Veteran ICP dungeon still too hard for random-setups! --- Please remove it from the dungeon finder!

Francescolg · June 2016

Well, what exactly did they nurf in ICP?

We tried today in a real random group and already the first boss ("kill the overfiend") was too hard to manage.

Compared to all other veteran dungeons, this one still seems to be over the top..

ZOS, PLEASE: REMOVE ICP / WTG from the random-group finder dungeon list! PLEASE!

OR: ZOS, check your internal dungeon-completition stats within the next 4 weeks and redo your work!

wayfarerx · June 2016

This is not going to be a very popular thread

One PUG run is not enough data to call for a nerf, maybe you got a crummy team. Keep at it and come back if you really can't make progress after multiple attempts.

Fignutz821 · June 2016

the dungeon is mostly mechanic based which is why many people fail it, watch some YouTube videos and play it with some guild mates and you should have an easier time

disintegr8 · June 2016

The OP did not ask for an immediate nerf, just to have them removed from random dungeon finder and a further review of how effective the nerfs in this patch are in lifting completion rates.

I know some of you keep saying its a learn to play issue but random groups do not stick together long enough to learn the mechanics. The OP may actually learn the mechanics but he/she is still only 1 of 4 in a PUG and if the others are not ready for it, failure is still the only result.

And before you say 'join a guild', not everyone can find a guild they can fit into and the only way they can get the group dungeons done is through group finder.

timidobserver · June 2016

Seriously? They are going to have to just make every mob instantly die as soon as you enter the instance for some people. Even then people would complain about being unable navigate their way to the end of the dungeon.

jzholloway · June 2016

vICP is probably the hardest dungeon in the game, next vWGT then vCOA. On PS4 we have yet to get this nerf (thankfully). Any dungeon in the group finder can be difficult because a lot of people queue for a job they are not suited for. This isn't the dungeons fault - nerfed or not - it is the person queuing fault.

Honestly, vICP isn't overly difficult - none of the dungeons are, even under geared, without a ton of CP. The key is at least one person knowing mechanics and all people being willing to listen.

I have completed vICP and vWGT with people who cannot beat Blood Spawn on timer - but, however, could follow directions when it came to mechanics. Communication in vICP above all us is key.

i get it - not everyone can find a guild (even though there are numerous websites, including this forum, that have a guilds posting recruitment listings - there are also facebook groups with the same), not everyone has friends who play ESO. I have been in both situations, yet I personally found wonderful guilds, and in turn, good friends.

It is a L2P issue... playing this game, like most mmo's is not just pushing buttons - it is knowing roles, it is knowing mechanics, it is being able to share those mechanics, etc. Yeah, not everyone is going to communicate, then you have to keep trying to find a group that will - its part of playing an mmo. Nerfing effects us all, you not being able to complete something effects only you, and honestly, it is your responsibility to fix it... not mine, not ZOS's, not anyone else, just you.

Syntse · June 2016

And here we see great example of peoples inability to read.

Like it was replied once already the OP would like the dungeons to be removed from the Group Finder random normal and veteran dungeon lists. The Group Finder that people use when they do not have guild where they could ask for group but they queue for PUG.

In case you run dungeons only with guild then take a moment and see what there is in the group finder. There is option to queue for random dungeon with some extra bonus rewards. Now some people might use it and might end up doing veteran ICP with total strangers.

I gotta agree that at least the vWGT and vICP should be removed from the list of the random dungeons in the finder.

jzholloway · June 2016

I can read, I just disagree with the assertion that the dungeons should be left out of random group finder. Why? Because they are too hard? In that case leave vCOA out as well. if it was because they are DLC, I could totally get behind that, but not because they are too hard. If someone doesn't have a guild or friends, the only way they are going to learn is to actually do the content. Avoiding the content because it is to hard for random groups - which it isn't as long as they actually communicate - is not the answer.

I have done both vICP and vWGT through queue with randoms - vWGT actually took the longest because some people just could not do the inhibitor fight, and completed them both - and I am far from a super duper awesome player. I have also done these dungeons with random guildmates who I had never played with before. The key in all of those was communication. I get it, some people don't want to communicate, just like some people wish to be carried, and some people want to slot as a tank yet carry double resto (yeah, exaggeration).

Just because something is hard doesn't mean it needs to be taken away. According to the OP they tried to kill the Overfiend, and that's it - how many times? Was this the first attempt at vICP through random dungeon queue? The indication is yes - so, after one attempt + how ever long they spent on the Overfiend, ZOS should take it out of the queue? Before the patch the complaint was that it was too hard... ZOS nerfed it, now it is still too hard... so I'm sure ZOS will nerf it again.

The OP would be singing a different tune if he got put into a random with 3 others who knew what they were doing. That is the biggest problem with this whole argument. I'd rather ZOS fix - if it is possible - the group finder versus taking content away. I'd support - at most - that for vICP, vWGT and maybe vCOA that if you get one of those, and have a *** experience and leave, there wont be a queue cool down. I'd never get behind removing them altogether though. To make it easy though, maybe ZOS should make Banished Cells and Wayrest the only two dungeons in the random queue.

SolarCat02 · June 2016

I would ask that the select-a-dungeon option for these two dungeons be fixed so you can queue with more than just yourself in your group before anything else be changed about these dumgeons in group finder.

Currently signing your group up for a random dungeon is the only way to even have a chance at these in group finder if you are not running solo.

Also, if you have someone to queue with who does not have the DLC, it won't give you these two dungeons. Not the ideal solution for someone who prefers to join PUGs by themselves, but at least there is a functioning workaround on the not-getting-them end.

Ommy71 · June 2016

L2Group.Find a guild and learn the mechanic.

jzholloway · June 2016

ommyboy wrote: »

L2Group.Find a guild and learn the mechanic.

At worst... watch a video then try to explain it in chat

kylewwefan · June 2016

Don't do it man. Just back out.

If the first trash mobs don't fall over and die within 15 seconds of the dungeon, the rest won't go well either.

Even if you know the "mechanics" and no one wants to communicate, just back out. It won't go well.

Set a limit. If more than 3 wipes on any boss, back out. The group is just not tough enough to handle it.

Brrrofski · June 2016

What's hard about the first boss? He hits hard, but if tank keeps aggro it isn't a problem

jzholloway · June 2016

Brrrofski wrote: »

What's hard about the first boss? He hits hard, but if tank keeps aggro it isn't a problem

umm... not having a tank that can keep aggor and interrupt

I never have that problem seeing as I'm a tank. Low DPS hurts though - I have ran it with low DPS and the dungeons drags (worse then normal), but it can still be done.

jzholloway · June 2016

kylewwefan wrote: »

Don't do it man. Just back out.

If the first trash mobs don't fall over and die within 15 seconds of the dungeon, the rest won't go well either.

Even if you know the "mechanics" and no one wants to communicate, just back out. It won't go well.

Set a limit. If more than 3 wipes on any boss, back out. The group is just not tough enough to handle it.

Problem with backing out with Dark Brotherhood is that it puts you on a queue / group finder cool down of I believe 15 min

kylewwefan · June 2016

jzholloway wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Don't do it man. Just back out.

If the first trash mobs don't fall over and die within 15 seconds of the dungeon, the rest won't go well either.

Even if you know the "mechanics" and no one wants to communicate, just back out. It won't go well.

Set a limit. If more than 3 wipes on any boss, back out. The group is just not tough enough to handle it.

Problem with backing out with Dark Brotherhood is that it puts you on a queue / group finder cool down of I believe 15 min

Hmm. Just have to cross that bridge when I get to it. PS4

Francescolg · June 2016

I will only discuss this topic with real casual players, who use the dungeon finder on a regular basis, who do not do pve with a guild, or always with the same people..

You might not believe it but in the last patch-notes they explicitly wrote:
"our data shows that not enough people do complete 'this' dungeons [...]".
ZOS had (!) to admit it, AFTER approx. 1 year, as soon as they introduced the random dungeon finder because, now, the fact that many players don't go to ICP/WGT disturbs them and the general functionality of the group finder. (this is what is new! Before the random option, nobody cared about it! You had WGT and ICP + all trials and that was fine.. But now they try to mix both parts of game, of which one is suits only the organized players..)

If they do not change again the difficulty, people won't care about any malus but they will simply drop ICP\WGT, as soon as they get it.

Second, spending hours trying pve content, without any little progression, with ppl you'll never see again, is not fun. This has nothing to do with L2P but with the casual character of random groups, which can consist of highly random and not-so-strong setups but also of very experienced people, who want to help others. They play just because of the purpose of using no ts, no strategy and no longer discussions but just to play a dungeon without too-strong elements/struggles.

Third, this post of me is just for the purpose of rescuing the nice concept of a random dungeon finder! (people are already switching back to zone chat and waiting times are going up again! Same thing as before the introduction of the random dungeon finder.. ). This is why I write it, people are already boycotting it!

ZOS, if you want everybody in the boat of the random dungeon finder and if you want everybody to take part, please, remove ICP/WTG from it, plain and simple!
So, specialised people can go on with their favorite, very special dungeons + trials, while the casual players can have their fun.

disintegr8 · June 2016

I do random dungeon finder every day on multiple characters (usually tanks) but have only chosen to enter ICP once. A group was stuck on the last boss and had lost their tank, so I went in, finished the job with them and got my bonus XP. I have never been in vICP.

I only do random in normal mode and any time I get put in an ICP or WGT group I leave - it is only a game and there are far more fun things to do in it. I have completed normal WGT only once and while it might be fine with a group you know and can talk to, it is no place for PUG's.

As for vet dungeons, I have had enough failures in vWGT and vCOA that I am in no hurry to enter them with random groups. My tanks can aggro the boss all they like but if the DD's cannot take the bosses down we fail.

KundaliniHero · June 2016

The reason these dungeons are difficult is because the people you are playing with suck, period end of story. I'll give you a hint it all boils down to mechanics and DPS - the more DPS you have the less mechanics weigh you down, this falls under knowing your class and practicing proper rotations to increase your output. Get in a good guild, talk to people, introduce yourself, learn the game and how to play your role and class effectively. If your DPS practice your rotations using the bloodspawn test until your time is under a minute or close to. I guarantee you'll find those dungeons to be not at all difficult with the right people and practice. And no, they shouldn't be removed from the Daily just because you cant deal, I still want my two gold keys.

Those dungeons aren't for casual players - its challenging content, you know a challenge. You can whine until your face turns blue but its people like you that are ruining this game, although in all fairness ZOS is doing a better job than you in that regard. If you are just a "casual" player there are other things you can "casually" do in game to keep entertained rather than "casually" coming on here to dumb the game down to your level. OR you can quit whining, rise to the challenge, git gud and "casually" bask in the fact that when you set your mind to something you can achieve it!

Luigi_Vampa · June 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

Seriously? They are going to have to just make every mob instantly die as soon as you enter the instance for some people. Even then people would complain about being unable navigate their way to the end of the dungeon.

Ugh, I couldn't find the dungeon chest and I fell off a ledge and died! This game is ***!

cdobratz · June 2016

~OMG ZOSE, lockpicking is too hard can u guyz nurf that pls~

Syntse · June 2016

KundaliniHero wrote: »

Those dungeons aren't for casual players - its challenging content, you know a challenge.

Do you mean like that the normal versions of ICP and WGT are for serious people and then veteran versions are for the competitive end game people?

And you are kinda proving the point here too. OP is asking that these dungeons should be removed from the random dungeon list on group finder. So if they are not for casual players then they really should not be in random dungeon list for group finder for casual players.

And for the record I have no issues with these dungeons I've run them with guild mates but I do understand the OP here, they are hard if you try to run them with random group and that they are part of the most random finder also where you cannot even choose if you would like to do it or not. Not to mention even if one would go on and work it through with random group it prolly would take like 2 hours which many people might not want to spend on some random dungeon run.

Brrrofski · June 2016

jzholloway wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

What's hard about the first boss? He hits hard, but if tank keeps aggro it isn't a problem

umm... not having a tank that can keep aggor and interrupt I never have that problem seeing as I'm a tank. Low DPS hurts though - I have ran it with low DPS and the dungeons drags (worse then normal), but it can still be done.

Well yeh, but someone shouldn't lie on group finder about being a tank

It is doable without a tank as well though to be fair. You need a healer if you don't have a tank then though.

I usually tank it on my sap tank without a healer. Seems to work best as I kick out good dps too.

ZOS_DaryaK · June 2016

We've removed a few posts that were not constructive.

Francescolg · June 2016

Nooo

Now, with the zorro-Z, I will get more attention with this thread, which I honestly did not want. haha

So, "Zorro" devs, please do something and have a closer look on your "endgame" content, which, imho, stays untouched by too many players! Don't you want, that 50-80% of "engame content" is achievable by more players? (because this would make the game much more interesting for a larger part of players..)

- Veteran Arenas, especially the single-player one in Wrothgar... as good as nobody plays them, except a tiny percentage, I'd say: less than 10%....! CHECK your numbers!
- Imperial City Prison / White Gold Tower, I noticed that this pledges are even set on weekends (on EU). Why only on weekends? What would happen to your "completition stats/numbers", if you put this pledges on working days? Wouldn't the number of ppl doing them drop significantly? Do you see my point?
- Craglorn / Trials - check the actual % of player base, how many ppl do this stuff regularly?
- How much % of 'what can be considered endgame' is really being played and completed, on a regular basis?
- How can you improve the veteran (single player) areas, especially vr14 drops, WHICH have not been updated to cp160 gear, etc.

Do not tweak pve-difficulty based up on judgement of "the best", or of the people who make it, but do tweak pve-difficulty based on real ingame-observations, have your operators "observe" what happens ingame/on live! Please, care less about the opinion of a "few"! Which is why we have so much content, which stays untouched by too many. Imo, this is no good for a free2play / buy2play game! You could make MUCH more money with inclusion, instead of exclusion.

I am not calling for everything for free, or been made super-easy, I call for "make it a little bit easier!" Be reasonable! If you make the top 10% of players 'sad', there might be another 30% of ESO players, who will be more than happy about such a change: Inclusion is the keyword, less "gated communities"!!!

lolo_01b16_ESO · June 2016

Francescolg wrote: »

We tried today in a real random group and already the first boss ("kill the overfiend") was too hard to manage.

Try to do less damage on the boss and the fight will be much easier. The more damage you do on the boss the faster new adds will spawn untill you get overwhelmed. You can do this fight by only using light attacks, taunt and some healing skills if you always focus on adds when they spawn.

Francescolg wrote: »

Imperial City Prison / White Gold Tower, I noticed that this pledges are even set on weekends (on EU). Why only on weekends? What would happen to your "completition stats/numbers", if you put this pledges on working days? Wouldn't the number of ppl doing them drop significantly? Do you see my point?

How often do you check which dungeon is the daily pledge? If you do it more than once every 10 weeks you'll notice that your statement is wrong.

Vaoh · June 2016

Well, here it is people.... this is what confuses me.....

With 4-man group dungeons: Normal mode should be for players who have close to or utterly no synergy and weak builds. Veteran mode should be for players who have decent synergy and stronger builds. Pretty simple. Not everyone should even play on the hardest difficulty.... since it should be hard -_-

However, nerfs to vICP and vWGT have caused ESO to no longer have any remotely difficult 4-man group dungeon left for strong players. ZOS is taking far too long to add new group dungeons as well.

If you have 200CP, Blue/Purple gear, and basic knowledge of dungeon mechanics with your semi-decent build, then these dungeons are all easy. (granted that usually 2 players need to slightly know what they're supposed to be doing).

Are you actually a strong player? Now all group dungeons will become an easy/boring walkthrough, burn and repeat, skip every mechanic, etc....

When we look at trials, the opposite is apparent.

A weak group will get slaughtered in Aetherian Archive by the Mage. Hel Ra Citadel will kill players once they are split into two groups of six. Normal Sanctum and Normal Maw of Lorkhaj will both require everyone to have strong characters, knowledge of mechanics, and honestly not suck. Meanwhile, Vet Maw of Lorkhaj and Vet Sanctum Ophidia are only completable by very strong players in a highly organized/knowledgeable groups.

Why are there no truly difficult group dungeons left, yet two trials at the Elite level are present?

Solution: Since you won't add a third difficulty or make these dungeons inherently tougher, give us new group dungeons which are as tough (difficulty-wise) as vMoL when on Vet! Thank you

Defilted · June 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

Seriously? They are going to have to just make every mob instantly die as soon as you enter the instance for some people. Even then people would complain about being unable navigate their way to the end of the dungeon.

ROFL!!!!

Woeler · June 2016

ommyboy wrote: »

L2Group.Find a guild and learn the mechanic.

Yep, typical l2p issue.

Mush55 · June 2016

I usually run these with the guild but the easiest run I have ever had in both ICP and WGT was through grp finder ended up in a grp with 3 Italian lads couldn't understand them half the time and we just blasted through Icp.

Sweetpea704 · June 2016

It is amazing to see everyone talk past each other and not get what the guy is saying. He isn't asking that the IC Dungeons be removed from group finder. He is asking that it be removed as a random dungeon in the finder. After this past week, I actually understand this sentiment. My buddies and I have gotten one of the IC randoms several times in the last two weeks. Now, it was fine for us, we are all on TS and at least one of us had done the dungeons before. But, twice one of us had to leave before we finished. That really stinks because we couldn't progress and just didn't get credit. Of course, the IC dungeons require communication and a good group. But even with a good group, they take much longer to complete than the other dungeons. I would say that a PUG group would have even more challenges than our group did completing the IC dungeons. Maybe the answer is to allow a box to check to exclude the IC Dungeons from the "random" selector. That way you can get a random that can be finished in around an hour and you don't ruin anything for the hard core players.