina DPS?

Mayrael · September 2019

Shadow Image nerf range is a overkill for magblade. Its our only tool to reposition, we don't have roll dodge, we don't have tankyness, we don't have heals or shields, we need this skill as it is to be able to stay in a fight without constant cloaking!

Please ZOS don't nerf shadow image this way, it is skill that can't be spammed.

It can't be used like Bolt Escape right away when someone gap closes you, you can't reposition again. You need to setup it, then move from it, and then you can open the gap again. It's one of the most demanding skills in the game and the "feel" of the distance we managed to workout through years will make sitting ducks of already one of the weakest specs (magblades).

Once again, don't do this! Magblades are in poor state, why are you constantly nerf us patch after patch while buffing other specs that don't require such buffs?

Mass hysteria - what about NB class identity? Why Turn evil, generic stamina skill is better than one of the most uniqe class skills (for very long time it was NB only move)? Is it so hard to give it some kind of secondary effect like disorient or minor breach?

Major expedition - Twisting path is last skill that can be considered as a good source of major expedition. I think major expedition should stay only on Refreshing Path (heal morph) as a uniqe support ability but Twisting path should have offensive secondary effect while major expedition from this morph should be moved somewhere else like siphoning strikes which would give this skill uniqe approach - it gives you major expedition or resources back.

Other option is to give major expedition to Shadow Image after placing the ability or/and after porting back to shade.

Magblades realy need good source of major expedition not bound to GROUND area of effect which is counter intuitive design - you need to stay in place to be able to move faster ????

Please, for the love of ESO, listen to us, stamblades are no longer top tier PvP class while magblades were recieving colateral nerfs which brought us to situation where stamblades are medicore at best while magblades are on the bottom of PvP food chain.

Mayrael · September 2019

Oh and as a comment to your Twitch explanation why shade was nerfed. It never confused me, I prefer to have shade at 28 m effective range with tooltip saying 36m than having 22 meters shade with tooltip saying 22m. It's not a QoL improvement, that's just unjustified nerf to magblade class. You really hate magblades do you?

master_vanargand · September 2019

Teleport Strike:
Lotus Fan (morph):
This morph now applies Minor Vulnerability to all enemies hit, rather than the original.
Increased the duration to 10 seconds, up from 8.
Decreased the damage per tick by approximately 47%.

Why does Ambush not buff?
Ambush requires buff.
I think Ambush needs the reduces movement speed of enemy.

master_vanargand · September 2019

Warden's Dive easily the off balance effect to enemy.
But, Veiled Strike the off balance effect to enemy only from sneaking or invisible.

This is very unfair.

So Veiled Strike should be buffed.

GhostofDatthaw · September 2019

Zos devs I'm magnb man. This class went from very versatile and exciting play in PvP to just a sloppy mess this is how I feel playing magnb now

https://images.app.goo.gl/fQdyFNBbD5Bz5Hz79

Please stop nerfing magnb ffs it's obvious no one in the dev team plays magnb AT ALL

GhostofDatthaw · September 2019

This could also be representative of how I feel playing magnb PvP now

https://images.app.goo.gl/SMkcrkjc2c9CaYXe9

Forgive my lack of linking gifs properly fellow strugglers.

The_Saint · September 2019

...
(sorry reading better next time)^^

Hamboot · September 2019

Shadowy image changes are a bad idea, kiting in Cyrodiil will be very difficult with the reduction to 22 m, it can already be quite hard to kite when outnumbered and the shadowy image morph helped a lot to trick the enemy and vanish, 22 m is way too small.

Grim focus, I hope there is some changes added to it, it's already very tough to land it if you are played with a ranged play style I would really really really really (really) love minor berzerck (or maybe major sorcery?) to be brought back, please!

Mass hysteria could uses some changes I would love to see some debuffs added to it , something unique like minor breach to make it superior to turn evil.

Also i wish impale execute being able to work at 50% hp like 150% increased dmg, and 300% at 25%-0% because sometime this execute is like cat poop, very difficult to land at 25% and it's dmg is so weak outside the execute range I mean waay to weak

Thank you!

nsmurfer · September 2019

zos, please reconsider your nerf to Shadow Image. As someone who has complained a lot about NBs in general being OP in the past(check my post history), I will acknowledge that they are now a husk of their former self. NBs are the worst class in Bgs and small scale and have no unique utility to provide others.

After I finally started playing NBs since a year(magsorc main btw), I considered Shadow image a useless skill as I could not effectively use it after being used to the easy teleport of Streak. Then I finally decided to watch good NBs to learn to use Shadow image. Nothing beats the thrill of the finally pulling off a good escape with it after hundreds of tries. Ever since then I have used it tons of times but still am far mastering it and can't use it properly.

It is the only skill in the game that rewards proper brainwork and planning, you can't spam it like gap closers or streak. THe extra range does not make it Op as it is a double cast and you are working with a fairly short timer so you can't go far beyond the scope of the shade anyways. Please just make it an exception to Alliance war range passive(like Cloak duration is an exception to the Shadow duration passive).

Edit: I did test in PTS, the range is way too low to justify the cost and time needed to properly set it up.

HowlKimchi · September 2019

I'm generally okay with the spot magblades are in right now. All changes I can accept. That's already a lot better since I was dreading that something might get ruined.

Minor change that would seem balanced and would improve the QoL of magblade offense maybe is to make it so you can launch the bow even if we still dont have 5 stacks but It'll deal weaker damage? I dont really have a problem with the current version but I see a lot of people saying magblade offense is clunky so maybe that would help.

I mean, that's how the stam sorc's skill works now, why not give it to the spectral bow as well.

kind_hero · September 2019

Please bring back class identity and make the magnb more fun to play.

Give the NB some burst damage, even if that means I lose some defence (let it be my choice), stop making me rely on dots, and make it, for damage dealers, a proper assassin class, like it should be. The NB should have the best single target burst damage.

Rework merciless resolve... it should activate quicker and make more damage. The projectile is to slow and does to little damage. Let us get the heal by other means. [edit] An other idea would be to make the bow proc from other abilities, the way crystal fragments procs for sorc. That is one of the mechanics I really enjoy in game... Like many people say, right now playing the nb feels clunky compared to other classes. You can get dmg reduction from blur or other abilities, like you can make refreshing path protect you the more you stay on it, etc

Veiled strike/Concealed weapon.. this should do more damage, maybe more damage if from stealth or if the enemy has some debuff, like offbalance/burning/chilled, etc...

Don't nerf shadow image, especially the teleport part

Many magika nightblades are asking for a way to use daggers, even as a cosmetic (for appearance)

Nightblade used to be fun!

Starlock · September 2019

I'm on console so I can't PTS, but to offer some thoughts (because console lives matter):

Adding major brutality and sorcery to the base ability of drain power is a nice change! However, I have a question about the power extraction morph. Does a reduction in spell damage have any meaningful impact in a PvE context? Do NPCs have spell damage values that can be reduced? Please do not add functions to class skills that are meaningless outside of PvP - that sort of design philosophy belongs in alliance war skill lines and nowhere else.
As I have often used soul tether as an "oh crap" to save my character from death, the change to this morph is a welcome one. Yay!
I don't have much to say about the other changes, as they are simply in line with the overall adjustments made to DoT standards. Whether or not that is a good thing or a bad thing I will not make any calls on because I can't test out how it feels on my characters for myself.