Trash mobs at VET level, how much more powerfull are they compared to low level?

Nicky_W · June 2014

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Because it is now unbalanced. But all you L2P e-peeners have won. This is the game now and in the future.

The only question is what impact if any does that have on its future.

Silly me, I must have missed the part where we were discussing this.
I thought this thread was about their difficulty.
I also resent the remark that I'm a 'L2P e-peener'
Very ignorant, and immature.

nerevarine1138 · June 2014

Kalman wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

You must not have encountered any quests in the VR zones where the NPC still thinks you don't have a soul. There is one such quest in the Veteran versions of Stormhaven.

I have, and I chalk it up to ZOS being too lazy to change the dialog for Vet. You got your soul back at the end of main quest there is no question about that.

Does no one read the dialogue except when it helps them find "plot holes" in the story?

Cadwell explains this before you start VR content. If you didn't pay attention, that's your problem.

steveb16_ESO46 · June 2014

phunkeymonkehb16_ESO wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Because it is now unbalanced. But all you L2P e-peeners have won. This is the game now and in the future.

The only question is what impact if any does that have on its future.

Silly me, I must have missed the part where we were discussing this.
I thought this thread was about their difficulty.
I also resent the remark that I'm a 'L2P e-peener'
Very ignorant, and immature.

You labelled yourself with all your faceroll rhetoric. I just read it.

Soloeus · June 2014

Vet mobs are very different, because they wander in groups of 3+, kill you in 3 hits and can absorb your entire mana bar in damage.

You have to change everything about how you play just to survive and even minor battles "feel like big ones" even though you don't really get good loot. You get the same trash loot, just Vet Trash instead.

Nicky_W · June 2014

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

You labelled yourself with all your faceroll rhetoric. I just read it.

I'm not about to start an argument with someone on the internet. I don't have the time or the need to justify my gameplay to anyone.

I simply stated that I enjoyed the extra challenge. At no time did I criticise anyone. In fact I actually referred to myself as a noob.

Good Day.

Lord_Hev · June 2014

phunkeymonkehb16_ESO wrote: »

So you are saying we should be able to faceroll all veteran content?

Yes.

Bandit no-lifes will always be utterly irrelevant. There is no logical reasoning for them to suddenly be 2x more challenging then elite Dremora mixed tactics units from Coldharbour. And even with the "logic" of vertical leveling, it still does not make sense, because the jump from lvl 49 to VR 1 is massive. So you go from balanced challenge in Lvl 49, to massive tedious hit-sponges in VR. Because suddenly every enemy now has 2,000 health points AND they just-so-happen to hit harder than a truck.

This is not difficulty. This is fake. It's lazy design. And, it shows just how imbalanced a lot of the "playstyles" are. Mages with light armor are generally going to have an easier time then every other style. This leads to cookie-cutter builds, which leads to class nerfs.

VR trash needs to be nerfed, like, with a vengeance.

In all seriousness, I'd start by making VR 1 - 2 trash slightly weaker than the Lvl 49 Dremora mobs in Coldharbour. Then, giving slight DPS increases to them as VR goes up, while keeping their health mostly the same. Maybe give them an extra 500 health at VR 5+, along with a 15% damage increase overall or something along those lines.

As of now, bandit no-life VR 1 does like 35% more damage than a lvl 49 Dremora... Compared to Lvl 49 Dremora only doing 10% more damage than a lvl 44 Dremora.

xaraan · June 2014

I'm sure some classes might have a different experience (I have using different classes b/c of balance) but I'm a V12 NB, I have builds for stamina dps, magicka dps, tanking and healing and do them all pretty well. The trash pulls in vet zones are ridiculously out of balance. I can go back to a early vet zone (like 5 or 6) as a V12 and still have trouble with three pulls (depending on what the pull is composed of).

Yes, if you encounter a three pull, you have to handle it perfectly (almost more so than a boss fight) or you will die (like I said, maybe not if you have one of those perfect storm OP DK builds and just drop standard on every pull) and often, even if I handle it perfectly there is still a chance I die. I don't expect it to be a cake walk, but there should be better middle ground there. Trash should be trash, unless you totally screw up or goof around, you should be able to handle them.

Part of the issue is the power increase - they have twice your health. IMO if they are same level, they should have roughly the same health as a character of your level if they put all points into health. Same for power output, their attacks will do twice the damage of yours, with light attacks often doing more damage than actual weapon or class powers. It's a lazy way of increasing difficulty in video games that too many devs use. They probably didn't have time to do anything fancier since our vet areas are just the other rehashed low level areas. IMO they should have left their power equal to character's power and maybe added another mob to a group or something.

Oh, and when you get to Craglorn, watch out for the archers lol. They can one shot you with whatever ultimate they do. If you hear them say "taking aim" run over and interrupt them. I don't care what else is going on in the fight, even if it's a boss fight, take out that archer. You can kill gods, fight giant monsters with all these special powers, etc. but one of those archers will drop you easy.

crislevin · June 2014

Craglorn is a crap house, all mobs have 6+ members with v11 healers and archers. They designed it so grouping is required for most people. and thats a dumb decision IMO.

Worstluck · June 2014

It's just unbalanced. It got much worse in the 1.1.2 patch. You have random bandits or skeletons that do 700 dps and then you get to the boss and they go down like a sack of potatoes. Honestly, when I step into a VR7+ zone, it feels like I am playing Oblivion, with the same bandits wearing Daedric armor. So after all these years, they still didn't learn their lesson. Granted, the normal NPC's are MUCH easier in Craglorn, which, in itself, makes absolutely no sense from a progression standpoint.

Leesha · June 2014

In comparison, 3-5 vet enemies will almost definitely decimate you depending on your abilities. There is very little room for error. Without Volcanic Rune, I was dying on every pull of 3.

Since the last patch, there has been ability delay and weapon attacks are not firing 40% of the time. This would be no problem in pre vet areas but now, it means higher repair bills.

Magdalina · June 2014

I think vet trash is ridiculous. Imo, it feels at least 10 times more powerful than non-vet felt at corresponding level. Healers can suddenly heal for infinite amounts instantly, some puny goblin shamans can suddenly take like 70% of health in one hit(yes, heavy attack. Yes, avoidable. No, not always visible, especially when trying to avoid attacks by the other 2 goblins), trash Harvesters oneshoot you and they still give you same 3 gold per mob or so. I used to find it a fun challenge, but by now I'm pretty fed up with all of it.

The best example of imbalance there is quest/caves/even some world bosses being much easier than TRASH. Which is just stupid.

That being said, don't let us discourage you;) See for yourself. Maybe you'll like it, or maybe they'll have it corrected by the time you get there.

Soloeus · June 2014

If 2 AI healers/medics/menders are in the same mob of 3, they can take a VERY long time to kill because each healer will keep healing the other to full with like 500000 heals per second.

devincutlerb14_ESO · June 2014

gronbek wrote: »

Isn't it a little strange though, here you are maxed experience full bar of skills and a ultimate fighting the same looking crabs/npc as at low level and now at VET they suddenly are a problem.
I find it destroys immersion a little. Should we not "own" trash mobs and be challenged against larger monsters and special NPC?

It was already destroyed when you saw level 25 mudcrabs running around and level 40 skeevers. Why is it that all the low level bandits hang out in low level areas and the high level ones in the high level areas? Immersion would throw them all together wouldn't it?

Morrowind (ES game) did this properly by not having much scaling or levelled areas at all (this side of the ghost fence). But you simply cannot do that in an MMO. You effectively have to have Oblivion type scaling of foes.

Look, if you want to be Mr. Fancypants cleaving through millions you can simply return to Cold Harbour as a V8 or your earlier home faction zones as a V1 and have at those low level foes. You WILL feel like a badass. You may find it somewhat boring eventually, but if that tickles your pickle, then by all means no one is stopping you.

If the only thing that challenged you at VR level were larger monsters and special NPCs, then you would have to either be presented with a zone full of nothing but those (a little immersion breaking don't you think?) or a zone where the only challenge is at the end of quests and dungeons (a little boring don't you think?).

nerevarine1138 · June 2014

devincutlerb14_ESO wrote: »

If the only thing that challenged you at VR level were larger monsters and special NPCs, then you would have to either be presented with a zone full of nothing but those (a little immersion breaking don't you think?) or a zone where the only challenge is at the end of quests and dungeons (a little boring don't you think?).

This. This this this.

I don't understand what people want from VR if they don't want a bit of a challenge from their fights. If you could steamroll every non-boss enemy, the game would be boring.

Swordguy · June 2014

Elder scrolls Games are always a little bit challenging at the start, and by the time you are level 30, you are a walking machine of pain, one shotting trash and giving bosses a run for their money (as long as your companion tanks while you heal in a corner).

ESO devs chose to follow the opposite philosophy, and in turn you feel like a god at the start, and a gimp by endgame. apparently this makes sense, so don't question it.

Alphashado · June 2014

One missed block or one poorly timed dodge roll and you can and will get one or two shotted. Depending on your class and build, you may have to respec several times and change weapons a few times before you find something you are comfortable with.

Some people find this edge of your seat trash mob content fun and entertaining. Some find it ridiculously hard. Some (and I fall into this catagory) find it fun at first, but grows old fast.

Everyone is different. In the end, you will just have to judge for yourself.

Mablung · June 2014

The level next to Vet ranked mobs should have wording saying that they are Insanely Powerful. Should show up when you have them targeted.

Ragefist · June 2014

Veteran mobs are not powerful or hard at all, they are just about right to provide a challenge without too much sweat. Problem is that many players have been lulled to afk apathy in mmos and even a bit of effort seems outrageous to them

Alphashado · June 2014

One thing is certain. I have never seen an MMO force the entire community to do something in which they were so divided.

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2014

gronbek wrote: »

Isn't it a little strange though, here you are maxed experience full bar of skills and a ultimate fighting the same looking crabs/npc as at low level and now at VET they suddenly are a problem.
I find it destroys immersion a little. Should we not "own" trash mobs and be challenged against larger monsters and special NPC?

Actually i find that ironic... stated like that the Current Veteran system is much more realistic than the normal levels...

LariahHunding · June 2014

Over 9000% and they hit for the force of 10,000 suns.

Swordguy · June 2014

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

gronbek wrote: »

Isn't it a little strange though, here you are maxed experience full bar of skills and a ultimate fighting the same looking crabs/npc as at low level and now at VET they suddenly are a problem.
I find it destroys immersion a little. Should we not "own" trash mobs and be challenged against larger monsters and special NPC?

Actually i find that ironic... stated like that the Current Veteran system is much more realistic than the normal levels...

the vet levels were a lazy way to extend the amount of time it took to level to end game before new content arrived... It only makes sense that laziness begets more laziness, and hence the sudden exponential increase in difficulty, with no fixes since 2013 beta.

Mortosk · June 2014

gronbek wrote: »

Hello,

How are vet mobs compared to trash mobs? I mean, at low level lets say 20 I have no problem with a group of 3-5 same level mobs and I play melee stamina build.

But how is it at vet level, what I have heard is that the same type of group even looks visually the same suddenly owns you completely. Is that true?

Pretty sure they just multiplied by Graham's Number.

Swordguy · June 2014

Mortosk wrote: »

gronbek wrote: »

Hello,

How are vet mobs compared to trash mobs? I mean, at low level lets say 20 I have no problem with a group of 3-5 same level mobs and I play melee stamina build.

But how is it at vet level, what I have heard is that the same type of group even looks visually the same suddenly owns you completely. Is that true?

Pretty sure they just multiplied by Graham's Number.

considering Elder scrolls is a fictional universe, It is possible that each trash-mob in VR is dense enough (not referring to 2005-ish pixels or polygons) to house a fraction of Graham's number.

Leesha · June 2014

Ragefist wrote: »

Veteran mobs are not powerful or hard at all, they are just about right to provide a challenge without too much sweat. Problem is that many players have been lulled to afk apathy in mmos and even a bit of effort seems outrageous to them

Untrue to a point. Lots of people crave a challenge but when met with such a huge increase in difficulty with little to no warning, it can be a bit daunting.

They may be just about right to provide a challenge without too much sweat to some but others see death after death after death for various reasons. I personally do ok as a sorc but there are still times where I die to spells the NPC didn't even finish casting (or cast in the opposite direction) or because my weapon swap took 5 tries before it actually worked. That's a whole different issue though.

Blud · June 2014

gronbek wrote: »

Isn't it a little strange though, here you are maxed experience full bar of skills and a ultimate fighting the same looking crabs/npc as at low level and now at VET they suddenly are a problem.
I find it destroys immersion a little. Should we not "own" trash mobs and be challenged against larger monsters and special NPC?

I've accidently aoe aggroed some crabs and had to run away. I thought that was hilarious after defeating Molag Bal .. running away from a couple of mudcrabs.

Alphashado · June 2014

I have already lost many of my friends because of VR content. For one reason or another. Now I see another one has been inactive for 5 days and one that I talked to tonight said that she doesn't even want to play her VR character anymore and is playing an alt. I understand that alot of people like it. But soo many don't. VR content is killing this game.

Dayv · June 2014

I'm trying so hard to look forward to what this game will become but it feels like it has already been cornered by the elitists.

mobihci · June 2014

it is possible to run into some problems in the veteran content that you dont in 1-50 eg-

yesterday i was running through glenumbra at v1 level and when i did the red rook bandits (cant remember the name of the quest) where you have to clear some traps then set some thing on fire.

i run over press the 'e' to clear the trap- it blows up in my face even though i am not moving.. no problem this happens, though now it takes approx 1300 health.

i recover quickly (back to 2100 health), go to the next trap, clear it without it blowing up. then an archer and melee character see me and attack. i try to chain the archer to me, but instead get the other guy, kill him within 5 secs, i see the red ring on the ground (archer volley which can hit for 1300+ damage over its full period). i am down to 1600 health after the melee hits so go to roll.

before the roll animates, a new trap shows up on the ground and blows up right then and there as another player runs by me (phasing issue? dont know). i get stuck and volley kills within 3 secs of so.

probably the best death report i have seen

volley for 1380 or so + trap for 1800+!! it also listed some of the previous melee attacks which were about 800 in total. dont ask me why the trap did more than 1800 damage, but it is obvious that some of the damage is normally mitigated by resists of some sort, but not in this case.

these little quirks dont really mean much in lower levels, but they become more of a problem.

Esha76 · June 2014

My main is a VR10 NB with her Tamriel Hero title, and completed Cadwell’s. She’s essentially done everything pre-Crag. Level 1 – VR7 was a blast. At no point did I ever feel like I “face-rolled” everything (a term all the kiddies love to over use today), but I never got really hung up or had progress blocked by trash either. At level 48 she took down Molag Bal in the first try. In VR7 Rivenspire she was killed by three skeevers. I could give you many more examples, but this will be too long as it is. There is not a chance on this ball of unholy dirt that VR trash mobs are balanced and appropriate. VR7 to 10 was such an irritating chore of a death-rez grind I simply won’t do it again as it is now. I have a VR4 sorc who’s just going to sit until they change this stuff, if they change this stuff. There’s a very big difference between challenging “veteran”” difficulty content, and just severely irritating, overly frustrating, and punishing not-fun-to-play content.

And for all of those who feel entitled to scold the majority of us who do not like VR as it is now, I erect the spine of stfu. Seriously, take your elitist attitudes, L2P, & noob insults elsewhere. No one wants to hear your lectures on what VR content “should be”, and especially not how you think we “should” feel about it. You’re all “Back in my day we played EQ1 with pool sticks shoved in various orifices and we liked it! We’re real MMO players! Not like you QQ’ers today who feel you should steam roll through everything and be handed a purple hat for it.” I don’t know if EQ1 is still up and running, but I know you can still buy pool sticks. So don’t fret too much, you can still mostly re-live the good old days.