Would ESO AvA be better without large ball groups?

montiferus

TBois wrote: »

There are plenty of other people who play in larger groups and can hold their own solo after swapping to an appropriate build for different content.

That hasn't been my experience at all. The vast majority of the time when those players don't have overwhelming numbers they get dropped pretty quick.

Edirt_seliv

TBois wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

It’s much easier running 16 than say 8.
Especially when those 16 have the ability to run more group sets/earthgores/aoe healers/aoe damage/rapid bots.
You just remove things that players should have to do themselves when in a larger group.
Snare immunity and speed? Here’s 2 guys spamming rapids on you?

Healing? You have dedicated 3-4healers with multiple springs on the ground and everyone in 30k *** minimum. With earthgores to pick up the slack.

Sustaining? Spam equilibrium and just get healed instantly by the springs and safety net of 16 players balled so targeting one is much harder.

Play 4-8 and you are held accountable for all of those things yourself. Each and everyone of your members has to hold up more weight while fighting the same or more ratios of enemies.

It is far easier to hop into a larger group.
That’s also why you don’t see said players in bg, small groups, solo v x (not zerg surfing), dueling.
They are less competent when stripped of these inherent advantages a ball /raid gets

I play all types of pvp content. There are plenty of other people who play in larger groups and can hold their own solo after swapping to an appropriate build for different content, and there are people like you described who only have time for/just choose to specialize in one type of gameplay.

I thought I saw an animosity video featuring a grp of 12 recently....watch out that's awfully close to 16.

12 is the new 8. Haven't you heard?

idk

Other. Those voting to say it would be better without ball groups are merely saying it because they run with groups that are challenged to deal with them.

Regardless, it will not change because it does not need to.

TBois

montiferus wrote: »

TBois wrote: »

There are plenty of other people who play in larger groups and can hold their own solo after swapping to an appropriate build for different content.

That hasn't been my experience at all. The vast majority of the time when those players don't have overwhelming numbers they get dropped pretty quick.

The ball groups I'm thinking of look to fight overwhelming numbers, most notably Dracarys. Are you talking about these same types of groups or groups like Army of the Pact?

zyk

Irylia wrote: »

It is far easier to hop into a larger group.
That’s also why you don’t see said players in bg, small groups, solo v x (not zerg surfing), dueling.
They are less competent when stripped of these inherent advantages a ball /raid gets

That's not really accurate. I'm going to avoid touching on current guilds and players, but past guilds like RAGE, Decibel, VE, Havoc, Haxus, Khole, NM, all had players who were very good at solo and small scale when they chose to do it.

Furthermore, lots of AvA players think BGs are total garbage. I don't play an MMO for 4v4v4 and if I wanted to play on 12 player public servers, I'd play a game good at that.

I know this will sound outrageous, but I didn't want to offend ball group players. I respect most groups like this. I don't know guilds in other factions as well, but I know a lot of AD guilds work very hard for their faction and I appreciate that. I just think the disparity between ball groups and everyone else has grown too large.

Ragnaroek93

Organized ballgroups are one of the reasons why Cyrodiil is lagging, that's enough reason for them to go.

Murador178

If Eso would make organized ball groups skill based they would be fine - but stacking on the crown and spamming aoes isnt interesting PvP. Ontop of that these groups cause lag... .

Idea:
Let aoe scale on number of players hit. If 20 people stack in one steeltornado they are all instant dead by it. This would encourage positioning and skilled teamplay and not we stack on each other with a few healbots and spam AoEs kind of gameplay.

Bigger groups would need to position and cordinate well adding a layer of depth to the gameplay. This change would also reduce lag since those bigger groups would need to split up to not get bombed. The skill cap needed to play in such a group is disguistingly low making it unrewarding for team players.

The_Shadowborn

Murador178 wrote: »

Ontop of that these groups cause lag... .

Okay I raid in organised 12 man groups on both Vivec and Sotha. The time we see the ping spike and frames drop is when we're getting faction stacked by 60+ players. But you're right those 12 and causing all the lag...

The issue in the current Cyrodiil meta is that the less competative oriented guilds are afraid to split off so the only action you ever seem to get now is when the faction blob moves to you. You'll be duoing taking some resources to get some action and unless you cut the keep of you get no one, once that is done you'll get 30+ people easily to take them back.

Zos needs to somehow create insentives for the faction blob to split up. Be that harsh scaling to capturing keeps where if there is 30+ people there the ap from getting the keep is extreamily low. Not perfect but somthing has to be done to eliviate the strain on the servers of 60+ people all running towards the same goal.

Murador178

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Ontop of that these groups cause lag... .

Okay I raid in organised 12 man groups on both Vivec and Sotha. The time we see the ping spike and frames drop is when we're getting faction stacked by 60+ players. But you're right those 12 and causing all the lag...

The issue in the current Cyrodiil meta is that the less competative oriented guilds are afraid to split off so the only action you ever seem to get now is when the faction blob moves to you. You'll be duoing taking some resources to get some action and unless you cut the keep of you get no one, once that is done you'll get 30+ people easily to take them back.

Zos needs to somehow create insentives for the faction blob to split up. Be that harsh scaling to capturing keeps where if there is 30+ people there the ap from getting the keep is extreamily low. Not perfect but somthing has to be done to eliviate the strain on the servers of 60+ people all running towards the same goal.

In the end the non organized pug groups try to beat u by numbers resulting in lag. U can notice when groups like zergsquad are online since the enemy faction will form a HUGE blob to beat them. Blobbing needs to be punished. At the same time these 12 man groups should also need to fear 2 good solo players if they are stacking.

The game just hasnt got the performance for it. Making a 6 man max group size campaign with weaker castle walls would be interesting aswell. I also played in a 12 man group and farmed alot of pugs - It gets boring fast so.

U cant blame the non organized pug zergs for increasing the blob size to team u out of that ressource or castle. Ur group could be seen as the cause of the 60 man blob resulting in lag. In the end u cant be blamed to want easy kills and wins...

Its not like ur 12 man group is hard to play. U are just alot better geared and cordinated stacking on crown using aoes...

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Murador178 wrote: »

The_Shadowborn wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

Ontop of that these groups cause lag... .

Okay I raid in organised 12 man groups on both Vivec and Sotha. The time we see the ping spike and frames drop is when we're getting faction stacked by 60+ players. But you're right those 12 and causing all the lag...

The issue in the current Cyrodiil meta is that the less competative oriented guilds are afraid to split off so the only action you ever seem to get now is when the faction blob moves to you. You'll be duoing taking some resources to get some action and unless you cut the keep of you get no one, once that is done you'll get 30+ people easily to take them back.

Zos needs to somehow create insentives for the faction blob to split up. Be that harsh scaling to capturing keeps where if there is 30+ people there the ap from getting the keep is extreamily low. Not perfect but somthing has to be done to eliviate the strain on the servers of 60+ people all running towards the same goal.

In the end the non organized pug groups try to beat u by numbers resulting in lag. U can notice when groups like zergsquad are online since the enemy faction will form a HUGE blob to beat them. Blobbing needs to be punished. At the same time these 12 man groups should also need to fear 2 good solo players if they are stacking.

The game just hasnt got the performance for it. Making a 6 man max group size campaign with weaker castle walls would be interesting aswell. I also played in a 12 man group and farmed alot of pugs - It gets boring fast so.

U cant blame the non organized pug zergs for increasing the blob size to team u out of that ressource or castle. Ur group could be seen as the cause of the 60 man blob resulting in lag. In the end u cant be blamed to want easy kills and wins...

I agree 100% zerg squad causing all lag on PC EU.

(ZS stopped running 3 months ago XD)

VaranisArano

Murador178 wrote: »

If Eso would make organized ball groups skill based they would be fine - but stacking on the crown and spamming aoes isnt interesting PvP. Ontop of that these groups cause lag... .

Idea:
Let aoe scale on number of players hit. If 20 people stack in one steeltornado they are all instant dead by it. This would encourage positioning and skilled teamplay and not we stack on each other with a few healbots and spam AoEs kind of gameplay.

Bigger groups would need to position and cordinate well adding a layer of depth to the gameplay. This change would also reduce lag since those bigger groups would need to split up to not get bombed. The skill cap needed to play in such a group is disguistingly low making it unrewarding for team players.

Bombers already effectively do that. That's a playstyle that takes more skill than jumping into a mass of players and hitting spin-to-win.

You pretty much just want to empower the 1vX playstyle to ridiculous extremes.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

If Eso would make organized ball groups skill based they would be fine - but stacking on the crown and spamming aoes isnt interesting PvP. Ontop of that these groups cause lag... .

Idea:
Let aoe scale on number of players hit. If 20 people stack in one steeltornado they are all instant dead by it. This would encourage positioning and skilled teamplay and not we stack on each other with a few healbots and spam AoEs kind of gameplay.

Bigger groups would need to position and cordinate well adding a layer of depth to the gameplay. This change would also reduce lag since those bigger groups would need to split up to not get bombed. The skill cap needed to play in such a group is disguistingly low making it unrewarding for team players.

Bombers already effectively do that. That's a playstyle that takes more skill than jumping into a mass of players and hitting spin-to-win.

You pretty much just want to empower the 1vX playstyle to ridiculous extremes.

I would love this idea to be implemented lol I can imagine the rage now one ball group could kill 100+ ppl so easily and almost never die.

frozywozy

Irylia wrote: »

It’s much easier running 16 than say 8.
Especially when those 16 have the ability to run more group sets/earthgores/aoe healers/aoe damage/rapid bots.
You just remove things that players should have to do themselves when in a larger group.
Snare immunity and speed? Here’s 2 guys spamming rapids on you?

Healing? You have dedicated 3-4healers with multiple springs on the ground and everyone in 30k *** minimum. With earthgores to pick up the slack.

Sustaining? Spam equilibrium and just get healed instantly by the springs and safety net of 16 players balled so targeting one is much harder.

Play 4-8 and you are held accountable for all of those things yourself. Each and everyone of your members has to hold up more weight while fighting the same or more ratios of enemies.

It is far easier to hop into a larger group.
That’s also why you don’t see said players in bg, small groups, solo v x (not zerg surfing), dueling.
They are less competent when stripped of these inherent advantages a ball /raid gets

Everything you described is true. The only part you forgot to cover is the challenge both groups put upon themselves.
A group of 8 may be looking to fight 20-30 if no guild or decent players are present.
A group of 16 can fight 40-50 if no guild or decent players are present.

In the end, the skills and experience required to face the challenge are pretty comparable, just different.

VaranisArano

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Murador178 wrote: »

If Eso would make organized ball groups skill based they would be fine - but stacking on the crown and spamming aoes isnt interesting PvP. Ontop of that these groups cause lag... .

Idea:
Let aoe scale on number of players hit. If 20 people stack in one steeltornado they are all instant dead by it. This would encourage positioning and skilled teamplay and not we stack on each other with a few healbots and spam AoEs kind of gameplay.

Bigger groups would need to position and cordinate well adding a layer of depth to the gameplay. This change would also reduce lag since those bigger groups would need to split up to not get bombed. The skill cap needed to play in such a group is disguistingly low making it unrewarding for team players.

Bombers already effectively do that. That's a playstyle that takes more skill than jumping into a mass of players and hitting spin-to-win.

You pretty much just want to empower the 1vX playstyle to ridiculous extremes.

I would love this idea to be implemented lol I can imagine the rage now one ball group could kill 100+ ppl so easily and almost never die.

It would do extremely interesting things to keep defenses with chokepoints and solo emperors would be even more of a beast, and that's about the only pleasant thing I can say about the idea.

frozywozy

Murador178 wrote: »

In the end the non organized pug groups try to beat u by numbers resulting in lag. U can notice when groups like zergsquad are online since the enemy faction will form a HUGE blob to beat them. Blobbing needs to be punished. At the same time these 12 man groups should also need to fear 2 good solo players if they are stacking.

A group of 12-16 players can get destroyed in a matter of a few seconds by a group of 1-4players with proper builds and coordination. I have mentioned this a good dozen of times in posts like yours already. Anytime a faction needs to gather more than 30 players to kill a group of 12-16, this is a huge indicator that the 30 have no idea what they're doing.

You are welcome to message me if you have any questions and I will be happy to help you figure this out.
I even have builds dedicated to counter and punish anyone who stack too close to other players available on uesp.net for anyone who is curious to give it a try. Always happy to help people get better at the game.

U cant blame the non organized pug zergs for increasing the blob size to team u out of that ressource or castle. Ur group could be seen as the cause of the 60 man blob resulting in lag. In the end u cant be blamed to want easy kills and wins...

Most guilds I have been into (IR, Invictus, Dracarys) absolutely favors guild vs guild fights over faction fights. The problem is that the scenarios where we will encounter an enemy guild without pugs around them are hard to find. Usually when we face another guild, we will kite away from a populated zone to try to get them to fight without any pugs around.

This being said, I don't consider fighting an enemy faction "easy kills and wins". Again, all it really takes to make an impact is one good player with a proper build and coordination to make the difference.

Its not like ur 12 man group is hard to play. U are just alot better geared and cordinated stacking on crown using aoes...

I don't understand the logic in your sentence. You are saying that better coordination != hard to play. Define hard?