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Trash mobs at VET level, how much more powerfull are they compared to low level?
gronbek
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Hello,
How are vet mobs compared to trash mobs? I mean, at low level lets say 20 I have no problem with a group of 3-5 same level mobs and I play melee stamina build.
But how is it at vet level, what I have heard is that the same type of group even looks visually the same suddenly owns you completely. Is that true?
How are vet mobs compared to trash mobs? I mean, at low level lets say 20 I have no problem with a group of 3-5 same level mobs and I play melee stamina build.
But how is it at vet level, what I have heard is that the same type of group even looks visually the same suddenly owns you completely. Is that true?
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You just have less room for error at veteran level. The complaints (as far as I can tell) come from people who were standing in the fire all the way through VR1 and are suddenly surprised that fire burns.
However, due to the nature of power attacks, this generally means that 3 mobs is the safest number to take on at a time. My Nightblade has handled 4-5, but without my ultimate already being up at the start of the fight, I don't know that it would be possible. It certainly wouldn't be a walk in the park.----
Murray?2 -
gronbek✭✭✭Isn't it a little strange though, here you are maxed experience full bar of skills and a ultimate fighting the same looking crabs/npc as at low level and now at VET they suddenly are a problem.
I find it destroys immersion a little. Should we not "own" trash mobs and be challenged against larger monsters and special NPC?10 -
Nicky_W✭✭✭^ this honestly.
My progress as a Templar from 1-50 was pretty standard. I went in, threw down some biting jabs and they died.
When I hit veteran I had to start thinking about engages more, and utilising cc.
If you are solo'ing PVE content CC is a must at veteran ranks.
So you have appreciate that you can't run in a group of 4+ NPC's and win. Unlike non veteran ranks.
That said, my second character (a DK) just stares at things and they die...even in veteran ranks lol1 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Isn't it a little strange though, here you are maxed experience full bar of skills and a ultimate fighting the same looking crabs/npc as at low level and now at VET they suddenly are a problem.
I find it destroys immersion a little. Should we not "own" trash mobs and be challenged against larger monsters and special NPC?
Or, because you're now in a higher level of content, the enemies should be a higher level of difficulty.
To use a pretty terrible analogy: look at Diablo III. When you finish the game on one difficulty level, the difficulty ramps up. Same enemies. Same classes. Same skills. Harder fights.----
Murray?1 -
gronbek✭✭✭
You DK is he using melee(two hand etc)phunkeymonkehb16_ESO wrote: »^ this honestly.
My progress as a Templar from 1-50 was pretty standard. I went in, threw down some biting jabs and they died.
When I hit veteran I had to start thinking about engages more, and utilising cc.
If you are solo'ing PVE content CC is a must at veteran ranks.
So you have appreciate that you can't run in a group of 4+ NPC's and win. Unlike non veteran ranks.
That said, my second character (a DK) just stares at things and they die...even in veteran ranks lol
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gronbek✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Isn't it a little strange though, here you are maxed experience full bar of skills and a ultimate fighting the same looking crabs/npc as at low level and now at VET they suddenly are a problem.
I find it destroys immersion a little. Should we not "own" trash mobs and be challenged against larger monsters and special NPC?
Or, because you're now in a higher level of content, the enemies should be a higher level of difficulty.
To use a pretty terrible analogy: look at Diablo III. When you finish the game on one difficulty level, the difficulty ramps up. Same enemies. Same classes. Same skills. Harder fights.
hmm, not really a good comparisson because you can really own mobs completely even on high difficuly in Diablo when you have the right gear.Edited by gronbek on June 13, 2014 1:19PM1 -
Hiply✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Isn't it a little strange though, here you are maxed experience full bar of skills and a ultimate fighting the same looking crabs/npc as at low level and now at VET they suddenly are a problem.
I find it destroys immersion a little. Should we not "own" trash mobs and be challenged against larger monsters and special NPC?
Or, because you're now in a higher level of content, the enemies should be a higher level of difficulty.
To use a pretty terrible analogy: look at Diablo III. When you finish the game on one difficulty level, the difficulty ramps up. Same enemies. Same classes. Same skills. Harder fights.
Sorry, from a storyline perspective that's ridiculous. We've all just solo'd Molag, we're civilization-saving badasses who have kicked ass across Tamriel to the point where even the rulers of the other Alliances know who we are and give us respect. We've crossed planes and led wars on darkness itself.
The VR path needed to reflect that. It doesn't, not even remotely.
Edited by Hiply on June 13, 2014 1:22PM20 -
gronbek✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Isn't it a little strange though, here you are maxed experience full bar of skills and a ultimate fighting the same looking crabs/npc as at low level and now at VET they suddenly are a problem.
I find it destroys immersion a little. Should we not "own" trash mobs and be challenged against larger monsters and special NPC?
Or, because you're now in a higher level of content, the enemies should be a higher level of difficulty.
To use a pretty terrible analogy: look at Diablo III. When you finish the game on one difficulty level, the difficulty ramps up. Same enemies. Same classes. Same skills. Harder fights.
Sorry, from a storyline perspective that's ridiculous. We've all just solo'd Molag, we're civilization-saving badasses, and the VR path needed to reflect that. It doesn't, not even remotely.
Exactly, good note.Edited by gronbek on June 13, 2014 1:21PM1 -
Nicky_W✭✭✭
Sorry, from a storyline perspective that's ridiculous. We've all just solo'd Molag, we're civilization-saving badasses who have kicked ass across Tamriel to the point where even the rulers of the other Alliances know who we are give us respect, and the VR path needed to reflect that. It doesn't, not even remotely.
So you are saying we should be able to faceroll all veteran content?
If we are going down that route you need to also remember that the only reason you were a 'civilization saving badass' was because you had the Amulet of Kings..which you no longer have.
I understand the need to feel progress, if you constantly feel weak then what is the point of levelling...I get that.
Personally for me, I'd much rather a challenge in fights. If I can solo Veteran (VR1=V12) content with a Templar (I'm a noob) Then anyone can.
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nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Isn't it a little strange though, here you are maxed experience full bar of skills and a ultimate fighting the same looking crabs/npc as at low level and now at VET they suddenly are a problem.
I find it destroys immersion a little. Should we not "own" trash mobs and be challenged against larger monsters and special NPC?
Or, because you're now in a higher level of content, the enemies should be a higher level of difficulty.
To use a pretty terrible analogy: look at Diablo III. When you finish the game on one difficulty level, the difficulty ramps up. Same enemies. Same classes. Same skills. Harder fights.
Sorry, from a storyline perspective that's ridiculous. We've all just solo'd Molag, we're civilization-saving badasses who have kicked ass across Tamriel to the point where even the rulers of the other Alliances know who we are give us respect, and the VR path needed to reflect that. It doesn't, not even remotely.
Well, that would be becauseCadwell tells you that you aren't going to actually be going to the other alliances. It's more of a vision-quest type thing.
Whether or not you think that's a good plot device is a totally separate issue, but they do explain it pretty clearly. It also has no bearing on difficulty. VR exists because people asked ZO for a game that wasn't so easy you could basically step away from the keyboard for a few minutes and still be fine in a fight.
The issue is that you're treating this like a single-player Elder Scrolls game, where as you advance in level, your enemies eventually fall way behind you. And that's fine for a single-player game where there isn't really any progression. In an MMO that does have leveling, it doesn't work to make the endgame easier than the leveling experience.----
Murray?1 -
gronbek✭✭✭Whay can't you own trash mobs? The challenge should be in trash pack leaders and bosses as well as larger monsters. The game is very unbalanced in this aspect. It is totally crazy that an exact same looking group of beach crabs can kill a VET player.
They need to visually balance the trash mobs the way it works in the game at present to make them reflect their immensively increased power level.Edited by gronbek on June 13, 2014 1:33PM9 -
Electus✭✭✭Whay can't you own trash mobs? The challenge should be in trash pack leaders and bosses as well as larger monsters. The game is very unbalanced in this aspect. It is totally crazy that an exact same looking group of beach crabs can kill a VET player.
They need to visually balance the trash mobs the way it works in the game at present to make them reflect their immensively increased power level.
You are assuming what the challenge should be based on what previous MMO's have done.
I like how difficult VR content is, MMO's are pretty boring when you don't fear death.1 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Its fine
V1 is not much more difficult than L50, V2 is about 10-15% on V2, so on and fo forth.
obviously, you don't get 10-15% increase in health, magicka, stamina, or spell power at each VR, you can craft better weapon though.0 -
gronbek✭✭✭
Nah, I am just saying what would make the game a much more fun and greater experience for me.Whay can't you own trash mobs? The challenge should be in trash pack leaders and bosses as well as larger monsters. The game is very unbalanced in this aspect. It is totally crazy that an exact same looking group of beach crabs can kill a VET player.
They need to visually balance the trash mobs the way it works in the game at present to make them reflect their immensively increased power level.
You are assuming what the challenge should be based on what previous MMO's have done.
I like how difficult VR content is, MMO's are pretty boring when you don't fear death.
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ShADoW0s✭✭✭Vr1 is not that hard, Vr3+ is where is starts getting harder, as the groups get bigger and you have more mages. Then the difficulty goes doing again in the new fraction zone, and by Vr9-10 is get really hard.2
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Thechemicals✭✭✭✭✭Less room for error, have to keep a keener eye out for special attacks. Best to not be a vampire unless you know what you are doing and have good reflexes, lotta fire in vr. If you don't grasp weapon swapping before or during combat, then it can become frustrating. Its important to have good aoe too.
Also, some mobs will roll you no matter what you do. Its tricky, you have to identify these creatures through trial and error. Atronauch packs in some area of craglorn are like this.Vr14 Templar since release- dual resto
Vr14 Dk bow/2h
Brayan Blackthunder
Goddick
Daggerfall Covenant0 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vr1 is not that hard, Vr3+ is where is starts getting harder, as the groups get bigger and you have more mages. Then the difficulty goes doing again in the new fraction zone, and by Vr9-10 is get really hard.
actually, it varies.
mob size in V1-2 are the same as V6-7
mob size in V3-5 are the same as V8-10
It does make sense because V1-2 and V6-7 are both starting zones of each faction.0 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭phunkeymonkehb16_ESO wrote: »
So you are saying we should be able to faceroll all veteran content?
If we are going down that route you need to also remember that the only reason you were a 'civilization saving badass' was because you had the Amulet of Kings..which you no longer have.
no. We're saying they should actually have provided veteran content instead doing a bit of Star trek alternate reality hand-waving and turning the claws on the mudcrabs up to 13.
Proper content with new stories where trash mobs were more of a challenge but remained essentially trash mobs and where the real challenge comes from real VR group content.
It's the lazy upscaling instead of presenting something new, it's the reuse of what are now to our character trivial (and usually cheap resprays of the same stories) quests plus the build imbalance they seem to be completely ignoring that makes VR simply tedious.
But that's how the game is and that's why populations are falling. ESO goes from a great story driven game where it's fun to play your character to a teeth-grinding exercise in theory-crafting frustration for some.
Because it is now unbalanced. But all you L2P e-peeners have won. This is the game now and in the future.
The only question is what impact if any does that have on its future.
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Dayv✭✭✭✭They hit a lot lot harder. You can't rely on armor to soak up any significant damage. My advice would be to train a lot of different skills before you get to VR because learning skills to get morphs/passives is a lot easier then and put plenty of attribute points into health. They also have a lot more health so try to look for skills that allow for resource management because you can easily burn through a full bar of magicka/stamina before the end of an encounter with trash mobs.1 -
LonePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Its fine
V1 is not much more difficult than L50, V2 is about 10-15% on V2, so on and fo forth.
This is not true at all. VR1 mobs and bosses are a good 25-30% tougher than level 50 mobs and bosses. The VR1 mobs have significantly more HP and deal much more damage than level 50 mobs.
Your assessment on the difficulty increase between VR levels (such as from VR1 to VR2) seems to be pretty accurate, though.
For the OP, there is a troll delve/cave in Reaper's March (I believe). Trolls at all levels are elite mobs. In both the VR5 and VR10 versions of this zone, the regular trolls in the cave are a good 20-25% tougher than the final boss according to pretty much all players with combat mods and add-ons. I hope you can enjoy the VR content despite these issues.
Edited by LonePirate on June 13, 2014 3:29PM2 -
Kalman✭✭✭✭You all forget in Vet levels you have your soul back, so you're just like every other shmuck on Nirn.2 -
Dayv✭✭✭✭Vr1 is not that hard, Vr3+ is where is starts getting harder, as the groups get bigger and you have more mages. Then the difficulty goes doing again in the new fraction zone, and by Vr9-10 is get really hard.
This
It's very apparent that Zeni didn't put a lot of thought into how VR works. They just applied a simple multiplier to it. pre 50 content, they ramp up the packs as you're going along but this is compensated by the fact that you're bacoming more powerful. The scaling in VR is all over the place with many bosses easier than the trash. It's also at the root of the magicka/stamina problem. Armor just doesn't scale against the hike in damage that mobs do, so magicka becomes a much more useful resource.3 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
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you are probably right, I don't have any addon so my numbers are just guesses.LonePirate wrote: »Its fine
V1 is not much more difficult than L50, V2 is about 10-15% on V2, so on and fo forth.
This is not true at all. VR1 mobs and bosses are a good 25-30% tougher than level 50 mobs and bosses. The VR1 mobs have significantly more HP and deal much more damage than level 50 mobs.
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ArRashid✭✭✭✭Well, techically speaking, not really THAT much stronger than normal mobs. Their damage scales in pretty much linear fashion from lvl 1 to VR10 (aka VR3 mob doesn't hit all that harder than lvl 49 one).
Health scales kind of exponentially though, going from almost no increases on 1-40 to really MAJOR increases just over a few levels (see trolls going from 7200 to 15000 HP in less than 5 VR ranks).
And worst of all, player damage seems to scale worst of all. It's so bad it's friggin logarithmic. Lvl 50 (=VR1) is the last level majority of your soft caps increase. After that, you don't grow any stronger, you just grow "rounded up" - since it's a waste to overcharge one stat too much, you just get more and more stats to soft caps, which however doesn't make you almost any stronger than you were at 50. The only thing that seems to continue scaling in linear fashion is Weapon damage (but due to way weapon skills scale, Weapon Damage stat's actual effectiveness is only 52%). Caps for regens stay the same on all VR ranks and other stats get minimal (aka about 20 or even less) increases every rank.
Not to mention the damned defense caps. Those things are the doom of gameplay. In every "normal" MMORPG just the basic heavy armor should get you to about 40-45% mitigation, which can be boosted to the cap of 75%... now, in ESO, your cap is 25% (majority of people use cloth or leather in which they have about 10/15% only though), which cannot even normally get much higher, unless you specifically use an ability to overcharge your armor/mr to a hard cap of 50%.4 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
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good readWell, techically speaking, not really THAT much stronger than normal mobs. Their damage scales in pretty much linear fashion from lvl 1 to VR10 (aka VR3 mob doesn't hit all that harder than lvl 49 one).
Health scales kind of exponentially though, going from almost no increases on 1-40 to really MAJOR increases just over a few levels (see trolls going from 7200 to 15000 HP in less than 5 VR ranks).
And worst of all, player damage seems to scale worst of all. It's so bad it's friggin logarithmic. Lvl 50 (=VR1) is the last level majority of your soft caps increase. After that, you don't grow any stronger, you just grow "rounded up" - since it's a waste to overcharge one stat too much, you just get more and more stats to soft caps, which however doesn't make you almost any stronger than you were at 50. The only thing that seems to continue scaling in linear fashion is Weapon damage (but due to way weapon skills scale, Weapon Damage stat's actual effectiveness is only 52%). Caps for regens stay the same on all VR ranks and other stats get minimal (aka about 20 or even less) increases every rank.
Not to mention the damned defense caps. Those things are the doom of gameplay. In every "normal" MMORPG just the basic heavy armor should get you to about 40-45% mitigation, which can be boosted to the cap of 75%... now, in ESO, your cap is 25% (majority of people use cloth or leather in which they have about 10/15% only though), which cannot even normally get much higher, unless you specifically use an ability to overcharge your armor/mr to a hard cap of 50%.
and spell damage don't go up more neither, why is that, ZoS?Edited by crislevin on June 13, 2014 2:32PM1 -
gaviidaeSoul ShrivenI like how difficult VR content is, MMO's are pretty boring when you don't fear death.
I find constantly running away from fights because one ability was misfired or a lag spike happened at the wrong time or LOS issues. I get the difficult is interesting but when every fight is a challenge over and over and over it gets feeling very grindy. And that's not much fun.3 -
Kalman✭✭✭✭LonePirate wrote: »You must not have encountered any quests in the VR zones where the NPC still thinks you don't have a soul. There is one such quest in the Veteran versions of Stormhaven.
I have, and I chalk it up to ZOS being too lazy to change the dialog for Vet. You got your soul back at the end of main quest there is no question about that.0
