Cherryblossom wrote: »

Have to say I'm not really understanding the issue with the crates, are they not just allowing some people if they want to, to gamble on getting a special mount!? This is a choice isn't it, if we don't buy do we get banned from the game?

If the sword of ultimate smiting goes in a box, then I might consider there to be a problem, but I don't see that this is planned to happen.

They'll get there. It may not be planned to happen yet, but don't forget the original "We have no plans for locked rng boxes." Technically they kept their word. The rng boxes aren't locked.

After all the feedback and comments and complaints and suggestions for how to mitigate the rngesus boxes in the pts thread, the idea that came back in Gina's comment was in effect "Gee. We see you don't like the consumables, so we'll buff them to be better. Maybe tweak the number of gems for duplicates. Maybe allow you to sell back the consumables no one likes or will use for gems. Oh, and to sort of kind of maybe keep the promise to never sell anything in the crown store better than players can make, we'll throw in a recipe that uses two incredibly rare drops to make something similar to the gamble box item that you can use after you get all seven of the original recipe parts that is also an incredibly rare drop."

It also isn't the "exclusive" special mounts. There are "old" items that were limited time offers. At one point it was said they might eventually return to the store for purchase. Not for gambling prizes, but purchase. I tested the pts crates. I disliked the atronach "exclusive" mounts. I was trying for the clouded leopard mount that had been a limited time sale. I did eventually get it from the last two crates I opened on the pts. Original offer price was, iirc, 2500 crowns. Buying the maximum number of crates for the 5500 crowns we got in the pts test every day for the full run of the test, the clouded leopard only cost around 33,000 or so crowns. I also ended up with costumes I detested, consumables I didn't want and would never use, markings and hairstyles for argonians I never play, and every pet I never wanted and wouldn't have bought. Every one instantly bound to my account forever unless I do the DESTROY thing to get rid of it.

[SNIP]

I dont have to make an argument, that's one of the benefits of taking a balanced approach to things. If you're claiming that this stupid horse crate issue is going to directly effect my playtime significantly then the burdens of the argument fall on you because that's a pretty outlandish claim with dubious evidence. I know what ruins MMOs for my playstyle and it has nothing to do with gambling or appearence items. Those do not present balance or gameplay issues and those are far higher on your average players priority list. Assuming the average player is still here to play a game and is less concerned with dressup barbie time, that's just a fact.

SaibotLiu wrote: »

MMO players are generally a bunch of spoiled pretentious pseudo-intellectuals. Not all but Id say around 10% is a good number. It feels like more cause well, theyre stupidly loud. In this or any other case members of this not so elite group that makes up that portion of the population will talk your ear off about virtualy any topic as if they have some measure of expertise. It really makes no difference how trivial the topic might be, theyll yap whine and moan because pissing and moaning like everything else falls under their expert jurisdiction.

Now there may be some legit concerns about the cratres and the evils of this kind of gambling etc. But those of you chuds who blow up this or any other little issue are just setting up a boy who cried wolf scenario for those who might really have a point here. Personally, there are bigger issues for me than crates and limited edition mounts and the people who are going to spend money on them, so Ill reserve judgement for now and NOT act like it's the end of the game scenario this week and focus on the issues that actually effect me directly.

And yeah sure, someone will say "ZOMG bruh this issue like effects all da people Im da Ch4mp of all da issues wink wink".

No, no it doesnt. The end.

This doesn't paint a good picture. I agree MMO communities have their faults - one of the biggest faults is the inability to empathise with other parts of the community when the issue is not something they find to be immediately important to them...

...come to think of it, that's actually reflective of the real world too.

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

MMO players are generally a bunch of spoiled pretentious pseudo-intellectuals. Not all but Id say around 10% is a good number. It feels like more cause well, theyre stupidly loud. In this or any other case members of this not so elite group that makes up that portion of the population will talk your ear off about virtualy any topic as if they have some measure of expertise. It really makes no difference how trivial the topic might be, theyll yap whine and moan because pissing and moaning like everything else falls under their expert jurisdiction.

Now there may be some legit concerns about the cratres and the evils of this kind of gambling etc. But those of you chuds who blow up this or any other little issue are just setting up a boy who cried wolf scenario for those who might really have a point here. Personally, there are bigger issues for me than crates and limited edition mounts and the people who are going to spend money on them, so Ill reserve judgement for now and NOT act like it's the end of the game scenario this week and focus on the issues that actually effect me directly.

And yeah sure, someone will say "ZOMG bruh this issue like effects all da people Im da Ch4mp of all da issues wink wink".

No, no it doesnt. The end.

This doesn't paint a good picture. I agree MMO communities have their faults - one of the biggest faults is the inability to empathise with other parts of the community when the issue is not something they find to be immediately important to them...

...come to think of it, that's actually reflective of the real world too.

So saying some people may have legit concerns about the issue doesnt qualify as empathy?

Or you just entirely skipped that part because it's entirely detrimental to your agenda to demonize people who dont agree with you?

lol See it's not hard to pick a general theme and then do some amateur psychoanalysis BS, especially when you frame that around a couple of words instead of the narrative.

But you get C- for effort.

Abeille wrote: »

Alright, thank you very much.
I rest my case.

So your whole argument was I dont have an argument?

I thought you were trying to be the gold standard and be compelling here, but it appears you dont really gave a damn thing to say.

But tyvm for contributing.

Not at all, I recognise that you've chosen to label some concerns as legit, while dismissing ones you have no personal interest in, that's all.

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Alright, thank you very much.
I rest my case.

So your whole argument was I dont have an argument?

I thought you were trying to be the gold standard and be compelling here, but it appears you dont really gave a damn thing to say.

But tyvm for contributing.

I already said everything I had to say - and that was a lot.
If you don't have an argument against it, what else can I do but thanking you for your input and moving on?
Otherwise, we get in the "No, you!" area of arguments and that doesn't really get anywhere.

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Alright, thank you very much.
I rest my case.

So your whole arg

Xabien wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

MMO players are generally a bunch of spoiled pretentious pseudo-intellectuals. Not all but Id say around 10% is a good number. It feels like more cause well, theyre stupidly loud. In this or any other case members of this not so elite group that makes up that portion of the population will talk your ear off about virtualy any topic as if they have some measure of expertise. It really makes no difference how trivial the topic might be, theyll yap whine and moan because pissing and moaning like everything else falls under their expert jurisdiction.

Now there may be some legit concerns about the cratres and the evils of this kind of gambling etc. But those of you chuds who blow up this or any other little issue are just setting up a boy who cried wolf scenario for those who might really have a point here. Personally, there are bigger issues for me than crates and limited edition mounts and the people who are going to spend money on them, so Ill reserve judgement for now and NOT act like it's the end of the game scenario this week and focus on the issues that actually effect me directly.

And yeah sure, someone will say "ZOMG bruh this issue like effects all da people Im da Ch4mp of all da issues wink wink".

No, no it doesnt. The end.

This doesn't paint a good picture. I agree MMO communities have their faults - one of the biggest faults is the inability to empathise with other parts of the community when the issue is not something they find to be immediately important to them...

...come to think of it, that's actually reflective of the real world too.

So saying some people may have legit concerns about the issue doesnt qualify as empathy?

Or you just entirely skipped that part because it's entirely detrimental to your agenda to demonize people who dont agree with you?

lol See it's not hard to pick a general theme and then do some amateur psychoanalysis BS, especially when you frame that around a couple of words instead of the narrative.

But you get C- for effort.

Abeille wrote: »

Alright, thank you very much.
I rest my case.

So your whole argument was I dont have an argument?

I thought you were trying to be the gold standard and be compelling here, but it appears you dont really gave a damn thing to say.

But tyvm for contributing.

Not at all, I recognise that you've chosen to label some concerns as legit, while dismissing ones you have no personal interest in, that's all.

Were only talking about one issue on this thread, crown crates. So acknowledging "some concerns" is the same as acknowledging the issue. So your post, like the one below, are just passive aggressive time wasters who got stung by my post or something. [SNIP]

One of us is flying off the handle here, and it's not me. I'm trying to point out that a non-issue for one player could well be a perfectly valid issue for another.... I was about to begin explaining myself but frankly, I've lot all patience for people with no empathy this year, so nvm.

Xabien wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Alright, thank you very much.
I rest my case.

So your whole arg

Xabien wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

MMO players are generally a bunch of spoiled pretentious pseudo-intellectuals. Not all but Id say around 10% is a good number. It feels like more cause well, theyre stupidly loud. In this or any other case members of this not so elite group that makes up that portion of the population will talk your ear off about virtualy any topic as if they have some measure of expertise. It really makes no difference how trivial the topic might be, theyll yap whine and moan because pissing and moaning like everything else falls under their expert jurisdiction.

Now there may be some legit concerns about the cratres and the evils of this kind of gambling etc. But those of you chuds who blow up this or any other little issue are just setting up a boy who cried wolf scenario for those who might really have a point here. Personally, there are bigger issues for me than crates and limited edition mounts and the people who are going to spend money on them, so Ill reserve judgement for now and NOT act like it's the end of the game scenario this week and focus on the issues that actually effect me directly.

And yeah sure, someone will say "ZOMG bruh this issue like effects all da people Im da Ch4mp of all da issues wink wink".

No, no it doesnt. The end.

This doesn't paint a good picture. I agree MMO communities have their faults - one of the biggest faults is the inability to empathise with other parts of the community when the issue is not something they find to be immediately important to them...

...come to think of it, that's actually reflective of the real world too.

So saying some people may have legit concerns about the issue doesnt qualify as empathy?

Or you just entirely skipped that part because it's entirely detrimental to your agenda to demonize people who dont agree with you?

lol See it's not hard to pick a general theme and then do some amateur psychoanalysis BS, especially when you frame that around a couple of words instead of the narrative.

But you get C- for effort.

Abeille wrote: »

Alright, thank you very much.
I rest my case.

So your whole argument was I dont have an argument?

I thought you were trying to be the gold standard and be compelling here, but it appears you dont really gave a damn thing to say.

But tyvm for contributing.

Not at all, I recognise that you've chosen to label some concerns as legit, while dismissing ones you have no personal interest in, that's all.

Were only talking about one issue on this thread, crown crates. So acknowledging "some concerns" is the same as acknowledging the issue. So your post, like the one below, are just passive aggressive time wasters who got stung by my post or something. Well man up and find your angry inch if you're offended and stop wasting bandwidth.

One of us is flying off the handle here, and it's not me. I'm trying to point out that a non-issue for one player could well be a perfectly valid issue for another.... I was about to begin explaining myself but frankly, I've lot all patience for people with no empathy this year, so nvm.

Abeille wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I already said everything I had to say - and that was a lot.

So you should be done talking then.

This is not an "argue against Abeilles points thread" if you were noteworthy Im sure someone will take up that crusade eventually, personally I dont know you and dont care to. Bye felicia.

I would, but people keep bringing up points that were already discussed.

Why are you so angry? Don't you want to talk about the issue? I'm open to discuss all the points I brought up if you wish, but if you refuse to present any arguments and keep just attacking people it is kinda hard to have a conversation.

Im not angry Im just not recognizing you as the authority on the subject you think you are lol. You keep quoting my posts begging me to interact with you or something. Saying I dont want to doesnt make me angry Im just not interested, at all.

Why are you so desperate to argue with me without arguments? Do I do it for ya?

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

Alright, thank you very much.
I rest my case.

So your whole arg

Xabien wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

MMO players are generally a bunch of spoiled pretentious pseudo-intellectuals. Not all but Id say around 10% is a good number. It feels like more cause well, theyre stupidly loud. In this or any other case members of this not so elite group that makes up that portion of the population will talk your ear off about virtualy any topic as if they have some measure of expertise. It really makes no difference how trivial the topic might be, theyll yap whine and moan because pissing and moaning like everything else falls under their expert jurisdiction.

Now there may be some legit concerns about the cratres and the evils of this kind of gambling etc. But those of you chuds who blow up this or any other little issue are just setting up a boy who cried wolf scenario for those who might really have a point here. Personally, there are bigger issues for me than crates and limited edition mounts and the people who are going to spend money on them, so Ill reserve judgement for now and NOT act like it's the end of the game scenario this week and focus on the issues that actually effect me directly.

And yeah sure, someone will say "ZOMG bruh this issue like effects all da people Im da Ch4mp of all da issues wink wink".

No, no it doesnt. The end.

This doesn't paint a good picture. I agree MMO communities have their faults - one of the biggest faults is the inability to empathise with other parts of the community when the issue is not something they find to be immediately important to them...

...come to think of it, that's actually reflective of the real world too.

So saying some people may have legit concerns about the issue doesnt qualify as empathy?

Or you just entirely skipped that part because it's entirely detrimental to your agenda to demonize people who dont agree with you?

lol See it's not hard to pick a general theme and then do some amateur psychoanalysis BS, especially when you frame that around a couple of words instead of the narrative.

But you get C- for effort.

Abeille wrote: »

Alright, thank you very much.
I rest my case.

So your whole argument was I dont have an argument?

I thought you were trying to be the gold standard and be compelling here, but it appears you dont really gave a damn thing to say.

But tyvm for contributing.

Not at all, I recognise that you've chosen to label some concerns as legit, while dismissing ones you have no personal interest in, that's all.

Were only talking about one issue on this thread, crown crates. So acknowledging "some concerns" is the same as acknowledging the issue. So your post, like the one below, are just passive aggressive time wasters who got stung by my post or something. Well man up and find your angry inch if you're offended and stop wasting bandwidth.

One of us is flying off the handle here, and it's not me. I'm trying to point out that a non-issue for one player could well be a perfectly valid issue for another.... I was about to begin explaining myself but frankly, I've lot all patience for people with no empathy this year, so nvm.

Abeille wrote: »

SaibotLiu wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

I already said everything I had to say - and that was a lot.

So you should be done talking then.

This is not an "argue against Abeilles points thread" if you were noteworthy Im sure someone will take up that crusade eventually, personally I dont know you and dont care to. Bye felicia.

I would, but people keep bringing up points that were already discussed.

Why are you so angry? Don't you want to talk about the issue? I'm open to discuss all the points I brought up if you wish, but if you refuse to present any arguments and keep just attacking people it is kinda hard to have a conversation.

Im not angry Im just not recognizing you as the authority on the subject you think you are lol. You keep quoting my posts begging me to interact with you or something. Saying I dont want to doesnt make me angry Im just not interested, at all.

Why are you so desperate to argue with me without arguments? Do I do it for ya?

No, attacking people and using certain terms and expressions to address them is what makes it seem like you are angry.

And I just like arguing, I kinda do that for a living

I find it odd that you would be so aggressive but not present any points. It spiked my curiosity.

I was enjoying this thread more when it was taking that turn into omens of the apocalypse and I felt as if I were in Evermore with the talking crow.

My sub renewal was coming up and, yeah, I take issues of how customers are treated seriously....mostly because that was a huge chunk of my life for decades as it is for many people on this forum whose job it is to serve others.

But it remains in the realm of maybe...likely, yes, but still maybe. So I re-upped for 90 days.

Yes, I will be sad if the system, in the form Miss Bizz's videos showed, comes to pass. If you want to make more money you should offer more goods for sale. But that's not how this business operates now and it hasn't operated that way for a long, long time which is one reason why I retired from it.

As Lenny Bruce once said:

"The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is."

Cazzy wrote: »

By Kyne I love you @Abeille - may you have all the luck in the world when you get your legendary human Ban-hammer!

Thanks, love you too @Cazzy ! It will be at least two more years until I finish the post-graduation course and have any chance at the exam, though. Maybe my Altmer will have black hair already by then xD

Abeille wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

I shake my head at you people who are so enraged over a game and the decisions a business makes with that game. That however is your choice.

I can't understand why people who oppose crown crates are continuously characterized as being "enraged" or whatnot. I'm not seeing a lot of caps-lock, frothing at the mouth rage posts in these threads. Sure there is the occasional s**t-post, but most of the crown crate antagonists are posting calm, well thought out arguments for why they believe crates will detract from a game they otherwise thoroughly enjoy.

These forums exist as a way for customers to give feedback about the "game and the decisions a business makes with that game." The vast majority of the people arguing against the crates are doing just that in a very calm and reasonable manner. Why all the mischaracterizations?

Are you speaking in this thread specifically? Or all threads about it? You might want to look into some of the older ones. I did not refer to you or anyone else

Abeille wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

I shake my head at you people who are so enraged over a game and the decisions a business makes with that game. That however is your choice.

That should be easy and quick to explain. We kinda want to remain able to play and enjoy the game, and the decisions ZOS is making are heavily suggesting that we won't be able to do so soon. Not everybody is a MMO hopper, you know.

Also I called for Santie but since Men'Do is here he gets ear scratches instead.

Well this to will be simple and quick. It wont happen. The game at some point will not make enough money to keep the lights on and go dark. Its the question of time that is the only unknown here

So the decision to release 1T for free, DLCS, updates to try and improve the game before these crown crates all get flushed and crates all of a sudden mean you will not be able to play your game? That's a reach....

Everyone is an MMO hopper, its how long it takes which varies.... since if they were not they would not be here and still playing their original MMO! Actually I am not an MMO hopper yet as this is my first one

Okay, maybe it won't be as quick as I imagine. Here are the issues with your points:

1 - While no MMO lasts forever, ESO isn't even three years old yet, so players who are not MMO Hoppers certainly expected it to go on for a few more years. And ESO has a kind of niche player base that is similar to what LOTRO has. LOTRO is turning 10 years old next year.

2 - We went from "One DLC per quarter" to "Not every DLC will be big like Orsinium" and finally to "Not every quarterly update will be a DLC". The kind of update that One Tamriel was is not the kind of update that can be sold, but it is the kind of update that, like the removal of veteran ranks, could be rolled out with a DLC. But we are on the "Not every quarterly update will be a DLC", now. You know, the scarceness of content that happens when the company changes their focus to something else (that being the Crates). It doesn't get better from here. That's what RNG Boxes mean in MMOs: Content release slowing down, Free to Play transition and a last ditch effort to make as much money as possible before lights go out. The Crates do not mean I am automatically unable to play the game, they mean we are in a downward spiral that will result in, yes, not being able to enjoy or to even play the game anymore.

3 - This is false. A MMO Hopper is someone that isn't attached to a MMO and will move to the next shiny thing whenever it shows up. Maybe your definition of MMO Hopper is not the common definition.

4 - I see. Since it is your first MMO, you didn't see this process happen in other MMOs before, and that's why you can't understand the harm that these things cause. But I will let you know that we are not being paranoid here. This happened many times before, and we have a person who did this to other MMOs working with ZOS now. I hope you pay attention to what happens on the next few months and take this experience to your next MMO.

1. Who says it will not go on another few years? I know you are, but as per my previous posting thats simply your opinion, not a fact. I think they have an end game right around the next Elder Scrolls release, thats about the only guess I can make, logic behind it is many of the players I feel will leave it behind when a new and shiny elder scrolls title releases. I think they are more than on track to meet that target, I know I don't have any plans on leaving anytime soon.

2. So? That's life, sometimes you get a lot of great content per year, others you do not. Sometimes mcdonalds rolls out a new burger, sometimes they do not, its business, and factors we do not get to see are what determines it, so lets not pretend to know the details, there could be many reasons why DLC quality varies from year to year, maybe its because they have started losing revenue already. All I can say which is the only fact here, I have been happy with what they have rolled out so far, and I have been given no reasons to not expect some great new DLCs in the future, not everyone burns through stuff in a month, I have yet to even touch the Orsinium DLC, I have plenty of game to play for a while yet.

3. How can you say something is false for a made up definition? The actual definition of hopper is as follows:
a container for a bulk material such as grain, rock, or trash, typically one that tapers downward and is able to discharge its contents at the bottom.
OR
a person or thing that hops.

Even going by your definition of hopper, well I am sorry to say but I think a strong argument can be made that the bulk of a game stuidos money is made from the casual player, the "hopper" as you put it, they are going to follow the money. So cannot blame them as again, their goal is to make money.

4. Correct, first MMO and I have not seen this happen before, but you know what I am well versed in? Business. Your assumptions that crown crates destroys games (which would be bad for business) makes no sense to me when looked at with a business perspective. Being as ZOS is a multi million dollar company, I tend to believe they know how to run their business better than you.

1 - This kind of strategy is implemented when a MMO enters the "get as much as you can as fast as possible" phase. It doesn't mean the servers will shut down, but it means development of content will slow down (or even stop, if the game is put on life support in the end). I don't know it will happen to ESO, I know there is a big chance that it will because it happened to many other MMOs before it. The pattern is there when you are used to it from past experiences.

2 - "So" that we had a visible decrease in content, with no peaks, for the entire year. I would almost agree with you if we got another big DLC already, and I would absolutely agree there was a DLC announced that entered production before the specialist on F2P transition was hired, but that wasn't the case. Argue this again when we start going upwards on content release again, maybe? It will make more sense. Because, right now, it doesn't.

3 - Language is a way of expression of a culture, and not all of the words and expressions used by that culture will be found on the dictionary. The definition of such words and expressions depend solely on how they are used, and the way you used it isn't the way it is commonly used. A MMO Hopper ("hopper" from "hop", hopping", jumping from one to the other) is a player who doesn't get attached to a specific MMO and "jumps MMOs" as the new fad shows up.

4 - You, like others before you, are making wrongful assumptions regarding ZOS and their objectives with ESO. You see, you would be absolutely correct if ESO was a long-term plan for ZOS - and you have no idea of how I wish that was the case - but we have a person working with them that is specialized on F2P transition strategies, which points on the direction of ESO not being a long-term plan anymore. You are well-versed in business; if your company was backed by a mother company that owned many popular franchises and you came to the conclusion that moving on to the next project would be more profitable, what would you do with the old project that isn't as profitable as you have hoped? Because that's what the companies in the MMO industry do. They make a last ditch effort to get as much money as they can and then use that money to fund their next project. This happens all the time, it is absolutely normal for them to do that, but it kinda sucks for the player base of the old project.

1. Maybe the content will slow down, that's not what is being debated here as I agree, content will slow down eventually. Its the fact that the slow down was directly caused by crown crates which is what you are saying, which again, makes no sense when looking at it in a business perspective.

2. Is there not rumblings about some big DLC coming? Vvardenfell I think it was. 1T was just released, that was pretty big, and while not DLC, it was an update, same with the dueling. Its there, I dont personally have any idea the scope of work to implement these. How does it not make sense that year by year, DLC release will vary depending on many factors.

3. Point still stands, thats a pretty loose definition that leaves a lot to interpretation, and I would hardly call this culture and language, its computer speak for MMO, which I am admittedly not well versed on, regardless the point you made with it still does not hold up, as casuals is where the money is at, so unfortunately that is where they are going to direct their attention to. Try to appease everyone, but most importantly appease the biggest portion of your customer base.

4.You are also making assumptions, thats all we have as there are no facts, despite how badly you want me to believe they are. I said repeatedly I dont think ESO has long term plans, I just dont have a problem with them making money on something we can CHOOSE to partake in, if it adds some content to the game and extends it a bit more, great. In your example I would do exactly what ZOS is doing, its capitalism, make as much as you can while you can. While you think its unfair, its just the way it is, as stated before, a business does not cater to you, they cater to money. In their best interests they want to keep customers happy, but when that no longer makes much of a difference, time to make the most of it while the lights are still on. Harsh, but true.

1 - That is the main concern of the people who are against the crates. And it isn't absurd from a business standpoint when you do not plan to stick to that project much longer. It happens all the time in the MMO industry, and it is what we are worried about. We don't want this to happen here.

2 - Vvardenfell was datamined three months after the lady was hired, which means it had to be on production before she got in the team. The issue is that the information changed as time went by. If they had said outright that "We will have one update every quarter, can be a DLC or not, and not all DLCs will be of the same size" we wouldn't be arguing this. But the statement changed as time went by.

3 - If you wish to keep that ground. MMOs have a very specific lingo, and that's part of it. You could have just said outright that you are not familiar with it, that's fine, it isn't your obligation to know the expressions commonly used in MMOs, especially since you are new to them. But that's what it means. Also, casuals and MMO Hoppers are not the same thing. And it doesn't changes the fact that appeasing to MMO Hoppers on this way is bad for the healthy of the game in the long run, and, again, sucks for players who stick to the game.

4 - The problem is that you don't CHOOSE to partake on the damage caused by those things. People who buy the crates and people who do not will suffer the consequences of a sunk game all the same. I am making informed guesses more than assumptions, based on the pattern ZOS is following and the person hired to trace it in the ground for them. And I am not saying that doing that is unfair, I'm saying that it sucks for people who stick with the game. I'm glad you admit that you would do the same, because then you see how using the crates to sink the game in order to make as much money as you can before turning off the lights actually makes sense from a business standpoint and I can rest my case.

You must understand that we have people here who had been playing Elder Scrolls games for their entire lives. Would you be fine if someone took something you really loved for your whole life and ruined it completely in the name of "capitalism"? And then some people came to you completely disregarding it and telling you to keep quiet and just let it happen because "that's how it is"?
Maybe I'm getting old, maybe it is because I'm a lawyer, but I will speak up when someone takes something I love from me.

Being concerned about crown crates and its effect on the game does not equal crown crates destroy the game, so are you now backing off the fact that crown crates will destroy this game? Can you admit to the fact there are probably many factors which destroy this game, and at best crown crates add to it, at worst they make no difference and simply generate some extra revenue at end of life?

Does not matter when it was datamined, do you believe they just determined when they hired this person, that it was just done in a week? I would argue that decision was planned and made much longer than that, so its a moot point, the point is content has continued to roll out, that is what I see with my own eyes.

Not really interested in a discussion about terms, appears this is no longer relevent to the subject at hand, which is the belief that crown crates destroy a game.It also does not change the fact that game companies will cater to the money is, and that is in the casual market. Nor arguing it does not suck for someone like you, but life is not always fair either.

As has been stated, you have yet to provide a valid argument that crown crates cause significant damage. Does it effect some? Yes, are they in the majority? maybe, but thats also up in the air, most people that play the game probably are not even aware of these forums, forums attract the most passionate people about the game. Its another one of those things we can continue to go in circles on.

All I am pointing out as per my earlier post, is I have yet to see an argument as to why a company would deliberately choose to crater its game if these have the effect your stating. The logic of it does not make sense, and I think the real truth is much more complicated than what your making it out to be.

1 - Certainly not, but our concept of "destroying" seem to be different. Yours equal to "shutting the servers down" while ours is to "rapidly decline in quality, content stagnation, free to play" with server shut down being a consequence of the game being ruined. Crates are an essential part of the free-to-play conversion strategy that we already discussed - you know, the one you said you would follow too. And because they become the focus of development, they ruin games. So they are not "one of the many factors", they are the main factor, the one that causes the other factors like a big tower of cards coming down.

2 - I don't think you understood the statement at all. It being datamined in May means it was in production BEFORE SHE WAS HIRED, because three months after she was hired it was already in the game files. It does matter when it was datamined because it indicates when they started production, you see? ZOS has a big hang up with sunken costs. If Vvardenfell was already in production when the lady was hired, they wouldn't scrap it in favor of her strategy. That's not how they work. What would show that they do have long-term plans for the game would be if they initiated production of something despite her strategy. Which means, if they made something new and fantastic after she joined. So "Vvardenfell was datamined so content is still being produced at a reasonable pace, with a reasonable quality level" is absolutely invalid. It holds as much water than saying Orsinium was proof that the B2P transition had no impact on content production, while we know that Orsinium was in production before the B2P transition.

3 - I presented the arguments, you just decided not to accept them because you do not have any previous experience with this kind of strategy. Shift in development focus, content starts coming out slower (already happening), less things available to direct purchase (already happening as per this month's showcase), game's reputation dragged to the mud, Free-To-Play transition (more often than not, addition to things that are relevant to combat to the RNG boxes after this). That's what comes with the introduction of RNG boxes. That's what came with the RNG boxes every game that followed this path, the games where this lady worked on. You are yet to give me a reason why I should think ESO could be the one exception to the rule. And you are going back and forth with your statements. You said yourself it was something you would do if you were in ZOS place, you know it makes sense, and it is exactly what happens in the industry. Just give it a thought. If there was something that costs very little to produce but makes insane profit, would you invest on that or would you invest on something that takes much more work to make and doesn't sell for nearly as much? That's the Crates X Content issue.

You know, no one is born with experience. That is absolutely fine. But this really isn't going anywhere because you decided that, despite your lack of experience, you won't listen people who do have experience. You can continue in denial if you want, but please pay attention to the next months if you didn't pay attention to what happened to the pacing of content release this year already, so that on the next MMO you play you can identify the pattern like we did.

You want me to believe you based on your experience alone (and a whole slew of others apparently yet I see the same faces in each thread), I get it, but when I use some common sense and put myself into the company shoes and ask why, your whole argument falls apart. I have addressed it in previous posts which I have yet to hear any viable arguments for, they seem to have been skimmed over for some reason.

Yes I have no experience in MMO's, at least I can be honest and admit it, that does not discredit my legitimate questions when looking at things with a business perspective, which is what this is at the end of the day, a business decision. Your inexperience shows when it comes to how a business operates, makes decisions, and balancing generating revenue with customer satisfaction, that's fine also, but you need to learn that a company is there to make money, and not everyone will be happy with how they do so.

And I think you are the one who misunderstands, it was data mined 3 months before she was hired, fine. To think a company would make such a huge decision over the fate of the game in the way you make it out to be, I can almost guarantee that discussion to take that person on would have been had MUCH longer than 3 months ago. These decisions are not made easy. Again I have no proof, but in my experience a business would take a long time to make such a decision, not even getting into the fact contract negotiations and working out start dates for this person who seems to for some reason be in popular demand. I could see this being planned from the very beginning, just my opinion though, but pretty logical again when you think of it in running a business rather than your own personal experience which is already negative and poisoned.

Anyways I will let this get back to the nerd rage thread. I hold no ill will, we will simply agree to disagree. Your experience to my business logic, does not seem like its going to go anywhere soon. I will give it a few months and review, how I am going to do so? No idea, I think numbers will go down regardless as 1T brought a lot of people back, and I think that will trickle off, but if its as "rapidly descending" of a demise as its made out to be it should be noticeable, and like I said before I will admit if I am wrong, but will you?

You are seeing the same people now because this was already extensively discussed and, since the crates were taken off the PTS and not added to the Live Game so far, most of the discussion has died down. You can check the official feedback thread for them on the PTS forum for an earlier discussion, though to find the first discussions about it (that happened when they were announced) you will have to do a little digging. You will see that there are many more who had this kind of experience too, if you do that.

You have to decide if it makes sense or if it doesn't make sense, though. You said you would do it yourself, but you think it doesn't make sense? That's odd.

All your arguments are addressed with the same argument: Your arguments only make sense from a business standpoint if you have long-term plans for that business, and mine only make sense if you do not have long-term plans for that business and want to get as much cash as possible as fast as you can so you can go to your next project. That's what you are ignoring. The pattern they are following heavily indicates that ESO isn't a long-term project anymore, and that's why it makes sense to discard it, like many companies did to many MMOs before.

Things move a little bit faster in the gaming industry than you might be used to, especially in MMOs. I am actually pretty familiar with different kinds of business, and I can tell you that if you are not familiar with the gaming industry specifically then that's why this sounds so alien to you. Going by the information we have, it seems that this person specifically was hired by Bethesda (which is a sister company), and then got in charge of ZOS's marketing. Employees move around the companies that are part of the same mother company pretty easily, so it happens even faster than usual. If discarding the game was planned from the beginning, well, that's even worse, but it would make sense too. Then Vvardenfell might be the last big area we will see added for a long time.

Also I have experience running a business, I actually run a pretty successful company with four stores and two factories, with my family (That's only until I pass the test to become a Judge, however, since Judges are not allowed to run companies in my country). But I realize the differences between my kind of company and a gaming company because I studied this field a lot.

And I would LOVE to be able to say I am wrong, because I really love this game. I want more than anything for ZOS to show me that they are different and that they won't do what the other companies did. I just want to go back to complaining only about the lack of black hair for Altmer, which was LITERALLY my only real complaint for over two years playing the game, up until the crates were announced.

I am not ignoring anything, I have said repeatedly that in my opinion ESO des not have a long term outlook. Please refer to my posts explaining why I believe this, to sum it up, techonology progresses at a rapid rate, new games will come out which will steal customers, new elder scrolls will come out which will steal customers and the very fact that if a business has a 10 year plan for a game, that will not make them more money than having a 5 year plan, go on to another project, then come up with a follow up 5 year plan on ESO2 for example in which the customer would have to buy the game, costumes, crowns, mounts etc again. This was all explained earlier, but you keep accusing me of the one that is not listening, perhaps instead of reacting to my posts, you would be better served reading them. This is why I am starting to see this whole thing is pointless. You will not look at things with a different perspective which is rooted in reality rather than what you want.

I do have to decide if it makes sense or it does not make sense. Literally the only way your claims will make sense is if the company is brain dead stupid, I like my odds.

Please see my point above, I think my point that crown crates are not as detrimental to the game as you make it out to be stands in both long and short term scenarios. I do not think they have long term plans either, but that does not mean crown crates are responsible for it.

Now you are admitting that technology moves faster, thank you for agreeing to my point. So technology moves quickly, yet you want a long term investment where the technology will be outdated. You are contradicting yourself here, and no, it does not happen faster than usual.
-Fact, 1T was just released, this has driven many users back to the game
-Fact, there will be a large new DLC coming soon which will attempt to keep those users around
-Fact, crown crates will be sandwiched between these two, seems really smart timing to launch them! But you go ahead and think this was a decision made on a whim.

If you have so much experience running a business, I would think you would be able to spot the timing of these launches and see the reality of what their plan most likely is here, and that crown crates are not the cause, but simply a way to make money because the cause of the downfall of this game is simply the times we live in, technology moves fast, competition is fierce and cut throat, and they are all working to get the most dollars from its consumers. Keeping an outdated product alive for people like yourself is not good business sense, you would be leaving a lot of money on the table with the casuals and people who always want the best technology. I would also think you would be able to see my point that if these are so detrimental, that different businesses would not keep going down the path, being involved in a family business apparently does not help with the insight on how one generates income not only now, but well into the future. So you apparently "get" business, but still feel crown crates are going to rapidly decline this game, that's all the more evidence that your too personally invested in this to see the reality.

Its a scary thought that you could be a judge, since here we have an example of you throwing a business under the bus under what you are assuming it will do. How do you think that will work out for you on the bench? Are you going to judge someone guilty because they have started the same path as a criminal before them, even before they do the crime? As a judge in training, I would think you would know better, but before you take off the training wheels, you might want to look into some self reflection about your own opinions and how that reflects on you since your clearly biased here. I have nothing to gain from this at all, nothing....

summitxho wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

I shake my head at you people who are so enraged over a game and the decisions a business makes with that game. That however is your choice.

I can't understand why people who oppose crown crates are continuously characterized as being "enraged" or whatnot. I'm not seeing a lot of caps-lock, frothing at the mouth rage posts in these threads. Sure there is the occasional s**t-post, but most of the crown crate antagonists are posting calm, well thought out arguments for why they believe crates will detract from a game they otherwise thoroughly enjoy.

These forums exist as a way for customers to give feedback about the "game and the decisions a business makes with that game." The vast majority of the people arguing against the crates are doing just that in a very calm and reasonable manner. Why all the mischaracterizations?

Are you speaking in this thread specifically? Or all threads about it? You might want to look into some of the older ones. I did not refer to you or anyone else

Abeille wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

summitxho wrote: »

I shake my head at you people who are so enraged over a game and the decisions a business makes with that game. That however is your choice.

That should be easy and quick to explain. We kinda want to remain able to play and enjoy the game, and the decisions ZOS is making are heavily suggesting that we won't be able to do so soon. Not everybody is a MMO hopper, you know.

Also I called for Santie but since Men'Do is here he gets ear scratches instead.

Well this to will be simple and quick. It wont happen. The game at some point will not make enough money to keep the lights on and go dark. Its the question of time that is the only unknown here

So the decision to release 1T for free, DLCS, updates to try and improve the game before these crown crates all get flushed and crates all of a sudden mean you will not be able to play your game? That's a reach....

Everyone is an MMO hopper, its how long it takes which varies.... since if they were not they would not be here and still playing their original MMO! Actually I am not an MMO hopper yet as this is my first one

Okay, maybe it won't be as quick as I imagine. Here are the issues with your points:

1 - While no MMO lasts forever, ESO isn't even three years old yet, so players who are not MMO Hoppers certainly expected it to go on for a few more years. And ESO has a kind of niche player base that is similar to what LOTRO has. LOTRO is turning 10 years old next year.

2 - We went from "One DLC per quarter" to "Not every DLC will be big like Orsinium" and finally to "Not every quarterly update will be a DLC". The kind of update that One Tamriel was is not the kind of update that can be sold, but it is the kind of update that, like the removal of veteran ranks, could be rolled out with a DLC. But we are on the "Not every quarterly update will be a DLC", now. You know, the scarceness of content that happens when the company changes their focus to something else (that being the Crates). It doesn't get better from here. That's what RNG Boxes mean in MMOs: Content release slowing down, Free to Play transition and a last ditch effort to make as much money as possible before lights go out. The Crates do not mean I am automatically unable to play the game, they mean we are in a downward spiral that will result in, yes, not being able to enjoy or to even play the game anymore.

3 - This is false. A MMO Hopper is someone that isn't attached to a MMO and will move to the next shiny thing whenever it shows up. Maybe your definition of MMO Hopper is not the common definition.

4 - I see. Since it is your first MMO, you didn't see this process happen in other MMOs before, and that's why you can't understand the harm that these things cause. But I will let you know that we are not being paranoid here. This happened many times before, and we have a person who did this to other MMOs working with ZOS now. I hope you pay attention to what happens on the next few months and take this experience to your next MMO.

1. Who says it will not go on another few years? I know you are, but as per my previous posting thats simply your opinion, not a fact. I think they have an end game right around the next Elder Scrolls release, thats about the only guess I can make, logic behind it is many of the players I feel will leave it behind when a new and shiny elder scrolls title releases. I think they are more than on track to meet that target, I know I don't have any plans on leaving anytime soon.

2. So? That's life, sometimes you get a lot of great content per year, others you do not. Sometimes mcdonalds rolls out a new burger, sometimes they do not, its business, and factors we do not get to see are what determines it, so lets not pretend to know the details, there could be many reasons why DLC quality varies from year to year, maybe its because they have started losing revenue already. All I can say which is the only fact here, I have been happy with what they have rolled out so far, and I have been given no reasons to not expect some great new DLCs in the future, not everyone burns through stuff in a month, I have yet to even touch the Orsinium DLC, I have plenty of game to play for a while yet.

3. How can you say something is false for a made up definition? The actual definition of hopper is as follows:
a container for a bulk material such as grain, rock, or trash, typically one that tapers downward and is able to discharge its contents at the bottom.
OR
a person or thing that hops.

Even going by your definition of hopper, well I am sorry to say but I think a strong argument can be made that the bulk of a game stuidos money is made from the casual player, the "hopper" as you put it, they are going to follow the money. So cannot blame them as again, their goal is to make money.

4. Correct, first MMO and I have not seen this happen before, but you know what I am well versed in? Business. Your assumptions that crown crates destroys games (which would be bad for business) makes no sense to me when looked at with a business perspective. Being as ZOS is a multi million dollar company, I tend to believe they know how to run their business better than you.

1 - This kind of strategy is implemented when a MMO enters the "get as much as you can as fast as possible" phase. It doesn't mean the servers will shut down, but it means development of content will slow down (or even stop, if the game is put on life support in the end). I don't know it will happen to ESO, I know there is a big chance that it will because it happened to many other MMOs before it. The pattern is there when you are used to it from past experiences.

2 - "So" that we had a visible decrease in content, with no peaks, for the entire year. I would almost agree with you if we got another big DLC already, and I would absolutely agree there was a DLC announced that entered production before the specialist on F2P transition was hired, but that wasn't the case. Argue this again when we start going upwards on content release again, maybe? It will make more sense. Because, right now, it doesn't.

3 - Language is a way of expression of a culture, and not all of the words and expressions used by that culture will be found on the dictionary. The definition of such words and expressions depend solely on how they are used, and the way you used it isn't the way it is commonly used. A MMO Hopper ("hopper" from "hop", hopping", jumping from one to the other) is a player who doesn't get attached to a specific MMO and "jumps MMOs" as the new fad shows up.

4 - You, like others before you, are making wrongful assumptions regarding ZOS and their objectives with ESO. You see, you would be absolutely correct if ESO was a long-term plan for ZOS - and you have no idea of how I wish that was the case - but we have a person working with them that is specialized on F2P transition strategies, which points on the direction of ESO not being a long-term plan anymore. You are well-versed in business; if your company was backed by a mother company that owned many popular franchises and you came to the conclusion that moving on to the next project would be more profitable, what would you do with the old project that isn't as profitable as you have hoped? Because that's what the companies in the MMO industry do. They make a last ditch effort to get as much money as they can and then use that money to fund their next project. This happens all the time, it is absolutely normal for them to do that, but it kinda sucks for the player base of the old project.

1. Maybe the content will slow down, that's not what is being debated here as I agree, content will slow down eventually. Its the fact that the slow down was directly caused by crown crates which is what you are saying, which again, makes no sense when looking at it in a business perspective.

2. Is there not rumblings about some big DLC coming? Vvardenfell I think it was. 1T was just released, that was pretty big, and while not DLC, it was an update, same with the dueling. Its there, I dont personally have any idea the scope of work to implement these. How does it not make sense that year by year, DLC release will vary depending on many factors.

3. Point still stands, thats a pretty loose definition that leaves a lot to interpretation, and I would hardly call this culture and language, its computer speak for MMO, which I am admittedly not well versed on, regardless the point you made with it still does not hold up, as casuals is where the money is at, so unfortunately that is where they are going to direct their attention to. Try to appease everyone, but most importantly appease the biggest portion of your customer base.

4.You are also making assumptions, thats all we have as there are no facts, despite how badly you want me to believe they are. I said repeatedly I dont think ESO has long term plans, I just dont have a problem with them making money on something we can CHOOSE to partake in, if it adds some content to the game and extends it a bit more, great. In your example I would do exactly what ZOS is doing, its capitalism, make as much as you can while you can. While you think its unfair, its just the way it is, as stated before, a business does not cater to you, they cater to money. In their best interests they want to keep customers happy, but when that no longer makes much of a difference, time to make the most of it while the lights are still on. Harsh, but true.

1 - That is the main concern of the people who are against the crates. And it isn't absurd from a business standpoint when you do not plan to stick to that project much longer. It happens all the time in the MMO industry, and it is what we are worried about. We don't want this to happen here.

2 - Vvardenfell was datamined three months after the lady was hired, which means it had to be on production before she got in the team. The issue is that the information changed as time went by. If they had said outright that "We will have one update every quarter, can be a DLC or not, and not all DLCs will be of the same size" we wouldn't be arguing this. But the statement changed as time went by.

3 - If you wish to keep that ground. MMOs have a very specific lingo, and that's part of it. You could have just said outright that you are not familiar with it, that's fine, it isn't your obligation to know the expressions commonly used in MMOs, especially since you are new to them. But that's what it means. Also, casuals and MMO Hoppers are not the same thing. And it doesn't changes the fact that appeasing to MMO Hoppers on this way is bad for the healthy of the game in the long run, and, again, sucks for players who stick to the game.

4 - The problem is that you don't CHOOSE to partake on the damage caused by those things. People who buy the crates and people who do not will suffer the consequences of a sunk game all the same. I am making informed guesses more than assumptions, based on the pattern ZOS is following and the person hired to trace it in the ground for them. And I am not saying that doing that is unfair, I'm saying that it sucks for people who stick with the game. I'm glad you admit that you would do the same, because then you see how using the crates to sink the game in order to make as much money as you can before turning off the lights actually makes sense from a business standpoint and I can rest my case.

You must understand that we have people here who had been playing Elder Scrolls games for their entire lives. Would you be fine if someone took something you really loved for your whole life and ruined it completely in the name of "capitalism"? And then some people came to you completely disregarding it and telling you to keep quiet and just let it happen because "that's how it is"?
Maybe I'm getting old, maybe it is because I'm a lawyer, but I will speak up when someone takes something I love from me.

Being concerned about crown crates and its effect on the game does not equal crown crates destroy the game, so are you now backing off the fact that crown crates will destroy this game? Can you admit to the fact there are probably many factors which destroy this game, and at best crown crates add to it, at worst they make no difference and simply generate some extra revenue at end of life?

Does not matter when it was datamined, do you believe they just determined when they hired this person, that it was just done in a week? I would argue that decision was planned and made much longer than that, so its a moot point, the point is content has continued to roll out, that is what I see with my own eyes.

Not really interested in a discussion about terms, appears this is no longer relevent to the subject at hand, which is the belief that crown crates destroy a game.It also does not change the fact that game companies will cater to the money is, and that is in the casual market. Nor arguing it does not suck for someone like you, but life is not always fair either.

As has been stated, you have yet to provide a valid argument that crown crates cause significant damage. Does it effect some? Yes, are they in the majority? maybe, but thats also up in the air, most people that play the game probably are not even aware of these forums, forums attract the most passionate people about the game. Its another one of those things we can continue to go in circles on.

All I am pointing out as per my earlier post, is I have yet to see an argument as to why a company would deliberately choose to crater its game if these have the effect your stating. The logic of it does not make sense, and I think the real truth is much more complicated than what your making it out to be.

1 - Certainly not, but our concept of "destroying" seem to be different. Yours equal to "shutting the servers down" while ours is to "rapidly decline in quality, content stagnation, free to play" with server shut down being a consequence of the game being ruined. Crates are an essential part of the free-to-play conversion strategy that we already discussed - you know, the one you said you would follow too. And because they become the focus of development, they ruin games. So they are not "one of the many factors", they are the main factor, the one that causes the other factors like a big tower of cards coming down.

2 - I don't think you understood the statement at all. It being datamined in May means it was in production BEFORE SHE WAS HIRED, because three months after she was hired it was already in the game files. It does matter when it was datamined because it indicates when they started production, you see? ZOS has a big hang up with sunken costs. If Vvardenfell was already in production when the lady was hired, they wouldn't scrap it in favor of her strategy. That's not how they work. What would show that they do have long-term plans for the game would be if they initiated production of something despite her strategy. Which means, if they made something new and fantastic after she joined. So "Vvardenfell was datamined so content is still being produced at a reasonable pace, with a reasonable quality level" is absolutely invalid. It holds as much water than saying Orsinium was proof that the B2P transition had no impact on content production, while we know that Orsinium was in production before the B2P transition.

3 - I presented the arguments, you just decided not to accept them because you do not have any previous experience with this kind of strategy. Shift in development focus, content starts coming out slower (already happening), less things available to direct purchase (already happening as per this month's showcase), game's reputation dragged to the mud, Free-To-Play transition (more often than not, addition to things that are relevant to combat to the RNG boxes after this). That's what comes with the introduction of RNG boxes. That's what came with the RNG boxes every game that followed this path, the games where this lady worked on. You are yet to give me a reason why I should think ESO could be the one exception to the rule. And you are going back and forth with your statements. You said yourself it was something you would do if you were in ZOS place, you know it makes sense, and it is exactly what happens in the industry. Just give it a thought. If there was something that costs very little to produce but makes insane profit, would you invest on that or would you invest on something that takes much more work to make and doesn't sell for nearly as much? That's the Crates X Content issue.

You know, no one is born with experience. That is absolutely fine. But this really isn't going anywhere because you decided that, despite your lack of experience, you won't listen people who do have experience. You can continue in denial if you want, but please pay attention to the next months if you didn't pay attention to what happened to the pacing of content release this year already, so that on the next MMO you play you can identify the pattern like we did.

You want me to believe you based on your experience alone (and a whole slew of others apparently yet I see the same faces in each thread), I get it, but when I use some common sense and put myself into the company shoes and ask why, your whole argument falls apart. I have addressed it in previous posts which I have yet to hear any viable arguments for, they seem to have been skimmed over for some reason.

Yes I have no experience in MMO's, at least I can be honest and admit it, that does not discredit my legitimate questions when looking at things with a business perspective, which is what this is at the end of the day, a business decision. Your inexperience shows when it comes to how a business operates, makes decisions, and balancing generating revenue with customer satisfaction, that's fine also, but you need to learn that a company is there to make money, and not everyone will be happy with how they do so.

And I think you are the one who misunderstands, it was data mined 3 months before she was hired, fine. To think a company would make such a huge decision over the fate of the game in the way you make it out to be, I can almost guarantee that discussion to take that person on would have been had MUCH longer than 3 months ago. These decisions are not made easy. Again I have no proof, but in my experience a business would take a long time to make such a decision, not even getting into the fact contract negotiations and working out start dates for this person who seems to for some reason be in popular demand. I could see this being planned from the very beginning, just my opinion though, but pretty logical again when you think of it in running a business rather than your own personal experience which is already negative and poisoned.

Anyways I will let this get back to the nerd rage thread. I hold no ill will, we will simply agree to disagree. Your experience to my business logic, does not seem like its going to go anywhere soon. I will give it a few months and review, how I am going to do so? No idea, I think numbers will go down regardless as 1T brought a lot of people back, and I think that will trickle off, but if its as "rapidly descending" of a demise as its made out to be it should be noticeable, and like I said before I will admit if I am wrong, but will you?

You are seeing the same people now because this was already extensively discussed and, since the crates were taken off the PTS and not added to the Live Game so far, most of the discussion has died down. You can check the official feedback thread for them on the PTS forum for an earlier discussion, though to find the first discussions about it (that happened when they were announced) you will have to do a little digging. You will see that there are many more who had this kind of experience too, if you do that.

You have to decide if it makes sense or if it doesn't make sense, though. You said you would do it yourself, but you think it doesn't make sense? That's odd.

All your arguments are addressed with the same argument: Your arguments only make sense from a business standpoint if you have long-term plans for that business, and mine only make sense if you do not have long-term plans for that business and want to get as much cash as possible as fast as you can so you can go to your next project. That's what you are ignoring. The pattern they are following heavily indicates that ESO isn't a long-term project anymore, and that's why it makes sense to discard it, like many companies did to many MMOs before.

Things move a little bit faster in the gaming industry than you might be used to, especially in MMOs. I am actually pretty familiar with different kinds of business, and I can tell you that if you are not familiar with the gaming industry specifically then that's why this sounds so alien to you. Going by the information we have, it seems that this person specifically was hired by Bethesda (which is a sister company), and then got in charge of ZOS's marketing. Employees move around the companies that are part of the same mother company pretty easily, so it happens even faster than usual. If discarding the game was planned from the beginning, well, that's even worse, but it would make sense too. Then Vvardenfell might be the last big area we will see added for a long time.

Also I have experience running a business, I actually run a pretty successful company with four stores and two factories, with my family (That's only until I pass the test to become a Judge, however, since Judges are not allowed to run companies in my country). But I realize the differences between my kind of company and a gaming company because I studied this field a lot.

And I would LOVE to be able to say I am wrong, because I really love this game. I want more than anything for ZOS to show me that they are different and that they won't do what the other companies did. I just want to go back to complaining only about the lack of black hair for Altmer, which was LITERALLY my only real complaint for over two years playing the game, up until the crates were announced.

I am not ignoring anything, I have said repeatedly that in my opinion ESO des not have a long term outlook. Please refer to my posts explaining why I believe this, to sum it up, techonology progresses at a rapid rate, new games will come out which will steal customers, new elder scrolls will come out which will steal customers and the very fact that if a business has a 10 year plan for a game, that will not make them more money than having a 5 year plan, go on to another project, then come up with a follow up 5 year plan on ESO2 for example in which the customer would have to buy the game, costumes, crowns, mounts etc again. This was all explained earlier, but you keep accusing me of the one that is not listening, perhaps instead of reacting to my posts, you would be better served reading them. This is why I am starting to see this whole thing is pointless. You will not look at things with a different perspective which is rooted in reality rather than what you want.

I do have to decide if it makes sense or it does not make sense. Literally the only way your claims will make sense is if the company is brain dead stupid, I like my odds.

Please see my point above, I think my point that crown crates are not as detrimental to the game as you make it out to be stands in both long and short term scenarios. I do not think they have long term plans either, but that does not mean crown crates are responsible for it.

Now you are admitting that technology moves faster, thank you for agreeing to my point. So technology moves quickly, yet you want a long term investment where the technology will be outdated. You are contradicting yourself here, and no, it does not happen faster than usual.
-Fact, 1T was just released, this has driven many users back to the game
-Fact, there will be a large new DLC coming soon which will attempt to keep those users around
-Fact, crown crates will be sandwiched between these two, seems really smart timing to launch them! But you go ahead and think this was a decision made on a whim.

If you have so much experience running a business, I would think you would be able to spot the timing of these launches and see the reality of what their plan most likely is here, and that crown crates are not the cause, but simply a way to make money because the cause of the downfall of this game is simply the times we live in, technology moves fast, competition is fierce and cut throat, and they are all working to get the most dollars from its consumers. Keeping an outdated product alive for people like yourself is not good business sense, you would be leaving a lot of money on the table with the casuals and people who always want the best technology. I would also think you would be able to see my point that if these are so detrimental, that different businesses would not keep going down the path, being involved in a family business apparently does not help with the insight on how one generates income not only now, but well into the future. So you apparently "get" business, but still feel crown crates are going to rapidly decline this game, that's all the more evidence that your too personally invested in this to see the reality.

Its a scary thought that you could be a judge, since here we have an example of you throwing a business under the bus under what you are assuming it will do. How do you think that will work out for you on the bench? Are you going to judge criminals guilty because they committed the same crime as someone else without first hearing the facts?

I read all of your posts thoroughly, and I actually think we do agree in multiple points, but you still are not considering that the plan might just as well be discarding ESO to move to a next plan. You said for yourself that, on this case, you would do the same. If you would do the same and you have so much experience with business, why do you think the company would have to be "braindead stupid" to do it?

I am not contradicting myself, I am contradicting what you are making of my argument, which isn't what I said. And with MMOs, there is one thing regarding the technology moving fast: When a company has a long-term plan for a MMO and it is successful, the company can - and will - update the engine, textures and models as time goes by, as to stop the game from being outdated. It's the beauty of MMOs, they can change all the time.

I don't think adding crates was a decision made on a whim. They hired a person specialized in microtransitions in February, the announcement was made on... August? September? I don't remember now, but it was several months after she was hired. So here's what most likely happened: She was hired, she presented her plan (the same plan used in the previous games that went this route), the plan was discussed, they decided to go with it. There was enough time to discuss from when she was hired to when the crates were announced. But it could have happened on another way, too: ZOS decided they wanted crates, then they hired someone that is specialized on adding them to MMOs. None of these options, however, show that Vvardenfell's development started only after they made this decision, which is why Vvardenfell being added is no indication that the focus didn't shift.

I understand your point of view. You see the Crown Crates as a symptom instead of a cause. And you know, you might as well be correct, because they are indeed introduced as a business plan in the end (the F2P + RNG Boxes business plan). And this is a point that I actually do consider as a possibility, too, and I discussed this possibility a lot in the past with other forum goers.
However, if they are a symptom and they absolutely need to be added, there are ways to implement them that are not so consumer-unfriendly, like I suggested earlier.
And, of course, the product doesn't HAVE to stay outdated. MMOs are anything but static.

And it's very harmful to say such thing of me. That was really uncalled for. I am extremely diligent with my duties and I don't know what the word is in English but I'm what we call "garantista", which means I am extremely hung up on constitutional rights and put them above everything, no matter who the defendant is or what crime they are being accused of. I would be thankful if you could please refrain from using personal attacks like that. The comparison you made is absolutely absurd, too.
If you must know, no, I am not throwing ZOS under the bus. I'm pretty much begging on my knees for them to not do what everyone else did. I didn't even cancel my subscription, it will renew next week. I'm praising them in other threads for things they did right. How does disagreeing with this and do not want them to follow the pattern became throwing them under the bus?

Rouven wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

What's the average life span of a MMO?

Good question! Because you asked I revisited all MMOs I played so far and it turns out they are all still here, I for sure thought Meridian 59 was a goner - I guess it's actually older than UO?

WoW
Aion
LotRo
TSW
Wildstar
Eve
GW2
ArcheAge
SWToR

If I had to guess I would say all the ones that are not going to make it won't survive two years? Other than that what big MMO went kaputt? I believe there was a Star Wars one that apparently had really good housing iirc.

Are some on auto pilot that I am not aware off? I think GW is since there is GW2. Anything else?

The Star Wars MMORPG that was shut down was SWG (Star Wars Galaxies). Yes, it had great housing and crafting and it was a true sandbox, until SOE & Lucasarts wanted to cah in on WoW's success and brought the NGE, which drastically changed the game. It was shut down prior to the launch of SWTOR.

As for ESO... only time will tell.