Our game to lose

Shiroro · June 2014

We're 2.5 months into the game and it's clear that the game needed another 6 months of polish before release. ZOS's management blew it with their poor decision and aren't providing the resources to their devs to let them fix the game.

Zenimax itself is huge and obviously won't go under. They're not going to turn a profit on the game without sinking a lot more money on devs though.

Apsalon · June 2014

GrimlockSaves wrote: »

"Inc."

This isn't Tamriel no matter how much you want to fantasize. This is the real world, and this is business.

Filthy rich stock holders want to be fed and won't settle for a return on investment. They will do anything to make more money.

If f2p would make more than subs, they'll do it. They're not going to decide to NOT make more money because they take pride in their work or because they are already rich.

Investors don't care about entertaining subscribers. They care about money and leave it up to the developers and the business to deliver. Businesses in these cases need to think quick, because investors don't stick around on a sinking ship.

True but Zenimax is privately owned. They do not have to cater to some ominous stockholders, because the company is in their own hands.

steveb16_ESO46 · June 2014

Zenimax will have investors. They want their money. They want lots of money.

ZeniMax Media had many different investors over the years. The investors are Providence Equity Partners, ProSiebenSat.1 Media, Robert A. Altman, Leslie Moonves, Cal Ripken, Jr, Harry E. Sloan, Jerry Bruckheimer, Ernest Del, J. Griffin Lesher, James Cedar, Cindy C. Tallent, Robert S. Trump, Michael J. Domingues, Christopher Weaver, SBS Broadcasting Europe, Ardsley Partners Fund, ZM Investment, The Gordon and Donva Crawford Trust(Gordon Crawford), the Schon Family Trust and ZeniMax private investor Tony Coelho.

GreySix · June 2014

No company survives by losing money, privately owned or otherwise.

Only the US Government appears to thrive on such idiocy.

Singular · June 2014

badmojo wrote: »

I see a lot of people implying that if this games subscribers dwindles down, ZOS is going out of business and the game is going free to play or will just shut down. This makes me laugh.
...
But, let's not kid ourselves. ZOS isn't some indie developer, who is relying on our subs to stay afloat
....
They're a filthy rich company, who has probably already gotten back most of their investment, simply from all the sales of this game.
...
My point is that even if ESO dwindled down to 1000 active players, they have no reason to go free to play, they have no reason to close up shop.

Ok, so we're good then. Whew! Thanks for the breath of sanity in these otherwise mad, mad forums.

So, it's my opinion that this community needs to start to recognize that this is now OUR game to lose.

Huh? You just said that we can't lose the game, b/c Zenmax is so incredibly wealthy.

This game now exists to entertain its subscribers.

Oh? Sweet! They are giving it to us then! Nice. No more sub - wooohooo! So Zenmax is just going to keep the game going b/c they're so nice?

Threatening to leave and bad mouthing the developers over every little bit of criticism is only going to hurt the thing you want to be entertained by.
...
From a business standpoint Zenimax doesn't care, they already made $60(or $80) off you.

Huh. No kidding. So when are they sending me a refund and a letter expressing their generosity?

Caroloces · June 2014

LOL.
Bought the game, got a 6-month sub, and glad I did. Love the game.
I truly feel I got my money's worth with the added entertainment of these forums. They're hilarious, and sometimes very helpful.
I appreciate and thank the posters who are sincere and constructive. You're the heart and soul of this game!
Now back to playing . . . !

badmojo · June 2014

I'm glad some people could appreciate what I was trying to say in this thread. I tend to exaggerate a bit when I tackle a subject like this, so please don't take the 1000 number too seriously. I'm not sure what the 'overhead' is they have to work around, but the point is that dwindling numbers doesn't always mean doom and gloom, especially when a big company like this owns the game. I believe they would be smart to keep the game going, even at a loss, if only to promote their brand. The players who do stick around would certainly buy the next ES game, and probably tell all their friends to.

ers101284b14_ESO · June 2014

badmojo wrote: »

I'm glad some people could appreciate what I was trying to say in this thread. I tend to exaggerate a bit when I tackle a subject like this, so please don't take the 1000 number too seriously. I'm not sure what the 'overhead' is they have to work around, but the point is that dwindling numbers doesn't always mean doom and gloom, especially when a big company like this owns the game. I believe they would be smart to keep the game going, even at a loss, if only to promote their brand. The players who do stick around would certainly buy the next ES game, and probably tell all their friends to.

Overhead means what they pay to keep the doors open. Most likely the game has enough subscribers to keep it going even though its not going to kill WoWs numbers. A successful MMO can keep running at around 500,000 subs. Even if they fall below that they will probably keep it on at least until after the console launches. They most likely made enough from sales to keep the game going even if their subs are less than what they want them to be at. So they would just bleed the money and see how console sells and subs are before figuring out whether to shut it down or not. Remember FF14 launched on PC, PS4 and PS3 had around 1.8 million units sold and is successful at around 600,000 subs.

justin903b14a_ESO · June 2014

Mablung wrote: »

Leesha wrote: »

The same kind of negativity has been spread on other game forums for years. These exact same cries of gloom and doom have been posted on the wow forums for... what.. 10 years now?

I believe these people are a special breed of gamers who set out to verbally destroy every game they don't have the skill to play the way it was intended. These are the same people who act like their mother was just murdered when they see patch notes stating their class/spec is getting adjusted down to be more in line with others. These are the people who cannot under any circumstances adjust to the changes because they need a big I WIN button to find anything fun. They are absolutely miserable (or that's what they display at least) and want to rally the masses because they feel their one small voice isn't being heard.

Pot meet kettle. Why is it ok to cleverly insult a group of players who view things differently? Who may not experience the game or the way it is played as you do? I am not arguing that balances/nerfs/fixes do not need to be applied but that it is not fair for them to be silenced no matter how loud and abrasive they may be. They still have a right to voice their unhappiness with the product they purchase.

The majority of the time they are expressing discontent with the developers, especially early on in release, yet we still see posts like this belittling what they feel and experience in the game.

Well the problem is if you praise the game your group the haters group come in and bashes and *** why can't the ones who love the game also use the forums to praise the game?

badmojo · June 2014

*sigh*

I know what overhead is. I was saying I don't know what amount theirs is.

badmojo · June 2014

justin903b14a_ESO wrote: »

Well the problem is if you praise the game your group the haters group come in and bashes and *** why can't the ones who love the game also use the forums to praise the game?

True, and it even goes beyond that. We can't constructively criticize this game without the discussion being overrun by hate posts. Look at any thread that talks about a glitch or bug, you get the same BS posts about them not being able to make a game, or can't balance, or can't fix anything right. Those points might be valid, but they don't belong in EVERY thread about anything. It just gets annoying to read, and hurts the community and game because less people bother to come here and give feedback.

ers101284b14_ESO · June 2014

badmojo wrote: »

*sigh*

I know what overhead is. I was saying I don't know what amount theirs is.

Oh my apologies then.

TheMagicalSpiff · June 2014

sajackson wrote: »

There seems to be an assumption in the community that if they say f2p enough on the forums it will happen.

Fact is to go f2p would mean operating the game at a huge loss. In all likelihood they would just close it down and cut their losses.

I don't believe we're even remotely near to that happening though.

Quoted for truth. For one, as he says, there would be huge losses in going F2P, and secondly, I don't think that we're close to that happening. Not by a long shot. All the naysayers are just so immensely loud. That's why we that enjoy the game have to speak up.

Rodoscrolls · June 2014

the whole free to play versus pay to play cracks me up, its so redundant.
this is a fun game, if its pay to play im paying and playing, if it goes free to play,well im still playing....don't see the issue really

Morticielle · June 2014

Mablung wrote: »

For everyone who thinks that F2P is in the near future (within 6mos) here is why it will not happen.
Game is being developed for console.

Game is still in beta

No mention of micro transactions as part of the future of ESO

Bethesda - The sugar daddy for ZOS

Nothing to sell in an ingame store - game needs serious itemization overhaul and cosmetic features.

ad 1) Possible release of console version postponed for 6 months or more. No date given so far. For me it looks like they have got cold feet and wait how PC version is doing in upcoming months before finishing version for consoles.

ad 2) Yes, game is actually in early beta. Problem is that it is still in beta even so it has been released! Exactly that is, why TESO is doing not to well.

ad 3) TRION didn't mention future F2P untill 2 months of going F2P.

ad 4) A sugar daddy is usually nice as long as he gets something in return. The return with TESO is increasingly decreasing. Sugar Daddy will soon get frustrated.

ad 5) On this one I agree with you.

All in all your points don't show, why F2P could not happen in less then 6 months. But going F2P with a game broken in many places like TESO is actually would be a great mistake. Zenimax would have to debug many things before going F2P.

But I think Zenimax give atm no thoughts to F2P because they are to busy ruining what is left of TESO by nerfing classes, bringing new bugs into the game and ignoring older bugs, which are around since early beta. I figure they are to arrogant to see, that they are creating an even greater mess by doing so.

We'll see ...

Morticielle · June 2014

GreySix wrote: »

No company survives by losing money, privately owned or otherwise.

Only the US Government appears to thrive on such idiocy.

Rest assured the US government is not the only government to do so. In 2013 Germany gave 170 billion Euros to stabilize foreign banks and states without the slightest chance to ever see something in return.

Singular · June 2014

Morticielle wrote: »

ad 4) A sugar daddy is usually nice as long as he gets something in return. The return with TESO is increasingly decreasing. Sugar Daddy will soon get frustrated.

The only way to keep the money flowing from a sugar daddy is to never give in. "Baby...I want to, I do, but I have a headache..." a little bit of leg, a bit of skin, they want more and more and more.

Hunters like to hunt, not catch.

Ohioastro · June 2014

badmojo wrote: »

justin903b14a_ESO wrote: »

Well the problem is if you praise the game your group the haters group come in and bashes and *** why can't the ones who love the game also use the forums to praise the game?

True, and it even goes beyond that. We can't constructively criticize this game without the discussion being overrun by hate posts. Look at any thread that talks about a glitch or bug, you get the same BS posts about them not being able to make a game, or can't balance, or can't fix anything right. Those points might be valid, but they don't belong in EVERY thread about anything. It just gets annoying to read, and hurts the community and game because less people bother to come here and give feedback.

There is a difference between constructive and destructive criticism. A lot of the most vocal critics, at this point, do not want to improve the game. They want it to fail so that they can be proven correct, or they enjoy taunting other people. (Many internet trolls don't actually care about whatever they're saying - they just enjoy getting other people upset.)

It's pretty easy at this point to tell which is which - the ones with hundreds of repetitive attack posts are not "trying to improve the game".

Haxer · June 2014

badmojo wrote: »

I see a lot of people implying that if this games subscribers dwindles down, ZOS is going out of business and the game is going free to play or will just shut down. This makes me laugh.

Obviously ZOS & their parent company ZeniMax Media want this game to do well, they want to sell millions of copies and have millions of subs paying every month. They've probably put down a lot of money to develop this game, and are spending countless amounts of money to keep developing and maintaining it.

But, let's not kid ourselves. ZOS isn't some indie developer, who is relying on our subs to stay afloat. I honestly believe they could turn around and shut down ESO tomorrow, and ZeniMax Media would be fine. They're a filthy rich company, who has probably already gotten back most of their investment, simply from all the sales of this game. Not to mention, the console version hasn't even released yet, there's even more money in the bank for them, a lot of money, after all console gaming is a bigger money maker than PC gaming, let's not forget that.

My point is that even if ESO dwindled down to 1000 active players, they have no reason to go free to play, they have no reason to close up shop. They could simply scale back their servers to accommodate the lesser demand, and they would still be making money off those 1000 people. That's the thing with online games, the players cost the money, if there are fewer players, the servers will cost less.

So, it's my opinion that this community needs to start to recognize that this is now OUR game to lose. This game now exists to entertain its subscribers. Threatening to leave and bad mouthing the developers over every little bit of criticism is only going to hurt the thing you want to be entertained by.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be giving our feedback, & criticizing faults in the game. I'm saying that when you attempt to hurt Zenimax by throwing a tantrum, taking your ball and going home, you're actually hurting the community(the other players). From a business standpoint Zenimax doesn't care, they already made $60(or $80) off you.

I have a lot of respect for this post, and agree with you for the most part. However, what I don't agree with: If ESO could be profitable with 1000 subs by scaling back, then every MMO in history that lost all it's players would not be free-to-play currently. So history would say you are very wrong there.

Secondly, while it is somewhat "our game to lose", I would say that due to the lack of communication from ZoS, I have to assume that a lot of issues aren't going to be addressed anytime soon. I'm pretty sure the dev's don't even play this game. 2 years before we get housing? How long before a guild can actually meet up in-game? No. You don't charge $15/mo for that.

I un-subbed not because I want this game to lose, or want to hurt the community. I un-subbed because I want this game to succeed, and it won't unless they change things and start communicating with the community, and they have shown they won't do any of that if players keep paying them.

Bardidar · June 2014

The majority of my friends talked horribly on ESO just after the beta. Little did they know the beta was nothing compared to the game. I love it. Plan to stay subbed forever. Playing on my lame laptop until it launches on Xbox One

. Sucks the latest update was the game being pushed. But it happens for a reason. And they are giving us a transfer of our characters and all to console as well as the opportunity to purchase the game for $20 digitally (totally still getting physical imperial edition).

A few of those friends have now seen it. Some on PC with me now until console launch. Others waiting. Others trying to say it will go free to play. Which I doubt will ever happen. The only slight chance it could happen is if they do not stay consistent with updates and content. Which they have already shown they are pushing out right on schedule with the planned update u lever 4 to 6 weeks.

The way I see it, and what I tell those haters, is that this game is going to be more massive than a lot of people realize. Wold of war craft created a game and built content for all of these years. The elder scrolls series released amazing games and my personal favorite series the last 20 years. Now they are going to spit it all out at us in this amazing game. I adore it and let haters hate, they are the ones missing out in the end

GreySix · June 2014

Most folks who unsubscribe likely don't even know this forum exists, so we've no way of knowing why they do.

Nor does ZOS ask folks why they unsubscribe when they do so, so even ZOS doesn't know why they do.

Gedalya · June 2014

People, please, don't feed the trolls.

Soloeus · June 2014

badmojo wrote: »

I see a lot of people implying that if this games subscribers dwindles down, ZOS is going out of business and the game is going free to play or will just shut down. This makes me laugh.

Obviously ZOS & their parent company ZeniMax Media want this game to do well, they want to sell millions of copies and have millions of subs paying every month. They've probably put down a lot of money to develop this game, and are spending countless amounts of money to keep developing and maintaining it.

But, let's not kid ourselves. ZOS isn't some indie developer, who is relying on our subs to stay afloat. I honestly believe they could turn around and shut down ESO tomorrow, and ZeniMax Media would be fine. They're a filthy rich company, who has probably already gotten back most of their investment, simply from all the sales of this game. Not to mention, the console version hasn't even released yet, there's even more money in the bank for them, a lot of money, after all console gaming is a bigger money maker than PC gaming, let's not forget that.

My point is that even if ESO dwindled down to 1000 active players, they have no reason to go free to play, they have no reason to close up shop. They could simply scale back their servers to accommodate the lesser demand, and they would still be making money off those 1000 people. That's the thing with online games, the players cost the money, if there are fewer players, the servers will cost less.

So, it's my opinion that this community needs to start to recognize that this is now OUR game to lose. This game now exists to entertain its subscribers. Threatening to leave and bad mouthing the developers over every little bit of criticism is only going to hurt the thing you want to be entertained by.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be giving our feedback, & criticizing faults in the game. I'm saying that when you attempt to hurt Zenimax by throwing a tantrum, taking your ball and going home, you're actually hurting the community(the other players). From a business standpoint Zenimax doesn't care, they already made $60(or $80) off you.

Oh please, Zenimax has money to waste and the Dev-Pets, ER are happy.