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Do you consider ESO a next gen MMO?
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GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭No
Perhaps you do, but many others do not, thus the piece I wrote regarding interpretation.liquid_wolf wrote: »Next Gen implies something new... radical... a revelation.
I have to say that ESO is a combination of some of the best MMORPGs we've seen in the past five or six years.
But with the way Next Gen gets thrown around by developers... sure why not.
To be fair no one at ZOS ever mentioned next gen, but I remember a good letter from the devs to beta testers where they explained their vision and what they wanted to achieve and I wish they had reposted it as a sticky in this forum
"Play the way you want" may have been a self setup for failure on their part, since its so open to interpretation.
Yeah but I do play as I want.
Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"0 -
mutharex✭✭✭✭✭@steveb16_ESO46 every game is exploitable in a way or another. Either through hacking or simply through game mechanisms. Having a RMT system built in isn't the best idea. EVE does but EVE is a Full Loot game and moving PLEX from station to station can be risky
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driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Looks like everyone is just listing things they like/don't like or want added. Things previous games have done I might add, contradicted by the posters who point to anything in ESO that's been done before disqualifies it.
So one, what is the criteria for "Next Gen"?
Two, is being Next Gen good or bad? (New MMOs could all be crap for all I know.)
Main: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●1 -
AinGeal✭✭✭NoSo many people asking "what does next gen mean".
It's best to use examples...
Metal Gear for the Nintendo vs Metal Gear released on Playstation.
Super Mario for Nintendo vs Super Mario for Nintendo 64.
Two examples. These examples also show a change in hardware to go along with the change in software. With these particular games, the biggest jump is from 2D to 3D. It also offered a much greater degree of movement and control over the character.
Next Gen is about breaking the mould. It's about doing what hasn't/couldn't be done before. Instead of following a standard, it creates its own standard. Possible upcoming next gen concepts in the distant future would be AI, controlling the game with your mind, physics that simulate the real world almost perfectly. The biggest thing that is holding these three back is technology.
If quantum computers become a regular house hold item, they could handle an AI and real world physics. Using a mind link is being developed but it has its own major obstacle. Despite the fact that different areas of the brain being responsible for specific functions is common from person to person, the details are unique to the individual.
As far as ESO goes. Being an Elder Scrolls game it's fair to compare it to those games.
Graphics: ESO took a step backwards in this department.
Movement: In Skyrim, character movement was great. Between how the character moved and the kind of visual feedback you got, it felt like I was moving a grown man's weight. With ESO, it took a step back to the cheap twitchy movement that is typically seen.
AI: With each release of TES, the AI got better and better. So what happened with ESO? The NPCs don't even have a daily routine based on time of day. Instead they leaped backwards to the typical MMO static world.
Open World: Again ESO is a step backwards. With Skyrim, the only transition is going into ruins, mines, houses, cities, etc. but to transition between maps? And even then, Skyrim had the advantage of Mods. I used one that did away with all transitions (loading screens).
One concept of a next gen game, is one where players have a permanent impact on the game world. The game world is not static but rather dynamic and ever changing. Re-playability won't be an issue since starting over would mean experiencing a whole new game. End game content won't be much of an issue either. Since players have an impact, make a permanent difference, this sets the stage up automatically for new experiences.
This would take a whole new look at programing. A program that is capable of changing itself based on a good AI (an AI being able to interact and change the game world), and player interaction with it.2 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭NoYea. Every game is exploitable. Unfortunately ESO seemed to have been designed by and for botters. You need to make their life difficult and cut demand for their services from the off.
I'm heartened that one of the things the archeage alpha is testing is anti-hacking systems. What does cause concern is that there are areas where things respawn quickly enough to make bot-harvesting viable and that resource nodes spawn in fixed locations.
But what it doesn't have is easy gold giving quests or respawning bosses in public dungeons. And while more gold would always be good it wouldn't let me buy my way to the top. For that I will need to take risks and play the game.
But who knows. The gold sellers are well resourced and clever so i think you're right and they'll make problems if they see a profit.0 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoNo because what they did others have done before and in some cases better. Take phasing, FFXIV and XIV:ARR both did phasing way better and it wasnt bugged.1 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭So many people asking "what does next gen mean".
It's best to use examples...
Metal Gear for the Nintendo vs Metal Gear released on Playstation.
Super Mario for Nintendo vs Super Mario for Nintendo 64.
Two examples. These examples also show a change in hardware to go along with the change in software. With these particular games, the biggest jump is from 2D to 3D. It also offered a much greater degree of movement and control over the character.
Next Gen is about breaking the mould.
No the term Next Gen is solely about the hardware, it solely refers to the latest generation of consoles.
Consoles.
Not computers, it is meaningless in reference to a PC game. The nearest PCs have is Cutting edge.
Which ESO isn'tPeople believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule1 -
AinGeal✭✭✭NoAlexDougherty wrote: »So many people asking "what does next gen mean".
It's best to use examples...
Metal Gear for the Nintendo vs Metal Gear released on Playstation.
Super Mario for Nintendo vs Super Mario for Nintendo 64.
Two examples. These examples also show a change in hardware to go along with the change in software. With these particular games, the biggest jump is from 2D to 3D. It also offered a much greater degree of movement and control over the character.
Next Gen is about breaking the mould.
No the term Next Gen is solely about the hardware, it solely refers to the latest generation of consoles.
Consoles.
Not computers, it is meaningless in reference to a PC game. The nearest PCs have is Cutting edge.
Which ESO isn't
No the term "next gen" predates consoles. However, in the way it is used for consoles, in can be similarly used for PCs. An improvement in hardware. Next gen in CPUs, next gen in GPUs, next OS, next gen in hard drives (eg solid state), etc.
Yes, it can even be used to refer to software. Operating systems are an example.Edited by AinGeal on June 11, 2014 4:17PM0 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭No
Concur. But really do think the developers of ESO followed the design and leveling (zone) system of games like WoW too closely.AlexDougherty wrote: »No the term Next Gen is solely about the hardware, it solely refers to the latest generation of consoles.
Consoles.
Not computers, it is meaningless in reference to a PC game. The nearest PCs have is Cutting edge.
Which ESO isn't
IMO, they'd have done better following the open world mentality of Oblivion and Skyrim. IMO, it's about game design, vice graphics and hardware.
And for goodness-sake, they should never have forced solo-instancing, or forced grouping for that matter!Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"0 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AlexDougherty wrote: »So many people asking "what does next gen mean".
It's best to use examples...
Metal Gear for the Nintendo vs Metal Gear released on Playstation.
Super Mario for Nintendo vs Super Mario for Nintendo 64.
Two examples. These examples also show a change in hardware to go along with the change in software. With these particular games, the biggest jump is from 2D to 3D. It also offered a much greater degree of movement and control over the character.
Next Gen is about breaking the mould.
No the term Next Gen is solely about the hardware, it solely refers to the latest generation of consoles.
Consoles.
Not computers, it is meaningless in reference to a PC game. The nearest PCs have is Cutting edge.
Which ESO isn't
No the term "next gen" predates consoles.
Really, well since console have been around since the early eighties (Atari), it must be a pretty old term then.
But it still doesn't really apply to PCs, because you have multiple generations of PC playing alongside each other. Heck I didn't replace my Pentium processor computer until the i7s came along, and even then only because the hard-drive failed.People believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule0 -
vyrusb23✭✭✭✭✭No
I'm using the definition that involves adding something new, exciting, and revolutionary to MMOs. ESO is just a single player game with some multiplayer thrown in so they can say its an mmo. Any MMO that forces you to solo is actually going backwards. It actually reminds me of companies that release single player games that require an internet connection to play. Unbelievably stupid.
Next gen single player game? Maybe. Next gen MMO? LOL
Edited by vyrusb23 on June 11, 2014 4:17PM1 -
silent88b14_ESO✭✭✭No
Agreed. But here's the deal as I see it.nerevarine1138 wrote: »I don't even understand how we've gotten 2 pages of comments about whether the game is "next gen" without anyone being able to define what in Oblivion that's supposed to mean.
It can go a few ways depending on what Zenimax does and whether the players renew their subs. That is a very short window of opportunity if they want to make sensible changes.
If ESO is a great and shining success financially then the future is wide open and we can't predict a next gen yet because the fact is that we are still in this generation. If at the other end of the spectrum ESO fails to retain existing players and attract enough console players then we aren't going to see many more AAA MMO titles in the next generation. We'll see small ventures develop niche Moderately Multiplayer Games instead. Games like Wasteland2 and Pathfinder online. There will be a few massively multiplayer FPS like World of Tanks and Mechwarrior Online. But AAA MMO's? Everquest Next, Wildstar, and ESO are the make or break titles.
Next Generation massively multiplayer depend heavily on the success of ESO.
Other hand, Star Citizen may have a shot.
Edited by silent88b14_ESO on June 11, 2014 4:20PMBehold the great Oak. Just a little nut who stood his ground.0 -
driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@AinGeal For MMOs I meant. What is Next Gen in terms of MMOs?
Console examples are tied to the hardware. But PC games, which most MMOs are, have to run on multiple tiers.
Also Skyrim didn't innovate or break the mold. It's a nice upgrade visually, but the game mechanics were simplified and quests have little difference from how things were handled in Oblivion. ESO is doing something that hasn't been done in the series before, and that's make it mutiplyer.Edited by driosketch on June 11, 2014 4:22PMMain: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●0 -
AinGeal✭✭✭NoAlexDougherty wrote: »Really, well since console have been around since the early eighties (Atari), it must be a pretty old term then.
Lol. Wow, simply...wow.
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TheBull✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes*** yeah look at these two videos. This is WS (last gen) and ESO (next gen). I think it's pretty obvious ESO is far beyond the current generation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgsXEiMJxU&authuser=0
ESO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQr6lU4RsTg&authuser=0
WS
Now tell me ESO is not next gen.Edited by TheBull on June 11, 2014 4:23PMKilled by Sunshine 1vX How I see it.
Killed by Early Bright - Blood Flow - Magicka NB Build
Twitch - SunshineNB
Youtube - The Redguard2 -
vyrusb23✭✭✭✭✭Nodriosketch wrote: »@AinGeal For MMOs I meant. What is Next Gen in terms of MMOs?
Console examples are tied to the hardware. But PC games, which most MMOs are, have to run on multiple tiers.
Also Skyrim didn't innovate or break the mold. It's a nice upgrade visually, but the game mechanics were simplified and quests have little difference from how things were handled in Oblivion. ESO is doing something that hasn't been done in the series before, and that's make it mutiplyer.
It may be something new for the Elder Scrolls series, but ESO is actually a step backwards in terms of MMOs. Any MMO that forces soloing, even when you're in a team, is a terrible MMO.
As I stated before: Next gen single player game? Maybe. Next gen MMO? Laughable at best.
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driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@vyrusb23 but that's still just something you don't like about the game. It doesn't tell be what a Next Gen MMO is, or why it's good or bad to be one. By the definitions I've received, ESO could do several terrible things never done in MMOs before, and would still qualify as Next Gen because it was doing something new. It sounds more like people are treating the question as "Will ESO be the next Great MMO?"Main: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●1 -
mutharex✭✭✭✭✭
Perhaps you do, but many others do not, thus the piece I wrote regarding interpretation.liquid_wolf wrote: »Next Gen implies something new... radical... a revelation.
I have to say that ESO is a combination of some of the best MMORPGs we've seen in the past five or six years.
But with the way Next Gen gets thrown around by developers... sure why not.
To be fair no one at ZOS ever mentioned next gen, but I remember a good letter from the devs to beta testers where they explained their vision and what they wanted to achieve and I wish they had reposted it as a sticky in this forum
"Play the way you want" may have been a self setup for failure on their part, since its so open to interpretation.
Yeah but I do play as I want.
Yeah but if they don't it's just their choice, they have the tools but they rather play cookie cutter because it's 'faster'. No sympathy from me sorry, not about this type of issue because it's pretty much self inflicted
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mutharex✭✭✭✭✭Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »No because what they did others have done before and in some cases better. Take phasing, FFXIV and XIV:ARR both did phasing way better and it wasnt bugged.
As you mention both 1.0 and 2.0 allow me to roll on the floor laughin, because FFXIV (1.0) and "wasn't bugged" in the same sentence is ludicrous1 -
silent88b14_ESO✭✭✭No
By the same token I could argue that any MMO that forces grouping is a terrible game. The best and most cooperative system of team play doesn't happen in a group, but in solo dungeons where people play cooperatively, like independent people instead of one anothers' appendages.Any MMO that forces soloing, even when you're in a team, is a terrible MMO.
Cooperative independent play is far superior to codependent play.
Edited by silent88b14_ESO on June 11, 2014 4:45PMBehold the great Oak. Just a little nut who stood his ground.1 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭No
Perhaps you do, but many others do not, thus the piece I wrote regarding interpretation.liquid_wolf wrote: »Next Gen implies something new... radical... a revelation.
I have to say that ESO is a combination of some of the best MMORPGs we've seen in the past five or six years.
But with the way Next Gen gets thrown around by developers... sure why not.
To be fair no one at ZOS ever mentioned next gen, but I remember a good letter from the devs to beta testers where they explained their vision and what they wanted to achieve and I wish they had reposted it as a sticky in this forum
"Play the way you want" may have been a self setup for failure on their part, since its so open to interpretation.
Yeah but I do play as I want.
Yeah but if they don't it's just their choice, they have the tools but they rather play cookie cutter because it's 'faster'.
Right. "Play as you want" involves choice. So when a player cannot play in accordance with his or her preferred choice, then they cannot play as they want.
Not seeking sympathy. Simply asserting that the developers stating that players can "play as you want" was a setup for failure on their part.No sympathy from me sorry, not about this type of issue because it's pretty much self inflictedCrotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"0 -
mutharex✭✭✭✭✭
Perhaps you do, but many others do not, thus the piece I wrote regarding interpretation.liquid_wolf wrote: »Next Gen implies something new... radical... a revelation.
I have to say that ESO is a combination of some of the best MMORPGs we've seen in the past five or six years.
But with the way Next Gen gets thrown around by developers... sure why not.
To be fair no one at ZOS ever mentioned next gen, but I remember a good letter from the devs to beta testers where they explained their vision and what they wanted to achieve and I wish they had reposted it as a sticky in this forum
"Play the way you want" may have been a self setup for failure on their part, since its so open to interpretation.
Yeah but I do play as I want.
Yeah but if they don't it's just their choice, they have the tools but they rather play cookie cutter because it's 'faster'.
Right. "Play as you want" involves choice. So when a player cannot play in accordance with his or her preferred choice, then they cannot play as they want.
Not seeking sympathy. Simply asserting that the developers stating that players can "play as you want" was a setup for failure on their part.No sympathy from me sorry, not about this type of issue because it's pretty much self inflicted
And in what way they cannot play as they want?
I think you are arguing semantics here. Play as you want doesn't mean that any style will be equally as good or efficient. In WoW pre 'dumbization' I could use talent points from the 3 trees and make a build I LIKED but that wasn't the best around. The problem is that this game isn't really for traditional MMO players (traditional as in "I played wow for the last 7 years"), I never understood why they bought the game in the first place2 -
Ragnar_Lodbrok✭✭✭✭✭
✭NoRagnar_Lodbrok wrote: »No because what they did others have done before and in some cases better. Take phasing, FFXIV and XIV:ARR both did phasing way better and it wasnt bugged.
As you mention both 1.0 and 2.0 allow me to roll on the floor laughin, because FFXIV (1.0) and "wasn't bugged" in the same sentence is ludicrous
I was talking about phasing, and 1.0 wasnt bugged it just lacked any gameplay.1 -
vyrusb23✭✭✭✭✭No
I somewhat agree with you. No player should ever be forced to solo or team except in very special circumstances.silent88b14_ESO wrote: »
By the same token I could argue that any MMO that forces grouping is a terrible game. The best and most cooperative system of team play doesn't happen in a group, but in solo dungeons where people play cooperatively, like independent people instead of one anothers' appendages.Any MMO that forces soloing, even when you're in a team, is a terrible MMO.
Cooperative independent play is far superior to codependent play.
This is why I've been heavily advocating for a scalable instanced/mission system. Instances should scale to team size. Soloing? No problem, the mission/instance scales to accommodate one person. Teaming with one other person? No problem, the mission scales to accommodate two people. Have a full team? No problem the instance/mission scales to accommodate a full team. I would even introduce a sliding difficulty scale that could be set by the group leader. The loot and treasure would be directly affected by the difficulty that was set for the mission. I have to be clear here. I'm talking specifically about instanced missions. Open world missions I'm fine with. It is instanced missions that need to be reworked to accommodate teams.
Edited by vyrusb23 on June 11, 2014 4:54PM1 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭No
The forum is filled with such ways, but here are a few examples:And in what way they cannot play as they want?- Forced-solo instancing (main story, Fighters Guild, Mages Guild)
- Forced-grouping in veteran areas
- Being able to finish veteran content with a chosen class (i.e. something besides a character in a dress waving a stick, or a heavy-clad knight)
There are others, but I won't post them here.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"2 -
Chryos✭✭✭✭YesYes, because that is what it is. EQ1 and UO were the first, Wow up to the rest are so far the next roughly. Any of the MMOs that do all of the handholding and allow you to solo vs. making you have to group up are what I deem as 2nd generation (or the current next generation).If I am going to quote someone, it's going to be me.0 -
Lalai✭✭✭✭NoIt definitely doesn't feel anywhere near 15 years old.. but it also doesn't feel next gen either. 15 years old would mean ESO looks worse/has less features than pretty much every MMO save for Wildstar at release.. and it just doesn't. In fact, I prefer the look and feel of ESO to Wildstar, which is one of the main reasons I am still here and not playing Wildstar.
Wildstar also doesn't feel like it really brings anything brand new to the table (which, considering it's the only other recently released MMO, I assume you're talking about when comparing). At least it didn't when I played it in beta. So I'm not really sure what a "next gen MMO" would actually be.
Also to any saying Wildstar isn't riddled with bugs.. LOL. Their forums have a ton.. some of which are definitely game breaking for the people that run into them.. who ironically, go post on the forums. Kinda like another game I played recently, where if you say you don't run into tons of bugs people call you a liar on the forums.Edited by Lalai on June 11, 2014 5:00PMFisher extraordinaire!
Send me your worms, crawlers, guts, and insect parts.
Templar Healer
Daggerfall Covenant, NA1 -
AinGeal✭✭✭NoAnd in what way they cannot play as they want?
I think you are arguing semantics here. Play as you want doesn't mean that any style will be equally as good or efficient. In WoW pre 'dumbization' I could use talent points from the 3 trees and make a build I LIKED but that wasn't the best around. The problem is that this game isn't really for traditional MMO players (traditional as in "I played wow for the last 7 years"), I never understood why they bought the game in the first place
The forced solo. I've been able to solo the solo-only instances on one of the most gimped class/gear combinations (NB w/ MA + DW) so it certainly is a L2P issue if they can't do it solo.
Regardless, it's still forces solo play in a game that was suppose to be about playing how you want to play. If they want to do it with a group, they should be able to. However, that concept is a two way street. Most "dungeons" are public dungeons. They have content that is solo-able but there is no choice to entering these without others showing up.
They want the option to enter the current solo only instances with a party at current difficulty (so those who wish to, can still solo it). I want the current public dungeons to give me the choice to enter them privately.
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GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭No
Well good for you, but others don't want to play solo.The forced solo. I've been able to solo the solo-only instances on one of the most gimped class/gear combinations (NB w/ MA + DW) so it certainly is a L2P issue if they can't do it solo.
And that's the bottom-line.Regardless, it's still forces solo play in a game that was suppose to be about playing how you want to play. If they want to do it with a group, they should be able to.Edited by GreySix on June 11, 2014 5:02PMCrotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"0
