STOP Faction Hopping and AP Farming

ServerusEcru · January 2019

A way to fix these issues:

We need a new point system in Cyrodiil and we must make players commit to the same faction for the duration of the campaign. What this does is stop Emp exploiting and it allows players who actually PvP a chance to achieve the Emperorship title. The Emperor should be a respected title, one you get from being a good PvPer, not an AP farmer. There are x, y, z groups in Cyrodiil currently exploiting this system. They are treating Cyrodiil like a PvE campaign, only to gain AP with no loyalty to the faction itself. They will pull the faction into a direction irrelevant to the point scoring system, just to farm AP and offer opportunities for the other factions to exploit on that factions weakness.

Please listen to us.

I have been loyal to the Daggerfall Covenant Faction since Beta (2014). I am an original backer who bought the Imperial Edition, hoping that Cyrodiil would be a place for us lovers of the Elder Scrolls to enjoy PvP and show our pride and strength on the battlefield. I am hurt and deeply disappointed that it has become a race to farm AP for other things that don't even concern Cyrodiil. We need to make Cyrodiil better and start by getting rid of the AP system and the faction hopping that is hurting our Vivec PC campaign. These issues are ultimately why DC is falling in last place. There is no loyalty to our faction and players are quitting to play in other smaller campaigns to avoid these politics. I ask all of you who have a love for this game and PvP to hear us out and please consider these ideas.

SIncerely, Serverus Ecru (Order of the Candle)

idk · January 2019

I thought by the first statement in the OP that a way to "fix" it was going to be presented.

I am really surprised by this post though as what I can only assume OP means by Emperor exploiting would somehow be solved with a faction restrictions when the same things that occur now occurred when we had actual faction locks. I have not seem different behavior now vs then.

Also, Emperor is still as respected it has always been, as a result. However, it certainly pales compared to the hype Zenimax put out pre lauch. I remember them saying it could be awhile before the first emperor was crowned when in fact is was a matter of hours that Entropy Rising guild had the first Emperor.

mayasunrising · January 2019

I don't necessarily agree that what the OP describes as Emp exploiting would really be solved by faction locking campaigns, but I do agree that players should be locked to one faction for the duration of a campaign - be it 7 or 30 days. If you want to play a separate faction for whatever reason (most times I hear it's because folk like to take breaks or play with friends) then join another campaign as a guest.

My understanding is this used to be a thing. Can any of the old time players illuminate as to why it was switch to the system we currently have?

barshemm · January 2019

Nah, I like swapping when the map is mostly owned by the faction I'm on to the one that has the least keeps. Some of us don't want to sit in the zerg at the enemy tri-keeps because there is no where else to go.

frostz417 · January 2019

No.
I like to farm AP for my rank and it’s fun to be on the losing faction so I don’t have mindless zerglings everywhere I go ruining good fights and good farms.

Sacredx · January 2019

Another player frustrated with the current system to add to the pile. This has been discussed in a lot of threads already but I am happy to repeat:

Some pointers first:

Faction locks will not happen because it will lock players out of playing with friends who may be on other factions. It's just not a good idea from a business point of view to do it. RL money talks.
AP farming to get emp. Yes this is essentially a pve tier activity. Anyone with time to play the game can get first place. You don't have to be good. I have been emp just because I was active enough in the game and not because I wanted emp. I agree this needs to be adjusted. And yes you can step aside but that not the point, you shouldn't have to.

Some possible solutions:

Loyalty rewards for remaining on one faction. Say +10% AP per day up to say 30% bonus. This allows players to swap if they need to or if they don't care about AP and at the same time benefits those who remain loyal to their faction.
Emp system. Rework it entirely. The current system rewards a single player for what is essentially a pve based system in a pvp environment, which is ridiculous. idk what the best fix is. I previously suggested that top 10 players get a scaling buff, a bit like a council of rulers. Reward those who put in the effort and not just 1 person. This is not a dictatorship after all.
Rework the faction points system. The current one is imbalanced and easily manipulated by back capping. Make your home keeps much stronger based on how many frontline layers of owned keeps you have. 1 layer = 50% stronger back keeps to discourage back capping. If 2 layers then the rss become immune to capping. This will prevent players from exploiting the rss flips before tick and essentially deciding the faction winner (another reason why the current point system is broken). We don't want players pveing in pvp, which is what is currently happening.
Faction balancing rework. Remove the current dinosaur low pop bonus and replace it with a dynamic AP scale based on pop imbalance. The bigger the pop difference the more AP the low pop factions get. Say 25% bonus for each bar difference.

ps. If you think x, y ,z will not work then post your own solution below, be constructive. Let the devs read the info and decide for themselves what is best. This is no way a best fit for all solution, just one person's ideas.

twitch_zero · January 2019

Sacredx wrote: »

Another player frustrated with the current system to add to the pile. This has been discussed in a lot of threads already but I am happy to repeat:

Some pointers first:
Faction locks will not happen because it will lock players out of playing with friends who may be on other factions. It's just not a good idea from a business point of view to do it. RL money talks.

Its for at most 1 month, if friends can't wait that long then are they really friends who want to play the game?

Sacredx · January 2019

twitch_zero wrote: »

Sacredx wrote: »

Another player frustrated with the current system to add to the pile. This has been discussed in a lot of threads already but I am happy to repeat:

Some pointers first:
Faction locks will not happen because it will lock players out of playing with friends who may be on other factions. It's just not a good idea from a business point of view to do it. RL money talks.

Its for at most 1 month, if friends can't wait that long then are they really friends who want to play the game?

It's not about playing or not playing with friends. It's about giving accessibility for players to play how they want to and not lock them out, which keeps them playing, which provides more opportunity for the company to make income. This allows for more budgets to fund ideas such as what players are asking for here. Think higher up the food chain.

Gaggin · January 2019

Sorry, but each faction has too many people i want to kill to stay on one.

MetalHead4x4 · January 2019

Gaggin wrote: »

Sorry, but each faction has too many people i want to kill to stay on one.

So play another campaign. The idea of popping in and out of every faction during a war is not only stupid but counterproductive. Its like building something only to take it apart again right away.

NBrookus · January 2019

mayasunrising wrote: »

I don't necessarily agree that what the OP describes as Emp exploiting would really be solved by faction locking campaigns, but I do agree that players should be locked to one faction for the duration of a campaign - be it 7 or 30 days. If you want to play a separate faction for whatever reason (most times I hear it's because folk like to take breaks or play with friends) then join another campaign as a guest.

My understanding is this used to be a thing. Can any of the old time players illuminate as to why it was switch to the system we currently have?

We had a lot more active campaigns. Now if someone wants to play no CP, for example, they have just one choice. Meanwhile people have made friends on all factions since 1 Tamriel.

There's another reason to switch factions: queues. If your preferred faction has a long queue you ether wait it out for what may be hours, play in another campaign you don't like as much while waiting, or you and your friends go play the faction with no queue.

Vapirko · January 2019

NBrookus wrote: »

mayasunrising wrote: »

I don't necessarily agree that what the OP describes as Emp exploiting would really be solved by faction locking campaigns, but I do agree that players should be locked to one faction for the duration of a campaign - be it 7 or 30 days. If you want to play a separate faction for whatever reason (most times I hear it's because folk like to take breaks or play with friends) then join another campaign as a guest.

My understanding is this used to be a thing. Can any of the old time players illuminate as to why it was switch to the system we currently have?

We had a lot more active campaigns. Now if someone wants to play no CP, for example, they have just one choice. Meanwhile people have made friends on all factions since 1 Tamriel.

There's another reason to switch factions: queues. If your preferred faction has a long queue you ether wait it out for what may be hours, play in another campaign you don't like as much while waiting, or you and your friends go play the faction with no queue.

There’s really only one campaign where wait time might be significant and that’s Vivec. And usually pops are pretty equal on all sides so I don’t think faction lock would really change that much. These days even Vivec queues are rarely bad outside of events and there’s always guest campaigns. Honestly I think the way to do it is honestly to cut down the number of campaigns, there’s already too many as is and they’re empty most of the day outside of Vivec. This is just how I would do it. Have two 30 day campaigns for CP (it’s by far the most popular option) one with faction lock and one with out just to see how it goes and then have a no CP seven day campaign. We just don’t need four campaigns plus Kyne and most people like playing CP.

ServerusEcru · January 2019

I sent this idea to Zos earlier this month regarding the abused Emperor system. I agree that a reconstruction is definitely needed. We need a system that will reward PvPers who actually contribute to the faction by fighting—not farming.

Emperorship should not be based on AP anymore but let AP be for those who want to PVE, repair structures and get ticks (they can still use it to buy basic stuff like items at the weekend gold vender etc.) Instead I introduced to you an idea called Leadership Points (LP) which can only be earned by leading groups, killing players, taking/claiming keeps, defending keeps, taking/recovering scrolls and mostly playing daily for that same faction. This will not only give the PvPers a chance to get the Emperor title and power opposed to organized AP farmers, but it will reward players for staying loyal to their faction.

With Leadership Points players can also buy certain buffs that will make them more survivable in PvP; like the opportunity to buy unique gold food, rare potions and high valued enchantments.

Zos, lend me your thoughts.

Ackwalan · January 2019

ServerusEcru wrote: »

I sent this idea to Zos earlier this month regarding the abused Emperor system. I agree that a reconstruction is definitely needed. We need a system that will reward PvPers who actually contribute to the faction by fighting—not farming.

Emperorship should not be based on AP anymore but let AP be for those who want to PVE, repair structures and get ticks (they can still use it to buy basic stuff like items at the weekend gold vender etc.) Instead I introduced to you an idea called Inspiration points (IP) which can only be earned by leading groups, killing players, taking/claiming keeps, defending keeps, taking/recovering scrolls and mostly playing daily for that same faction. This will not only give the PvPers a chance to get the Emperor title and power opposed to organized AP farmers, but it will reward players for staying loyal to their faction.

With Inspiration Points players can also buy certain buffs that will make them more survivaable in PvP; like the opportunity to buy unique gold food, rare potions and high valued enchantments.

Zos, lend me your thoughts.

Any kind of point system that can be used to buy things, will get farmed or sold for gold.

Sacredx · January 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

ServerusEcru wrote: »

I sent this idea to Zos earlier this month regarding the abused Emperor system. I agree that a reconstruction is definitely needed. We need a system that will reward PvPers who actually contribute to the faction by fighting—not farming.

Emperorship should not be based on AP anymore but let AP be for those who want to PVE, repair structures and get ticks (they can still use it to buy basic stuff like items at the weekend gold vender etc.) Instead I introduced to you an idea called Inspiration points (IP) which can only be earned by leading groups, killing players, taking/claiming keeps, defending keeps, taking/recovering scrolls and mostly playing daily for that same faction. This will not only give the PvPers a chance to get the Emperor title and power opposed to organized AP farmers, but it will reward players for staying loyal to their faction.

With Inspiration Points players can also buy certain buffs that will make them more survivaable in PvP; like the opportunity to buy unique gold food, rare potions and high valued enchantments.

Zos, lend me your thoughts.

Any kind of point system that can be used to buy things, will get farmed or sold for gold.

Make them account bound or bop. Problem solved.

Bam_Bam · January 2019

BRING BACK FACTION LOCK

kaevix · January 2019

imagine role playing in pvp, truly a disgusting thought

twitch_zero · January 2019

Just as an example of how this is abused Dracarys normally play on EP in Vivec NA and have played mainly on EP in the current campaign. Today they were running a full raid on AD in Vivec Na, if EP has long queues then they should go to another campaign.

Beardimus · January 2019

I'm all for a change to stop nefarious / cheating behaviour in PvP. @ZOS_BrianWheeler mentioned they were looking at this early last year. I'm intrigued to see some thoughts.

I do vote for alliance lock at this time. It's not perfect but would help the scroll trolls.

AP Boosting was rife in the event and nothing was done about it. People earning 100ks per hour and swapping back and forth on toons to flip things.

Abuse of emp, in particular on the less pop campaigns. In particular from PvE players just using a big guild to 'get the dye' or tick it off.

Bring meaning back to the alliance war, and emp, for those of us that care.

gepe87 · January 2019

Being emp is respectable only because it means no RL.

IzzyStardust · January 2019

mayasunrising wrote: »

I don't necessarily agree that what the OP describes as Emp exploiting would really be solved by faction locking campaigns, but I do agree that players should be locked to one faction for the duration of a campaign - be it 7 or 30 days. If you want to play a separate faction for whatever reason (most times I hear it's because folk like to take breaks or play with friends) then join another campaign as a guest.

My understanding is this used to be a thing. Can any of the old time players illuminate as to why it was switch to the system we currently have?

I want my 50 transmute/mo.

We have 1x 30 day CP campiagn.

Give more campaigns then - but I am going to earn my transmute.

ZOS is the one who made them such a pain to get and tied 50 per to 30 day campaign, and put it down to one campaign - so I guess 'tough luck' until it's not that way.

IDC about your endless fight over empty buildings.

biminirwb17_ESO · January 2019

I assume one of the issues the OP is talking about is the DC guild that has been rotating around outer keeps with no benefit to their faction.

This started during the "event" but has continued after.

Then there is the small group of DC that live under the Alessia Bridge farming between there, the lumbermill and the entrance to IC, they are there most of the day.

My biggest issue is the small resource groups with a member from another faction who is there to replenish ultimates by taking light attacks and call out other factions forward camps. This person swaps back to his "normal" alt and his buddy logs on replacing his role.

My solution is a timer for faction swaps that increases each time you swap, 1,2,4,8,16 hrs etc per campaign. Lets people swap a few times to play with friends but removes blatant actions.

ZOS_Mika · January 2019

We have removed some unnecessary and off topic comments from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil. Please ensure that this thread doesn't go off the rails. Thank you for your understanding.

NBrookus · January 2019

Vapirko wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

mayasunrising wrote: »

I don't necessarily agree that what the OP describes as Emp exploiting would really be solved by faction locking campaigns, but I do agree that players should be locked to one faction for the duration of a campaign - be it 7 or 30 days. If you want to play a separate faction for whatever reason (most times I hear it's because folk like to take breaks or play with friends) then join another campaign as a guest.

My understanding is this used to be a thing. Can any of the old time players illuminate as to why it was switch to the system we currently have?

We had a lot more active campaigns. Now if someone wants to play no CP, for example, they have just one choice. Meanwhile people have made friends on all factions since 1 Tamriel.

There's another reason to switch factions: queues. If your preferred faction has a long queue you ether wait it out for what may be hours, play in another campaign you don't like as much while waiting, or you and your friends go play the faction with no queue.

There’s really only one campaign where wait time might be significant and that’s Vivec. And usually pops are pretty equal on all sides so I don’t think faction lock would really change that much. These days even Vivec queues are rarely bad outside of events and there’s always guest campaigns.

Last night EP queue was 200
DC was 5

Guess which faction I played?

Rin_Senya · January 2019

twitch_zero wrote: »

Just as an example of how this is abused Dracarys normally play on EP in Vivec NA and have played mainly on EP in the current campaign. Today they were running a full raid on AD in Vivec Na, if EP has long queues then they should go to another campaign.

First of all we weren't playing AD on Sundays because of the queue. Secondly we never run a "full raid" lol, we don't even have 24 ppl in the guild or space on teamspeak for that.

Dreyloch · January 2019

I was going to tell you what's wrong with your faction OP. But I don't wanna get the ban boot from the mods. There's a reason people faction hop. It's not simply alliance points or emp. I have no designs on ever being emp. I just don't have the time to commit to that.

Look into your faction. Look deep. See how many guilds there are running. See how many people they run. See why they can't get new recruits (or even want to run more than 16 ppl). See how the masses argue in zone chat over stupid things, and not being committed to the "Faction War". See why the "Leaders" of your faction have a hard time getting thing's done?

I'm all for a good fight. Even outnumbered. But after 4 plus years on DC, I'm done caring anymore. I'll go where I'm having fun and make some AP along the way. It's not always about the scoreboard, or who's emp...not everyone cares that deeply. Besides all this, even if your faction wins a campaign? What are they really getting? A piece of jewelry they can buy from guild vendors? A sense of pride because one faction has more off hour players than another?

The whole model of PvP in this game is flawed. Some people see it. Some people don't. Some people just gave up caring a long...long time ago, and just wanna go play (most of the best ones left for other games long ago). Trust me, you'll feel much better when you realize, it's just a game, and some day another will come along and this one will fade away.

coj901 · January 2019

I love PvP in this game but really who cares.emp is a joke it just shows that a person can sit in front of a computer all day.

ServerusEcru · January 2019

More in depth on Leadership Points (LP) for Zos to consider.

What is the purpose of LP?

• To allow PvPers an opportunity to earn the Emp title by fighting and leading a group.

• To allow the real PvP guilds a chance to be recognized for their PvP skills and not just AP farming skills.

* To encourage PvPers to commit to one faction.

Why change the system now? Tell me how this idea will actually work and how do you intend for players to achieve these skills?

• The idea is to make the Emperor/Empress title rare and hard to achieve as the original creators invisioned it to be. This is why it’s important to change the system. An Emperor must be someone who their faction respects and appreciates.

• How it will work. A player can only achieve LP by owning a guild. His guild must commit to the same faction for the duration of the campaign. And together the guild will gather LP points for their leader. Whoever gathers the most points will qualify for Emp. But it must be a faction decision voted on by the top five active guild leaders who achieved enough points to vote.

Example:

Iron Legion 1,000 LP
Guardians of Daggerdall 900 LP
Elder Skills 850 LP
Order of the Candle 700 LP
Rats of Tobruk 690 LP

These five guild leaders must vote on which guild leader will become the Emp and they will all get buffs as well as the Emp’s High Council.

How to dethrone an Emp?
Each member of the High Council will choose a keep to claim for their guild and based on how many Leadership Points the guild has such will determine the strength of their keeps defense. This will make it challenging to take a keep. Rival factions must turn all five keeps at the same time including the Emperors stronghold to dethrone Emp.

Zos, your thoughts and I’d like to hear the communities thoughts?

seigneurbacon · January 2019

Here are my thoughts on the subject :

Ackwalan wrote: »

Any kind of point system that can be used to buy things, will get farmed or sold for gold.

This is true, but we can bend the system to make farming productive (behaviour design). The current system rewards PvDooring and General Farming much more that participating meaningfully to the war effort for your faction. What I would see as a good way to fix that issue is to give AP at every evaluation. Something like: if you participated in a siege (even if your faction lost) or a faction battle during the evaluation period, you get an amount of AP proportional to your faction score at the evaluation. So you want to farm AP? make your faction strong. Of course, individual action should still be rewarded, but in a lesser degree.

Regarding faction lock, one thing could be a system similar to the home/guest with campaign. In short, you add the notion of faction to the home campaign, and playing on another faction makes you a "guest". You can still play for fun with your friends but if you are to play seriously, you must commit to your faction.

Alternatively, ZOS could make Vivec a faction locked server and let the other servers would be more casual.

ServerusEcru wrote: »

• How it will work. A player can only achieve LP by owning a guild. His guild must commit to the same faction for the duration of the campaign. And together the guild will gather LP points for their leader. Whoever gathers the most points will qualify for Emp. But it must be a faction decision voted on by the top five active guild leaders who achieved enough points to vote.

While I like the idea and it makes a lot of sense, I don't think it would work. I foresee that people would start their own guilds and run alone to be a "group" leader and have a shot at emperorship rather than coordinating their effort properly for their faction, just as they rather farm AP than fight the war. Also, as long as DC is concerned (haven't played other factions so I can't tell, but I guess it would be the same), there is already much divide between group as on how the war should be led. Adding politics and emperorship elections will only throw oil on the fire.

These are my two cents, feel free to disagree!

IndorilArwynLlethran · January 2019

I remember that moment of frustration when I could not join my EP friends in Auriel's Bow only bcs I already have an AD char on this campaign. No, thank you.

Anrose · January 2019

ServerusEcru wrote: »

More in depth on Leadership Points (LP) for Zos to consider.

What is the purpose of LP?

• To allow PvPers an opportunity to earn the Emp title by fighting and leading a group.

• To allow the real PvP guilds a chance to be recognized for their PvP skills and not just AP farming skills.

* To encourage PvPers to commit to one faction.

Why change the system now? Tell me how this idea will actually work and how do you intend for players to achieve these skills?

• The idea is to make the Emperor/Empress title rare and hard to achieve as the original creators invisioned it to be. This is why it’s important to change the system. An Emperor must be someone who their faction respects and appreciates.

• How it will work. A player can only achieve LP by owning a guild. His guild must commit to the same faction for the duration of the campaign. And together the guild will gather LP points for their leader. Whoever gathers the most points will qualify for Emp. But it must be a faction decision voted on by the top five active guild leaders who achieved enough points to vote.

Example:

Iron Legion 1,000 LP
Guardians of Daggerdall 900 LP
Elder Skills 850 LP
Order of the Candle 700 LP
Rats of Tobruk 690 LP

These five guild leaders must vote on which guild leader will become the Emp and they will all get buffs as well as the Emp’s High Council.

How to dethrone an Emp?
Each member of the High Council will choose a keep to claim for their guild and based on how many Leadership Points the guild has such will determine the strength of their keeps defense. This will make it challenging to take a keep. Rival factions must turn all five keeps at the same time including the Emperors stronghold to dethrone Emp.

Zos, your thoughts and I’d like to hear the communities thoughts?

You know this is a casual game right? Something this try-hard would kill PvP because hardly anyone cares this much.