Ender1310 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Considering that AvAvA Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 (says so right in the groupfinder and which was originally groups of 8 to 24 players), I'd say that large organized raids are exactly who Cyrodiil is intended for.

Large, organized groups are not necessarily ball groups. My poll is about ball groups specifically.

VaranisArano wrote: »

If its performance issues that make someone advocate removing a playstyle, I say you'd do better to ask ZOS to fix the game's performance issues so we can ALL play as intended.

If its that you don't like that playstyle...well, we've all got playstyles we don't like and other people do. I dont understand why people think its okay to ask for playstyles to be removed when people enjoy them and are playing as intended.

I don't have a problem with large groups at all. I love big fights.

However, I think a well-executed ball group is bad for the game in multiple ways. There's the obvious performance impacts, but too often the playstyle isn't ball group vs ball group, it's ball group vs everyone else, and I think everyone else tends to have a bad experience in those fights. I used to enjoy those fights, but no longer because of how the game has evolved.

Anyway, I thought I'd see what everyone else thought.

Then I'm going to suggest you define "ball group".

Because I'm going define the term "large organized raid" as a group of 12 to 24 players running specialized group builds, usually in voice comms, following the calls of their leader, and often running tightly together and executing tactics as a group.

I suspect that my definition is inclusive of your "ball groups".

If so, then I will say again that the large organized raids are playing exactly as intended in Cyrodiil - whether that's raid v raid or raid v PUGs - and indeed exactly as incentivized by Cyrodiil's objectives.

Personally, I enjoy the raid v raid playstyle where my raid fights for objectives and the campaign win. That doesn't make other raid playstyles less valid in my eyes, any more than my dislike of being ganked off my horse or being bombed while repairing a keep door makes gankers or bombers a less valid playstyle that's presumably enjoyable for the people who play gankers and bombers. I don't advocate for those playstyles to be removed - I would advocate for performance issues (or bugs like Snipe desync) to be fixed so everyone can enjoy better gameplay in Cyrodiil.

So...By well executed tactics you are referring to stack on crown. Drop ult when we say. Use rapids when we say. Use heals when we say. My experience of "well executed" group tactics.

The play style is hands down garbage for everyone involved. You have to be extremely result driven in order to play like a "sheeple" following crown around and doing what he says the entire time.

For the rest of us that enjoy fun it's boring as hell to be pew pewing with zero effect as you avoid the path of the "Ball group".

So yes detrimental I think the ability to group should be dropped from Cyrodil. Players should be able to coordinate where and when they need to be at a place and what general tactics to use to siege etc but no visuals such as a crown to follow etc. That would be more realistic experience.

Ender1310 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Ball groups in theory are fine. However, there should be more disadvantages to running in a large ball group and there currently are not. Highly skilled players can combat ball groups with smaller teams, but it's still an uphill battle and pug groups will simply have no chance against an organized ball group, even if they have double their numbers.

Give us more tools to break up ball groups or punish players running those playstyles in some way so that it's still an option, but there is more risk involved.

Have proxy det scale up to 48 players (standard scaling up to 6 players, then exponential scaling up to 48 players). Maybe have other abilities scale up depending on the number of targets hit. We have some options currently, but they are limited.

Fighting a skilled ball group takes far more skill and coordination than is required to run in a ball group and my thought is that it should be the reverse.

The things that make a group better than large mass' of pugs or even multiple small man groups is not coded.....its because they communicate, test often, practice together, formulate strategies and perfect movement. This takes an enormous amount of time, dedication and effort that is dismissed by those being farmed as "sure I could do that, but I am waaaayyyy too good now to do it. So I refuse to do it." As a result they will continue to be farmed and lose.

Every time you attempt to do none of those things and think there should be a "hey use this I win button" you are just fooling yourself. I am sure most of us would not do anything but laugh if this were a football forum where people who didn't speak, work together and put in the time demanded the NFL change the rules so that a random grouping of football players could always win over a professional team playing with some new rule or standard. In effect, that is what is being asked for here.

It's not fine. It looks like crap and isn't realistic. Remove the ability to group in Cyrodil period. Or keep groups at a small group level.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ender1310 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Considering that AvAvA Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 2 to 24 (says so right in the groupfinder and which was originally groups of 8 to 24 players), I'd say that large organized raids are exactly who Cyrodiil is intended for.

Large, organized groups are not necessarily ball groups. My poll is about ball groups specifically.

VaranisArano wrote: »

If its performance issues that make someone advocate removing a playstyle, I say you'd do better to ask ZOS to fix the game's performance issues so we can ALL play as intended.

If its that you don't like that playstyle...well, we've all got playstyles we don't like and other people do. I dont understand why people think its okay to ask for playstyles to be removed when people enjoy them and are playing as intended.

I don't have a problem with large groups at all. I love big fights.

However, I think a well-executed ball group is bad for the game in multiple ways. There's the obvious performance impacts, but too often the playstyle isn't ball group vs ball group, it's ball group vs everyone else, and I think everyone else tends to have a bad experience in those fights. I used to enjoy those fights, but no longer because of how the game has evolved.

Anyway, I thought I'd see what everyone else thought.

Then I'm going to suggest you define "ball group".

Because I'm going define the term "large organized raid" as a group of 12 to 24 players running specialized group builds, usually in voice comms, following the calls of their leader, and often running tightly together and executing tactics as a group.

I suspect that my definition is inclusive of your "ball groups".

If so, then I will say again that the large organized raids are playing exactly as intended in Cyrodiil - whether that's raid v raid or raid v PUGs - and indeed exactly as incentivized by Cyrodiil's objectives.

Personally, I enjoy the raid v raid playstyle where my raid fights for objectives and the campaign win. That doesn't make other raid playstyles less valid in my eyes, any more than my dislike of being ganked off my horse or being bombed while repairing a keep door makes gankers or bombers a less valid playstyle that's presumably enjoyable for the people who play gankers and bombers. I don't advocate for those playstyles to be removed - I would advocate for performance issues (or bugs like Snipe desync) to be fixed so everyone can enjoy better gameplay in Cyrodiil.

So...By well executed tactics you are referring to stack on crown. Drop ult when we say. Use rapids when we say. Use heals when we say. My experience of "well executed" group tactics.

The play style is hands down garbage for everyone involved. You have to be extremely result driven in order to play like a "sheeple" following crown around and doing what he says the entire time.

For the rest of us that enjoy fun it's boring as hell to be pew pewing with zero effect as you avoid the path of the "Ball group".

So yes detrimental I think the ability to group should be dropped from Cyrodil. Players should be able to coordinate where and when they need to be at a place and what general tactics to use to siege etc but no visuals such as a crown to follow etc. That would be more realistic experience.

So, you want Cyrodiil, orginially designed for groups of 8 to 24, currently for groups of 2 to 24, to be redesigned because you dont enjoy the large organized raid playstyle?

And your vision is basically unorganized zergs and ...

Ender1310 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Ball groups in theory are fine. However, there should be more disadvantages to running in a large ball group and there currently are not. Highly skilled players can combat ball groups with smaller teams, but it's still an uphill battle and pug groups will simply have no chance against an organized ball group, even if they have double their numbers.

Give us more tools to break up ball groups or punish players running those playstyles in some way so that it's still an option, but there is more risk involved.

Have proxy det scale up to 48 players (standard scaling up to 6 players, then exponential scaling up to 48 players). Maybe have other abilities scale up depending on the number of targets hit. We have some options currently, but they are limited.

Fighting a skilled ball group takes far more skill and coordination than is required to run in a ball group and my thought is that it should be the reverse.

The things that make a group better than large mass' of pugs or even multiple small man groups is not coded.....its because they communicate, test often, practice together, formulate strategies and perfect movement. This takes an enormous amount of time, dedication and effort that is dismissed by those being farmed as "sure I could do that, but I am waaaayyyy too good now to do it. So I refuse to do it." As a result they will continue to be farmed and lose.

Every time you attempt to do none of those things and think there should be a "hey use this I win button" you are just fooling yourself. I am sure most of us would not do anything but laugh if this were a football forum where people who didn't speak, work together and put in the time demanded the NFL change the rules so that a random grouping of football players could always win over a professional team playing with some new rule or standard. In effect, that is what is being asked for here.

It's not fine. It looks like crap and isn't realistic. Remove the ability to group in Cyrodil period. Or keep groups at a small group level.

Unorganized zergs and small groups?

Mmm, yeah, I think we have a fundamental disagreement of opinion here.

I enjoy large organized raid play, though personally I found it much more interesting than you describe. Its possible I'm more results-driven, as the results on the battlefield with raid v raid or raid v zerg were fantastic and I'm a "Play the Objective" type player anyway, something the Cyrodiil campaign score rewards and my guild played for the campaign win. You dont enjoy that playstyle, and that's fine with me.

You also think its okay to ask for playstyles to be removed because you don't like them. And I don't.

And you also want ZOS to redesign Cyrodiil to eliminate large groups and I think that's unlikely given that's one of the original premises of the gameplay mode.

So let's agree to disagree, since I doubt there's a fruitful discussion to be had here.

Ender1310 wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Ball groups in theory are fine. However, there should be more disadvantages to running in a large ball group and there currently are not. Highly skilled players can combat ball groups with smaller teams, but it's still an uphill battle and pug groups will simply have no chance against an organized ball group, even if they have double their numbers.

Give us more tools to break up ball groups or punish players running those playstyles in some way so that it's still an option, but there is more risk involved.

Have proxy det scale up to 48 players (standard scaling up to 6 players, then exponential scaling up to 48 players). Maybe have other abilities scale up depending on the number of targets hit. We have some options currently, but they are limited.

Fighting a skilled ball group takes far more skill and coordination than is required to run in a ball group and my thought is that it should be the reverse.

The things that make a group better than large mass' of pugs or even multiple small man groups is not coded.....its because they communicate, test often, practice together, formulate strategies and perfect movement. This takes an enormous amount of time, dedication and effort that is dismissed by those being farmed as "sure I could do that, but I am waaaayyyy too good now to do it. So I refuse to do it." As a result they will continue to be farmed and lose.

Every time you attempt to do none of those things and think there should be a "hey use this I win button" you are just fooling yourself. I am sure most of us would not do anything but laugh if this were a football forum where people who didn't speak, work together and put in the time demanded the NFL change the rules so that a random grouping of football players could always win over a professional team playing with some new rule or standard. In effect, that is what is being asked for here.

It's not fine. It looks like crap and isn't realistic. Remove the ability to group in Cyrodil period. Or keep groups at a small group level.

Ruckly wrote: »

Ahtu wrote: »

Guilds who force their members to run certain builds are the ones making their members ineffective, not large zergs. Zerg surfers can create their own build and make sure they are effective in battlegrounds and Cyrodiil, whereas guilds with predefined roles' members are completely defenseless when separated from the group. As long as AP is around, these guilds will continue to be ineffective until they can stop making excuses and make the necessary adjustments, or fade from existence as more players catch onto the current era of armies dominating in Cyrodiil (Vivec).

Once groups get over 24 it becomes a mess. Healing spring/vigor spam is common. Being shielded by all the AoE HoTs. People disconnecting when they approach you so you don't face an even numbered force.

I run a blob buster build but it only works if I am on the server. Once I disconnect the battle is over for me. Disconnect attrition is a lousy tactic to win battles. If it didn't exist there might be something to blob wars. As long as it is a thing cyrodill prime-time is mostly creating and fighting the most epic battles. AoE lag attrition is a completely different battle and a completely different warfare separate from that consistent with Elder Scrolls lore. I very much doubt the imperials took cyrodill by causing the altmer to disconnect on approach in the 2nd age(I'm not sure what happened when just stating whatever as a case scenario).

ToRelax wrote: »

.

Soul_Demon wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Ball groups in theory are fine. However, there should be more disadvantages to running in a large ball group and there currently are not. Highly skilled players can combat ball groups with smaller teams, but it's still an uphill battle and pug groups will simply have no chance against an organized ball group, even if they have double their numbers.

Give us more tools to break up ball groups or punish players running those playstyles in some way so that it's still an option, but there is more risk involved.

Have proxy det scale up to 48 players (standard scaling up to 6 players, then exponential scaling up to 48 players). Maybe have other abilities scale up depending on the number of targets hit. We have some options currently, but they are limited.

Fighting a skilled ball group takes far more skill and coordination than is required to run in a ball group and my thought is that it should be the reverse.

The things that make a group better than large mass' of pugs or even multiple small man groups is not coded.....its because they communicate, test often, practice together, formulate strategies and perfect movement. This takes an enormous amount of time, dedication and effort that is dismissed by those being farmed as "sure I could do that, but I am waaaayyyy too good now to do it. So I refuse to do it." As a result they will continue to be farmed and lose.

Every time you attempt to do none of those things and think there should be a "hey use this I win button" you are just fooling yourself. I am sure most of us would not do anything but laugh if this were a football forum where people who didn't speak, work together and put in the time demanded the NFL change the rules so that a random grouping of football players could always win over a professional team playing with some new rule or standard. In effect, that is what is being asked for here.

Alright, let's look at some systems which influence the meta in favour of ball groups.

1.) Smart Healing
Makes AoE heals far more effective in groups exceeding the heal's AoE cap.
Makes all heals more effective compared to offensive single target abilities when used in a large group that makes targeting difficult.

2.) Limited bar space/single purpose skills
Gives a massive advantage to large groups who stick close enough together to support each other directly at all times.
Dramatically lower effectiveness of any player trying to be effective in different settings, thus pitting ball groups against unprepared enemies.

3.) Scaling support sets/skills
Provide an inherently higher efficiency to specialized builds in ball groups than a small or spread out group would receive even when using the same builds.

4.) Power disparity between PBAoEs and ranged AoEs / effective splash damage being tied to killing blows
Gives an advantage to groups sticking together in one spot in order to deal AoE damage, rather than spreading out.
Diminishes the defensive disadvantage against AoEs created by stacking up.

5.) Removal of ground effects via Negate
Creates a situation in which negatable ground based AoEs don't function well as area denial, giving an advantage to groups centered around PBAoE (which stack to deal damage), as you don't need to stack players to stack ground effects.

6.) Earthgore
Carries anyone, but more efficient in stacked large groups.

But yeah, these things aren't coded, really. They're more a result of the enormous amount of time, dedication and effort put in by ball groups.

Sanct16 wrote: »

I think a simple 20% increase on cost would be a better solution than the streak-treatment.

I think the easiest way to fix the game would be by removing soul gem resses in PvP completly. The main problem is that fights never end because dead players get ressed faster than they die.
It would result in fights being over much quicker and it would become more viable to fight open-field outnumbered.

Sadly it probably won't ever happen.

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Yes.
You can blame zerg which chase one player, but ball groups just killing pvp, bringing stupid farm to unorginized players, dealing lags, guild stacking hordes, ignores any damage. Those who enjoying just like to farm weak people.
Also zerg vs zerg is fun, even guild zerg vs pug zerg is fun. Because all have chances, and there can be random things which will affect the final fight result. But when you have ball group vs any (except other ball group) it's 99% wipe due to not fair combat.

Again I don't have any probs with outnumbered groups, but spamming heal bots, rapids, TS, timing ults, effective optimal trained ball group is a bull..t for everyone except them. Noone have fun and they just forcing ppl to quit pvp or even leave game.

We have very bad situation where battlegrounds are full of premades, and campagins are full of lags. guild stacking and ball groups.

Irylia wrote: »

It’s much easier running 16 than say 8.
Especially when those 16 have the ability to run more group sets/earthgores/aoe healers/aoe damage/rapid bots.
You just remove things that players should have to do themselves when in a larger group.
Snare immunity and speed? Here’s 2 guys spamming rapids on you?

Healing? You have dedicated 3-4healers with multiple springs on the ground and everyone in 30k *** minimum. With earthgores to pick up the slack.

Sustaining? Spam equilibrium and just get healed instantly by the springs and safety net of 16 players balled so targeting one is much harder.

Play 4-8 and you are held accountable for all of those things yourself. Each and everyone of your members has to hold up more weight while fighting the same or more ratios of enemies.

It is far easier to hop into a larger group.
That’s also why you don’t see said players in bg, small groups, solo v x (not zerg surfing), dueling.
They are less competent when stripped of these inherent advantages a ball /raid gets