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Light Armor + Staff, 3 solutions
The problems in balance and the inability to run viable stamina builds all boils down to the synergies between staves and light armor. This does not mean that stamina builds are not viable in the PvE world - simply that they will not be invited to trial groups generally, and will have harder times with resource management in order to come close to the healing/damage output of a light armor/staff build.
The synergies I'm talking about are two-fold. The first and most glaring is on the light armor side - The ability to negate 21% of the cost of your skills, coupled with a up to 28% regeneration of the magicka pool. Add to this set items that further reduce cost, flat cost reduction jewelry, and cost reduction racials and you can end up with a stupid amount of magicka per ability usage. While Pulsar and Elemental Wall are not the most damaging of AOEs, they are by far the most efficient since they use magicka. Cost reduction from the light armor tree makes these skills far more desirable than any of the weaponline counterparts (Whirlwind, Cleave, Volley, etc), since they become far more sustainable. The second issue is in staves using spell critical instead of melee critical in order to boost their damage. This negates the choice to run with medium armor as the Dexterity passive does nothing for either of the characters main skill lines. A simple delve into the Mage's Guild will provide anyone and everyone with 20% spell critical, another 10% from Prodigy since light armor is the obvious choice, and then an even further percentage from the Mundus stones since pool regeneration or increased maximums aren't necessary at this point.
When you make skills synergize like this, it becomes not only impossible to beat, but extremely difficult to even come close to through other means. Restoration staff, which should be used by whomever is playing the role of the healer, provides a 10% damage boost through the Cycle of Life passive. This is straight DPS to anyone who is using class skills instead of weapon skills as output! You may say "But Jester, the Dual Wield weapon line will also increase your classes damage output!" I'd quickly remind you that the abilities in the dual wield line also require stamina and stamina regeneration - which causes the entire synergistic effect of light armor to fall apart. When the light armor falls down, so does your spell critical. You pulled out the cornerstone from my Jenga tower... it's all coming down.
Destruction staff allows anyone to AOE with the best of them while wearing light armor, and Restoration staff allows anyone to increase their base DPS by 10% and base healing output by up to 30% while wearing light armor. While ZOS nerfs pulsar, and buffs individual class skills - they are ignoring the flaw at it's source: The overpowered nature of Light Armor.
If Light Armor gave cost reduction to dodge/roll/block and stamina based skills as well as magicka - do you honestly think you'd see the disparity in weapon choices? Heck no! You'd have robe wearing greatsword swinging knuckle draggers left and right. Robe wearing archers. All weapon lines would be able to be balanced accordingly. But light armor would remain ahead of the pack.
There are really only three answers to this problem:
1. Light armor needs the cost reduction to magicka skills removed or squelched.
2. Light armor needs negatives to balance what positives come from it (negative HPs per piece worn, increased susceptibility to fire, etc)
3. Medium and Heavy armor need passives that would bring them into desirability to an equal level.
Until this is fixed, any boosting/nerfing of class abilities and/or staff based weapon skills have no effect on the paradigm. You reduce the damage on Pulsar, the Dragonknight robe wearer simply uses a different AoE in it's place. You increase the damage on Impale, the Nightblade robe wearer thanks you. Now if you were to give an "Evocation" passive to the medium/heavy armor tree, and a fighter's guild passive that allowed dodge/roll/block stamina to come from the magicka pool? Your 8 different robe wearing staff weilders become thousands of effective builds.
Heavy Armor Passive: Strength of Will. Rank 1 Combat Manuevers cost Magicka instead of Stamina while wearing 5 pieces of heavy armor or more.
Heavy Armor Passive: Empowered Plates: Rank 1/2/3 Reduces the Stamina cost of spells and skills by 1%/2%/3%, and increases maximum HPs/Stamina by 0.5%/1%/1.5% per piece of heavy armor worn.
Medium Armor Passive: Catlike Reflexes Rank 1 Combat Manuevers costs are split between your Magicka and Stamina pools equally while wearing 5 or more pieces of medium armor.
Medium Armor Passive: Dexterity: Rank 1/2 Reduces the cost of all spells and skills by 1%/2%, increases melee critical strike chance by 1%/2%, and increases melee critical strike damage by 1%/2% per piece of medium armor worn.
Edited by Hedonist_Jester on June 11, 2014 6:40PM The synergies I'm talking about are two-fold. The first and most glaring is on the light armor side - The ability to negate 21% of the cost of your skills, coupled with a up to 28% regeneration of the magicka pool. Add to this set items that further reduce cost, flat cost reduction jewelry, and cost reduction racials and you can end up with a stupid amount of magicka per ability usage. While Pulsar and Elemental Wall are not the most damaging of AOEs, they are by far the most efficient since they use magicka. Cost reduction from the light armor tree makes these skills far more desirable than any of the weaponline counterparts (Whirlwind, Cleave, Volley, etc), since they become far more sustainable. The second issue is in staves using spell critical instead of melee critical in order to boost their damage. This negates the choice to run with medium armor as the Dexterity passive does nothing for either of the characters main skill lines. A simple delve into the Mage's Guild will provide anyone and everyone with 20% spell critical, another 10% from Prodigy since light armor is the obvious choice, and then an even further percentage from the Mundus stones since pool regeneration or increased maximums aren't necessary at this point.
When you make skills synergize like this, it becomes not only impossible to beat, but extremely difficult to even come close to through other means. Restoration staff, which should be used by whomever is playing the role of the healer, provides a 10% damage boost through the Cycle of Life passive. This is straight DPS to anyone who is using class skills instead of weapon skills as output! You may say "But Jester, the Dual Wield weapon line will also increase your classes damage output!" I'd quickly remind you that the abilities in the dual wield line also require stamina and stamina regeneration - which causes the entire synergistic effect of light armor to fall apart. When the light armor falls down, so does your spell critical. You pulled out the cornerstone from my Jenga tower... it's all coming down.
Destruction staff allows anyone to AOE with the best of them while wearing light armor, and Restoration staff allows anyone to increase their base DPS by 10% and base healing output by up to 30% while wearing light armor. While ZOS nerfs pulsar, and buffs individual class skills - they are ignoring the flaw at it's source: The overpowered nature of Light Armor.
If Light Armor gave cost reduction to dodge/roll/block and stamina based skills as well as magicka - do you honestly think you'd see the disparity in weapon choices? Heck no! You'd have robe wearing greatsword swinging knuckle draggers left and right. Robe wearing archers. All weapon lines would be able to be balanced accordingly. But light armor would remain ahead of the pack.
There are really only three answers to this problem:
1. Light armor needs the cost reduction to magicka skills removed or squelched.
2. Light armor needs negatives to balance what positives come from it (negative HPs per piece worn, increased susceptibility to fire, etc)
3. Medium and Heavy armor need passives that would bring them into desirability to an equal level.
Until this is fixed, any boosting/nerfing of class abilities and/or staff based weapon skills have no effect on the paradigm. You reduce the damage on Pulsar, the Dragonknight robe wearer simply uses a different AoE in it's place. You increase the damage on Impale, the Nightblade robe wearer thanks you. Now if you were to give an "Evocation" passive to the medium/heavy armor tree, and a fighter's guild passive that allowed dodge/roll/block stamina to come from the magicka pool? Your 8 different robe wearing staff weilders become thousands of effective builds.
Heavy Armor Passive: Strength of Will. Rank 1 Combat Manuevers cost Magicka instead of Stamina while wearing 5 pieces of heavy armor or more.
Heavy Armor Passive: Empowered Plates: Rank 1/2/3 Reduces the Stamina cost of spells and skills by 1%/2%/3%, and increases maximum HPs/Stamina by 0.5%/1%/1.5% per piece of heavy armor worn.
Medium Armor Passive: Catlike Reflexes Rank 1 Combat Manuevers costs are split between your Magicka and Stamina pools equally while wearing 5 or more pieces of medium armor.
Medium Armor Passive: Dexterity: Rank 1/2 Reduces the cost of all spells and skills by 1%/2%, increases melee critical strike chance by 1%/2%, and increases melee critical strike damage by 1%/2% per piece of medium armor worn.
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PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nerfing Light will not make Medium and Heavy any less crappy.It will just make all builds gimp. Unfortunately this is the direction that ZOS seems to want to take.
What a boring game this will be in a couple of months.
ESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)9 -
Triple the armour of heavy and double the armour of medium and give same stam regen bonus as light have in magic.
And ofcurse double the cap aswell.1 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »
it will be all equally crappy and boring.Yes.
To the OP
One other options would be to have only one single Armor Line but branched.Each branch suited to a play style mage/tank/light fighter/healer.For example mage branch would give bonuses to magicka heavy builds no matter the armor type but with slightly different effect depending on the armor type. A mage would not completely gimp himself by going Heavy but maybe not be as dps effective as a light armor one. The branches for the other archetypes should be well thought out in actually be usefull for such builds.
Also maybe all classes should have some form of passive that makes damage of class skills also be dependent on stamina and the cost be split or exchanged between the two resource.
Unfortunately I don't expect anything other than nerfs.ESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)1 -
hamon✭✭✭✭✭
✭the negatives of light armour SHOULD be the armour rating itself.. but since the soft cap in armour is so easy to hit even while wearing light armour that is no longer a negative.
if as is usually the case in MMO's and rpgs in general if you wear heavier armour you gain survivability through extra HP , armour and resists..
(you know the stuff that makes tanks tanky) and which if done right would make impulse spam a very risky tactics . cos cloth wearing and melee range is and should be very hazardous.
but in ESO it isnt .... thats what is broken. these things are tried and tested for 20 years and work for a reason.. its MMO 101 .. but somehow the devs in their arrogance thought they could throw away whats tried and tested and leave us with this joke of a balance instead.3 -
Aimelin✭✭✭So, do you guys even compare the different amounts of spell resist & armor you get with full light, medium & heavy?
Wtf is this? ok guys, we got DKs nerfed & sorc semi nerfed, lets find the next thing to cry about & get it nerfed?
instead of nerfing everything, propose things to bring the other armor types on par with light, instead of crying qq op nerf !!!!1!111!!!
i honestly thing they're fine as is, light gives magicka recovery, medium gives stam recovery, heavy gives hp recovery. Light gives bonus to spells, medium to weapons, heavy to survivability.
wtf is you guys problem? are you trying to run magicka based builds while you pump *** in stam? learn what different class abilities & weapon abilities are considered as, not all "spells" are spells ....2 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »
it will be all equally crappy and boring.Yes.
To the OP
One other options would be to have only one single Armor Line but branched.Each branch suited to a play style mage/tank/light fighter/healer.For example mage branch would give bonuses to magicka heavy builds no matter the armor type but with slightly different effect depending on the armor type. A mage would not completely gimp himself by going Heavy but maybe not be as dps effective as a light armor one. The branches for the other archetypes should be well thought out in actually be usefull for such builds.
Also maybe all classes should have some form of passive that makes damage of class skills also be dependent on stamina and the cost be split or exchanged between the two resource.
Unfortunately I don't expect anything other than nerfs.
Well nerfs or not the thing to understand about armor is it shouldn't be role defining or pigeonhole your character in any way.
So with that being said you have to make sure you don't boost Heavy Armor to be the ONLY MUST HAVE to tank choice. Think about that NightBlade DPS that wants to wear medium but his group of friends need a tank. Instead of having to learn to wear all new gear, he just pushes his armor up to the soft cap and wields a 1hander and shield.
Same thing for say Heavy Armor you should be able to wear Heavy Armor without having to worry that your gimping yourself as a DPS or healer.
So in reality the passives have to "suck" as you so put it. To me the passives for all 3 look to be really well balanced the real current issue is the perception that Magicka builds are better than Stamina builds.
Currently there are certain things throwing the balance in the direction of Magicka but its NOT the gear.0 -
PBpsy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So, do you guys even compare the different amounts of spell resist & armor you get with full light, medium & heavy?
Wtf is this? ok guys, we got DKs nerfed & sorc semi nerfed, lets find the next thing to cry about & get it nerfed?
instead of nerfing everything, propose things to bring the other armor types on par with light, instead of crying qq op nerf !!!!1!111!!!
i honestly thing they're fine as is, light gives magicka recovery, medium gives stam recovery, heavy gives hp recovery. Light gives bonus to spells, medium to weapons, heavy to survivability.
wtf is you guys problem? are you trying to run magicka based builds while you pump *** in stam? learn what different class abilities & weapon abilities are considered as, not all "spells" are spells ....
No they are certainly not balanced.
LA give extra damage with magicka skills, 21% cost reduction, 10% crit and magicka regen.and spell resist. I do think it is where the Line should be though. The other Armors are pretty bad compared and should be drastically buffed. I am now completely converted.
Also it isn't a matter of being able to cap armor in LA since armor seems to not do much when you are dead in 4 hits with either 1000 armor or 2000 armor.I prefer to let it at 1450 with 5 L/2H and use my jewel enchants for actually good stuff like extra magicka regen and reduced spell cost The whole mechanic of armor mitigation should be looked at. I am a Sword and Shield NB.Edited by PBpsy on June 11, 2014 9:41PMESO forums achievementsProud fanboiElitist jerkTrollHaterFan of icontested(rainbow colors granted)1 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭So, do you guys even compare the different amounts of spell resist & armor you get with full light, medium & heavy?
Wtf is this? ok guys, we got DKs nerfed & sorc semi nerfed, lets find the next thing to cry about & get it nerfed?
instead of nerfing everything, propose things to bring the other armor types on par with light, instead of crying qq op nerf !!!!1!111!!!
i honestly thing they're fine as is, light gives magicka recovery, medium gives stam recovery, heavy gives hp recovery. Light gives bonus to spells, medium to weapons, heavy to survivability.
wtf is you guys problem? are you trying to run magicka based builds while you pump *** in stam? learn what different class abilities & weapon abilities are considered as, not all "spells" are spells ....
No they are certainly not balanced.
LA give extra damage with magicka skills, 21% cost reduction, 10% crit and magicka regen.and spell resist. I do think it is where the Line should be though. The other Armors are pretty bad compared and should be drastically buffed. I am now completely converted.
Also it isn't a matter of being able to cap armor in LA since armor seems to not do much when you are dead in 4 hits with either 1000 armor or 2000 armor.I prefer to let it at 1450 with 5 L/2H and use my jewel enchants for actually good stuff like extra magicka regen and reduced spell cost The whole mechanic of armor mitigation should be looked at. I am a Sword and Shield NB.
Armor Softcap is only 30% damage reduction for physical damage. Assume Spell resist is same. Its when you start pushing closer to Hardcap that the values mean something. 50% at hardcap.
Get the funny feeling people don't realize how good hardcap is for a character.Edited by Shaun98ca2 on June 11, 2014 9:53PM0 -
pecheckler✭✭✭✭✭I really wanted to be a dual wield templar using blood craze, degeneration, and red diamond with biting jabs and rapid strikes. Combined with a teammates siphon spirit one would logically think that it would be a great build. Too bad it completely blows.
Then I tried steel tornado, solar barrage, and crescent sweep. Nope that sucks too.
Than I spent 200,000 gold trying every combination of active and passive abilities with every weapon. They all sucked.
Only one that came close was 1h+shield using bash for damage and biting jabs, but the devs broke that.
Now i'm left with the only viable build left, The only build any templar uses.
7 light armor, inner light, volcanic rune, blazing spear, impulse, and elemental blockade.
End the tedious inventory management game.1 -
BBSooner✭✭✭✭✭
✭Imo the armor sets for dps and healing need to be homogenized ( light and medium). The 5 passives should be changed for each to fit in to the mold of "stat cost reduction, stat regen, increase main stat, increase crit with stat based abilities, increase damage of main stat". Move the other bonus' ( like better sneak) to the guilds (like the thieves guild) that apply.
Make the HA tree the only tree with mitigation, and have it follow the line of "increased health, health regen, armor, spell resist, and blocking".
As for the soft caps for mitigations the ideas involving adjusting the soft cap per piece of armor seems solid to me.0 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Imo the armor sets for dps and healing need to be homogenized ( light and medium). The 5 passives should be changed for each to fit in to the mold of "stat cost reduction, stat regen, increase main stat, increase crit with stat based abilities, increase damage of main stat". Move the other bonus' ( like better sneak) to the guilds (like the thieves guild) that apply.
Make the HA tree the only tree with mitigation, and have it follow the line of "increased health, health regen, armor, spell resist, and blocking".
As for the soft caps for mitigations the ideas involving adjusting the soft cap per piece of armor seems solid to me.
Then how would you play as a Light Armor or Medium Armor Tank???
That has to be viable still as that's part of the play as you want deal.2 -
hamon✭✭✭✭✭
✭So, do you guys even compare the different amounts of spell resist & armor you get with full light, medium & heavy?
Wtf is this? ok guys, we got DKs nerfed & sorc semi nerfed, lets find the next thing to cry about & get it nerfed?
instead of nerfing everything, propose things to bring the other armor types on par with light, instead of crying qq op nerf !!!!1!111!!!
i honestly thing they're fine as is, light gives magicka recovery, medium gives stam recovery, heavy gives hp recovery. Light gives bonus to spells, medium to weapons, heavy to survivability.
wtf is you guys problem? are you trying to run magicka based builds while you pump *** in stam? learn what different class abilities & weapon abilities are considered as, not all "spells" are spells ....
clearly you dont know how things actually work. soft caps mean that you reach the soft cap for armour easily in light armour with a boost from any number of shield type abilities.. this negates any advantage you have while wearing heavy armour..
if this wasnt the case and you could get a sizable reduction in damage thro mitigation over someone in light armour (as is usually the case in every other game) then there would be the trade off.. heavy armour = much harder to kill
light armour =more damage but easier to kill
sound familiar? ,, cos its what works in every other game MMO or RPG ive ever played in the last 20 years.
so perhaps you should learn about soft caps and mitigation before you go spouting nonsense.
Edited by hamon on June 11, 2014 10:09PM2 -
hamon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »Imo the armor sets for dps and healing need to be homogenized ( light and medium). The 5 passives should be changed for each to fit in to the mold of "stat cost reduction, stat regen, increase main stat, increase crit with stat based abilities, increase damage of main stat". Move the other bonus' ( like better sneak) to the guilds (like the thieves guild) that apply.
Make the HA tree the only tree with mitigation, and have it follow the line of "increased health, health regen, armor, spell resist, and blocking".
As for the soft caps for mitigations the ideas involving adjusting the soft cap per piece of armor seems solid to me.
Then how would you play as a Light Armor or Medium Armor Tank???
That has to be viable still as that's part of the play as you want deal.
that shouldnt be viable.. they said anyone could play tank or play as mage type... but that should be linked to armour..
light armour tanking should not be possible . medium armour has been made viable in other games through means like evasion tanking. but again that involves a serious trade off in damage to stack evasion.
any class should be able to tank in ESO but only while wearing heavy armour and using a sword and shield...
the fact you can tank as well using light armour is why everything else becomes useless
5 -
The softcap issue is indeed one to look at, but it isn't the elephant in the room. The synergies are causing an exponential unbalancing between builds to the point where you wouldn't imagine the number of robe wearing staff wielders you find on trials. It's laughable. While I'm not going to talk down to anyone, I will say that if you've not reached the end game content or seen it on someone elses machine - you just don't know how bad the imbalance is.
Having an armor template where each type gets the same (reduction, regeneration, critical) boosts based on what type it is would help - but there would still be the disparity in combat maneuvers requiring stamina pool alone, and class/staff skills being all magicka oriented. You'd have to begin balance all over again.
Nerfing light armor is an option, but the environment has been built around what the players are capable of.... while wearing robes and staves. While there is no quick/easy fix, it most certainly begins with massive boosts to medium/heavy armor line.1 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »Imo the armor sets for dps and healing need to be homogenized ( light and medium). The 5 passives should be changed for each to fit in to the mold of "stat cost reduction, stat regen, increase main stat, increase crit with stat based abilities, increase damage of main stat". Move the other bonus' ( like better sneak) to the guilds (like the thieves guild) that apply.
Make the HA tree the only tree with mitigation, and have it follow the line of "increased health, health regen, armor, spell resist, and blocking".
As for the soft caps for mitigations the ideas involving adjusting the soft cap per piece of armor seems solid to me.
Then how would you play as a Light Armor or Medium Armor Tank???
That has to be viable still as that's part of the play as you want deal.
that shouldnt be viable.. they said anyone could play tank or play as mage type... but that should be linked to armour..
light armour tanking should not be possible . medium armour has been made viable in other games through means like evasion tanking. but again that involves a serious trade off in damage to stack evasion.
any class should be able to tank in ESO but only while wearing heavy armour and using a sword and shield...
the fact you can tank as well using light armour is why everything else becomes useless
Light Armor not being able to tank is just an "old" way to look at MMOs. This one is looking to be different. Which is why they allow tanking in all Armors. Heavy armor allows a tank to survive better.
The fact you can tank wearing light armor has NOTHING to do with why everybody is wearing it. They are wearing light armor cause it makes Magicka builds better. Once Magicka and Stamina get balanced better then you will see a change in peoples trends. Melee's will wear Medium and Casters will Light, and anybody that wants better survival will wear Heavy. But once Magicka and Stamina are balanced choosing between Light and Heavy will make little different as the benefits to Light armor really aren't that great.3 -
hamon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »
it will be all equally crappy and boring.Yes.
To the OP
One other options would be to have only one single Armor Line but branched.Each branch suited to a play style mage/tank/light fighter/healer.For example mage branch would give bonuses to magicka heavy builds no matter the armor type but with slightly different effect depending on the armor type. A mage would not completely gimp himself by going Heavy but maybe not be as dps effective as a light armor one. The branches for the other archetypes should be well thought out in actually be usefull for such builds.
Also maybe all classes should have some form of passive that makes damage of class skills also be dependent on stamina and the cost be split or exchanged between the two resource.
Unfortunately I don't expect anything other than nerfs.
Well nerfs or not the thing to understand about armor is it shouldn't be role defining or pigeonhole your character in any way.
So with that being said you have to make sure you don't boost Heavy Armor to be the ONLY MUST HAVE to tank choice. Think about that NightBlade DPS that wants to wear medium but his group of friends need a tank. Instead of having to learn to wear all new gear, he just pushes his armor up to the soft cap and wields a 1hander and shield.
Same thing for say Heavy Armor you should be able to wear Heavy Armor without having to worry that your gimping yourself as a DPS or healer.
So in reality the passives have to "suck" as you so put it. To me the passives for all 3 look to be really well balanced the real current issue is the perception that Magicka builds are better than Stamina builds.
Currently there are certain things throwing the balance in the direction of Magicka but its NOT the gear.
you should need heavy armour and passives to tank.. that doesnt mean NB's couldnt do it but they should need to carry a suit of armour and spend some skill points in heavy to be able to... to me thats common sense.
on my templar i have all 3 armours at 50 and carry 2 full suits around with me , or i did untill it became obvious that heavy was useless in any role.
but while levelling i wore full light to heal dungeons etc. or full heavy to tank them.. thats how it should work..
its just silly to expect to change from dps to tank without needing to even change your armour or spend a few skill points in passives.. hell would you even be ok needing to shance your skill bar or would that be too much trouble?
1 -
Aimelin✭✭✭So, do you guys even compare the different amounts of spell resist & armor you get with full light, medium & heavy?
Wtf is this? ok guys, we got DKs nerfed & sorc semi nerfed, lets find the next thing to cry about & get it nerfed?
instead of nerfing everything, propose things to bring the other armor types on par with light, instead of crying qq op nerf !!!!1!111!!!
i honestly thing they're fine as is, light gives magicka recovery, medium gives stam recovery, heavy gives hp recovery. Light gives bonus to spells, medium to weapons, heavy to survivability.
wtf is you guys problem? are you trying to run magicka based builds while you pump *** in stam? learn what different class abilities & weapon abilities are considered as, not all "spells" are spells ....
clearly you dont know how things actually work. soft caps mean that you reach the soft cap for armour easily in light armour with a boost from any number of shield type abilities.. this negates any advantage you have while wearing heavy armour..
if this wasnt the case and you could get a sizable reduction in damage thro mitigation over someone in light armour (as is usually the case in every other game) then there would be the trade off.. heavy armour = much harder to kill
light armour =more damage but easier to kill
sound familiar? ,, cos its what works in every other game MMO or RPG ive ever played in the last 20 years.
so perhaps you should learn about soft caps and mitigation before you go spouting nonsense.
ok? not caus you played mmo's and rpgs for 20 years that every game should follow every other games way of functioning.
if i just wear light armor i barely overcharge my spell resist softcap (note, thats with a mix & match of purple/blue/green armor pieces) my armor gets to 800 ish give or take (as stated earlier above, softcaps), even with all 7 pieces upgraded to purple & even if i added the armor increase trait, i doubt i'll reach the 1900 softcap for armor.
now if i want more magicka regen, or spell dmg, or fire / poison resist, i wont have options to add armor or spell resist glyphs.
medium armor gets closer to both spell resist & armor softcap. heavy armor reaches both & beyond.
a friend of mine using heavy armor (7 pieces) equipped armor & spell resist glyphs and i can tell you you can't reach the amounts he got with light armor.
granted i can reach the softcap if i add glyphs in jewelry, but then im sacrificing magicka regen & other stuff.
and this is as a sorc btw. DKs get passives to increase spell resist, NBs get passives to increase armor & spell resist coming out of stealth, templars get passives for spell resist, and reduced ability cost for magicka, stamina & ultimate.
if you want to shout out nerf light armor, consider all the class synergies & *** with it.
oh, but i don't know how to play, or read, or test i guess...... 20 years experience def trumps my 15 years. stop expecting *** to work as any other copycat mmo out there. read, test, learn.
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Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »
it will be all equally crappy and boring.Yes.
To the OP
One other options would be to have only one single Armor Line but branched.Each branch suited to a play style mage/tank/light fighter/healer.For example mage branch would give bonuses to magicka heavy builds no matter the armor type but with slightly different effect depending on the armor type. A mage would not completely gimp himself by going Heavy but maybe not be as dps effective as a light armor one. The branches for the other archetypes should be well thought out in actually be usefull for such builds.
Also maybe all classes should have some form of passive that makes damage of class skills also be dependent on stamina and the cost be split or exchanged between the two resource.
Unfortunately I don't expect anything other than nerfs.
Well nerfs or not the thing to understand about armor is it shouldn't be role defining or pigeonhole your character in any way.
So with that being said you have to make sure you don't boost Heavy Armor to be the ONLY MUST HAVE to tank choice. Think about that NightBlade DPS that wants to wear medium but his group of friends need a tank. Instead of having to learn to wear all new gear, he just pushes his armor up to the soft cap and wields a 1hander and shield.
Same thing for say Heavy Armor you should be able to wear Heavy Armor without having to worry that your gimping yourself as a DPS or healer.
So in reality the passives have to "suck" as you so put it. To me the passives for all 3 look to be really well balanced the real current issue is the perception that Magicka builds are better than Stamina builds.
Currently there are certain things throwing the balance in the direction of Magicka but its NOT the gear.
you should need heavy armour and passives to tank.. that doesnt mean NB's couldnt do it but they should need to carry a suit of armour and spend some skill points in heavy to be able to... to me thats common sense.
on my templar i have all 3 armours at 50 and carry 2 full suits around with me , or i did untill it became obvious that heavy was useless in any role.
but while levelling i wore full light to heal dungeons etc. or full heavy to tank them.. thats how it should work..
its just silly to expect to change from dps to tank without needing to even change your armour or spend a few skill points in passives.. hell would you even be ok needing to shance your skill bar or would that be too much trouble?
Well disagree all you like, luckily the Developers took a different route with this game. Being able to Tank in any gear opens up opportunities for people to play how they want. Being a caster DPS and then being able to swap a few skill you can be a Tank. They even offer a ranged taunt that USES Magicka. But being a tank in Light Armor requires what I would say is a lot of effort on the players part to reach those soft caps wasting traits on armor.1 -
hamon✭✭✭✭✭
✭So, do you guys even compare the different amounts of spell resist & armor you get with full light, medium & heavy?
Wtf is this? ok guys, we got DKs nerfed & sorc semi nerfed, lets find the next thing to cry about & get it nerfed?
instead of nerfing everything, propose things to bring the other armor types on par with light, instead of crying qq op nerf !!!!1!111!!!
i honestly thing they're fine as is, light gives magicka recovery, medium gives stam recovery, heavy gives hp recovery. Light gives bonus to spells, medium to weapons, heavy to survivability.
wtf is you guys problem? are you trying to run magicka based builds while you pump *** in stam? learn what different class abilities & weapon abilities are considered as, not all "spells" are spells ....
clearly you dont know how things actually work. soft caps mean that you reach the soft cap for armour easily in light armour with a boost from any number of shield type abilities.. this negates any advantage you have while wearing heavy armour..
if this wasnt the case and you could get a sizable reduction in damage thro mitigation over someone in light armour (as is usually the case in every other game) then there would be the trade off.. heavy armour = much harder to kill
light armour =more damage but easier to kill
sound familiar? ,, cos its what works in every other game MMO or RPG ive ever played in the last 20 years.
so perhaps you should learn about soft caps and mitigation before you go spouting nonsense.
ok? not caus you played mmo's and rpgs for 20 years that every game should follow every other games way of functioning.
if i just wear light armor i barely overcharge my spell resist softcap (note, thats with a mix & match of purple/blue/green armor pieces) my armor gets to 800 ish give or take (as stated earlier above, softcaps), even with all 7 pieces upgraded to purple & even if i added the armor increase trait, i doubt i'll reach the 1900 softcap for armor.
now if i want more magicka regen, or spell dmg, or fire / poison resist, i wont have options to add armor or spell resist glyphs.
medium armor gets closer to both spell resist & armor softcap. heavy armor reaches both & beyond.
a friend of mine using heavy armor (7 pieces) equipped armor & spell resist glyphs and i can tell you you can't reach the amounts he got with light armor.
granted i can reach the softcap if i add glyphs in jewelry, but then im sacrificing magicka regen & other stuff.
and this is as a sorc btw. DKs get passives to increase spell resist, NBs get passives to increase armor & spell resist coming out of stealth, templars get passives for spell resist, and reduced ability cost for magicka, stamina & ultimate.
if you want to shout out nerf light armor, consider all the class synergies & *** with it.
oh, but i don't know how to play, or read, or test i guess...... 20 years experience def trumps my 15 years. stop expecting *** to work as any other copycat mmo out there. read, test, learn.
ok if you can read so well highlight the part in any of my posts where i ask for anything to be nerfed.... if you can i,ll accept you can actually read properly .. if not i would have to argue you just proved me right..... i,ll wait over here and give you time to find the sentence where i ask for a nerf in this thread......
1 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭So, do you guys even compare the different amounts of spell resist & armor you get with full light, medium & heavy?
Wtf is this? ok guys, we got DKs nerfed & sorc semi nerfed, lets find the next thing to cry about & get it nerfed?
instead of nerfing everything, propose things to bring the other armor types on par with light, instead of crying qq op nerf !!!!1!111!!!
i honestly thing they're fine as is, light gives magicka recovery, medium gives stam recovery, heavy gives hp recovery. Light gives bonus to spells, medium to weapons, heavy to survivability.
wtf is you guys problem? are you trying to run magicka based builds while you pump *** in stam? learn what different class abilities & weapon abilities are considered as, not all "spells" are spells ....
clearly you dont know how things actually work. soft caps mean that you reach the soft cap for armour easily in light armour with a boost from any number of shield type abilities.. this negates any advantage you have while wearing heavy armour..
if this wasnt the case and you could get a sizable reduction in damage thro mitigation over someone in light armour (as is usually the case in every other game) then there would be the trade off.. heavy armour = much harder to kill
light armour =more damage but easier to kill
sound familiar? ,, cos its what works in every other game MMO or RPG ive ever played in the last 20 years.
so perhaps you should learn about soft caps and mitigation before you go spouting nonsense.
ok? not caus you played mmo's and rpgs for 20 years that every game should follow every other games way of functioning.
if i just wear light armor i barely overcharge my spell resist softcap (note, thats with a mix & match of purple/blue/green armor pieces) my armor gets to 800 ish give or take (as stated earlier above, softcaps), even with all 7 pieces upgraded to purple & even if i added the armor increase trait, i doubt i'll reach the 1900 softcap for armor.
now if i want more magicka regen, or spell dmg, or fire / poison resist, i wont have options to add armor or spell resist glyphs.
medium armor gets closer to both spell resist & armor softcap. heavy armor reaches both & beyond.
a friend of mine using heavy armor (7 pieces) equipped armor & spell resist glyphs and i can tell you you can't reach the amounts he got with light armor.
granted i can reach the softcap if i add glyphs in jewelry, but then im sacrificing magicka regen & other stuff.
and this is as a sorc btw. DKs get passives to increase spell resist, NBs get passives to increase armor & spell resist coming out of stealth, templars get passives for spell resist, and reduced ability cost for magicka, stamina & ultimate.
if you want to shout out nerf light armor, consider all the class synergies & *** with it.
oh, but i don't know how to play, or read, or test i guess...... 20 years experience def trumps my 15 years. stop expecting *** to work as any other copycat mmo out there. read, test, learn.
ok if you can read so well highlight the part in any of my posts where i ask for anything to be nerfed.... if you can i,ll accept you can actually read properly .. if not i would have to argue you just proved me right..... i,ll wait over here and give you time to find the sentence where i ask for a nerf in this thread......
NERFED you went BEYOND NERFED you want the core functions of the game to simply change because you believe it should work differently IE not tanking in light armor any more.
That's a core function being able to do that. But its something a player has to work for it doesn't come easy and it comes at a much higher cost than if wearing Heavy Armor.0 -
Reykice✭✭✭✭✭if the OP is not smart enough to figure out that the Cost Reduction for casters is on the Armor while the one for melee/rangers is on the weapon then he should not make a thread....
Also... the crit chage Medium Armor gets... a light armor user uses a skill slot to get it.
People go on and on about armor without realizing that the only difference is the spell penetration and magic resistance... but then again Medium Armor gets something else more suited for a melee character...
Really, they should have a quick IQ test before the Poll option...0 -
hamon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »So, do you guys even compare the different amounts of spell resist & armor you get with full light, medium & heavy?
Wtf is this? ok guys, we got DKs nerfed & sorc semi nerfed, lets find the next thing to cry about & get it nerfed?
instead of nerfing everything, propose things to bring the other armor types on par with light, instead of crying qq op nerf !!!!1!111!!!
i honestly thing they're fine as is, light gives magicka recovery, medium gives stam recovery, heavy gives hp recovery. Light gives bonus to spells, medium to weapons, heavy to survivability.
wtf is you guys problem? are you trying to run magicka based builds while you pump *** in stam? learn what different class abilities & weapon abilities are considered as, not all "spells" are spells ....
clearly you dont know how things actually work. soft caps mean that you reach the soft cap for armour easily in light armour with a boost from any number of shield type abilities.. this negates any advantage you have while wearing heavy armour..
if this wasnt the case and you could get a sizable reduction in damage thro mitigation over someone in light armour (as is usually the case in every other game) then there would be the trade off.. heavy armour = much harder to kill
light armour =more damage but easier to kill
sound familiar? ,, cos its what works in every other game MMO or RPG ive ever played in the last 20 years.
so perhaps you should learn about soft caps and mitigation before you go spouting nonsense.
ok? not caus you played mmo's and rpgs for 20 years that every game should follow every other games way of functioning.
if i just wear light armor i barely overcharge my spell resist softcap (note, thats with a mix & match of purple/blue/green armor pieces) my armor gets to 800 ish give or take (as stated earlier above, softcaps), even with all 7 pieces upgraded to purple & even if i added the armor increase trait, i doubt i'll reach the 1900 softcap for armor.
now if i want more magicka regen, or spell dmg, or fire / poison resist, i wont have options to add armor or spell resist glyphs.
medium armor gets closer to both spell resist & armor softcap. heavy armor reaches both & beyond.
a friend of mine using heavy armor (7 pieces) equipped armor & spell resist glyphs and i can tell you you can't reach the amounts he got with light armor.
granted i can reach the softcap if i add glyphs in jewelry, but then im sacrificing magicka regen & other stuff.
and this is as a sorc btw. DKs get passives to increase spell resist, NBs get passives to increase armor & spell resist coming out of stealth, templars get passives for spell resist, and reduced ability cost for magicka, stamina & ultimate.
if you want to shout out nerf light armor, consider all the class synergies & *** with it.
oh, but i don't know how to play, or read, or test i guess...... 20 years experience def trumps my 15 years. stop expecting *** to work as any other copycat mmo out there. read, test, learn.
ok if you can read so well highlight the part in any of my posts where i ask for anything to be nerfed.... if you can i,ll accept you can actually read properly .. if not i would have to argue you just proved me right..... i,ll wait over here and give you time to find the sentence where i ask for a nerf in this thread......
NERFED you went BEYOND NERFED you want the core functions of the game to simply change because you believe it should work differently IE not tanking in light armor any more.
That's a core function being able to do that. But its something a player has to work for it doesn't come easy and it comes at a much higher cost than if wearing Heavy Armor.
really what amkes light armour tanking so hard? just stick immovable on your bar or one of the sorc or DK skills like magma armour etc.. bound armour and keep that up and bang your perma above the soft cap .
and your still in light and have all the nice benefits light gives..
and yes the core functions need to change.. cos right now the core functions are what utterly failing in the game... everyone using light armour and staffs all the time is a screaming sign of failure to give the other armours and weapons viabiliy..
and the anser isnt necessarily to nerf light armour ,, but BUFF the other armour trees to give them meaning
2 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hedonist_Jester wrote: »
There are really only three answers to this problem:
1. Light armor needs the cost reduction to magicka skills removed or squelched.
2. Light armor needs negatives to balance what positives come from it (negative HPs per piece worn, increased susceptibility to fire, etc)
3. Medium and Heavy armor need passives that would bring them into desirability to an equal level.
4. Make staff skills use Stamina like every other weapon skill.
Edited by ShedsHisTail on June 11, 2014 10:41PM"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
Reykice✭✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Hedonist_Jester wrote: »
There are really only three answers to this problem:
1. Light armor needs the cost reduction to magicka skills removed or squelched.
2. Light armor needs negatives to balance what positives come from it (negative HPs per piece worn, increased susceptibility to fire, etc)
3. Medium and Heavy armor need passives that would bring them into desirability to an equal level.
4. Make staff skills use Stamina like every other weapon skill.
And make every weapon skill and light/heavy attacks use magicka.0 -
alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »if the OP is not smart enough to figure out that the Cost Reduction for casters is on the Armor while the one for melee/rangers is on the weapon then he should not make a thread....
Also... the crit chage Medium Armor gets... a light armor user uses a skill slot to get it.
People go on and on about armor without realizing that the only difference is the spell penetration and magic resistance... but then again Medium Armor gets something else more suited for a melee character...
Really, they should have a quick IQ test before the Poll option...
Cost reductions on the weapon do not affect class skills and spells like the light armor ones do. The crit chance medium armor gets is paid for with skill points the same way Prodigy is - both passive - neither using the ability bar. There is far more difference between the armors than spell penetration and magic resistance, but I guess I should be chastised for thinking I can start a thread without people like you being allowed to comment.
By the way, this wasn't a poll.
0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Hedonist_Jester wrote: »
There are really only three answers to this problem:
1. Light armor needs the cost reduction to magicka skills removed or squelched.
2. Light armor needs negatives to balance what positives come from it (negative HPs per piece worn, increased susceptibility to fire, etc)
3. Medium and Heavy armor need passives that would bring them into desirability to an equal level.
4. Make staff skills use Stamina like every other weapon skill.
And make every weapon skill and light/heavy attacks use magicka.
No.
Why would you do that?
It serves no purpose."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0