Xynode Builds

karekiz · May 2019

I wonder how much percentage of players actually compete for leaderboards?

muh · May 2019

Heh... I'm honestly confused.
I tuned into Xynodes stream earlier to get an idea what all of this fuzz is about. Saw 3/4 ish of his Banished Cells run he did before he called it a day.

Is he always so condecensing to people he plays with? Like... I'm not publicly posting clips because that would be shaming random players I suppose, but he called three out of the five people he encountered during this run more or less useless.

My favorite part was when one of the DD went offline after a wipe on the last boss and Xynode said

Xynode wrote:

We're not having a lot of luck here with the PUG. The other dude did 17% of the damage. I actually think most of the damage was from the tank.

Followed by a chuckle. [Edit: I think it's noteworthy that the guy that "rage quit" was only like CP 190.]

Or when two of his groupmates died, one to which he said (on stream) is "not doing much" and to the other one he said (on stream) that he "is doing sh*t all":

Xynode wrote:

I'm not resing them. It's not gonna help

Now it may be true that they've not contributed much to the fight. But is this reason enough to just leave them there? Is this helping them in any way? Don't you deny them opportunities to learn? I can't imagine it felt good for them, they most likely didn't intentionally die. I think it's fair to assume they wanted to contribute to the success of the group as well.

And about resurecting people... Usually it's the job of DD to resurect other people, Xynode at one point also said on stream that the healer should resurrect, because it was a templar healer and they revive faster. While that is true I don't think it's good advice in general. Especially for PUGs.
As far as I understood Xynode knew the tank and knew he could survive without attention from the healer, but that's not always the case.

Xynode, at least in this run, seemed to be more concerned to show off his superiority and used pretty much every opportunity to talk bad about the people he was running with.

Well ... I hope this was an exception or anything. But if not... Seems weird to idolize someone that shows toxic behaviour like that.

therift · May 2019

This thread was started to show appreciation for Xynode.

One comment... just one comment from a player who, through poorly chosen wording, appeared to denigrate Xynode's builds, and this thread devolved into bitter, *** for tat bickering.

The soi-disant End Game Community should be ashamed of the way some of its members have behaved in this thread.

I say ashamed, because to anyone who happens upon this thread with an interest to running end game content will come away with an indelible impression than End Game is Elitist.

It's really terrible.

Many of the proponents of meta come across as sneering and supercilious. I'm sure that is not their intent. I'm sure that normally, they are fine and helpful folks to play with. But that is not how some represented themselves here today.

The arguing against the meta proponents is overbearing and petty. Again, I am sure that is not those posters' intentions, nor is it representative of them as players. A couple of my comments fall in this area, and I regret them.

But the end result is terribly damaging to the reputation of the End Game Community as a whole. It didn't have to be this way. You all are better than that.

I hope that the chest-thumping might be set aside in the interest of creating a positive and welcoming impression on every future end game player who visits the Forums. Really.

Think beyond trying to score points on opposing viewpoints and be the champions of the game your achievements prove you really are.

lassitershawn · May 2019

therift wrote: »

This thread was started to show appreciation for Xynode.

One comment... just one comment from a player who, through poorly chosen wording, appeared to denigrate Xynode's builds, and this thread devolved into bitter, *** for tat bickering.

The soi-disant End Game Community should be ashamed of the way some of its members have behaved in this thread.

I say ashamed, because to anyone who happens upon this thread with an interest to running end game content will come away with an indelible impression than End Game is Elitist.

It's really terrible.

Many of the proponents of meta come across as sneering and supercilious. I'm sure that is not their intent. I'm sure that normally, they are fine and helpful folks to play with. But that is not how some represented themselves here today.

The arguing against the meta proponents is overbearing and petty. Again, I am sure that is not those posters' intentions, nor is it representative of them as players. A couple of my comments fall in this area, and I regret them.

But the end result is terribly damaging to the reputation of the End Game Community as a whole. It didn't have to be this way. You all are better than that.

I hope that the chest-thumping might be set aside in the interest of creating a positive and welcoming impression on every future end game player who visits the Forums. Really.

Think beyond trying to score points on opposing viewpoints and be the champions of the game your achievements prove you really are.

This may be true, but misleading players (surely not intentionally) about the actual state of builds in endgame isn't doing them any favors as they waste valuable time and resources farming and transmuting objectively subpar gear like unfathomable and undaunted infiltrator. They may get frustrated with endgame and "elitists" later on when the builds that they think are good are actually underperforming. That is what other "meta proponents" and myself are suggesting and trying to get across. Not that there is one universally BiS spec for any class, but that some sets and setups are objectively superior in various fights and will make completing group content easier. Making casual builds IS FINE, but passing them off as competitive endgame builds "meta killers" is NOT, in my opinion. This comes from my own experience being a new player and helping other new players try to unlearn the bad things that many new players are exposed to.

Heelie · May 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

I don't get the point of this comment.

It's an example, though not a singluar one. A surprising number of players do not, in fact, adjust their build when they're moving through content.

NupidStoob wrote: »

However if you want to talk about what's BiS there are hard numbers and math out there clearly indicating what is best and what is not.

I point of fact, there really isn't best in slot in ESO. Individual player performance is the determinative factor, not gear. At that point you can say, "oh, hey, I cleared with this setup," and that's valid for that objective, but saying, "this is BiS," is undermined by your own comment that players will adjust their loadout as they progress through content.

So, is Reli "Best in Slot," or is it utter garbage in 80% of endgame content? Because, if Best in Slot was a thing in ESO, and was supported by math, you wouldn't have this, "oh, hey, it's best, except when it's not." Furthermore, the people who have been arguing for crunching the numbers, don't really have the tools need to crunch the numbers in any meaningful sense. They can report what they see on a dummy. They can report what they see in a live situation with a ton of uncontrolled variables and a margin of error that makes the collected data meaningless. But, they can't provide anything useful to the discussion based solely on, "the math," especially given their math is reliably faulty.

therift wrote: »

This thread was started to show appreciation for Xynode.

One comment... just one comment from a player who, through poorly chosen wording, appeared to denigrate Xynode's builds, and this thread devolved into bitter, *** for tat bickering.

The soi-disant End Game Community should be ashamed of the way some of its members have behaved in this thread.

I say ashamed, because to anyone who happens upon this thread with an interest to running end game content will come away with an indelible impression than End Game is Elitist.

It's really terrible.

Many of the proponents of meta come across as sneering and supercilious. I'm sure that is not their intent. I'm sure that normally, they are fine and helpful folks to play with. But that is not how some represented themselves here today.

The arguing against the meta proponents is overbearing and petty. Again, I am sure that is not those posters' intentions, nor is it representative of them as players. A couple of my comments fall in this area, and I regret them.

But the end result is terribly damaging to the reputation of the End Game Community as a whole. It didn't have to be this way. You all are better than that.

I hope that the chest-thumping might be set aside in the interest of creating a positive and welcoming impression on every future end game player who visits the Forums. Really.

Think beyond trying to score points on opposing viewpoints and be the champions of the game your achievements prove you really are.

First off I see that my first comment was very poorly worded as I also mentioned earlier in this thread, sometimes I am the sort of person to think one thing and write another.

I think what escalated this thread are actually proponents of Xynode taking critisism of Xynodes builds personal, or see them as direct attacks. Now this is understandable as there have been feuds before between many of the people before. So in this comment I will try and reach out,

This said Xynode's builds are by no means perfect. And just like how Alcast often have faults, or things not really up to date in his builds, so does Xynode. Xynode's builds and ideas around class roles have some faults when talking eso end game, at least how i see end game, which is the DLC trials, I would even go as far as to say HM DLC trials.

I personally mentioned his idea that IA should'nt be used on healers. In an end game scenario supports will usually take care of utility. IA is a big dps loss on a dd, but not much of a loss on a healer. There are other issues like his spec into pen. Where as in the end game we rely on supports to provide this.

This Thread was started as a question on how well Xynodes builds performed, Like most of the "elitist" on this thread say, Xynodes builds are more than good enough to get you through most content. When doing more non "end game" content specing into pen is a good idea, so this is no issue at all, his builds often are a lot easier to farm, also he suggest a heavy attack rotation, something that is easier to learn. So overall his content is great for a newer / more casual player. Someone who just wants to clear the more mid game tier difficulty fights of the game. It's also great for people who plays more casually like 2-3 hours a week, since it allows you to just log in and be specced for most fights. This target audience is more than 50% of the eso player base, most likely a lot more. While Alcast has more casual oriented builds, Xynode seems to be a lot better at communicating to this audience with very in detail videos.

Xynodes dungeon guides are some of the best out there as well in my opinion. I watched his stream today and saw his addon which is pretty neat. This just goes to show that Xynode is one of the most resourceful creators.

Having said that I think that it's fair for players among the "elitist" top 1% to point out that there are stronger and better builds out there for the player wanting to perform the best possible. While some people suggest that Xynodes builds are within 1% of the top dps, this is straight up false. however I do believe that this thread was not the place to go Discuss this, I think that it would have been a better idea to just say that his builds are great to a point, and just leave it at that. I 100% agree that attacking a creator on an overall positive thread is not the place.

I think you're right that it would be a lot easier if people could find some more common ground when it comes to the arguments around the "meta" and "anti-meta" crowds.

I think one thing we could start of with is some sort of podcast - ish discoussion with people representing both sides actually discoussing some of the gear desitions on both sides, and the goals that each side set. I think the main reason we actually have arguments is because we are not really playing the same game, so we don't think alike. The game completely change when you're in a progression guild.

As someone who has played a healer in the top end game for a very long time, and a person that people among end game look to for guides, builds, and general ideas I would'nt mind going to talk with someone who plays healing differently, maybe even someone playing a stamina healer. If this means we can discuss our differences in choices, goals and general experience. I think we will quikckly find out that we are playing an entirely different games with very different challenges. I think most players will be supprised at the weird specs that healers run when doing top score runs.

To sum up, I think it's a bit too easy to just call anyone who questions your ideas an elitist, at the same time it's very easy to jus dismiss someone's argument on the basis that they're just a casual. An issue in eso "end game" is that not a lot of players play it. Another issue is the competitive nature which have ment that not a lot of builds and general content is made around it. This means that the vast majority of players have no idea what these guilds or players are doing.This make players playing end game seem for foreign. The end game scene, at least on EU, has been nothing but open to me since I started in my first progression guild. Almost every single player know each other, and parses as well as builds are shared across various discords. But this unfortunatly is'nt very public and that might be why people look to us as a foreign crowd. I hope that in future more players among the end game actually take time off to share their experience with the general trial running crowd, and I hope as well that instead of being shouted down as elitist, the general population can at least take their time to read and understand what they're saying, and learn from it.

royo · May 2019

Every time someone says relequen is bad on fights like the Twins in vMol, I cry into a 90k dps pillow

https://imgur.com/a/ZjMGMQ5

starkerealm wrote: »

Even within the range of parses, you can already start to see the issue here. Certain sets like Reli and Siroria will parse very well, because the set mechanics are trivial to maintain in a contained environment. When you try to take those into the wild, some content will allow you to just stand and deliver, without undermining the sets, while other content will completely eviscerate them. IE: The twins in vMoL.

T3hasiangod · May 2019

Kel wrote: »

Asian Gods DK parse....48k
https://youtu.be/7Zrvq9G_IxY

Xynodes Dk parse...52k
https://youtu.be/yB4sPWosrcg

What exactly is meta?

That's a 3m parse he does. I do a 6m parse. Those are two incomparable parses due to that alone.
He nearly runs out of stam on the 3m parse. Meanwhile, my 6m parse is doing just fine with sustain.
He's getting external Fracture and (I'm assuming) Crusher. My parses are always done solo, with no external help. This means my parse has lower average penetration. Adjusting for penetration (Infused Crusher is 2108), then our parses should be similar (an additional 2108 penetration results in between a 6.6 and 4.4 percent damage difference)

starkerealm wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

There are no universally BiS sets for all content, but for specific scenarios there are definitely significant differences between sets that can be proven mathematically and with evidence (CMX). For example, sets like Auroran's Thunder, Undaunted Infiltrator, and Unfathomable Darkness (all advocated for on the website), are all very bad sets for raiding (and most/all content in general)...

I'm going to stop you right there, because you just told me everything I needed to hear. You haven't tested any of this. You saw Undaunted Infiltrator and went, "that's a trash set," and moved on with your day. Or, you trusted in someone's math who also didn't test the set, they looked at the set, examined it as a stam set, and went, "well, this is trash."

starkerealm wrote: »

... you know, unlike the guy you quoted and agreed with, who frequently advocates for BiS (with dubious choices) and says, "I did the math," as the only justifications for his opinions. (Frequently, with fundamental errors in methodology.)

starkerealm wrote: »

... Furthermore, the people who have been arguing for crunching the numbers, don't really have the tools need to crunch the numbers in any meaningful sense. They can report what they see on a dummy. They can report what they see in a live situation with a ton of uncontrolled variables and a margin of error that makes the collected data meaningless. But, they can't provide anything useful to the discussion based solely on, "the math," especially given their math is reliably faulty.

You want the math on why Undaunted Infiltrator is a bad set? Here we go. We're going to compare this to Mother's Sorrow, a classic set that is often recommended by end-game players for magicka DPS. And if you think the math is faulty, then the burden of proof is on you to show exactly where the math doesn't "add up" and show the correct equations and/or formulas (i.e. with evidence).

For the math, we're going to assume a few things. This is to ensure that only the sets are changing.

We're on a magsorc pet build.
We have the same sets for both scenarios. Namely, we have Julianos on body and 2 one-piece spell crit monster pieces (e.g. Zaan and Slimecraw)
Our crit damage bonus from CP is 20 percent and we're assuming we have Warhorn up (i.e. we're assuming Major Force is active)
We are assuming identical rotations. We are assuming a static rotation centered on Blockade, so an 8 second rotation. It's also a Heavy Attack rotation.
We are assuming all standard raid buffs are active. Since we're on a sorc, we're also assuming we have identical class abilities on both bars.
We are using blue rarity bistat food since we're going a Heavy Attack rotation.
We are meeting the 18200 penetration needed for dungeons and trials.
We are using all Bloodthirsty traits for jewelry and all Divines on our armor. We are not using Precise on our front bar.

We now need to look at how much additional damage each set is able to provide.

We're starting with Mother's Sorrow, since this calculation is pretty straightforward. With the build described above, we have a crit chance of 60.2 percent with Major and Minor Prophecy active without Mother's Sorrow. When we add in Mother's Sorrow, we get a crit chance of 76.6 percent while we're on our front bar. Let's assume we're on our front bar for 75 percent of the fight. This would give us an average crit chance of 72.5 (60.2 + (76.6 - 60.2) * 3/4).

For Undaunted Infiltrator, we first need to look at the DPS increase from the 5-piece. The 1161 damage is applied to all 4 ticks of a Lightning Heavy Attack. A Lightning Heavy Attack ticks 4 times over the span of 2 seconds. We're going to assume that you get in 2 Heavy Attacks per rotation, which means you can get in 4 Light Attacks and 8 Heavy Attack ticks over the 8 second rotation at most. This gives us a total increase of 387 DPS to our Light Attack DPS and 1161 DPS increase to our Heavy Attack DPS. We'll leave these aside for later. Note that because this is straight damage rather than a boost to Spell Damage, it is added directly to the damage you do and is not affected by bonuses to Spell Damage.

Since Undaunted Infiltrator has 1 additional Max Magicka bonus, we need to use effective spell damage when we create our ratio for comparison. Our build with Julianos and Mother's Sorrow 35629 Max Magicka and 3350 Spell Damage for an effective spell damage of 6743. Our build with Undaunted Infiltrator has 3350 Spell Damage and 37119 Max Magicka for an effective spell damage of 6885.

Now that we have these variables, we can set up our ratio of ability metrics using the ability metric calculation. Recall that to get percent differences, we use the general formula below:

(final - initial)/initial

This can be simplified via basic algebra to:

final/initial - initial/initial OR final/initial - 1

Remember that we are assuming equal penetration and equal damage done and received modifiers, so we can drop those out of the equation. Here, we use Mother's Sorrow as our final value and Undaunted Infiltrator as our initial value. If our final value is positive, then Mother's Sorrow is stronger. If it is negative, then Undaunted Infiltrator is stronger. This gives us the following:

(6743 * (1 + (0.725 * 1.14)))/(6885 * (1 + (0.602 * 1.14))) - 1 = 0.0608

This means that Mother's Sorrow provides 6.08 percent more damage than Undaunted Infiltrator. If we drop Major Force to get a more conservative estimate, then we get the following:

(6743 * (1 + (0.725 * 0.99)))/(6885 * (1 + (0.602 * 0.99))) - 1 = 0.0541

This means that Mother's Sorrow provides 5.41 percent more damage than Undaunted Infiltrator.

But wait! What about the 5-piece from Undaunted Infiltrator? How do we add that in? Pretty simple. In order for Undaunted Infiltrator to beat out Mother's Sorrow, the additional DPS from the 5-piece needs to be greater than the additional damage Mother's Sorrow provides. In other words, the combined 1548 additional DPS from the 5-piece needs to be greater than 6.08 or 5.41 percent of our DPS. In equation form, we get the following:

1548/x = 0.0541 and 1548/x = 0.0608

The x in this case represents the breakeven point. If our DPS is greater than x, then Mother's Sorrow is stronger. If it is lower than x, then Undaunted Infiltrator is stronger. Solving for x, we get a breakeven point of about 28.6k DPS in our conservative crit modifier and 25.4k in our generous crit modifier. This means that if you can do more than 28.6k DPS using Undaunted Infiltrator, then Mother's Sorrow is definitely going to be a stronger choice.

Now this is entirely ignoring the fact that Mother's Sorrow can be purchased from guild traders (plus there is a unique infused lightning staff as a quest reward) while Undaunted Infiltrator needs to be both farmed and transmuted. Given the previous sentence, along with the mathematics above, it is clear why Mother's Sorrow is the clear winner here.

NupidStoob · May 2019

therift wrote: »

This thread was started to show appreciation for Xynode.

One comment... just one comment from a player who, through poorly chosen wording, appeared to denigrate Xynode's builds, and this thread devolved into bitter, *** for tat bickering.

The soi-disant End Game Community should be ashamed of the way some of its members have behaved in this thread.

I say ashamed, because to anyone who happens upon this thread with an interest to running end game content will come away with an indelible impression than End Game is Elitist.

It's really terrible.

Many of the proponents of meta come across as sneering and supercilious. I'm sure that is not their intent. I'm sure that normally, they are fine and helpful folks to play with. But that is not how some represented themselves here today.

The arguing against the meta proponents is overbearing and petty. Again, I am sure that is not those posters' intentions, nor is it representative of them as players. A couple of my comments fall in this area, and I regret them.

But the end result is terribly damaging to the reputation of the End Game Community as a whole. It didn't have to be this way. You all are better than that.

I hope that the chest-thumping might be set aside in the interest of creating a positive and welcoming impression on every future end game player who visits the Forums. Really.

Think beyond trying to score points on opposing viewpoints and be the champions of the game your achievements prove you really are.

Sorry, but there is nothing toxic about pointing out that other sets are simply better. Please read back this thread, there are enough Xynode fanboys getting offended on his behalf and are throwing terms like "elitist" around. I don't see any endgame player running around calling the beginners noobs or other toxic terms. At most I see "casuals".

As someone who spends a lot of time helping newer players ingame or on reddit it's incredibly frustrating to deal with builds that advertise themselves as endgame builds that aren't really up to standard and require farming of subpar sets. I've taken issues with some of Alcasts build about this in the past as well and I take issue with Xynode's. It's already difficult to consistently find up to date information in this game for newer players and all that misinformation spreading around doesn't help at all.

The endgame community in this game is incredibly helpful. I haven't met anyone yet who wasn't willing to give at least some pointers when asked nicely. At this point I had people from pretty much all endgame guilds answer questions of mine no matter how silly the questions seemed. Some totally went out of their way to get me screenshots of builds and parses and explain tactics for fights. It works really well when not running around calling them elitists and accepting their advice rather than getting all combative about it.

As I said before there is a reason meta develops and it's done on testing efforts of 100s of people. I am not saying to take everything that is said as gospel, but maybe people should stop and realize that there is a reason this meta has developed in this way. It's never created by an individual.

In this game people love to run around calling endgame players toxic elitists and it seems okay for most people. There are of course some bad examples in the endgame community, but that is within expectations.

I've watched the Xynode stream last night and he seemed way more toxic than the average endgame player. Constantly trash talking the pugs he played with including low CPs. Usually that quickly gets you the boot in endgame guilds no matter how good you are individually. That people run around worshiping him while calling other endgame players toxic elitists is beyond me.

Kel · May 2019

NupidStoob wrote: »

therift wrote: »

This thread was started to show appreciation for Xynode.

One comment... just one comment from a player who, through poorly chosen wording, appeared to denigrate Xynode's builds, and this thread devolved into bitter, *** for tat bickering.

The soi-disant End Game Community should be ashamed of the way some of its members have behaved in this thread.

I say ashamed, because to anyone who happens upon this thread with an interest to running end game content will come away with an indelible impression than End Game is Elitist.

It's really terrible.

Many of the proponents of meta come across as sneering and supercilious. I'm sure that is not their intent. I'm sure that normally, they are fine and helpful folks to play with. But that is not how some represented themselves here today.

The arguing against the meta proponents is overbearing and petty. Again, I am sure that is not those posters' intentions, nor is it representative of them as players. A couple of my comments fall in this area, and I regret them.

But the end result is terribly damaging to the reputation of the End Game Community as a whole. It didn't have to be this way. You all are better than that.

I hope that the chest-thumping might be set aside in the interest of creating a positive and welcoming impression on every future end game player who visits the Forums. Really.

Think beyond trying to score points on opposing viewpoints and be the champions of the game your achievements prove you really are.

Sorry, but there is nothing toxic about pointing out that other sets are simply better. Please read back this thread, there are enough Xynode fanboys getting offended on his behalf and are throwing terms like "elitist" around. I don't see any endgame player running around calling the beginners noobs or other toxic terms. At most I see "casuals".

As someone who spends a lot of time helping newer players ingame or on reddit it's incredibly frustrating to deal with builds that advertise themselves as endgame builds that aren't really up to standard and require farming of subpar sets. I've taken issues with some of Alcasts build about this in the past as well and I take issue with Xynode's. It's already difficult to consistently find up to date information in this game for newer players and all that misinformation spreading around doesn't help at all.

The endgame community in this game is incredibly helpful. I haven't met anyone yet who wasn't willing to give at least some pointers when asked nicely. At this point I had people from pretty much all endgame guilds answer questions of mine no matter how silly the questions seemed. Some totally went out of their way to get me screenshots of builds and parses and explain tactics for fights. It works really well when not running around calling them elitists and accepting their advice rather than getting all combative about it.

As I said before there is a reason meta develops and it's done on testing efforts of 100s of people. I am not saying to take everything that is said as gospel, but maybe people should stop and realize that there is a reason this meta has developed in this way. It's never created by an individual.

In this game people love to run around calling endgame players toxic elitists and it seems okay for most people. There are of course some bad examples in the endgame community, but that is within expectations.

I've watched the Xynode stream last night and he seemed way more toxic than the average endgame player. Constantly trash talking the pugs he played with including low CPs. Usually that quickly gets you the boot in endgame guilds no matter how good you are individually. That people run around worshiping him while calling other endgame players toxic elitists is beyond me.

No, this thread started as an appreciation thread for a content creator, until another one decided to turn it into some meta vs. casual thread, completely derailing it.

You dont have to like Xynode.. in which case what you could have said was....nothing. You could have rolled your eyes, chuckled quietly to yourself, or whatever haters do, and let people who wanted to thank the man for what he contributed to the community do so.

Like I've said, I've had my own issues with the man. This has nothing to do with sets or meta vs. casual...it has to do with jerks coming in to derail a thread with bull**** that has nothing to do with the original point.

THAT'S what makes it toxic.
You dont have to like the man, but what's happening here is classless shaming.

Its shining a light on how petty this community is, and I'm ashamed I got dragged into it.
All you fools should too, but doubtful.

It's not about agenda, it's about respect. And we've shown in this thread this community is extreamly lacking...

pod88kk · May 2019

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Asian Gods DK parse....48k
https://youtu.be/7Zrvq9G_IxY

Xynodes Dk parse...52k
https://youtu.be/yB4sPWosrcg

What exactly is meta?

That's a 3m parse he does. I do a 6m parse. Those are two incomparable parses due to that alone.

He nearly runs out of stam on the 3m parse. Meanwhile, my 6m parse is doing just fine with sustain.

He's getting external Fracture and (I'm assuming) Crusher. My parses are always done solo, with no external help. This means my parse has lower average penetration. Adjusting for penetration (Infused Crusher is 2108), then our parses should be similar (an additional 2108 penetration results in between a 6.6 and 4.4 percent damage difference)

starkerealm wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

There are no universally BiS sets for all content, but for specific scenarios there are definitely significant differences between sets that can be proven mathematically and with evidence (CMX). For example, sets like Auroran's Thunder, Undaunted Infiltrator, and Unfathomable Darkness (all advocated for on the website), are all very bad sets for raiding (and most/all content in general)...

I'm going to stop you right there, because you just told me everything I needed to hear. You haven't tested any of this. You saw Undaunted Infiltrator and went, "that's a trash set," and moved on with your day. Or, you trusted in someone's math who also didn't test the set, they looked at the set, examined it as a stam set, and went, "well, this is trash."

starkerealm wrote: »

... you know, unlike the guy you quoted and agreed with, who frequently advocates for BiS (with dubious choices) and says, "I did the math," as the only justifications for his opinions. (Frequently, with fundamental errors in methodology.)

starkerealm wrote: »

... Furthermore, the people who have been arguing for crunching the numbers, don't really have the tools need to crunch the numbers in any meaningful sense. They can report what they see on a dummy. They can report what they see in a live situation with a ton of uncontrolled variables and a margin of error that makes the collected data meaningless. But, they can't provide anything useful to the discussion based solely on, "the math," especially given their math is reliably faulty.

You want the math on why Undaunted Infiltrator is a bad set? Here we go. We're going to compare this to Mother's Sorrow, a classic set that is often recommended by end-game players for magicka DPS. And if you think the math is faulty, then the burden of proof is on you to show exactly where the math doesn't "add up" and show the correct equations and/or formulas (i.e. with evidence).

For the math, we're going to assume a few things. This is to ensure that only the sets are changing.
We're on a magsorc pet build.

We have the same sets for both scenarios. Namely, we have Julianos on body and 2 one-piece spell crit monster pieces (e.g. Zaan and Slimecraw)

Our crit damage bonus from CP is 20 percent and we're assuming we have Warhorn up (i.e. we're assuming Major Force is active)

We are assuming identical rotations. We are assuming a static rotation centered on Blockade, so an 8 second rotation. It's also a Heavy Attack rotation.

We are assuming all standard raid buffs are active. Since we're on a sorc, we're also assuming we have identical class abilities on both bars.

We are using blue rarity bistat food since we're going a Heavy Attack rotation.

We are meeting the 18200 penetration needed for dungeons and trials.

We are using all Bloodthirsty traits for jewelry and all Divines on our armor. We are not using Precise on our front bar.

We now need to look at how much additional damage each set is able to provide.

We're starting with Mother's Sorrow, since this calculation is pretty straightforward. With the build described above, we have a crit chance of 60.2 percent with Major and Minor Prophecy active without Mother's Sorrow. When we add in Mother's Sorrow, we get a crit chance of 76.6 percent while we're on our front bar. Let's assume we're on our front bar for 75 percent of the fight. This would give us an average crit chance of 72.5 (60.2 + (76.6 - 60.2) * 3/4).

For Undaunted Infiltrator, we first need to look at the DPS increase from the 5-piece. The 1161 damage is applied to all 4 ticks of a Lightning Heavy Attack. A Lightning Heavy Attack ticks 4 times over the span of 2 seconds. We're going to assume that you get in 2 Heavy Attacks per rotation, which means you can get in 4 Light Attacks and 8 Heavy Attack ticks over the 8 second rotation at most. This gives us a total increase of 387 DPS to our Light Attack DPS and 1161 DPS increase to our Heavy Attack DPS. We'll leave these aside for later. Note that because this is straight damage rather than a boost to Spell Damage, it is added directly to the damage you do and is not affected by bonuses to Spell Damage.

Since Undaunted Infiltrator has 1 additional Max Magicka bonus, we need to use effective spell damage when we create our ratio for comparison. Our build with Julianos and Mother's Sorrow 35629 Max Magicka and 3350 Spell Damage for an effective spell damage of 6743. Our build with Undaunted Infiltrator has 3350 Spell Damage and 37119 Max Magicka for an effective spell damage of 6885.

Now that we have these variables, we can set up our ratio of ability metrics using the ability metric calculation. Recall that to get percent differences, we use the general formula below:

(final - initial)/initial

This can be simplified via basic algebra to:

final/initial - initial/initial OR final/initial - 1

Remember that we are assuming equal penetration and equal damage done and received modifiers, so we can drop those out of the equation. Here, we use Mother's Sorrow as our final value and Undaunted Infiltrator as our initial value. If our final value is positive, then Mother's Sorrow is stronger. If it is negative, then Undaunted Infiltrator is stronger. This gives us the following:

(6743 * (1 + (0.725 * 1.14)))/(6885 * (1 + (0.602 * 1.14))) - 1 = 0.0608

This means that Mother's Sorrow provides 6.08 percent more damage than Undaunted Infiltrator. If we drop Major Force to get a more conservative estimate, then we get the following:

(6743 * (1 + (0.725 * 0.99)))/(6885 * (1 + (0.602 * 0.99))) - 1 = 0.0541

This means that Mother's Sorrow provides 5.41 percent more damage than Undaunted Infiltrator.

But wait! What about the 5-piece from Undaunted Infiltrator? How do we add that in? Pretty simple. In order for Undaunted Infiltrator to beat out Mother's Sorrow, the additional DPS from the 5-piece needs to be greater than the additional damage Mother's Sorrow provides. In other words, the combined 1548 additional DPS from the 5-piece needs to be greater than 6.08 or 5.41 percent of our DPS. In equation form, we get the following:

1548/x = 0.0541 and 1548/x = 0.0608

The x in this case represents the breakeven point. If our DPS is greater than x, then Mother's Sorrow is stronger. If it is lower than x, then Undaunted Infiltrator is stronger. Solving for x, we get a breakeven point of about 28.6k DPS in our conservative crit modifier and 25.4k in our generous crit modifier. This means that if you can do more than 28.6k DPS using Undaunted Infiltrator, then Mother's Sorrow is definitely going to be a stronger choice.

Now this is entirely ignoring the fact that Mother's Sorrow can be purchased from guild traders (plus there is a unique infused lightning staff as a quest reward) while Undaunted Infiltrator needs to be both farmed and transmuted. Given the previous sentence, along with the mathematics above, it is clear why Mother's Sorrow is the clear winner here.

*mic drop*

And @Browart, we're all still waiting for those parses mate

Qbiken · May 2019

Kel wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

therift wrote: »

This thread was started to show appreciation for Xynode.

One comment... just one comment from a player who, through poorly chosen wording, appeared to denigrate Xynode's builds, and this thread devolved into bitter, *** for tat bickering.

The soi-disant End Game Community should be ashamed of the way some of its members have behaved in this thread.

I say ashamed, because to anyone who happens upon this thread with an interest to running end game content will come away with an indelible impression than End Game is Elitist.

It's really terrible.

Many of the proponents of meta come across as sneering and supercilious. I'm sure that is not their intent. I'm sure that normally, they are fine and helpful folks to play with. But that is not how some represented themselves here today.

The arguing against the meta proponents is overbearing and petty. Again, I am sure that is not those posters' intentions, nor is it representative of them as players. A couple of my comments fall in this area, and I regret them.

But the end result is terribly damaging to the reputation of the End Game Community as a whole. It didn't have to be this way. You all are better than that.

I hope that the chest-thumping might be set aside in the interest of creating a positive and welcoming impression on every future end game player who visits the Forums. Really.

Think beyond trying to score points on opposing viewpoints and be the champions of the game your achievements prove you really are.

Sorry, but there is nothing toxic about pointing out that other sets are simply better. Please read back this thread, there are enough Xynode fanboys getting offended on his behalf and are throwing terms like "elitist" around. I don't see any endgame player running around calling the beginners noobs or other toxic terms. At most I see "casuals".

As someone who spends a lot of time helping newer players ingame or on reddit it's incredibly frustrating to deal with builds that advertise themselves as endgame builds that aren't really up to standard and require farming of subpar sets. I've taken issues with some of Alcasts build about this in the past as well and I take issue with Xynode's. It's already difficult to consistently find up to date information in this game for newer players and all that misinformation spreading around doesn't help at all.

The endgame community in this game is incredibly helpful. I haven't met anyone yet who wasn't willing to give at least some pointers when asked nicely. At this point I had people from pretty much all endgame guilds answer questions of mine no matter how silly the questions seemed. Some totally went out of their way to get me screenshots of builds and parses and explain tactics for fights. It works really well when not running around calling them elitists and accepting their advice rather than getting all combative about it.

As I said before there is a reason meta develops and it's done on testing efforts of 100s of people. I am not saying to take everything that is said as gospel, but maybe people should stop and realize that there is a reason this meta has developed in this way. It's never created by an individual.

In this game people love to run around calling endgame players toxic elitists and it seems okay for most people. There are of course some bad examples in the endgame community, but that is within expectations.

I've watched the Xynode stream last night and he seemed way more toxic than the average endgame player. Constantly trash talking the pugs he played with including low CPs. Usually that quickly gets you the boot in endgame guilds no matter how good you are individually. That people run around worshiping him while calling other endgame players toxic elitists is beyond me.

No, this thread started as an appreciation thread for a content creator, until another one decided to turn it into some meta vs. casual thread, completely derailing it.

You dont have to like Xynode.. in which case what you could have said was....nothing. You could have rolled your eyes, chuckled quietly to yourself, or whatever haters do, and let people who wanted to thank the man for what he contributed to the community do so.

Like I've said, I've had my own issues with the man. This has nothing to do with sets or meta vs. casual...it has to do with jerks coming in to derail a thread with bull**** that has nothing to do with the original point.

THAT'S what makes it toxic.
You dont have to like the man, but what's happening here is classless shaming.

Its shining a light on how petty this community is, and I'm ashamed I got dragged into it.
All you fools should too, but doubtful.

It's not about agenda, it's about respect. And we've shown in this thread this community is extreamly lacking...

I'm still trying to understand what part of Heelie‘s initial comment could be seen as "toxic".......

Kel · May 2019

Qbiken wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

therift wrote: »

This thread was started to show appreciation for Xynode.

One comment... just one comment from a player who, through poorly chosen wording, appeared to denigrate Xynode's builds, and this thread devolved into bitter, *** for tat bickering.

The soi-disant End Game Community should be ashamed of the way some of its members have behaved in this thread.

I say ashamed, because to anyone who happens upon this thread with an interest to running end game content will come away with an indelible impression than End Game is Elitist.

It's really terrible.

Many of the proponents of meta come across as sneering and supercilious. I'm sure that is not their intent. I'm sure that normally, they are fine and helpful folks to play with. But that is not how some represented themselves here today.

The arguing against the meta proponents is overbearing and petty. Again, I am sure that is not those posters' intentions, nor is it representative of them as players. A couple of my comments fall in this area, and I regret them.

But the end result is terribly damaging to the reputation of the End Game Community as a whole. It didn't have to be this way. You all are better than that.

I hope that the chest-thumping might be set aside in the interest of creating a positive and welcoming impression on every future end game player who visits the Forums. Really.

Think beyond trying to score points on opposing viewpoints and be the champions of the game your achievements prove you really are.

Sorry, but there is nothing toxic about pointing out that other sets are simply better. Please read back this thread, there are enough Xynode fanboys getting offended on his behalf and are throwing terms like "elitist" around. I don't see any endgame player running around calling the beginners noobs or other toxic terms. At most I see "casuals".

As someone who spends a lot of time helping newer players ingame or on reddit it's incredibly frustrating to deal with builds that advertise themselves as endgame builds that aren't really up to standard and require farming of subpar sets. I've taken issues with some of Alcasts build about this in the past as well and I take issue with Xynode's. It's already difficult to consistently find up to date information in this game for newer players and all that misinformation spreading around doesn't help at all.

The endgame community in this game is incredibly helpful. I haven't met anyone yet who wasn't willing to give at least some pointers when asked nicely. At this point I had people from pretty much all endgame guilds answer questions of mine no matter how silly the questions seemed. Some totally went out of their way to get me screenshots of builds and parses and explain tactics for fights. It works really well when not running around calling them elitists and accepting their advice rather than getting all combative about it.

As I said before there is a reason meta develops and it's done on testing efforts of 100s of people. I am not saying to take everything that is said as gospel, but maybe people should stop and realize that there is a reason this meta has developed in this way. It's never created by an individual.

In this game people love to run around calling endgame players toxic elitists and it seems okay for most people. There are of course some bad examples in the endgame community, but that is within expectations.

I've watched the Xynode stream last night and he seemed way more toxic than the average endgame player. Constantly trash talking the pugs he played with including low CPs. Usually that quickly gets you the boot in endgame guilds no matter how good you are individually. That people run around worshiping him while calling other endgame players toxic elitists is beyond me.

No, this thread started as an appreciation thread for a content creator, until another one decided to turn it into some meta vs. casual thread, completely derailing it.

You dont have to like Xynode.. in which case what you could have said was....nothing. You could have rolled your eyes, chuckled quietly to yourself, or whatever haters do, and let people who wanted to thank the man for what he contributed to the community do so.

Like I've said, I've had my own issues with the man. This has nothing to do with sets or meta vs. casual...it has to do with jerks coming in to derail a thread with bull**** that has nothing to do with the original point.

THAT'S what makes it toxic.
You dont have to like the man, but what's happening here is classless shaming.

Its shining a light on how petty this community is, and I'm ashamed I got dragged into it.
All you fools should too, but doubtful.

It's not about agenda, it's about respect. And we've shown in this thread this community is extreamly lacking...

I'm still trying to understand what part of Heelie‘s initial comment could be seen as "toxic".......

Who's Heelie?

I'm still trying to understand why people feel the need to *** on others in the first place.

Mrslizardface · May 2019

Qbiken wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

therift wrote: »

This thread was started to show appreciation for Xynode.

One comment... just one comment from a player who, through poorly chosen wording, appeared to denigrate Xynode's builds, and this thread devolved into bitter, *** for tat bickering.

The soi-disant End Game Community should be ashamed of the way some of its members have behaved in this thread.

I say ashamed, because to anyone who happens upon this thread with an interest to running end game content will come away with an indelible impression than End Game is Elitist.

It's really terrible.

Many of the proponents of meta come across as sneering and supercilious. I'm sure that is not their intent. I'm sure that normally, they are fine and helpful folks to play with. But that is not how some represented themselves here today.

The arguing against the meta proponents is overbearing and petty. Again, I am sure that is not those posters' intentions, nor is it representative of them as players. A couple of my comments fall in this area, and I regret them.

But the end result is terribly damaging to the reputation of the End Game Community as a whole. It didn't have to be this way. You all are better than that.

I hope that the chest-thumping might be set aside in the interest of creating a positive and welcoming impression on every future end game player who visits the Forums. Really.

Think beyond trying to score points on opposing viewpoints and be the champions of the game your achievements prove you really are.

Sorry, but there is nothing toxic about pointing out that other sets are simply better. Please read back this thread, there are enough Xynode fanboys getting offended on his behalf and are throwing terms like "elitist" around. I don't see any endgame player running around calling the beginners noobs or other toxic terms. At most I see "casuals".

As someone who spends a lot of time helping newer players ingame or on reddit it's incredibly frustrating to deal with builds that advertise themselves as endgame builds that aren't really up to standard and require farming of subpar sets. I've taken issues with some of Alcasts build about this in the past as well and I take issue with Xynode's. It's already difficult to consistently find up to date information in this game for newer players and all that misinformation spreading around doesn't help at all.

The endgame community in this game is incredibly helpful. I haven't met anyone yet who wasn't willing to give at least some pointers when asked nicely. At this point I had people from pretty much all endgame guilds answer questions of mine no matter how silly the questions seemed. Some totally went out of their way to get me screenshots of builds and parses and explain tactics for fights. It works really well when not running around calling them elitists and accepting their advice rather than getting all combative about it.

As I said before there is a reason meta develops and it's done on testing efforts of 100s of people. I am not saying to take everything that is said as gospel, but maybe people should stop and realize that there is a reason this meta has developed in this way. It's never created by an individual.

In this game people love to run around calling endgame players toxic elitists and it seems okay for most people. There are of course some bad examples in the endgame community, but that is within expectations.

I've watched the Xynode stream last night and he seemed way more toxic than the average endgame player. Constantly trash talking the pugs he played with including low CPs. Usually that quickly gets you the boot in endgame guilds no matter how good you are individually. That people run around worshiping him while calling other endgame players toxic elitists is beyond me.

No, this thread started as an appreciation thread for a content creator, until another one decided to turn it into some meta vs. casual thread, completely derailing it.

You dont have to like Xynode.. in which case what you could have said was....nothing. You could have rolled your eyes, chuckled quietly to yourself, or whatever haters do, and let people who wanted to thank the man for what he contributed to the community do so.

Like I've said, I've had my own issues with the man. This has nothing to do with sets or meta vs. casual...it has to do with jerks coming in to derail a thread with bull**** that has nothing to do with the original point.

THAT'S what makes it toxic.
You dont have to like the man, but what's happening here is classless shaming.

Its shining a light on how petty this community is, and I'm ashamed I got dragged into it.
All you fools should too, but doubtful.

It's not about agenda, it's about respect. And we've shown in this thread this community is extreamly lacking...

I'm still trying to understand what part of Heelie‘s initial comment could be seen as "toxic".......

Same here

Zacuel · May 2019

*clicks thread*

Xynode huh?

Nope. Just a bunch of dudes swinging their e-pens around.

*Slowly backs away.*

Kel · May 2019

Mrslizardface wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

therift wrote: »

This thread was started to show appreciation for Xynode.

One comment... just one comment from a player who, through poorly chosen wording, appeared to denigrate Xynode's builds, and this thread devolved into bitter, *** for tat bickering.

The soi-disant End Game Community should be ashamed of the way some of its members have behaved in this thread.

I say ashamed, because to anyone who happens upon this thread with an interest to running end game content will come away with an indelible impression than End Game is Elitist.

It's really terrible.

Many of the proponents of meta come across as sneering and supercilious. I'm sure that is not their intent. I'm sure that normally, they are fine and helpful folks to play with. But that is not how some represented themselves here today.

The arguing against the meta proponents is overbearing and petty. Again, I am sure that is not those posters' intentions, nor is it representative of them as players. A couple of my comments fall in this area, and I regret them.

But the end result is terribly damaging to the reputation of the End Game Community as a whole. It didn't have to be this way. You all are better than that.

I hope that the chest-thumping might be set aside in the interest of creating a positive and welcoming impression on every future end game player who visits the Forums. Really.

Think beyond trying to score points on opposing viewpoints and be the champions of the game your achievements prove you really are.

Sorry, but there is nothing toxic about pointing out that other sets are simply better. Please read back this thread, there are enough Xynode fanboys getting offended on his behalf and are throwing terms like "elitist" around. I don't see any endgame player running around calling the beginners noobs or other toxic terms. At most I see "casuals".

As someone who spends a lot of time helping newer players ingame or on reddit it's incredibly frustrating to deal with builds that advertise themselves as endgame builds that aren't really up to standard and require farming of subpar sets. I've taken issues with some of Alcasts build about this in the past as well and I take issue with Xynode's. It's already difficult to consistently find up to date information in this game for newer players and all that misinformation spreading around doesn't help at all.

The endgame community in this game is incredibly helpful. I haven't met anyone yet who wasn't willing to give at least some pointers when asked nicely. At this point I had people from pretty much all endgame guilds answer questions of mine no matter how silly the questions seemed. Some totally went out of their way to get me screenshots of builds and parses and explain tactics for fights. It works really well when not running around calling them elitists and accepting their advice rather than getting all combative about it.

As I said before there is a reason meta develops and it's done on testing efforts of 100s of people. I am not saying to take everything that is said as gospel, but maybe people should stop and realize that there is a reason this meta has developed in this way. It's never created by an individual.

In this game people love to run around calling endgame players toxic elitists and it seems okay for most people. There are of course some bad examples in the endgame community, but that is within expectations.

I've watched the Xynode stream last night and he seemed way more toxic than the average endgame player. Constantly trash talking the pugs he played with including low CPs. Usually that quickly gets you the boot in endgame guilds no matter how good you are individually. That people run around worshiping him while calling other endgame players toxic elitists is beyond me.

No, this thread started as an appreciation thread for a content creator, until another one decided to turn it into some meta vs. casual thread, completely derailing it.

You dont have to like Xynode.. in which case what you could have said was....nothing. You could have rolled your eyes, chuckled quietly to yourself, or whatever haters do, and let people who wanted to thank the man for what he contributed to the community do so.

Like I've said, I've had my own issues with the man. This has nothing to do with sets or meta vs. casual...it has to do with jerks coming in to derail a thread with bull**** that has nothing to do with the original point.

THAT'S what makes it toxic.
You dont have to like the man, but what's happening here is classless shaming.

Its shining a light on how petty this community is, and I'm ashamed I got dragged into it.
All you fools should too, but doubtful.

It's not about agenda, it's about respect. And we've shown in this thread this community is extreamly lacking...

I'm still trying to understand what part of Heelie‘s initial comment could be seen as "toxic".......

Same here

Are you guys part of Asians discord or something? Why is it I'm only seeing 5 or 6 names strongly opposed to letting people show appreciation in this thread? Seems...odd.

Heres the thing. If the situation was reversed and Xynode can into a thread about people showing appreciation to Asian, I'd still feel the same way.

This is why we cant have nice things.
Try to be nice, someone gets thier rocks off on trying to ruin it.

Like I said, if you disagree, what harm is there in letting people say something nice? You could've just ignored this thread instead of derailing it into some meta humping/chest thumping post.

But, that would take a level of maturity out of reach for some, I guess...myself included.

This post was never about meta, until you loud people had to flip the conversation.

NupidStoob · May 2019

Kel wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

therift wrote: »

This thread was started to show appreciation for Xynode.

One comment... just one comment from a player who, through poorly chosen wording, appeared to denigrate Xynode's builds, and this thread devolved into bitter, *** for tat bickering.

The soi-disant End Game Community should be ashamed of the way some of its members have behaved in this thread.

I say ashamed, because to anyone who happens upon this thread with an interest to running end game content will come away with an indelible impression than End Game is Elitist.

It's really terrible.

Many of the proponents of meta come across as sneering and supercilious. I'm sure that is not their intent. I'm sure that normally, they are fine and helpful folks to play with. But that is not how some represented themselves here today.

The arguing against the meta proponents is overbearing and petty. Again, I am sure that is not those posters' intentions, nor is it representative of them as players. A couple of my comments fall in this area, and I regret them.

But the end result is terribly damaging to the reputation of the End Game Community as a whole. It didn't have to be this way. You all are better than that.

I hope that the chest-thumping might be set aside in the interest of creating a positive and welcoming impression on every future end game player who visits the Forums. Really.

Think beyond trying to score points on opposing viewpoints and be the champions of the game your achievements prove you really are.

Sorry, but there is nothing toxic about pointing out that other sets are simply better. Please read back this thread, there are enough Xynode fanboys getting offended on his behalf and are throwing terms like "elitist" around. I don't see any endgame player running around calling the beginners noobs or other toxic terms. At most I see "casuals".

As someone who spends a lot of time helping newer players ingame or on reddit it's incredibly frustrating to deal with builds that advertise themselves as endgame builds that aren't really up to standard and require farming of subpar sets. I've taken issues with some of Alcasts build about this in the past as well and I take issue with Xynode's. It's already difficult to consistently find up to date information in this game for newer players and all that misinformation spreading around doesn't help at all.

The endgame community in this game is incredibly helpful. I haven't met anyone yet who wasn't willing to give at least some pointers when asked nicely. At this point I had people from pretty much all endgame guilds answer questions of mine no matter how silly the questions seemed. Some totally went out of their way to get me screenshots of builds and parses and explain tactics for fights. It works really well when not running around calling them elitists and accepting their advice rather than getting all combative about it.

As I said before there is a reason meta develops and it's done on testing efforts of 100s of people. I am not saying to take everything that is said as gospel, but maybe people should stop and realize that there is a reason this meta has developed in this way. It's never created by an individual.

In this game people love to run around calling endgame players toxic elitists and it seems okay for most people. There are of course some bad examples in the endgame community, but that is within expectations.

I've watched the Xynode stream last night and he seemed way more toxic than the average endgame player. Constantly trash talking the pugs he played with including low CPs. Usually that quickly gets you the boot in endgame guilds no matter how good you are individually. That people run around worshiping him while calling other endgame players toxic elitists is beyond me.

No, this thread started as an appreciation thread for a content creator, until another one decided to turn it into some meta vs. casual thread, completely derailing it.

You dont have to like Xynode.. in which case what you could have said was....nothing. You could have rolled your eyes, chuckled quietly to yourself, or whatever haters do, and let people who wanted to thank the man for what he contributed to the community do so.

Like I've said, I've had my own issues with the man. This has nothing to do with sets or meta vs. casual...it has to do with jerks coming in to derail a thread with bull**** that has nothing to do with the original point.

THAT'S what makes it toxic.
You dont have to like the man, but what's happening here is classless shaming.

Its shining a light on how petty this community is, and I'm ashamed I got dragged into it.
All you fools should too, but doubtful.

It's not about agenda, it's about respect. And we've shown in this thread this community is extreamly lacking...

I'm still trying to understand what part of Heelie‘s initial comment could be seen as "toxic".......

Who's Heelie?

I'm still trying to understand why people feel the need to *** on others in the first place.

I struggle to see where this is an "appreciation thread". OP asked about opinion on Xynodes builds and that's what people provided.

"These builds aren't as good as they claim to be" =/= "*** on others"

Paraphrasing here obviously, but refuting claims isn't toxic.

If you want an echo chamber make a discord and not use a public forum. Otherwise you will always find people that disagree with something.

Daedric_NB_187 · May 2019

@ZOS_RogerJ @ZOS_RobertM @ZOS_GinaBruno just go ahead and lock the thread. It's done nothing but degrade into a pissing match.

Kel · May 2019

NupidStoob wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

therift wrote: »

This thread was started to show appreciation for Xynode.

One comment... just one comment from a player who, through poorly chosen wording, appeared to denigrate Xynode's builds, and this thread devolved into bitter, *** for tat bickering.

The soi-disant End Game Community should be ashamed of the way some of its members have behaved in this thread.

I say ashamed, because to anyone who happens upon this thread with an interest to running end game content will come away with an indelible impression than End Game is Elitist.

It's really terrible.

Many of the proponents of meta come across as sneering and supercilious. I'm sure that is not their intent. I'm sure that normally, they are fine and helpful folks to play with. But that is not how some represented themselves here today.

The arguing against the meta proponents is overbearing and petty. Again, I am sure that is not those posters' intentions, nor is it representative of them as players. A couple of my comments fall in this area, and I regret them.

But the end result is terribly damaging to the reputation of the End Game Community as a whole. It didn't have to be this way. You all are better than that.

I hope that the chest-thumping might be set aside in the interest of creating a positive and welcoming impression on every future end game player who visits the Forums. Really.

Think beyond trying to score points on opposing viewpoints and be the champions of the game your achievements prove you really are.

Sorry, but there is nothing toxic about pointing out that other sets are simply better. Please read back this thread, there are enough Xynode fanboys getting offended on his behalf and are throwing terms like "elitist" around. I don't see any endgame player running around calling the beginners noobs or other toxic terms. At most I see "casuals".

As someone who spends a lot of time helping newer players ingame or on reddit it's incredibly frustrating to deal with builds that advertise themselves as endgame builds that aren't really up to standard and require farming of subpar sets. I've taken issues with some of Alcasts build about this in the past as well and I take issue with Xynode's. It's already difficult to consistently find up to date information in this game for newer players and all that misinformation spreading around doesn't help at all.

The endgame community in this game is incredibly helpful. I haven't met anyone yet who wasn't willing to give at least some pointers when asked nicely. At this point I had people from pretty much all endgame guilds answer questions of mine no matter how silly the questions seemed. Some totally went out of their way to get me screenshots of builds and parses and explain tactics for fights. It works really well when not running around calling them elitists and accepting their advice rather than getting all combative about it.

As I said before there is a reason meta develops and it's done on testing efforts of 100s of people. I am not saying to take everything that is said as gospel, but maybe people should stop and realize that there is a reason this meta has developed in this way. It's never created by an individual.

In this game people love to run around calling endgame players toxic elitists and it seems okay for most people. There are of course some bad examples in the endgame community, but that is within expectations.

I've watched the Xynode stream last night and he seemed way more toxic than the average endgame player. Constantly trash talking the pugs he played with including low CPs. Usually that quickly gets you the boot in endgame guilds no matter how good you are individually. That people run around worshiping him while calling other endgame players toxic elitists is beyond me.

No, this thread started as an appreciation thread for a content creator, until another one decided to turn it into some meta vs. casual thread, completely derailing it.

You dont have to like Xynode.. in which case what you could have said was....nothing. You could have rolled your eyes, chuckled quietly to yourself, or whatever haters do, and let people who wanted to thank the man for what he contributed to the community do so.

Like I've said, I've had my own issues with the man. This has nothing to do with sets or meta vs. casual...it has to do with jerks coming in to derail a thread with bull**** that has nothing to do with the original point.

THAT'S what makes it toxic.
You dont have to like the man, but what's happening here is classless shaming.

Its shining a light on how petty this community is, and I'm ashamed I got dragged into it.
All you fools should too, but doubtful.

It's not about agenda, it's about respect. And we've shown in this thread this community is extreamly lacking...

I'm still trying to understand what part of Heelie‘s initial comment could be seen as "toxic".......

Who's Heelie?

I'm still trying to understand why people feel the need to *** on others in the first place.

I struggle to see where this is an "appreciation thread". OP asked about opinion on Xynodes builds and that's what people provided.

Fair enough ...fair enough....

Save the echo chamber stuff though...this entire post is about coping other peoples builds and spouting other peoples information. The entire thread is two echo chambers clashing....let's be real.

kylewwefan · May 2019

Feels like you’re completely missing the point of easy Sorc. It’s an AOE powerhouse build simple enough for the most laid back players to do well with.

Sorry about your maths and stuff. If your not very good. Easy Sorc is gonna be much better for you than Julianos Mother Sorrow.

It’s not a HM Trial build.

Get the endgame HM trials and 90k parses out your head. This is a build that’s gonna get you 30k+ with very little skill. If pulling a trigger and pushing buttons is indeed skill?

Siroria does not promote low skill play. At all. Neither does Relequen.

I get it. I’m the guy that sets the trap in the wrong place, has to move re set trap. Endless, caltrops, oh crap the boss moved, gotta go start over again. Haven’t got a Light Attack in awhile better work on that, let’s restart this rotation.

And the Sorc. It goes like Wall of Elements, light attack, crap it got stuck in heavy attack animation! Liquid lightning bar swap, what was I doing? Oh yeah heavy attack, minefield heavy attack swap bar. Man that wall of elements has been gone for awhile. Better get it right this time.

And you know what. You’re still pumping out like 25k. With Julianos MS, I’m at like 17k. That’s what the build is really for.

jazsper77 · May 2019

Yes but my original post did not ask for Endgame/ HM builds. What I said was his builds were DIFFERENT. Also asked if anyone USED his builds in game not DUMMY HUMPING.

But a certain group of players from a trials guild who think there HODOR hijacked the thread into a look at me look at me .#FACTS

FluffyKitten · May 2019

T3hasiangod wrote: »

SNIP!

So amazingly unprofessional, childish and stupid, you are a content creator talking about another content creator on a public forum (appreciation thread at that) no wonder I never liked your videos, guess your personality shines thru.

NB, feel free to slap my hand admins, this *** needs to be called out.

unbelievable...

jazsper77 · May 2019

Btw during the event I ran a mule toon thru all Vet Crag Trials with 5xDefiler 5xUnfathom and 2xAgility all .
Never died once but guess what toon had to keep rezing the loudmouth AY,Veli,Relequin player ( this guy)

It’s about rotation and Mechanics, gear plays a SMALL part of a build. Your Gear is not saving you from bad rotations and mechanics

Aurielle · May 2019

Man, this thread is basically a perfect summation of why I left PVE for brighter PVP pastures. I was once in an end game trials guild that increasingly pushed for all members to start working towards running meta Hodor setups. Being told what you can and can’t wear to a trial is pretty frustrating when it’s possible to achieve excellent DPS and excellent healing/tanking performance with a wide variety of sets. I love how these hardcore proponents of the “meta or bust” camp claim to not be elitists, when everything they’re saying contradicts that claim... it’s a game, not math camp.

ZOS_RogerJ · May 2019

Greetings! We've locked this thread as it has generally become non-constructive, and to prevent further spiraling.