This was such a good post I wanted to share it here.

baronzilch wrote: »
Large trade guilds seem to have no interest in new players. As their members' levels, on average, rise they only want to trade for items their own levels (which makes sense, that's not a knock). Even then, 500 potential buyers/item is too small a pool. Spamming zone chat is incredibly tedious and annoying for others.
I've seen people post a ton of reasons they *think* an AH isn't good, but, have yet to see a single one that is valid.
Gold spammers are here without one.
Database size is not an issue. (And if it is, the code skill behind this game is in more trouble than we thought.)
Price fixing is easier to do with less competition.
Immersion? WTH Lol. I want to play an RPG not ebayOnline.
WOW-ization of ESO? AH's are in many more games than WOW (for good reason).
Lowering prices? Actually a good thing; lower prices give gold sellers sad faces. And rare items will still stay high and mundane items will be more affordable.
Killing crafting? Dead wrong: Most players don't like to gather/craft and forcing everyone to craft shrinks the market for those that do.
Alternatives discussed:
Trade channel: I'm ok with having one, and like I'd like to keep guild stores for guilds to trade "special" items in house, but, doesn't solve the tedium of having to spam most of your sales. Or the issue of people that don't pick up their COD items right away. Or finding items you want and your level (seriously, I have to click on every blue that rolls through chat to see if I can use it/would use it? Annoying...)
Personal vendors ala EQ, Perfect World... just no. As a shopper it is ridiculously annoying and time consuming to hop from vendor to vendor comparing prices or looking for items.
As someone who has rerolled about 15 times in the last month (I like to experiment with class/weapon combos when I start a new game) this system is extremely unfriendly to new players. It's difficult to outfit your toon as you grow, or make some coin.

It's to the point where I sell everything to NPC vendors because the only other option is I waste my valuable gameplay time on trying to sell/buy stuff. The only easy way to shop for specifics is to buy vastly overpriced, mundane items from NPC vendors.

I'm more patient and far more experienced with MMOs than most, so, I'll be around for a bit, but, the lack of an AH will kill more subs than it will create as Newbies get frustrated with their white or mundane green gears that don't even fit their builds (quests rewards are practically random when you are new to a game: seriously thanks for that 2H sword on my staff/LA caster, or the LA on my DW/MA char).

Call it QQL2P if you want, but, being newb-friendly is what makes games successful; every game needs a constant influx of new players or it dies quickly. An AH is a very important part of this equation.

Perfection.

Heishi wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

"ZOS_UlyssesW mod
3:46PM Staff Post
Greetings everyone,
We are closing this thread because there is already a poll on this issue here. Please try to use the search button before creating a new thread. That allows us to help players more efficiently and facilitates the visibility of different issues.

I just want to reply, but the thread was obviously closed.

I did a search and could not find a poll. Just FYI.

Yep, there will probably be a small group flooding in from there now, myself included. I'll just settle down in the pool here and make myself comfortable while ZOS funnels others to this one particular thread about this out of the many many that are out there.

I did a search and found about 100 threads on AHs, but no polls.

I just did another search and still did not find this one.

@Blackwidow‌ i don't know if you'd kept up with my comments in the last thread, but my major objection to them having an AH is them screwing it up. Poor implementation of an AH can pretty well sink a game. Zeni's track record on getting it right the first time isn't looking so good.

Don't get me wrong though, I absolutely love the game and it's really the only one I'm playing at the moment. There's a lot of potential for growth, and it's pretty clear they're at least trying to fix things and make people happy. I just wouldn't roll the dice on an AH.

As a side note, majority may seem to want something, but majority don't always know what's best for them (not that I do either, I'm not that arrogant). For example, Majority of people would love to have a bunch of money for doing nothing. If a government listened to majority, the country would go broke. So.. they don't do this, and everyone goes on happy.(it was just a quick dirty example, I didn't feel the need to go into a whole socioeconomical debate about it or anything)

Blackwidow wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

@Blackwidow‌ i don't know if you'd kept up with my comments in the last thread, but my major objection to them having an AH is them screwing it up. Poor implementation of an AH can pretty well sink a game. Zeni's track record on getting it right the first time isn't looking so good.

Don't get me wrong though, I absolutely love the game and it's really the only one I'm playing at the moment. There's a lot of potential for growth, and it's pretty clear they're at least trying to fix things and make people happy. I just wouldn't roll the dice on an AH.

So, you'll keep the broken guild store and not chance getting a better system simply because you have no faith ZOS?

As a side note, majority may seem to want something, but majority don't always know what's best for them

That argument is a non starter, because we both know what they are asking for is better than the system they have now.

Making up some crazy example is just a way to keep side tracking the real issue.

Here, I'll give to a rebuttal.

The minority may seem to want something, but minority don't always know what's best for them

The first part is rich coming from you.

Also it's ironic that they locked your poll in favor of this one. This poll is from back in April when the economy was young and volatile. Your current poll, which I think people can still vote in, was trending towards no.

I have seen one global auction house, and it killed its game's economy. I have only heard horror stories about other AHs in other games. From what I see in ESO, it's susceptible to the same failings.

Ask yourself, where have you seen a global AH work in a game? What mechanics came together to make that AH model a good one? Do you see those same mechanics present in ESO?

From what I've seen, a trade channel in chat is probably the better way to go over an AH.

driosketch wrote: »

The first part is rich coming from you.

I'm rich with ideas.

Also it's ironic that they locked your poll in favor of this one.

It's not ironic. It was explained in detail that mine was the new one, so the closed it for one already in place.

I have seen one global auction house, and it killed its game's economy.

Name it.

I have only heard horror stories about other AHs in other games.

It's always a good policy to believe random rumors.

Ask yourself, where have you seen a global AH work in a game?

All of them.

What mechanics came together to make that AH model a good one?

Ease of use. Self balancing. Just a great tool all around.

Do you see those same mechanics present in ESO?

No. The guild stores suck.

@Blackwidow‌ Yes, that's what I'm saying I'd rather keep broken guild stores because of lack of faith in ZOS. If you use one guild for a primary to rep for cyradill and 4 trading guilds that's roughly 2000 people if maxed to sell to not including if the main guild has a store. There's a lot to work on to get it up to par, but at least it is established.

As I mentioned, GW2's AH worked great, I never really had a complaint with it.

FFXI I never had the chance to experience first hand, but everything I read about it, the AH ruined the economy in that game. TBH things I read were so bad I never picked up the game.

FFXIV The AH/Economy got so bad the company had to come in and take the gold away from people who had over a certain amount and manually force the economy to be set straight.

AH ruins economy because it's so easy and convenient to sell stuff. You get undercutters and people who value things severely differently. Right now price negotiation is between two players. You get person A selling say Barbaric Motif for 30k, person b says they've seen it for 20k, but they would be willing to go to 25k, person a agrees and everyone goes about their way. People keep it in this price range.

With an AH, people find these Barbaric Motifs all the time, Person a list their Motif for 30k. Person b finds one, but they aren't greedy, they'll sell it for 29,999. A-hole c comes in and is like forget that I only need 20k for my next bank slot and that will sell quick at 25k, then he'll have 5k left. Person b is having a lucky day and found another one. The 25k one will sell quickly and now he can get back to real money and list it for the 30k again. Person d, e, and f come in want quick sales and throw it on there for 20k. A-hole c checks in and see's he's be undercut. He uses this time to turn a profit, he's got money to burn. he buys all 3 of the 20k and relist them for 25k, still undercutting the 30k person. Bank rolling Guild comes in. This guild buys all the motifs for the 25k-30k and relist list them at 50k For about a week BRG sits on the AH and buys up every barbaric motif listed and relist at 50k with the occasional 45k one for a good deal

Ultimately this is what you end up with a few high dollar guilds controlling the prices of everything, much like how there were already guilds vampire spawn camping then selling the bites for 20-30k because it was the flavor of the week build and there was only a limited spot where you could get to it.

Resource farmers become a huge problem too. Boy oh boy, all people have to do is go out and hit up 34 nodes of that iron ore and dump it into the AH for 1k, then everyone being intelligent being is like hey, that's a pretty easy convenient way to make money. More people do it, then people rapidly undercut each other until a stack of iron ore is worth about a gold more than NPC vendoring it.

There's a lot of various outcomes, successful stable economy is one of the least likely. Combine that with ZOS fumbling it and people already leaving in boat loads because bugs and nerfs, it would be a disaster. You know there was an early issue where people were getting pulled into each other's accounts right? A player would have access to friends list, bank, everything within the other persons account. There was the bank items disappearing and characters being reset to first play through. Really, the Guild bank/store is one of the few things I haven't heard of a bunch of bugs in even though it limps along and needs major overhauling.

Though could you imagine if they took the "broken" guild store (essentially a small AH) and blew it up into a few size AH lol

TLDR: AH can work, but more often than not they don't

At Sheograths holy underpants!!! Keep that Auction crap away from this game.

Heishi wrote: »

As I mentioned, GW2's AH worked great, I never really had a complaint with it.

Sorry, but that is the worst AH which has ever existed in economic terms,
by an AH everything is principled only more expensive.

Blackwidow wrote: »

Name it.

@Blackwidow @baronzilch‌
Rage of Bahamut

I was there when they made the transition. If you're not familar it the game, I can go into greater detail if you need me to. Suffice to say, tl;dr, introduction of a global market killed the social aspect of trading, lead to massive deflation of all item below the top tier, which in turn led to power creep, and hurt new players trying to earn their way while doing little to halt exploiters and RMT.

Blackwidow wrote: »

Ask yourself, where have you seen a global AH work in a game?

All of them.

What mechanics came together to make that AH model a good one?

Ease of use. Self balancing. Just a great tool all around.

Do you see those same mechanics present in ESO?

No. The guild stores suck.

All of them, really? Your turn to name one. And 'ease of use' ect. isn't a mechanic, it's a buzz phrase. How did the actual AH work?

Blackwidow wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

Name it.

@Blackwidow @baronzilch‌
Rage of Bahamut

So, the one you can name, basically nobody has ever heard of.

All of them, really?

Yes, really.

Your turn to name one.

EQ2, WoW, Rift, and well, just about all of them. I can't think of one that an AH was not a great tool.

And 'ease of use' ect. isn't a mechanic, it's a buzz phrase.

It's a buzz phrase? Do you not understand what ease of use means?

Let me me help you. It was easy to use.

How did the actual AH work]

You don't know how an AH works?

So you really have nothing of substance to say.

You pretty much dodged the question, and tried to turn everything back on me. It doesn't matter if you personally have heard of the game, I listed several downsides and you didn't so much as acknowledge them.

Let's try and be specific then. Assume I don't know how the AH in EQ2 works. Describe it. And "ease of use" is subjective. One player might find having several layers of filters available makes the market easier to use. Another might find a less complex system easier to use.

Blackwidow wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

So you really have nothing of substance to say.

Let's agree to leave out the hyperbole insults out. Otherwise, I will not discuss anything else with you.

We aren't really discussing anything now.

Know what, I'll save you the effort. I bow out of this discussion.

driosketch wrote: »

Rage of Bahamut

Ummm... ok...

Your only experience with an AH is in a playing card game on your phone. And you think that is relevant to an MMO, how?

Seriously, you have nothing to offer here that relates to the topic at hand.

maybe we need something more like Craigslist. Like classified ads

While I agree this game needs an auction house, due to the sheer variety of craftable items, I'd argue it's important that the auction house have a "WTB" section, (or whatever the correct term is) where players could specify particular crafted items they'd like to purchase, and the price they are willing to pay. i.e. Bosmer lvl 20 heavy with the impenetrable trait. (or w/e)

The WTB section would only support craftable items/mats however.