talon_vib14_ESO wrote: »

If you want solo or just two player co-op gameplay why are you playing an mmo?

Because I don't want to play solo or co-op; it is irrelevant. I want to play an Elder Scrolls game, no matter the genre they make it in.

Elder Scrolls Online is coming up on its third month of being online. I see lots of threads of players being bored with VR content. Zenimax has already failed on their prediction to have new content patches about once every two weeks after release (they've only released one in ten weeks), and if their content patches are going to be stale grinds like Craglorn, Elder Scrolls will continue to see this sharp decline in subscribed players.

I hope Zenimax will turn it around. I've watched the progress of this game for over a year before release with high hopes. This game is not being up to par. Given Craglorn, the direction is not going towards success.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

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WhitePawPrints wrote: »

We don't have to play Craglorn; we don't even have to play the game. Thank you for that insightful life lesson. I'm glad I have toddlers on the forum to tell me these things. I must point out that this is feedback! If you don't like it, then no one is forcing you to read it or reply on it.

So because someone points out the very design of the game, you turn to calling him/her a toddler, as if their opinion is worthless and you are a god because you have played other TES games. I have news for you buddy, almost all of us have.

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I will give you a lesson in return: People who are passionate about something, it being a game, politics, religion or anything, will try to make their voice heard. The logic that toddlers have of "don't like it, don't look" does not apply to passionate people. Especially since that is not a valid point in ANY argument, EVER in the history of communication.

I have news for you, when you take an interest in something you will key in to a certain part, i.e. in religion you will follow one rather than them all. I would say the toddlers argument would be 'I want it all, everything for me.'

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Rather than getting upset about passionate Elder Scrolls fans leaving feedback, get happy for those who want to have Zenimax create something original. Not the same stale models that have been used since World of Warcraft, which is known to breed elitists. Your life will start to look brighter if you start thinking about the big picture of... any feedback you ever come across again.

Again, you seem to thing your better because you have played the same games as us all, It is you getting upset. The truth is many people will have different opinions. Craglorn is designed for group play. What's the problem with that? This is what mmo's are, there will be things for some and other things for others. Some people will like everything others will do only one thing.

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The problem is that most Elder Scrolls fans, the ones that are more likely to stay with the game after the next MMO release, do not want this style of gameplay. The majority of us are already upset over the phasing issues, that are STILL a problem, and Craglorn has the game going in a very undesirable direction.

Utter rubbish, as pointed out we are all TES fans. But actually it's more likely that mmo fans will stick around, what with this being an mmo, as is the nature of mmo's, very different to the standard TES game which is more complete and move on. There are issues such as Phasing but that's for another thread don't you think.

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In Skyrim I have chose not to be a cannibal because it is undesirable. I chose to defy Mehrune Dagon and spare the stupid Dunmer that was proud of his Mythic Dawn Heritage. Those are the type of choices that most can accept; only completionists will go back to complete the other options. Craglorn is an ENTIRE zone of content.

There will be many more ENTIRE zones, I don't see the problem with one for groups. Could it have been better? Of course. Should it have been better? No doubt. But there is no reason to be offensive to someone just for pointing out that in mmo's there are different people to please. Don't like it? Don't play mmo's, it's that simple.

Moderator note: Edited formatting for clarity.

Not sure where the argument is in this. All that was addressed had already been pointed out in the original post or is unrelated.

Is pointing out fundamental flaws in another posts and admittance of supremacy? No. I did not say anywhere in my posts that I think I'm better than anyone else. You speculated that was my intention. You said it, not me.

You may not like how I word my points, but that is not a valid point regarding the subject at hand. Again, using the same logic: Don't like it, don't read it.

PS: I don't think that's how "Quotes" are supposed to be used in forums.

Moderator note: Edited quoted material.

Tannakaobi wrote: »

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WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

guys u dont have to play craglorn, nobody is forcing it on you, Like pvp you dont have to do this either.

Get happy for the people that enjoy different things in the game, instead of being pissed, your life will start to look more lighter, if you start thinking about the greater picture here in this game.

We don't have to play Craglorn; we don't even have to play the game. Thank you for that insightful life lesson. I'm glad I have toddlers on the forum to tell me these things. I must point out that this is feedback! If you don't like it, then no one is forcing you to read it or reply on it.

So because someone points out the very design of the game, you turn to calling him/her a toddler, as if their opinion is worthless and you are a god because you have played other TES games. I have news for you buddy, almost all of us have.

I will give you a lesson in return: People who are passionate about something, it being a game, politics, religion or anything, will try to make their voice heard. The logic that toddlers have of "don't like it, don't look" does not apply to passionate people. Especially since that is not a valid point in ANY argument, EVER in the history of communication.

I have news for you, when you take an interest in something you will key in to a certain part, i.e. in religion you will follow one rather than them all. I would say the toddlers argument would be 'I want it all, everything for me.'

Rather than getting upset about passionate Elder Scrolls fans leaving feedback, get happy for those who want to have Zenimax create something original. Not the same stale models that have been used since World of Warcraft, which is known to breed elitists. Your life will start to look brighter if you start thinking about the big picture of... any feedback you ever come across again.

Again, you seem to thing your better because you have played the same games as us all, It is you getting upset. The truth is many people will have different opinions. Craglorn is designed for group play. What's the problem with that? This is what mmo's are, there will be things for some and other things for others. Some people will like everything others will do only one thing.

The problem is that most Elder Scrolls fans, the ones that are more likely to stay with the game after the next MMO release, do not want this style of gameplay. The majority of us are already upset over the phasing issues, that are STILL a problem, and Craglorn has the game going in a very undesirable direction.

Utter rubbish, as pointed out we are all TES fans. But actually it's more likely that mmo fans will stick around, what with this being an mmo, as is the nature of mmo's, very different to the standard TES game which is more complete and move on. There are issues such as Phasing but that's for another thread don't you think.

In Skyrim I have chose not to be a cannibal because it is undesirable. I chose to defy Mehrune Dagon and spare the stupid Dunmer that was proud of his Mythic Dawn Heritage. Those are the type of choices that most can accept; only completionists will go back to complete the other options. Craglorn is an ENTIRE zone of content.

There will be many more ENTIRE zones, I don't see the problem with one for groups. Could it have been better? Of course. Should it have been better? No doubt. But there is no reason to be offensive to someone just for pointing out that in mmo's there are different people to please. Don't like it? Don't play mmo's, it's that simple.

Not sure where the argument is in this. All that was addressed had already been pointed out in the original post or is unrelated.

Is pointing out fundamental flaws in another posts and admittance of supremacy? No. I did not say anywhere in my posts that I think I'm better than anyone else. You speculated that was my intention. You said it, not me.

You may not like how I word my points, but that is not a valid point regarding the subject at hand. Again, using the same logic: Don't like it, don't read it.

PS: I don't think that's how "Quotes" are supposed to be used in forums.

The point is only that you should not resort to name calling just because someone does not share your opinion. That's it! Keep it civil and people will respect you more...

Moderator note: Edited for baiting.

I apologize if it appeared as if I was name calling. It was not my intent.

Adramelach wrote: »

I think the whole point of this is not that there shouldn't be group content, but that there should be equivalent content that doesn't force that dynamic on players that would like to experience the Lore and Story behind the zone, but not using that playstyle.

It's fine to say "then don't do Craglorn" but two things come to mind, as I've also visited and found the same issues as OP:

First, some of us ES fans would really like to delve into the lore and story of Craglorn, and find it's sad and frustrating to be "locked out" of that content until and unless we scrape together a large group of people and get through it "playing their way". I would prefer either solo, or as OP mentioned, small groups of friends, already grouped, that can continue their own adventuring together without having to disband and attempt to join PUGs because their small trio or whatever can't get through it on their own.

Second, as far as the "normal" leveling "journey" goes, where else can you go? My understanding is that Vet play is loosely designed around one V level per zone, and there are 10 zones across the two "foreign" alliances. So... you do them, you get to V10, and then what? Where is the "non-forced-group" VR11-12 content?

I would agree with OP - Cyrodiil is fine, there's no "lore" or questing we have to knowingly miss or skip. If we're not into that play style, no big deal, we just avoid it. Sure there are a few PvE quests in there, but it's not a large zone of unique content, it's just local missions and such.

However, for Craglorn, it seems they've put in a lot of time and effort to creating an entire Zone around a large story regarding the Celestials, and I'd certainly enjoy getting to and being able to do that content. I just wish there were a way to do so, while playing as I like.

This is a better explanation than my own. Cyrodil is balanced for all players. If ES players don't want to risk being killed by enemy players, then they can easily avoid it by joining a low-population Campaign, or avoid Cyrodil all together. Craglorn is forcing large groups and raids, and that is the issue.

Inco wrote: »

I agree that Craglorn could have been done better. I've also stated in numerous threads that it should have been LOCKED OUT for VR8 and below. You can't get to the 2nd Alliance via Cadwell's quest line for VR5-VR10, but yet you can jump straight into Craglorn? What exactly was the reason for that?

No, I finished the entirety of Cadwell's chain at VR7, why should I be locked out of any content just because I did something faster than another player. And you can get to the 3rd Faction the moment you finish the 2nd, regardless if you are VR1/2/3/etc. Placing an arbitrary number on something is meaningless because some will always be better at a thing than others and why should they be punished for that.

Drakoleon wrote: »

Finished the entire campain at VR7?......How? with soul gems sneeking everything no dungeons?
Sorry but with my poor templar doing half of the damage that others do(that reflects to xp gaining) and leaving most of the puplic dungeons(those with the cross ) for later cause i was playing mostly solo i arrive at Craglorn almost VR11
I must have done something wrong i quess...or wtf?
edit
ps
From all quys i know who finished the entire quest line and without having all puplic dungeons done none off them was bellow VR10....

When the server comes back up I can certainly post a SS of my Character level and the achievement for finishing Cadwell's Almanac if you're skeptical. But, to sort of answer your question I did ONLY the main storyline in each Veteran zone while keeping myself no more than 3 Vet Ranks behind the content. To that end I do have 2 of the 2nd Faction's Zones entirely complete and I completed the storyline in Bangkorai (I'm AD) while at VR7.

Each Zone's main storyline only gives a player about 1/4th to 1/3rd Vet Rank so it's quite possible to finish it all WELL before VR10. Had I been a little braver (or better) at my character, I'm NB, and not kept the Zones no more than +3 my Rank then I could've finished the entire thing by VR6 easily. To punish players who complete things faster, or sooner, or lower level than others just because you or others don't like seeing "lowbies" in the zone is unreasonable.

Everyone needs to understand the difference between VR1 and VR10 (when Craglorn launched) wearing the same quality of improved gear for their level is less than 5%. It's basically no more than a fresh level cap with all blues and one wearing the first Tier of raid gear.

DeLindsay wrote: »

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Mallow wrote: »

talon_vib14_ESO wrote: »

If you want solo or just two player co-op gameplay why are you playing an mmo?

Why do people always say this? I've been playing MMOs for 10 years and NONE of them required group play. If I wanted to raid at end game, I did so. If I didn't, I still had plenty of content to do -- dailies, rep grinds, achieves, etc. ESO does not give solo or duo players an end game option.

You're kidding right? First off, most of Craglorn CAN be solo'd with the right build, especially those 6-7 packs in open world (excluding Trials obv). In just about EVERY MMO there are places in every single zone that require a small group to complete, whether it's a zone boss or an elite area. In fact in many MMO's there's open world RAID bosses. So for you to say ZoS is somehow forcing you to group for Craglorn when no other MMO does that is a flat out lie.

The right build being the Sorc or DK Fire staff builds? Those are likely to be nerfed soon, and "with the right build" is rather openly admitting that it is going against what Zenimax quoted during the promotion of this game: "play the way you want to". Not play only the powerful builds so you can solo content that is normally group only. Zenimax openly defies "builds" being in their game, which is why they're trying to balance is that no "build" is above the rest, instead that counter builds will be made allowing for an endless cycle of "build of the month" to replace set builds.

And of course every other MMO adds Raids and large group content; but I have very rarely seen entire PVE zones being designated to that. The few times that I have, it is generally very unpopular. No one wants to go back there because it's such a logistical hassle to form a group to go explore it again. I stated in my original post that part of the issue is that this is the FIRST content patch of Zenimax and adding such an unfavorable model in other MMO's and a death sentence to the ES crowd, is pulling the game in a very wrong direction.

Anyway, all the arguments countering this has already been addressed in the original post. Enough with the "tl;dr" responses. ts;dr

There is no issue with there being group content; Cyrodil, Public, Group Dungeons are all group content in which I have no problem with. The issue is with the direction Craglorn is taking Elder Scrolls Online; locking off entire zones from what would be considered the Elder Scrolls crowd. To clarify: these are the players that would typically install the "Survival" type mods, mods that make the game more realistic, more difficult, more challenging and more of a roleplaying game. We enjoy challenges but we enjoy lore, questing, roleplaying; not grinding, "PUG" groups, and trolling elitists. Whereas MMO players who've played the Elder Scrolls games would typically use exploits (Oghma Infinium in Skyrim anyone?), use cheating mods and follow builds posted online.

Why should Zenimax add more Lore, Questing and roleplaying options over grinding and builds? As stated in my original post, because Elder Scroll fans will stay with the game as it is the only Elder Scrolls game that we can play with friends, and that will likely stay the same even after Bethesda releases the next Elder Scrolls title. MMO players are far less likely to stay with the game after the next MMO release (especially if that MMO does not follow the stale models that Zenimax is doing with Craglorn, as stated in my original post).

We accept group content because, as stated in my original post, most of us play in SMALL groups. Two, three, sometimes four. Craglorn doesn't allow for those small groups to do many of the quests, fight against bosses and elites, and to finish the lore content.

We accept End-Game and Raid content, as stated in my original post through Cyrodil. It was obvious that this would always be catered toward the MMO crowd. It is balanced to having some PVE in the zone; but it is not a leveled zone whereas Craglorn is VR10 through VR12.

Less group content = ESO is the most antisocial MMO ever made.

Socializing in games has nothing to do with groups. If elitists neckbeards are too good for the noobs, then that's them being antisocial.

Forcing groups does NOT make a game social. I join lots of groups in the MMO's I've played, and it is very rare when I socialize with that group. I focus on on killing the World Boss or healing other players rather than saying "What's up?" or anything that would define the word "socializing". After the grind, most say "thanks" and simply leave the group. Those that say thanks are typically the more social ones.

The groups I'm social with are the small groups from my guilds, real friends or game friends. Only through a couple "PUG" forced groups in Cyrodil and Dolmens have I found those that are compatible with my gamestyle, but still our socializing is limited to we know someone that we can group with if it is needed somewhere else.

That brings the issue in my original post, again, that those that I have found to be compatible with have probably already gone through the zone. They rarely have the desire to go through the zone again as they get no or minimal benefit from it. Or if some are nice enough to help other groups go through it, the group is again too small forcing it to disband; as is the point I brought up in my original post.

Socializing comes from compatibility in gameplay style. MMO players may like grinding and raiding so they can socialize there. While other players socialize by roleplaying, crafting and enjoying the lore. Craglorn only makes it possible for one of these groups to socialize. So, in a sense, Craglorn is making the game anti-social.

Laura wrote: »

they didn't make a MULTIPLAYER GAME so that you could SOLO 100% of it! there NEEDS to be both!

As it has been stated repeatedly already in this thread, the issue is not of group content. Every single thing you stated in your post has already been addressed. Please read before posting so you're not spamming legitimate discussions.

They didn't create an official forum so that we all can have fan-gasms over how great the game is. You don't need to rage over feedback, that you didn't even read in the first place.