Domander wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

If I have to dodge roll 7 -8 times(which I will always have to do against competent players) I simply don't have time to deal any meaningful damage between rolls. It's clear you've never played stamina class at a high level against other high level players. All dodge does is give you that extra second or less to dodge and roll. Very different to wards plus annulment. This discussion is becoming tiresome, you clearly lack any real experience with things which you're debating. A static 100% mitigation shield based off of your main stat is a much more powerful mitigation tool than a one second PARTIAL immunity, that's an objective fact.

See what I did there.

haha, oh snap!

I agree though

Hardened ward on my sorc absorbs over 13k damage... what hits that hard? (non crit) what hits that hard and is instant like hardened ward?

You know why noone complains about any other class shield stacking? because their damage shields are balanced.

That said, I still think annulment should also scale with health, I think it should also work vs all damage.

You're joking right? I can't even count off-hand how many abilities can eat up a 13k damage shield with one hit, and if we include light/medium attack weaving than the list will be even longer.

Kinda vague

why don't you name some of those abilities that you can't, for some reason, count.

and I dare you to name one that is instant and spammable like hardened ward

although

One example is just a few posts before yours and it's called snipe, some of them even have CC effects! I don't want to give an incomplete list and I'm not going to be logging into the game for a while. Rest assured you will get a comprehensive list when I've got the time/feel like it. It has nothing to do with opposing views and everything to do with misinformation. I would also like to see some examples of how I've "attacked" anyone with opposing views. The devs need to know there are two sides to every argument and if someone doesn't show they disagree then this nonsense might actually happen.

[Moderator Note: Edited moderated quote]
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

Except dodge roll means you dodge most CC in the game, and the ones you can't, medium armor gives you more stam regenn and being a stam build gives you more base stam to CC break out.

Meanwhile, in order to use my 'OP shields' as a magicka build I still have to block, with my 9k stam.

Since your primary defense as a stam build already scales off stam, why shouldn't my primary defense as a mag build scale of mag? Instead of calling for nerfing all shields, why not call for all shields to scale off magicka? Purely rhetorical since I already know you just want to nerf sorcs.

Thank you @Teargrants for this, couldnt have said it better myself. I bolded the most logical part, imo:)

Domander wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Except dodge roll means you dodge most CC in the game, and the ones you can't, medium armor gives you more stam regenn and being a stam build gives you more base stam to CC break out.

Meanwhile, in order to use my 'OP shields' as a magicka build I still have to block, with my 9k stam.

Since your primary defense as a stam build already scales off stam, why shouldn't my primary defense as a mag build scale of mag? Instead of calling for nerfing all shields, why not call for all shields to scale off magicka? Purely rhetorical since I already know you just want to nerf sorcs.

Thank you @Teargrants for this, couldnt have said it better myself. I bolded the most logical part, imo:)

but.... dodge roll doesn't get stronger with more stamina..

If shields worked this way... there'd be no discussion here.

The main limiting factor for dodge rolling is time you can roll, for shields their value. So yes, dodge roll becomes more effective the longer you can roll, until it's really unlimited with whatever attacks you use meanwhile.

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Except dodge roll means you dodge most CC in the game, and the ones you can't, medium armor gives you more stam regenn and being a stam build gives you more base stam to CC break out.

Meanwhile, in order to use my 'OP shields' as a magicka build I still have to block, with my 9k stam.

Since your primary defense as a stam build already scales off stam, why shouldn't my primary defense as a mag build scale of mag? Instead of calling for nerfing all shields, why not call for all shields to scale off magicka? Purely rhetorical since I already know you just want to nerf sorcs.

Thank you @Teargrants for this, couldnt have said it better myself. I bolded the most logical part, imo:)

but.... dodge roll doesn't get stronger with more stamina..

If shields worked this way... there'd be no discussion here.

The main limiting factor for dodge rolling is time you can roll, for shields their value. So yes, dodge roll becomes more effective the longer you can roll, until it's really unlimited with whatever attacks you use meanwhile.

If the limiting factor for shields, is their value, and not how often they can be cast then...There are damage shields that scale with health, which determines their value. The templar and DK class shields scale with health and cost magicka. Game balance would suggest that all shields should scale with health, with the other limiting factor being how often they can be cast.

Domander wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Except dodge roll means you dodge most CC in the game, and the ones you can't, medium armor gives you more stam regenn and being a stam build gives you more base stam to CC break out.

Meanwhile, in order to use my 'OP shields' as a magicka build I still have to block, with my 9k stam.

Since your primary defense as a stam build already scales off stam, why shouldn't my primary defense as a mag build scale of mag? Instead of calling for nerfing all shields, why not call for all shields to scale off magicka? Purely rhetorical since I already know you just want to nerf sorcs.

Thank you @Teargrants for this, couldnt have said it better myself. I bolded the most logical part, imo:)

but.... dodge roll doesn't get stronger with more stamina..

If shields worked this way... there'd be no discussion here.

The main limiting factor for dodge rolling is time you can roll, for shields their value. So yes, dodge roll becomes more effective the longer you can roll, until it's really unlimited with whatever attacks you use meanwhile.

If the limiting factor for shields, is their value, and not how often they can be cast then...There are damage shields that scale with health, which determines their value. The templar and DK class shields scale with health and cost magicka. Game balance would suggest that all shields should scale with health, with the other limiting factor being how often they can be cast.

Yes, I just said that the limiting factor for shields is their value... but I do not see how "balance suggests" they should scale off max health? That would mean you increase the limiting factor of dodge rolls by increasing the resource you spend to use it, that happens to be the same resource your damage is scaling off as a stamina build.
So it is with Hardened Ward right now, if anything, "balance suggests" that other class shields should scale off health magicka as well.

edit... ^^

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Except dodge roll means you dodge most CC in the game, and the ones you can't, medium armor gives you more stam regenn and being a stam build gives you more base stam to CC break out.

Meanwhile, in order to use my 'OP shields' as a magicka build I still have to block, with my 9k stam.

Since your primary defense as a stam build already scales off stam, why shouldn't my primary defense as a mag build scale of mag? Instead of calling for nerfing all shields, why not call for all shields to scale off magicka? Purely rhetorical since I already know you just want to nerf sorcs.

Thank you @Teargrants for this, couldnt have said it better myself. I bolded the most logical part, imo:)

but.... dodge roll doesn't get stronger with more stamina..

If shields worked this way... there'd be no discussion here.

The main limiting factor for dodge rolling is time you can roll, for shields their value. So yes, dodge roll becomes more effective the longer you can roll, until it's really unlimited with whatever attacks you use meanwhile.

If the limiting factor for shields, is their value, and not how often they can be cast then...There are damage shields that scale with health, which determines their value. The templar and DK class shields scale with health and cost magicka. Game balance would suggest that all shields should scale with health, with the other limiting factor being how often they can be cast.

Yes, I just said that the limiting factor for shields is their value... but I do not see how "balance suggests" they should scale off max health? That would mean you increase the limiting factor of dodge rolls by increasing the resource you spend to use it, that happens to be the same resource your damage is scaling off as a stamina build.
So it is with Hardened Ward right now, if anything, "balance suggests" that other class shields should scale off health magicka as well.

edit... ^^

I play templar and i really believe if blazing Shield would scale of magicka it will become too strong.
But hey i can live with that:)

Domander wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Except dodge roll means you dodge most CC in the game, and the ones you can't, medium armor gives you more stam regenn and being a stam build gives you more base stam to CC break out.

Meanwhile, in order to use my 'OP shields' as a magicka build I still have to block, with my 9k stam.

Since your primary defense as a stam build already scales off stam, why shouldn't my primary defense as a mag build scale of mag? Instead of calling for nerfing all shields, why not call for all shields to scale off magicka? Purely rhetorical since I already know you just want to nerf sorcs.

Thank you @Teargrants for this, couldnt have said it better myself. I bolded the most logical part, imo:)

but.... dodge roll doesn't get stronger with more stamina..

If shields worked this way... there'd be no discussion here.

When we finally hit shields that can absorb 1 fragment 1 crushing shock and two light attacks so about 20k dmg (which happens all the time with dodgerolls - and smart ppl use abilities in between rolls) we can talk.

Edit: Dodgeroll in itself is infinetly more potent than shields are bc it has no limit on the amount of damage you can dodge. So basically dodgerolling is already evading 100% of the dmg some builds throw at you (yeah some abilities bypass dodge - too tricky to discuss now too) while you can ability cancel your rolls and still maintain dmg. The only limiting factor to dodge is your stam reg therefor. There is no possiblity for dodgeroll to scale in any form bc it already offers 100% mitigation to abilities that do not bypass it.
Shields are currently balanced to suffice against one opponent that knows what he´s doing while offering small windows for offensive actions. Against two (competent) people hitting you you can´t play offensive at all and will most likely die.

ZOS_ArtG wrote: »

Hi, all.

We have had to remove and several comment from this thread that were violating the Code of Conduct for rude and insulting and baiting comments. Additionally, we would like to point out that we appreciate feedback from all of our players, and we ask that others do not dissuade community members from sharing their feedback.

We would like to keep this thread active as we encourage lively discussions such as these but keep in mind our Code of Conduct when posting. Thank you for understanding.

I really should stop getting excited abotu ZOS response and hoping for actual statements...

I guess if you're signed in as ZOS staff, you don't have three buttons under a thread ("POST REPLY" "SAVE DRAFT" "PREVIEW"). You only got one: "STANDARD PVP FORUM POST". The result is the thing above

Itoq wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

The offensive increase from magicka is really quite negligible....the heaviest hitters focus on Spellpower/Weapon damage first, Magicka/Stamina are secondary

The offensive increase from having more magicka goes beyond simply the slight amount of damage that additional magicka adds on its own.

With more magicka comes a bigger magicka pool.

With a bigger magicka pool comes less need to commit set bonuses and enchants to magicka mangement.

With less need to commit set bonuses and enchants to magicka management comes the ability to commit more set bonuses to damage output (and/or other stuff like defensive bonuses and/or stam management.)

All of which nearly all of us know and I don't think we should pretend is not part of the issue.

Are you really freaking arguing that the benefit of a larger magicka pool is a lower need for resource management? Please tell me why I and the majority of other 1vXers out there are using drinks instead of food then?

So I have 28K Magicka and I could get probably 36K Magicka by focusing on Magicka and dropping regen. I'd lose about 1000 Magicka regen (and 500 stamina I by doing it too. My spells would hit slightly harder and my hardened ward would be slightly larger and I'd lose a spell cast every 2 seconds worth of regen and would die far quicker than with my regen build.

A lot of you guys making these comments either don't understand game mechanics very well or are looking at it from the perspective of another class that just doesn't understand anything about a Sorc. Stacking Magicka at the exclusion of all else is something a bad or a glass cannon would do.

Domander wrote: »

You can get past shields, but it requires that the player stacking them mess up. It's a matter of watching for it and then bursting.

Huh?

I wonder if you guys even realize how shields scaling off of health would impact Sorcs. I'd just switch a few thousand Magicka into Health and I would actually *Gain* shield strength since my healing ward would become much larger and my Hardened Ward would become slightly smaller. Meanwhile I'd become much more survivable from having a larger health pool and nothing else would change. I'd never run out of Magicka still and my spells would only hit for slightly less.

I think the real issue here is you guys have no understanding of game mechanics. You hear about some nerf idea from the echo chamber and it sounds clever so you repeat it ad infinitum everywhere without having a clue as to how it would impact the game, but since most sorcs oppose it you figure it must be a good thing right?

I'm tempted to make a scaling graph for people based on stat values how they actually impact abilities. It isn't nearly as much as you might think.

technohic wrote: »

pkb16_ESO2 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Except dodge roll means you dodge most CC in the game, and the ones you can't, medium armor gives you more stam regenn and being a stam build gives you more base stam to CC break out.

Meanwhile, in order to use my 'OP shields' as a magicka build I still have to block, with my 9k stam.

Since your primary defense as a stam build already scales off stam, why shouldn't my primary defense as a mag build scale of mag? Instead of calling for nerfing all shields, why not call for all shields to scale off magicka? Purely rhetorical since I already know you just want to nerf sorcs.

Thank you @Teargrants for this, couldnt have said it better myself. I bolded the most logical part, imo:)

but.... dodge roll doesn't get stronger with more stamina..

If shields worked this way... there'd be no discussion here.

The main limiting factor for dodge rolling is time you can roll, for shields their value. So yes, dodge roll becomes more effective the longer you can roll, until it's really unlimited with whatever attacks you use meanwhile.

If the limiting factor for shields, is their value, and not how often they can be cast then...There are damage shields that scale with health, which determines their value. The templar and DK class shields scale with health and cost magicka. Game balance would suggest that all shields should scale with health, with the other limiting factor being how often they can be cast.

Yes, I just said that the limiting factor for shields is their value... but I do not see how "balance suggests" they should scale off max health? That would mean you increase the limiting factor of dodge rolls by increasing the resource you spend to use it, that happens to be the same resource your damage is scaling off as a stamina build.
So it is with Hardened Ward right now, if anything, "balance suggests" that other class shields should scale off health magicka as well.

edit... ^^

I play templar and i really believe if blazing Shield would scale of magicka it will become too strong.
But hey i can live with that:)

The shield would hit like a truck and then you'd have 30k magicka templars with 15-20k BOLs behind those shields. At the same time, making them all scale off of health really just would favor stamina builds even moreso since they then would still be able to damage and roll while still having as good as shield as any magicka user of the same class. This is already the case with Templars at least.

Cannot keep doing the blanket fixes. The health nerf along with the 15% shield reduction for Cyrodiil were blanket fixes that actually hurt certain classes way more than the actual issues they sought to address. Shield reduction was basically to combat harness magicka and hardened ward being combined that was being complained about. Notice those are still just fine.

In my understanding the shield strength reduction was to bring shields in line with the reduced healing and damage in Cyrodiil .

Docmandu wrote: »

Since dodge roll seems "meh" and hardened ward OP, let's take away Hardened ward and replace it with a dodge roll sorc skill that uses magicka. Should make everybody happy, no?

Pretty please

Snit wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

There are sorcs with a lot of health, there are also stam sorcs. Hardened ward scaling with health would benefit both of these.

Yeah -- all seven of those guys would be thrilled

Stam Sorcs need help, but there isn't a lot of support for gutting magicka builds to provide it. Stam Builds don't have the mitigation/ health issues that light armor inflicts, and they're not wholly reliant on shields or avoidance for survival. So, this comment fits right in with your "dodge rolling doesn't get better with more stamina" comment. Both statements are technically true, but they ignore the larger context.

No Sorcerer is "wholly reliant" on shields. Unless they are terrible, I suppose.

In what world does a Sorc just stand there recasting shields?

Snit wrote: »

Of course, none of these solutions are easy, "which one button can I hit to just kill them" answers.

Unlike dodge rolling, where you just hit your one button that can't be dodged over and over again to kill them.

Unless you're a Sorc, because Curse probably isn't going to cut it alone. : P

Varicite wrote: »

No Sorcerer is "wholly reliant" on shields. Unless they are terrible, I suppose.

In what world does a Sorc just stand there recasting shields?

The ones that make excellent clips for my PvP videos of course!

I've said it before, scaling hardened ward off of health would be a gigantic buff to stam sorcs (infinite dodge rolling plus a 8-10k shield? It would be ridiculous in a regen build), and not that much of a Nerf to magicka sorcs.

Also, ward ally/healing ward scale off of spell damage and magicka, just like all staff skills. Ditto for harness magicka I think

Docmandu wrote: »

Since dodge roll seems "meh" and hardened ward OP, let's take away Hardened ward and replace it with a dodge roll sorc skill that uses magicka. Should make everybody happy, no?

If a dodge roll could heal me, or would allow me to deal damage while I dodge, YES !