The Vestige - Reckless and Misguided

ThePonzzz · June 2014

So following along the storylines, the vestige (players) gets caught up in a handful of situations where some greater force "allowed" the soulless one to live. I always feel this is an awkward story telling experience that leaves me feeling like these omnipotent beings could just wipe out Nirn if they really wanted to (but clearly don't or can't).

But it just feels like this is a common theme among Elder Scroll titles. The main character tends to constantly luck out or be granted a chance over the mere mortal Mer of Tamriel.

Anyway, just wanted to share my thoughts.

ebondeath · June 2014

I always feel like this when I encounter Mephala (which has only been once but I love her random chaos and her voice acting, I want to see more of her).

I think a good deal of it is arrogance on the part of the daedric princes. Even if you're a special mortal, they've been very powerful for a very long time and can't really conceive that anyone could throw a big wrench in their machinations.

As for domination of Tamriel, the only prince I felt was capable of that was Mehrunes Dagon, and I think that speaks to Oblivion's ability to make the bad guy feel like a real, substantial threat.

Turial · June 2014

Well if the dragonborn, soulless one or hero of kvatch started out as a mudcrab or worse, an arena fan where they get permanently killed in one hit then I would be mightily upset by the lack of gameplay. Why can't I cast this fireball, why did that horse just kick me to death, oh because I am a mudcrab? Fair enough then..... IMMERSION!!

I welcome the otherworldly powers we receive which helps us to play the game. Fus Ro Daaaaaamn :P

ThePonzzz · June 2014

Oh no. I agree that it is needed to have gameplay. But strictly from a story telling experience, it just always falls flat for me. Each hero usually is intertwined in a web to save the [insert area]. I get that they aren't classified as normal people in the game world. I would just like, for once, to feel like I made it because I was in control, not because the grace of [insert deity/greater power] allowed me to survive.

Kronosphere · June 2014

Go play Morrowind! on that game u start off as absolute crap. you earn your power (given once u obtain it you are pretty much god) and even then the gods are untouchable and in control and actually seem like powerful gods. i love that sense of the unknown and harshness of morrowind. when u do come across a god you beat them not by hitting them with a sword 99 times. (shivering isles made me cry when jygilag is just some boss character)

ZeroInspiration · June 2014

This is because of the heroes place in the Elder Scrolls. One can argue that the heroes are above all of creation as they are the only who can change the course of the scrolls.

That's why in the Shivering Isles (Oblivion expansion) there's a seer (I forget his name, was he a librarian?) that tells you that even though he can see everything future, since your appearance he can no longer tell what is truly the future. (Or something along the lines of that, correct me if I'm wrong)

edit: repeated the word seer.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · June 2014

I think it is also a bit of fun. If i was a near immortal in a group of near immortals that had be alive for ever and a day, im not going to squash the first person that shows up that might shake things up. Im just going to try to point him in a direction i want him to go and then watch what happens.

ThePonzzz · June 2014

Well there is also the issue of the main storyline in ESO, and the alliance storylines that you're doing along side it. There are several occasions where the Vestige nearly threw himself/herself into a bad, life-ending situation for the hell of it. But you have this overworld threat that you're suppose to be trying to stop. You escape Coldharbor to help the Prophet, but are willing to save a few people in quest, nearly just having your life cut off? Just doesn't settle right with me. In reality, the people needing your heroic assistance should be sacrificed for the greater good so Molag Bal is stopped. Hence my title of the Vestige being reckless. Obviously, my thoughts would make a very poor game. But again, just speaking about the story telling experience.

Ragekniv · June 2014

The whole premise of ESO's the soulless one seems like a rip off that's been done and done better in a previous MMO.

Planescape: "Torment" was released December 12, 1999.

"The Nameless One," an immortal being who, if killed, will wake up later, sometimes with complete amnesia. Each time The Nameless One dies, another person in the multiverse dies to fuel his resurrection. These dead turn into ghosts that seek revenge on him. When the game starts, The Nameless One wakes in a mortuary with no memories, as a result of his latest death. He sets out on a quest to regain his lost memories and discover why he is immortal. He slowly learns about the personalities of his previous incarnations, and the influence they have had on the world and people that surround him.

ArRashid · June 2014

Daedric Princes are Daedric Princes... this world is just a playground to them.. they mainly fight with each other or are just having "fun" watching mortals and influencing their decisions.. the more complicated those machinations are, the better. They know even the strongest of mortals can't possibly harm them (look at poor Shalidor), and can't entirely vanquish them even with help of Aedra or other Daedric Princes. We are just toys to play with (again, especially obvious around Sheogorath who, unlike others, enjoy when you KNOW he's playing with you).

As for them trying to conquer Mundus, it's more likely a convenience than their final objective. Even Molag Bal (after you defeat his campaign) claims that he was trying to "save" us - that we would be better off as his slaves than suffering the fate far worse than that. Makes for a decent cliffhanger for expansions though..

Whisper292 · June 2014

ThePonzzz wrote: »

So following along the storylines, the vestige (players) gets caught up in a handful of situations where some greater force "allowed" the soulless one to live. I always feel this is an awkward story telling experience that leaves me feeling like these omnipotent beings could just wipe out Nirn if they really wanted to (but clearly don't or can't).

I don't think they really do want to destroy Nirn. It seems like most of the Gods, Daedric Princes, or general evildoers are more interested in domination than destruction. You'll have a few that say they want to destroy the world, but I think most of them just want to bend Nirn to their will. Even Alduin--if he destroyed the world and everyone in it, what was he going to do then?

But you have to have balance. If you have an ultimate villain, you need an ultimate hero to fight him. And unless someone is just really masochistic, they want the hero they're playing to do well, so they powers that be have to allow him to live somehow. If they kill the hero off right at the beginning of the story, there's no story.

ThePonzzz · June 2014

@Whisper292, I agree. It's quite the conundrum.

ZeroInspiration · June 2014

Whisper292 wrote: »

ThePonzzz wrote: »

So following along the storylines, the vestige (players) gets caught up in a handful of situations where some greater force "allowed" the soulless one to live. I always feel this is an awkward story telling experience that leaves me feeling like these omnipotent beings could just wipe out Nirn if they really wanted to (but clearly don't or can't).

I don't think they really do want to destroy Nirn. It seems like most of the Gods, Daedric Princes, or general evildoers are more interested in domination than destruction. You'll have a few that say they want to destroy the world, but I think most of them just want to bend Nirn to their will. Even Alduin--if he destroyed the world and everyone in it, what was he going to do then?

But you have to have balance. If you have an ultimate villain, you need an ultimate hero to fight him. And unless someone is just really masochistic, they want the hero they're playing to do well, so they powers that be have to allow him to live somehow. If they kill the hero off right at the beginning of the story, there's no story.

Alduin has actually destroyed the world before, more than once. In one of the conversations with Paarthunax he tells you that this world might be the egg of the next kalpa. Thus by saving it you deny the next world the chance of being born, which means that Alduin is not really a destroyer, but the one in charge of keeping the cycles of the universe, and this is something that is above mortals, Daedra and Aedra alike.

There is evidence of this in the 36 Lessons of Vivec, especially one line that reads: "At this the egg laughed. 'I am given too much to bear so young. I must have been born before' "

Why then does the Dragonborn has the ability to stop him? He is above creation and can decide what's written in the Scrolls.

Whisper292 · June 2014

ZeroInspiration wrote: »

Why then does the Dragonborn has the ability to stop him? He is above creation and can decide what's written in the Scrolls.

The only answer I can think of is that there needs to be balance. Light/dark, good/evil, destruction/creation (or maintenance--lack of destruction).

Sakiri · June 2014

Daedra are not good, not evil. The concepts of good and evil don't exist to them in the way they do mortals.

They're pretty ego centric and believe the entire world revolves around them.

Take Azura and Meridia for example. They're not exactly "evil" in the mortal sense of the word, but they are severely vindictive and judgmental and you do *not* want to tick them off.

They demand obedience. Mortals are beneath daedra. They like to let you know this.

Sakiri · June 2014

ZeroInspiration wrote: »

Whisper292 wrote: »

ThePonzzz wrote: »

So following along the storylines, the vestige (players) gets caught up in a handful of situations where some greater force "allowed" the soulless one to live. I always feel this is an awkward story telling experience that leaves me feeling like these omnipotent beings could just wipe out Nirn if they really wanted to (but clearly don't or can't).

I don't think they really do want to destroy Nirn. It seems like most of the Gods, Daedric Princes, or general evildoers are more interested in domination than destruction. You'll have a few that say they want to destroy the world, but I think most of them just want to bend Nirn to their will. Even Alduin--if he destroyed the world and everyone in it, what was he going to do then?

But you have to have balance. If you have an ultimate villain, you need an ultimate hero to fight him. And unless someone is just really masochistic, they want the hero they're playing to do well, so they powers that be have to allow him to live somehow. If they kill the hero off right at the beginning of the story, there's no story.

Alduin has actually destroyed the world before, more than once. In one of the conversations with Paarthunax he tells you that this world might be the egg of the next kalpa. Thus by saving it you deny the next world the chance of being born, which means that Alduin is not really a destroyer, but the one in charge of keeping the cycles of the universe, and this is something that is above mortals, Daedra and Aedra alike.

There is evidence of this in the 36 Lessons of Vivec, especially one line that reads: "At this the egg laughed. 'I am given too much to bear so young. I must have been born before' "

Why then does the Dragonborn has the ability to stop him? He is above creation and can decide what's written in the Scrolls.

All the Last Dragonborn did was delay the inevitable.

Ish_Fingers · June 2014

Since Elder Scrolls titles have always been somewhat ambiguous with the hero's back-story (I.E. wake up in a cell with no recollection of what just happened) I've always envisioned myself/my character to be out-of-this-worldly.

Or maybe for full immersion, I have been sucked 'through the looking glass' so-to-speak and my [actual] self has taken its place within Tamriel to overcome the challenge that awaits. For this reason, typical rules of Nirn do not [yet] apply to me, meaning I can slip past the watchful eyes of Daedric Princes without so much as a stir.

Side-note: I've never considered the Princes inherently evil... They've just got their own sh*t going on and every-so-often someone comes along and interferes with their plans, for better or worse. They probably don't want the hassle of dealing with something which may not concern them at that given point.

traigusb14_ESO2 · June 2014

Spoilers etc. though other people seem to be giving details.

Having played 2 sets of the content and working on the 3rd. I can pretty much say that the Vestige is always working for Meridia, even though it isn't really obvious until the end game. ( and maybe with the help of Uncle Shel and his misdirection and trickery... I was positive Caldwell was working for Uncle Shel, and am still not sure he isn't actually him poking us along. he's to unkillable and to pally pally with Meridia for a mortal).

The princes block each other. Molag Bal spent a long time setting up his stuff, then made a sudden grab.

The other Deadic princes are around, but still doing small potato conquest (which we smash up) while Molag Bal surprised everyone with a literal land grab... except meridia.

We are set up to not only Beat up Molag Bal, but to give a lower level kicking to pretty much every other Prince, including Uncle Shel (who has a good time with it anyway).

The heroes of ES games are dragged to their fates, unless you just wander around and never finish the games. Always an agent of someone's agenda....

nerevarine1138 · June 2014

Ragekniv wrote: »

The whole premise of ESO's the soulless one seems like a rip off that's been done and done better in a previous MMO.

Planescape: "Torment" was released December 12, 1999.

"The Nameless One," an immortal being who, if killed, will wake up later, sometimes with complete amnesia. Each time The Nameless One dies, another person in the multiverse dies to fuel his resurrection. These dead turn into ghosts that seek revenge on him. When the game starts, The Nameless One wakes in a mortuary with no memories, as a result of his latest death. He sets out on a quest to regain his lost memories and discover why he is immortal. He slowly learns about the personalities of his previous incarnations, and the influence they have had on the world and people that surround him.

I mean, I guess that sounds similar if you call the Vestige the "soulless one" and pretend that we lose our memories on death and we have the ghosts of random fallen civilians out following us and that we learn about our prior incarnations.

So basically, if we pretend that ESO is actually Planescape: Torment (which was a great game in its own right, don't get me wrong), then you're right. They're exactly the same.

P.S. Planescape: Torment wasn't an MMO.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2014

Its hard to be reckless when you know that you can just keep dying with no consequences.

Potential Spoilers/Lorebits:

Perhaps that might be a misguided point of view, but hey the Vestige characters are fuelled by Akatosh/Nirn stones that pump you full of Aedra-juice enough to deal with your Daedrification. I too felt the Daedra were trying to vie for my attention, and snubbed many of them along the way. Boethiah won't be pleased, but I think Meridia and Azura are ok with me. It all reminds me of a Greek mythology more or less, with gods and titans playing pawns with Heroes (ie: demigods, or demigods in the making).

Knootewoot · June 2014

If the TES games

ThePonzzz wrote: »

So following along the storylines, the vestige (players) gets caught up in a handful of situations where some greater force "allowed" the soulless one to live. I always feel this is an awkward story telling experience that leaves me feeling like these omnipotent beings could just wipe out Nirn if they really wanted to (but clearly don't or can't).

But it just feels like this is a common theme among Elder Scroll titles. The main character tends to constantly luck out or be granted a chance over the mere mortal Mer of Tamriel.

Anyway, just wanted to share my thoughts.

Past TES games had a save and load game feature. Surely if these where not there, the main character might not have saved the world that often. Don't tell me you never died in the TES games.

In ESO youhave no soul and so you can't really die. Fits in the storyline for me.
But if you play past TES games and don't use savegame you won't live through the end (unless played on very easy)

Sleepydan · June 2014

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I think it is also a bit of fun. If i was a near immortal in a group of near immortals that had be alive for ever and a day, im not going to squash the first person that shows up that might shake things up. Im just going to try to point him in a direction i want him to go and then watch what happens.

And that is why you would fail as a dark oppressor, and daedra are daedra

Lovely · June 2014

Ragekniv wrote: »

The whole premise of ESO's the soulless one seems like a rip off that's been done and done better in a previous MMO.

Planescape: "Torment" was released December 12, 1999.

Even if it somehow resembles the premise it's not really the same thing. Here, your soul was stolen and you want it back or you will shiver away and die.
In Planescape, the stripping of his mortality was done on purpose, to gain immortality, to save himself from the eternal Blood War. The memory loss was an undesired side effect. There's quite a big difference between your soul and your mortality and getting your mortality back does not seem urgent at all and the threat of who took your mortality isn't there either. It's much more personal, you're no hero in Planescape.

I just don't see it.