hk11 wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

I challenge you to find arguments against playing any of the classes paired with what we view as a traditional roll. Outside of some class balance issue in regards to being able to viably perform a specific role (heals, tank) what is a valid reason not to have a cloth nb healer or a heavy armor sorc tank or any other combination you can think up?

My only argument against it is that it apparently makes it hard to balance the classes.

Please elaborate. Without more of your argument it is hard to agree or disagree.

hk11 wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

I challenge you to find arguments against playing any of the classes paired with what we view as a traditional roll. Outside of some class balance issue in regards to being able to viably perform a specific role (heals, tank) what is a valid reason not to have a cloth nb healer or a heavy armor sorc tank or any other combination you can think up?

My only argument against it is that it apparently makes it hard to balance the classes.

I would rather see more classes, like maybe the default class list from Morrwind/Oblivion. Custom classes are the way to go when playing an ES game, but it doesn't really work like that in ESO. You pick a class, see an idea of what it's supposed to look like in character creation, and then find out later that you need to do the opposite to be competitive.

I think classes is a misnomer in this game. They really are only referencing a specific set of abilities and skill associated with the 'base'class. Technically, you need never even place a skill point into any of your class skills if you did not want to although that would be counterproductive.

I believe that a synergy has to be found with the class you chose and your own specific playstyle. Outside of some bugs and balancing issues each class offers a way to be played many different ways.

I will admit now that I was not someone who thought this way and just recently changed my mind, within the past 30 mins of reading something that provoked the thought.

lecarcajou_ESO wrote: »

Advanced pay, more like. Question is, is it worth it?

To me, it is. For all the balancing flaws and bugs, I really enjoy the combat system, how dynamic and involving it is.

PvP and Trails are preventing a lot of players from considering the "off the wall" builds. Yes, there are some very enjoyable builds available, but if they do not compete with what other players can do then they are not often even considered.

You can survive 1-50 PvE content with these odd builds, but once you hit vet levels.. You are almost forced to make the current cookie cutter builds in order to survive.

Yes there are players that can run vet content without doing so, but there seems to be a large majority that simply refuse due to the difficulty or can't do it.

Liquid_Time wrote: »

PvP and Trails are preventing a lot of players from considering the "off the wall" builds. Yes, there are some very enjoyable builds available, but if they do not compete with what other players can do then they are not often even considered.

You can survive 1-50 PvE content with these odd builds, but once you hit vet levels.. You are almost forced to make the current cookie cutter builds in order to survive.

Yes there are players that can run vet content without doing so, but there seems to be a large majority that simply refuse due to the difficulty or can't do it.

Can we define odd and cookie cutter builds. My contention is that any class if built around your play style correctly can be a viable character in any situation. Barring of course bugs or obvious balance issues.

I believe we are looking at the problem all wrong. Many arguments are that no class can viably wear heavy armor or the only viable weapon is restoration staff. I want to find out what the root of that is and repair that train of thought. I think it is because we are still trapped in traditional definitions.

Mablung wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

lecarcajou_ESO wrote: »

Advanced pay, more like. Question is, is it worth it?

To me, it is. For all the balancing flaws and bugs, I really enjoy the combat system, how dynamic and involving it is.

This is semi on topic so let me pick out the part that might be relevant. Lets begin with balancing flaws. What class or set of skills cause a balancing issue? How does it affect all of the classes or does it just tend to give one class more utility over the others?

Read Pve Discussions=>Skill lines forums. There's a lot of whining there, but there are legitimate concerns voiced there, as well.

For one, Magicka-centered builds being vastly more functional than Stamina-centered, due to both, undue utility strain on the Stamina bar, and Stamina skills in general being a lot less functional (both damage and utility-wise) per-resource point.

Heavy armour passives need a lot of help. With no exaggeration, I have a lot more survivability in light armour as a tank, simply because of how easy it is to get capped on armour value, and because of how useful Magicka-based utility is for survival, control and sustenance. Medium armour has its uses, but, overall, it's also very far from light, raw utility-wise.

@Still_Mind‌ I get the frustration over the functionality of magicka versus stam but that is really what I am getting at. I believe that even with the perceived balance issue with these 2 resources, it is still possible to have a very viable stam build in the right hands of the right player. In my mind I see the stam issue as an easy fix. Bring the cost of stam based abilities down along with doge/block and that resolves many of those issues, however this makes the game less evolved and easier.

Thus we get to the part of this game being for an advanced playstyle. ZOS made a game that was to be challenging (IMO) at all levels specifically with character creation. We see the complaints about weak classes and balance issues and we also see the delayed response by the developers. I think they want us to work it out for ourselves and stop thinking in traditional terms.

Mablung wrote: »

@Still_Mind‌ I get the frustration over the functionality of magicka versus stam but that is really what I am getting at. I believe that even with the perceived balance issue with these 2 resources, it is still possible to have a very viable stam build in the right hands of the right player. In my mind I see the stam issue as an easy fix. Bring the cost of stam based abilities down along with doge/block and that resolves many of those issues, however this makes the game less evolved and easier.

Thus we get to the part of this game being for an advanced playstyle. ZOS made a game that was to be challenging (IMO) at all levels specifically with character creation. We see the complaints about weak classes and balance issues and we also see the delayed response by the developers. I think they want us to work it out for ourselves and stop thinking in traditional terms.

Right now, I'm ploughing through Veteran content on a Fire mage Dragon Knight. 0 Stamina skills on the bar (sometimes Immovable for Trials and some VR dungeons), 0 Stamina enchantments. Zero challenge whatsoever. I lock down whole packs of 5-6 enemies in public group dungeons with Volcanic rune (mages guild skill) and talons, and they can't even scratch me most of the time (whip unruly things that get knocked away from the main pack by the explosion). Any group boss that's not CC-immune gets CC-locked and kited into Oblivion. Caster bosses kill themselves on Reflects (almost 2k damage on boss staff attacks, reflect is sustainable due to light armour passives, big mana pool and regen). The only stuff that I can't reliably kill is hard-hitting CC-immune melee (unless it likes to perform directional attacks and rarely targets you directly, then it's a cakewalk). But I'm pretty sure that if I stack miss chance mechanics, I'll be able to take those out way better.

There's a fine contrast with my Nightblade, who was Stamina-focused (then more hybridized) for a very long time. Couldn't do half the things I could do with dedicated caster. Dropped the silly metal things, took off smelly leathers, put on my robe and wizard hat, got myself a magic wand and voilà, I'm the king of the world once again.

Granted, Stam builds have their niche in PvP (bow ganking is positively hilarious, and I revisit it regularly - as well as enjoy the ability to laugh at prevalent Antimagic usage), but, unless you're full Magicka, or a Magicka-heavy hybrid, you basically are gimping yourself, as it currently stands.

Anything other than cloth + staff is realtively weaker in PvE. This is purely because the game is so heavily damage based. Everyone is going cloth + staff firstly because you get more damage, in ESO, because of the high damage and HP model the rule is: kill it before it kills you, and therefore the highest DPSers usually win. This gives no room for duration fights, and these are usually the hardest fights in the game. Secondly stamina based builds are weak because, as someone put it in an another thread, no one wants to use their defense pool to DPS with. If you use all you stamina and have none to block a heavy attack with, then you are dead, so everyone just swaps it out with magic.

EDIT:

Third reason:

hamon wrote: »

the negatives of light armour SHOULD be the armour rating itself.. but since the soft cap in armour is so easy to hit even while wearing light armour that is no longer a negative.

I think that the point is being missed. We know what is working. What is working that we do not know? I have read where templar, heavy armor, sword and board healers are viable end game characters. I can buy into it. Especially if the player knows his role and what he has built.